What is "average" research experience for top schools?

[buckoh24]

---

Members don't see this ad.

So I am reapplying and last application cycle I had 0 research (also some other problems in my app that I addressed). I did not do research in undergrad as I was pretty uninformed about the application process and thought a very small amount of people did research. I have been working full time as a clinical research assistant and had about 1600 hours and a projected 2000 on my AMCAS. I was talking to a friend who goes to a T20 school that Im applying to and told him I may not because my stats are below avg for them and that I felt my research was average for those schools who emphasize research. He said that I have way more research than he did and a lot of people that he knows at his school. I am also co author on an abstract to be presented (by my PI) at an international conference next weekend and will probably add 2-4 more abstracts over the year (my PI is trying to help me out when residency rolls around because all this gap year research will count for that app also). Im curious as to what "average" is in terms of research hours and pubs/abstracts/etc for these T20 (or even T40) schools and if my research experience will help despite my lower end stats.

 

[Biochemistry69]

What are your stats/EC's? And are you sure that your undergraduate/gap year research counts for residency applications?

 

[LizzyM]

Being a clinical research coordinator will not be a substitute for grades and scores in the admissions process of the top 20. It's the icing on the cupcake and you don't have a nice cupcake without icing but you also don't have a nice cupcake if the cake doesn't rise high enough.

 

[buckoh24]

Being a clinical research coordinator will not be a substitute for grades and scores in the admissions process of the top 20. It's the icing on the cupcake and you don't have a nice cupcake without icing but you also don't have a nice cupcake if the cake doesn't rise high enough.

My stats are 10%< for accepted students at this school (above 25% at some) and I hope my upward trend/reinvention story will come into play a little bit. Im def not the gunning for a top school and applying exclusively there but I have like 3-5 T25 schools that I threw in there for various reasons. I was just curious what was considered "strong" research. My ECs are very targeted and in line with my long term mission that im very passionate about but I think ultimately my lower than avg stats would be the main concern at these schools.

 

[buckoh24]

When you ask what is the average research, that can mean alot of things:
-I would assume 90+% at top schools have research
-majority if that is likely bench/wet research in biomedical areas
-How much research they have is subjective as in how many hours, how many labs, what is the depth of the work. Just in hours it probably 300-500 range
-My ROT for all UG research: less than 25% have ANY sort of publication, abstract, poster or presentation, this includes campus level conference (eg USC UG Research Symposium). Certainly less than 5% have their name on any “major” publication (ie peered reviewed journal).
-so if you will have multiple abstracts at the time of application submission at a “major” conference, you will be in the 15% to 5% range of applicants.

Now that I said all that, it is likely almost meaningless to your application.
-applicants put far too much weight into research when volunteering both clinical and non clinical are much more important
-why are you focusing on T20 schools when applicants need to apply broadly within the range GPA, MCAT, school mission and the overall critical eval of your application.
-why are you considering to apply BEFORE you have the hours and potential abstracts completed?
-most of all, if you applied last cycle, why are you apply in the immediate following cycle?

according to multiple medical schools the most common mistake among reapplicants is applying again too soon

Should I do a Masters in my gap year / WAMC / advice please


University of Miami Miller School of Medicine
Reapplicants - Miller School of Medicine Admissions
Roughly 20% of the students who apply to the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine in any given year are reapplicants. Data that we have collected indicate they have a lower acceptance rate than do first time applicants

University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Heath
http://www.med.wisc.edu/education/md/admissions/reapplying/31716
(emphasis in the original)
There should be significant improvements in your application before reapplying. This might mean not reapplying the very next year. The most common error made by reapplicants is that they submit their next application too soon.

The Ohio State University College of Medicine
The Ohio State University College of Medicine - Tips & Advice
To maximize the chances of giving off this perception, you must allow enough time before reapplying. This will undoubtedly be the hardest part of the process, but be patient; if you rush it, you may join the ranks of those who are applying for a third time.

