What is a URM and am I one?

[DermViser]

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Yes, I will consult emperor of minority thoughts, SCOTUS Thomas, thanks!

Anyways, good luck OP, there's a lot of fall out over a policy in-stated to fix systematic discrimination. I don't want to hi-jack the thread anymore than it's already gone.

While no "emperor on minority thoughts" as maybe Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson are, it just proves that affirmative action ends up hurting those it proclaims to help, even those such as yourself who do match the matriculation statistics, and sometimes even abused by being taken advantage by those it was not meant to help, as stated in the article.

http://www.good.is/posts/ivy-league-fooled-how-america-s-top-colleges-avoid-real-diversity

“Very few black students [at Harvard] were able to be categorized under the term ‘just black,’” says Joy Alison Cooper. Cooper graduated from Harvard in 2006 and is now a Fogarty Scholar doing clinical research in Nairobi, Kenya. “There was an overrepresentation of Africans,” she says, “and specifically Nigerians. Nigerians were so numerous that in my senior year, my best friend helped start the Nigerian Students Association.”
...
It’s easy to chalk these numbers up to the myth that immigrants work harder than native blacks, but studies say that’s wrong. According to the aforementioned sociological research from 2009, immigrant students don’t value education more than native blacks or perform significantly better academically. Rather, they have the financial resources required to get a leg-up into the highest echelons of academia.

“When we compare immigrant blacks to African Americans from similar family socioeconomic backgrounds, we find no significant differences between them in their chances of attending college,” says Pamela Bennett, one of the study’s authors and an assistant professor at Johns Hopkins. “Our findings indicate that [African immigrants] have greater resources, in the form of family structure and private school attendance, that are universally helpful in providing opportunities to go to college.” (“Family structure” means that African immigrants are less likely to live in single-parent households than native blacks.)

 

[baconshrimps]

Reminds me of that Southpark episode...

?

 

[baconshrimps]

I'm just going to come out and say it - this whole "family structure" and "earlier access to resources" has been hashed out over and over again. I lived in a single parent home and went to ****ty public schools. I wanted a better life for myself and my family some day, so I avoided falling in with the wrong crowds, worked ever since I was 14, cut off ties and made a lot of sacrifices, and I am now climbing the ladder into a higher socioeconomic class. I never felt owed anything by the middle or upper class, and I sure as hell will not owe anyone a damn thing when I get up there. Social classes suck, but it's the fairest order. You can't pick your parents or your family circumstances, but if you want it badly enough you can build a better life for yourself. So let's cut out all of this nonsense we ultimately cannot control and focus on what you can control - get a vice grip on that and you can go as far as you want.

rops mic:

 

[ChemEngMD]

I'm just going to come out and say it - this whole "family structure" and "earlier access to resources" has been hashed out over and over again. I lived in a single parent home and went to ****** public schools. I wanted a better life for myself and my family some day, so I avoided falling in with the wrong crowds, worked ever since I was 14, cut off ties and made a lot of sacrifices, and I am now climbing the ladder into a higher socioeconomic class. I never felt owed anything by the middle or upper class, and I sure as hell will not owe anyone a damn thing when I get up there. Social classes suck, but it's the fairest order. You can't pick your parents or your family circumstances, but if you want it badly enough you can build a better life for yourself. So let's cut out all of this nonsense we ultimately cannot control and focus on what you can control - get a vice grip on that and you can go as far as you want.

rops mic:

Ron Paul 2016!

 

[ruedjgtc]

I'm just going to come out and say it - this whole "family structure" and "earlier access to resources" has been hashed out over and over again. I lived in a single parent home and went to ****** public schools. I wanted a better life for myself and my family some day, so I avoided falling in with the wrong crowds, worked ever since I was 14, cut off ties and made a lot of sacrifices, and I am now climbing the ladder into a higher socioeconomic class. I never felt owed anything by the middle or upper class, and I sure as hell will not owe anyone a damn thing when I get up there. Social classes suck, but it's the fairest order. You can't pick your parents or your family circumstances, but if you want it badly enough you can build a better life for yourself. So let's cut out all of this nonsense we ultimately cannot control and focus on what you can control - get a vice grip on that and you can go as far as you want.

rops mic:

Same, I was 1 of 14 (18 if you count step relations), I avoided falling into the wrong crowd, have family members who went to jail while I didn't. Instead of just taking the premed courses I tutored them at my university and Stanford's Organic Chemistry tutoring program, published, presented research, I even have two jobs. Lots of other things I suppose. At the same time, I worked with at risk students and prisoners for education, so I know about access and resources. I mean, I tutored high school kids who couldn't do multiplication (1x2, literally), nor could their parents. So, I'm not sure if I'm exactly sold on the we all have an equal change boat -- though, yes some of us make it out just fine.

Hands mic to OP haha.

 

[baconshrimps]

Ron Paul 2016!

Yeah I don't follow politics so this is lost on me entirely.

 

[crimsonkid85]

I'm just going to come out and say it - this whole "family structure" and "earlier access to resources" has been hashed out over and over again. I lived in a single parent home and went to ****** public schools. I wanted a better life for myself and my family some day, so I avoided falling in with the wrong crowds, worked ever since I was 14, cut off ties and made a lot of sacrifices, and I am now climbing the ladder into a higher socioeconomic class. I never felt owed anything by the middle or upper class, and I sure as hell will not owe anyone a damn thing when I get up there. Social classes suck, but it's the fairest order. You can't pick your parents or your family circumstances, but if you want it badly enough you can build a better life for yourself. So let's cut out all of this nonsense we ultimately cannot control and focus on what you can control - get a vice grip on that and you can go as far as you want.

rops mic:

preach it!

 

[DermViser]

I'm just going to come out and say it - this whole "family structure" and "earlier access to resources" has been hashed out over and over again. I lived in a single parent home and went to ****** public schools. I wanted a better life for myself and my family some day, so I avoided falling in with the wrong crowds, worked ever since I was 14, cut off ties and made a lot of sacrifices, and I am now climbing the ladder into a higher socioeconomic class. I never felt owed anything by the middle or upper class, and I sure as hell will not owe anyone a damn thing when I get up there. Social classes suck, but it's the fairest order. You can't pick your parents or your family circumstances, but if you want it badly enough you can build a better life for yourself. So let's cut out all of this nonsense we ultimately cannot control and focus on what you can control - get a vice grip on that and you can go as far as you want.

rops mic:

I don't think it's just "family structure" and "earlier access to resources" alone.

As the article states:

Call it the Ivy League’s dirty little secret: While America’s most elite colleges do in fact make it a point to promote ethnic diversity on their campuses, a lot of them do so by admitting hugely disproportionate numbers of wealthy immigrants and their children rather than black students with deep roots—and troubled histories—in the United States.

None of this would matter if black Americans and their immigrant counterparts were gunning for the Ivies from a level playing field. But they’re not. Data shows that African immigrants, Nigerians in particular, are far wealthier and more highly educated than many Americans of any race.

So in other words, affirmative action is helping the wrong "black" person, if that makes sense.

 

[baconshrimps]

I don't think it's just "family structure" and "earlier access to resources" alone.

As the article states:

Call it the Ivy League’s dirty little secret: While America’s most elite colleges do in fact make it a point to promote ethnic diversity on their campuses, a lot of them do so by admitting hugely disproportionate numbers of wealthy immigrants and their children rather than black students with deep roots—and troubled histories—in the United States.

None of this would matter if black Americans and their immigrant counterparts were gunning for the Ivies from a level playing field. But they’re not. Data shows that African immigrants, Nigerians in particular, are far wealthier and more highly educated than many Americans of any race.

So in other words, affirmative action is helping the wrong "black" person, if that makes sense.

Bro I'm white.

 

[DermViser]

Bro I'm white.

I'm not referring to you personally. I'm saying that affirmative action which is currently race-based, is not actually helping those whom it was meant to help, Black Americans vs. those of African descent.

 

[baconshrimps]

And what I am saying, despite that being the case (I don't know how much trust I engender in one article alone), it is not as if pointing a finger at "we don't have access to resources early enough or in frequency enough" is moot, because people are able to climb the social ladder. It takes ALOT of work to pull yourself out of a low socioeconomic standing into a higher one, but that is not to say it cannot be done. The people who aren't able to, probably wouldn't a amount to very much even if they had been born into a middle class family - there are deadbeat unaccomplished losers in all social classes.