University of Minnesota Medical School
Re-Applicant
Though you can submit a second application immediately after your first application, you may want to consider waiting a year if you feel you need more experiences that help you demonstrate the essential and desired qualities of an ideal medical student.

University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Reapplicants — admit
Our Ideal Candidate — admit

Virginia Tech Carilion School of Medicine
http://medicine.vtc.vt.edu/admissions/re-applicants/

LSU Health Shreveport
Re-Applicants

University of Missouri
http://medicine.missouri.edu/admissions/nontraditional.html

East Carolina University, Brody School of Medicine
whatif

Texas College of Osteopathic Medicine (UNTHSC)
https://www.unthsc.edu/texas-colleg...ants-home/common-mistakes-made-by-applicants/

Michigan State University College of Osteopathic Medicine
http://www.com.msu.edu/Admissions/Guidelines_For_Success/Reapplication.htm

I already have the abstract and the past 1600 hours. I applied last cycle thinking "oh Ill just send them updates that Im doing this stuff and they will take that into major consideration" which wasnt the case. And I worked on my activities over the cycle so I would have something to update them about so over the cycle I did: 1600 hours of research+1 abstract, 150 clinical volunteer hours (so 350 total), 130 non clinical volunteer hours, 60 shadowing hours. I had consultations with a couple of schools and they thought because I hit on all of my weak points over my gap year that I could reapply this cycle. Im def applying to more than the T20 schools (only about 3 out of my list of 35) but I was surprised when talking to my friend because I assumed most people at the T20s would have way more than me so he thought I should still apply to his school (still iffy because Im shooting more for schools where my stats are closer to the avg).

 

[B4y 4RE4 N4Tiv3]

Being a clinical research coordinator will not be a substitute for grades and scores in the admissions process of the top 20. It's the icing on the cupcake and you don't have a nice cupcake without icing but you also don't have a nice cupcake if the cake doesn't rise high enough.

what's going on here 🤣

 

[boogiecousins94]

What is your GPA/MCAT or LizzyM score? I was accepted this cycle at one school ~ top 50 MD and on my application at the time I had 3000 hours of research with 1 first author pub, 1 second author pub, 2 national abstracts and one international abstract. I sent in updates throughout the cycle with a few more abstracts as well as another pub. Of note, my research job is bench research but with high amount of leadership

I'm in the lopsided category with low gpa (although very large upward trend) and MCAT similar to those of Emory/USC etc. I also had decent volunteering so I was not research only type of applicant.

Long story short, although I had 3 IIs, I had no II from any of the top schools I applied to at all, even those with a lot of research activity. Highest I applied to was top 25-35. I would argue your academic credentials need to be in the acceptable range for these places, not at the 10%ile. Although my mcat was average for there my low overall gpa probably hurt and having a lot of research like I did did not help or seem to compensate one bit!!

As @LizzyM said you want research to be the icing on the cake to help you stand out from the average applicants. I think if you fit the averages of a school and have tremendous research experience that will definitely help you, but if you are below accepted averages to begin with, like I was, it may not have a huge impact as much as you'd hope for

 

[LizzyM]

Typical applicants with good grades, scores and research

Applicants with poor grades and/or scores and no research

Slapping a lot of frosting on those babies is not going to make them as good as the ones at the top.

 

[Phile98]

Typical applicants with good grades, scores and research

Applicants with poor grades and/or scores and no research

Slapping a lot of frosting on those babies is not going to make them as good as the ones at the top.

@LizzyM on point with these cupcake references today lol

 

[camtheram1815]

according to multiple medical schools the most common mistake among reapplicants is applying again too soon

It depends on the application - I was a reapplicant that applied immediately the following cycle and tripled my MD interviews and success rate. Sometimes a school list and application timing is enough to turn the tides - just wanted to throw that in there for this OP.

Edit: I'll note my application was significantly improved b/c I was adding activities/leadership/research throughout the first cycle to give schools updates

 

[LizzyM]

It depends on the application - I was a reapplicant that applied immediately the following cycle and tripled my MD interviews and success rate. Sometimes a school list and application timing is enough to turn the tides - just wanted to throw that in there for this OP.