 

[crimsonkid85]

And what I am saying, despite that being the case (I don't know how much trust I engender in one article alone), it is not as if pointing a finger at "we don't have access to resources early enough or in frequency enough" is moot, because people are able to climb the social ladder. It takes ALOT of work to pull yourself out of a low socioeconomic standing into a higher one, but that is not to say it cannot be done. The people who aren't able to, probably wouldn't a amount to very much even if they had been born into a middle class family - there are deadbeat unaccomplished losers in all social classes.

yea but what do you call a deadbeat unaccomplished loser from a rich family? chairman of the board....

 

[baconshrimps]

yea but what do you call a deadbeat unaccomplished loser from a rich family? chairman of the board....

Stop watching Arrested Development.
Chances are that kids parents or their grandparents worked very hard to build up a company, and chances are if an idiot is placed in charge the company gets run into the ground, and they lose all of the opportunities that were put in place for them by the work of their ancestors.
Maybe, just maybe, lets be realistic and talk about the majority of the population. Kaythanks.

 

[touchpause13]

Do you guys need to talk out your feels?

 

[BlackBox]

East Africans appear "Black" to a layman. Most White Americans wouldn't be able to distinguish the difference, but if you have East African friends you can spot them from a mile away.

Culturally, many Africans don't consider themselves "Black" because the connotation in the US is that Black = descendant of slaves and is usually associated with a lot of negative stereotypes (perpetuated by American and international media). So when you say "you're Black" to someone from Africa they'll likely be like no I'm Nigerian, Kenyan, Eritrean, Somalian, etc (especially if they are directly from Africa or are 1st generation) despite the darkness of their skin.

This is why many universities have African Student Associations and Black Student Associations separately. Of course, there will be some students who will properly identify with both, but the mentality I've most run into is that African students, despite being viewed by most non-Black students as Black (i.e. African-American), will always claim specific nationality first.

As someone stated, there is a lot of genetic diversity in Africa and also a lot of racism among different African ethnicities. Go tell an East African he looks Bantu or Sudanese and see the response you get.

When they get to the US though - everyone is thrown under the same umbrella as Black and some people don't get that or have a hard time accepting and identifying with that term (for the aforementioned reasons).

This is really a great post. However, do you think the OP is asking b/c he/she is having a cultural identification problem, or is simply looking to know which box to check to gain an "edge?"

 

[gookies]

.

 

[crimsonkid85]

Stop watching Arrested Development.
Chances are that kids parents or their grandparents worked very hard to build up a company, and chances are if an idiot is placed in charge the company gets run into the ground, and they lose all of the opportunities that were put in place for them by the work of their ancestors.
Maybe, just maybe, lets be realistic and talk about the majority of the population. Kaythanks.

actually i was thinking more a la game of thrones, cause we all know what's gonna happy to joffrey..... ;D

but seriously, they don't have to run the company into the ground, they can just coast for a long time.

but as for the original post -- eh you know how i see it? let them have their affirmative action or whatever. think about it. Would you rather be black to have the affirmative action 'advantage?'

yeah, didn't think so.

 

[gookies]

.

 

[DermViser]

This is really a great post. However, do you think the OP is asking b/c he/she is having a cultural identification problem, or is simply looking to know which box to check to gain an "edge?"

Most likely it's for which box to check to gain an edge, I doubt it's due to any personal angst.

If so, it's the greatest of coincidences that ALL OF A SUDDEN so many premeds are having cultural identity issues (which just so happens to be around the time they have to submit their apps to medical schools). The data released by the AAMC is quite clear regarding the benefit and huge leeway given, when you check the right box.

 

[crimsonkid85]

Go tell an East African he looks Bantu or Sudanese and see the response you get.

Haha, I was just thinking the same thing re: Asians. Try telling an East Asian he looks SE asian ....

 

[Dynam0]

This thread blew up much quicker than I expected at all.

Have you considered yourself black for your entire life? If the answer is no, you are not urm

I think this is a moot question. It doesn't matter what I or anyone else consider themselves, rather what society sees you as. My life experiences thus far tell me that society sees me as a black person. OTOH, I have never considered myself anything else.

While I understand and appreciate the fact that there is way more genetic diversity between West Africans and East Africans than there is between all Europeans, the classification of URM applicants is based on a Euro-centric view of race. You have every right to mark yourself as black/African, but if you are uncomfortable with that classification you have every right not to designate yourself so. Best of luck!