Edit: I'll note my application was significantly improved b/c I was adding activities/leadership/research throughout the first cycle to give schools updates

How do you triple zero acceptances??

 

[camtheram1815]

How do you triple zero acceptances??

Easy I decided not to go to medical school.

Ha - no I meant to say had a good success rate, apologies

 

[Mooseforkicks]

So what about applicants who are above-average in other areas but have no research?

I have a LizzyM score ~80 with several thousand hours of volunteer experience (some with significant leadership) and 1000+ hours of clinical experience. But zero research. Would my app still be competitive at top schools?

 

[LizzyM]

So what about applicants who are above-average in other areas but have no research?

I have a LizzyM score ~80 with several thousand hours of volunteer experience (some with significant leadership) and 1000+ hours of clinical experience. But zero research. Would my app still be competitive at top schools?

Without getting into a check-box mentality, the top schools are the top research schools and they value research. They want students who have engaged in research and who look forward to continuing research in the future. If you aren't interested in research, and you haven't done any research, why apply to a top research institution? Look for schools that will value your service and leadership and overlook your lack of research experience. A cupcake without frosting is just a muffin but muffins are also welcome in some medical schools. 😉

 

[Goro]

Without getting into a check-box mentality, the top schools are the top research schools and they value research. They want students who have engaged in research and who look forward to continuing research in the future. If you aren't interested in research, and you haven't done any research, why apply to a top research institution? Look for schools that will value your service and leadership and overlook your lack of research experience. A cupcake without frosting is just a muffin but muffins are also welcome in some medical schools. 😉

I think the wise gyngyn point this out:
“SLU, Miami, Tulane, EVMS, USC, Creighton, Quinnipiac, Georgetown, WVU, Rush, Loyola, Albany are the big ones for service.” They are looking for those with a validated commitment to a lifetime of service to those in greatest need (they are Jesuits, etc).

 

[Unlimited Apps]

I think the wise gyngyn point this out:
“SLU, Miami, Tulane, EVMS, USC, Creighton, Quinnipiac, Georgetown, WVU, Rush, Loyola, Albany are the big ones for service.” They are looking for those with a validated commitment to a lifetime of service to those in greatest need (they are Jesuits, etc).

Obviously not trying to simply everything to hours (because you can't), but would one say that schools with a big focus on service want like 500+ hours of volunteering work post-high school? Obviously duration and level of involvement also play a role but generally?

Service certainly isn't the main focus of my application but I do have community service and volunteering (think like a couple hundred hours total over couple years in 2-3 places). Should I not apply to these schools then?

Cause what I keep seeing (and was pointed out earlier in this thread) is that schools typically fall into two categories:
1) Ranked, research heavy, but crazy high stats required
2) Lower to Mid tier (in terms of stats accepted), but focusing on service and leadership

What does a applicant do if they don't fit nicely into either category? Say an applicant with research experience at the T20 level but stats at the mid-tier level (though not service for the mid-tier level).

 

[Goro]

Obviously not trying to simply everything to hours (because you can't), but would one say that schools with a big focus on service want like 500+ hours of volunteering work post-high school? Obviously duration and level of involvement also play a role but generally?

Service certainly isn't the main focus of my application but I do have community service and volunteering (think like a couple hundred hours total over couple years in 2-3 places). Should I not apply to these schools then?

Cause what I keep seeing (and was pointed out earlier in this thread) is that schools typically fall into two categories:
1) Ranked, research heavy, but crazy high stats required
2) Lower to Mid tier (in terms of stats accepted), but focusing on service and leadership

What does a applicant do if they don't fit nicely into either category? Say an applicant with research experience at the T20 level but stats at the mid-tier level (though not service for the mid-tier level).

You're trying too hard to fit things into nice neat little bins. The top schools may have a few stats ****** among them, and they all like research (especially Stanford) but many of them (Northwestern, UCSF, BU, Keck) like service to others less fortunate than yourself.