Thank you, this is my main concern. Other than my hair (which is the only possible justification for saying I don't "look" black), I've seen plenty of black Americans who look very similar to me. I'll probably just shave my head for the interview and quickly brush off any attempts to question my URM status if it ever comes up (unlikely).

lol @ all the clowns thinking an Eritrean isn't black...

Dude you're clearly URM...you don't have to be of West African descent

I am good friends with 1 Eritrean and 2 Ethiopians and in NO part of the United States of America are they considered anything other than black

My thoughts exactly. The sheer amount of ignorance in this thread is astounding. East Africans look nothing like North Africans, anyone who thinks otherwise should not be given the ability to practice medicine.

 

[crimsonkid85]

East Africans look nothing like North Africans, anyone who thinks otherwise should not be given the ability to practice medicine.

thank god you're not in charge of obamacare since you would single handedly obviate 99% of all physicians in america lololol

 

[Dynam0]

thank god you're not in charge of obamacare since you would single handedly obviate 99% of all physicians in america lololol

There's a difference between a person not knowing what an East African or North African look like, and knowing what both look like and claiming they look similar. The latter has bigger problems to deal with than getting into medical school.

 

[crimsonkid85]

There's a difference between a person not knowing what an East African or North African look like, and knowing what both look like and claiming they look similar. The latter has bigger problems to deal with than getting into medical school.

lol ok i was beginning to fear for my degree <33333

 

[baconshrimps]

Thankfully, I've already convinced 5 ADCOMS that I'm suited for the practice of medicine, and my career fate doesn't hang in the ballots with some kid who is more than likely trying to game the system to get into medical school.

Dude seriously, if you had to question whether or not you're black, you're gaming the system. You've even gone so far as to state "As for getting in, I'm not really looking to get into A MD school, but rather the top MD schools. At such schools, I'm wondering if the URM designation combined with my application would give me an edge?"

I'm not going to a top school. I've picked my MD program based on location. If I gamed the system and said I was a pacific islander (as I was born in the pacific islands, but I'm white - just using your logic, you know, because my whole life I've considered myself to be white - but I tan easily so people could mistake me for a pacific islander, you know?) maybe I would have gotten into a top program.

 

[crimsonkid85]

Thankfully, I've already convinced 5 ADCOMS that I'm suited for the practice of medicine, and my career fate doesn't hang in the ballots with some kid who is more than likely trying to game the system to get into medical school.

Dude seriously, if you had to question whether or not you're black, you're gaming the system. You've even gone so far as to state "As for getting in, I'm not really looking to get into A MD school, but rather the top MD schools. At such schools, I'm wondering if the URM designation combined with my application would give me an edge?"

I'm not going to a top school. I've picked my MD program based on location. If I gamed the system and said I was a pacific islander (as I was born in the pacific islands, but I'm white - just using your logic, you know, because my whole life I've considered myself to be white - but I tan easily so people could mistake me for a pacific islander, you know?) maybe I would have gotten into a top program.

dude. why are you not going back to hawaii.

do you know how competitive matching prelim year into hawaii is!?!?!?!?!?

 

[baconshrimps]

dude. why are you not going back to hawaii.

do you know how competitive matching prelim year into hawaii is!?!?!?!?!?

Wasn't a fan of Warrior Football.

 

[crimsonkid85]

Wasn't a fan of Warrior Football.

i can already picture it. academic position in dermatology studying melanoma in hawaii.

siiiiiiiiigh.....bliss.

 

[Dynam0]

I'm not going to a top school. I've picked my MD program based on location. If I gamed the system and said I was a pacific islander (as I was born in the pacific islands, but I'm white - just using your logic, you know, because my whole life I've considered myself to be white - but I tan easily so people could mistake me for a pacific islander, you know?) maybe I would have gotten into a top program.

And where, exactly, did I say I have never considered myself black and am only trying to do that for this application? For the record, there's a strong difference between being black and black American. One is a race, the other is an ethnicity.

Also, the fact you think that being white and looking like a pacific islander is comparable to me being black is really quite laughable at best.

 

[baconshrimps]

When your physician colleagues see you in the conference room, they are not going to say "oh look, it's a Ugandan-American" or "hey, an Sudanese-American" has joined our staff. They will just say "Oh, Dr. Semmpa? He's the black guy that just joined our group right?" SORRY, that's how society works. It is very visual, little anything else. I'm exiting the thread, peace out hombres.