Here's what the wise LizzyM has mentioned in the past:
If you have more than 300 hours of non-clinical volunteering by the time you apply you will be in the top 25% of applicants with regard to community service (based on what I see). The tip top of the pyramid are those who do a full-time volunteerism during a gap year or two (Peace Corps, City Year, etc).

Clinical... top 25% of the pool have employment in a clinical setting: EMT, scribe, patient care technician (aide). The hours don't matter... it is going to be hundreds of hours if you even work full-time for a few weeks.

The proportion of top applicants who have a publication or a thesis is relatively low -- maybe <20% if you include undergrad thesis. Publications? Less than 5% have anything in a reputable peer reviewed journal.

Most applicants have neither a thesis or a publication after 2 years of lab work during undergrad.

To stand out in the top tier, seriously, you need to be in the top 2% in terms of MCAT and have an excellent GPA. Beyond that, if you have the minimum in all areas and stand out in one or two areas (research, clinical, service, leadership, life experience) you'll be fine.

 

[sab3156]

Being a clinical research coordinator will not be a substitute for grades and scores in the admissions process of the top 20. It's the icing on the cupcake and you don't have a nice cupcake without icing but you also don't have a nice cupcake if the cake doesn't rise high enough.

Just curious - hypothetically, what about clinical research that is published in the top journal in that field, side-by-side with famous clinical scientists in the field? How does that stand up to bench research?

 

[Unlimited Apps]

You're trying too hard to fit things into nice neat little bins. The top schools may have a few stats ****** among them, and they all like research (especially Stanford) but many of them (Northwestern, UCSF, BU, Keck) like service to others less fortunate than yourself.

Here's what the wise LizzyM has mentioned in the past:
If you have more than 300 hours of non-clinical volunteering by the time you apply you will be in the top 25% of applicants with regard to community service (based on what I see). The tip top of the pyramid are those who do a full-time volunteerism during a gap year or two (Peace Corps, City Year, etc).

Clinical... top 25% of the pool have employment in a clinical setting: EMT, scribe, patient care technician (aide). The hours don't matter... it is going to be hundreds of hours if you even work full-time for a few weeks.

The proportion of top applicants who have a publication or a thesis is relatively low -- maybe <20% if you include undergrad thesis. Publications? Less than 5% have anything in a reputable peer reviewed journal.

Most applicants have neither a thesis or a publication after 2 years of lab work during undergrad.

To stand out in the top tier, seriously, you need to be in the top 2% in terms of MCAT and have an excellent GPA. Beyond that, if you have the minimum in all areas and stand out in one or two areas (research, clinical, service, leadership, life experience) you'll be fine.

I must have missed this part (seen a lot of the other helpful LizzyM posts in the past). Is the above for top schools or schools in general? Unfortunately I don't have a top 2% MCAT or a 3.9 GPA but have decent stats (~3.75, ~515, upward trend).

 

[Goro]

I must have missed this part (seen a lot of the other helpful LizzyM posts in the past). Is the above for top schools or schools in general? Unfortunately I don't have a top 2% MCAT or a 3.9 GPA but have decent stats (~3.75, ~515, upward trend).

Top schools.

I suggest the following:
Case
Mayo
Mt Sinai (maybe)
U VM
U IA
U Toledo
USF Morsani
OH State
UCF
U Cincy
Miami
St. Louis
Albany
Albert Einstein
Rochester
Rush
Rosy Franklin
NYMC
EVMS
Wake Forest
Jefferson
Temple
Drexel
Creighton
Tulane
USC/Keck
Dartmouth
Seton Hall
MCW
Loyola
Emory
BU
Duke
Pitt
Hofstra
Tufts
Oakland-B
Western MI
Uniformed Services University/Hebert (just be aware of the military service commitment)
Nova MD
CalUSM IF you're from CA
Your state school(s).

 

[Unlimited Apps]

Top schools.