 

[DokterMom]

Haha, I was just thinking the same thing re: Asians. Try telling an East Asian he looks SE asian ....

Once upon a time, I thought my Chinese-American boyfriend was Korean-American (because of his last name). He was not amused.

 

[gookies]

.

 

[crimsonkid85]

Once upon a time, I thought my Chinese-American boyfriend was Korean-American (because of his last name). He was not amused.

well that takes a higher level of finesse that i wouldn't expect anyone other than another east asian to know, really. you are vindicated in my eyes 🙂

 

[baconshrimps]

And where, exactly, did I say I have never considered myself black and am only trying to do that for this application? For the record, there's a strong difference between being black and black American. One is a race, the other is an ethnicity.

Also, the fact you think that being white and looking like a pacific islander is comparable to me being black is quite laughable at best and says a lot about you, IMO.

I am not saying that reflects my opinion.
I was just using the same logic you were using - "I don't look black, but I'm from Africa." Likewise, "I don't look like a pacific Islander, but that's where I was born."
Pick one story, stick to it, stop being a fool.
BaconShrimps out.

 

[albinopenguin]

OP wants to go to a top school...not just any med school

RE: baconshrimps clearly the subtleties of the world at large are lost on you...OP knows they're black in America but sees the vast majority of those checking this box as descendents of those taken here against their free will (generally meant to be West Africans vs. East Africans)...

Oddly West Africa is closer to the New World, West Africans tend to be darker than many groups in East Africa - might explain why African-Americans tend to be darker than an Eritrean who isn't as versed on American socio-political history

Filipinos and Japanese don't look very similar either but they're both asian...

good luck OP think you know what you're doing

 

[albinopenguin]

"I don't look black, but I'm from Africa."

Black as in the African-American context...I see OP's mild confusion as an immigrant...

regardless shouldn't we all be using every advantage we have in this process? I'm 1/2 hispanic - clearly I shouldn't mention that in my application according to some of you b/c then I'd be gaming the system? WTF logic is that except from those pissed at the perceived uneven playing field. Life isn't fair or equal...welcome to it!

 

[baconshrimps]

Black as in the African-American context...I see OP's mild confusion as an immigrant...

regardless shouldn't we all be using every advantage we have in this process? I'm 1/2 hispanic - clearly I shouldn't mention that in my application according to some of you b/c then I'd be gaming the system? WTF logic is that except from those pissed at the perceived uneven playing field. Life isn't fair or equal...welcome to it!

There is a difference between providing honest information about who you are, and gaming the system. I have a hispanic relative, very far back in my lineage. I don't identify as hispanic, but if I wanted to game the system, I would have put hispanic on my application and it would not be an inaccurate claim on my part. That is called gaming the system. Obviously if you identify as such, you should put that you are latino on your application, noone is contesting that. Seriously, lets stop making false-analogy arguments here people. Also, if you think I care, go read this.

 

[touchpause13]

All I can think during this thread is, if your from Africa then why are you white?

 

[Life Sucks]

All I can think during this thread is, if your from Africa then why are you white?

Afrikaner?

 

[touchpause13]

*headdesk* do you even go here?

 

[knv2u]

All I can think during this thread is, if your from Africa then why are you white?

There are caucasians in Africa.

 

[sourdoughllama]

are we moving the party to this thread? @knv2u

 

[Drosophila1]

I have arrived hello

 

[Drosophila1]

There are caucasians in Africa.

Yes. They are on vacation.

 

[terp720]

There are caucasians in Africa.

Afrikaner?

I think you missed the reference..

 

[touchpause13]

 

[knv2u]

are we moving the party to this thread? @knv2u

No. I see that when you point to statistics that support your point of view (i.e. that ignoring SES when considering URM status actually hurts people based on underrepresentation by admission numbers), people ignore them and make emotional arguments and make everything an ad hominem attack rather than having an intellectual conversation. Too bad the future generation of physicians, or at least a sizable fraction thereof, are pretty closed minded individuals.

Moreover, I am going to respect SDN's moderators.

 

[kingjameslbj]

There are caucasians in Africa.

um pretty sure he was being sarcastic in regards to the ignorance

 

[knv2u]

I think you missed the reference..

+1 and @touchpause13

Yes, I did.

 

[touchpause13]

It's alright love. I'm not mad at you. I understand things get overly heated around here sometimes and I can get more than I little ticked off as well.