I suggest the following:
Case
Mayo
Mt Sinai (maybe)
U VM
U IA
U Toledo
USF Morsani
OH State
UCF
U Cincy
Miami
St. Louis
Albany
Albert Einstein
Rochester
Rush
Rosy Franklin
NYMC
EVMS
Wake Forest
Jefferson
Temple
Drexel
Creighton
Tulane
USC/Keck
Dartmouth
Seton Hall
MCW
Loyola
Emory
BU
Duke
Pitt
Hofstra
Tufts
Oakland-B
Western MI
Uniformed Services University/Hebert (just be aware of the military service commitment)
Nova MD
CalUSM IF you're from CA
Your state school(s).

My list as of right now mostly mirrors schools on that list so that is a good start. I'll look into some of the other schools to round out my list.

 

[Unlimited Apps]

Top schools.

I suggest the following:
Case
Mayo
Mt Sinai (maybe)
U VM
U IA
U Toledo
USF Morsani
OH State
UCF
U Cincy
Miami
St. Louis
Albany
Albert Einstein
Rochester
Rush
Rosy Franklin
NYMC
EVMS
Wake Forest
Jefferson
Temple
Drexel
Creighton
Tulane
USC/Keck
Dartmouth
Seton Hall
MCW
Loyola
Emory
BU
Duke
Pitt
Hofstra
Tufts
Oakland-B
Western MI
Uniformed Services University/Hebert (just be aware of the military service commitment)
Nova MD
CalUSM IF you're from CA
Your state school(s).

This is just a curious question but how is your list ordered? Just looking at it makes me think its random but wasn't sure lol.

 

[Goro]

This is just a curious question but how is your list ordered? Just looking at it makes me think its random but wasn't sure lol.

It's random

 

[M1i]

Top schools.

I suggest the following:
Case
Mayo
Mt Sinai (maybe)
U VM
U IA
U Toledo
USF Morsani
OH State
UCF
U Cincy
Miami
St. Louis
Albany
Albert Einstein
Rochester
Rush
Rosy Franklin
NYMC
EVMS
Wake Forest
Jefferson
Temple
Drexel
Creighton
Tulane
USC/Keck
Dartmouth
Seton Hall
MCW
Loyola
Emory
BU
Duke
Pitt
Hofstra
Tufts
Oakland-B
Western MI
Uniformed Services University/Hebert (just be aware of the military service commitment)
Nova MD
CalUSM IF you're from CA
Your state school(s).

Can I ask, from your personal opinion, what makes USF and UCF a ‘top’ medical school. Based of your list…

 

[Goro]

Can I ask, from your personal opinion, what makes USF and UCF a ‘top’ medical school. Based of your list…

Look at their median MCAT scores. UCSF and and USF are BU class schools

Asd an FYI, my classifications are based upon MCAT medians and not only GPA medians, but also 10-90th%iles as well as 25-75%iles. Some schools, like Pitt, have some decent wiggle room, others are very tight.

I used the term "class" for schools, analogous to the USN battleship or cruiser class nomenclature. For example, it's pointless to argue over whether the Iowa or the New Jersey was a better battleship, and even Iowa vs North Carolina (much less Yamato or Bismarck) gets into the same realm. Of the "Top 20" schools, there are 30 schools.

 

[Goro]

I have similar stats (3.7, 515) but I have a first author basic science publication in a peer reviewed journal (and along with it 1000s of clinical and non clinical volunteering). Would my list change @Goro?

I would recommend:
Mt Sinai
U VA
Mayo (maybe)
U MI
Case
U VM
U IA
U Toledo
USF Morsani
OH State
UCF
U Cincy
Miami
St. Louis
Albany
Albert Einstein
Rochester
Rush
Rosy Franklin
NYMC
EVMS
Wake Forest
Jefferson
Temple
Drexel
Creighton
Tulane
USC/Keck
Dartmouth
Seton Hall
MCW
Loyola
Emory
BU
Duke
Pitt
Hofstra
Tufts
Oakland-B
Western MI
Nova MD
CUSM IF you're from CA
Kaiser IF you're from CA
Your state school(s).