What is causing the resurgence of the radiology job market?

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Splenda88

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I am seeing a lot of radiology jobs on these 'physician job websites' and I remember 4-5 yrs ago everyone was saying the job market was rough for radiologists. Why there seem to be a huge demand for radiologists 3-4 yrs later?

For instance, I am seeing more radiology jobs than hospital medicine jobs in envision...

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I am seeing a lot of radiology jobs on these 'physician job websites' and I remember 4-5 yrs ago everyone was saying the job market was rough for radiologists. Why there seem to be a huge demand for radiologists 3-4 yrs later?

For instance, I am seeing more radiology jobs than hospital medicine jobs in envision...
Why do stonks go up and down
 
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Before the ACA passed and we were in a recession you had older radiologists retiring at typical ages and radiologists working fewer hours at a less breakneck pace.
Then the recession hit and people’s retirement portfolios thinned, so older radiologists stayed on. Then the ACA passed cutting reimbursements and practices started picking up the pace. Both of these things led to a dismal job market between 2008-2016.

This process has now corrected itself. Practices are now at likely max tolerable speed and hours worked per week, which has resulted in earlier retirement for a lot of radiologists, and the job market has normalized.

And volumes are going up as the boomer population surges. Demand for radiologists is gonna go sky high, but now we’re all going to have to figure out a way to make the workload tolerable.
 
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A lot of the job postings I see are from RadPartners and Envision. I wonder if this is because these large PE/corporate medicine firms burn out radiologists, resulting in high turnover.
 
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A lot of the job postings I see are from RadPartners and Envision. I wonder if this is because these large PE/corporate medicine firms burn out radiologists, resulting in high turnover.
Seems most likely compared to any other explanation.
 
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Growth... You guys have increasing indications for low dose screening chest CT, new pet ct tracers etc just from an onc standpoint, plus you guys aren't trying to put yourself out of business the way rad onc academia is to us
 
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I am seeing a lot of radiology jobs on these 'physician job websites' and I remember 4-5 yrs ago everyone was saying the job market was rough for radiologists. Why there seem to be a huge demand for radiologists 3-4 yrs later?

For instance, I am seeing more radiology jobs than hospital medicine jobs in envision...
Why do home values and stock prices keep going up? If you have faith in the US economy and capitalism and democracy and believe long-term that it will keep growing, then they are good investments. You wouldn’t invest your money in some clown government like Sudan.

This is what the doomsayers 5-10 years misunderstood about radiology. There were no underlying structural problems with the field. If anything, it has a bright future because imaging utilization will increase because of aging population and increased employment of clueless midlevels, who are more likely to use imaging as a crutch for their lack of clinical expertise. The poor job market was because the older radiologists refused to retire when their 401k’s got decimated. It’s akin to a recession in the economy or housing markets. Give it time and it will come back. Back then, the smart contrarian medical students were applying to radiology. You buy low, sell high. Get into a better radiology program than you could normally because other students are running away from it. The market has corrected itself now and it’s no longer a secret that radiology is a great field to get back into.

The changes that we’re see in other fields like primary care, EM, anesthesia, and rad onc are different. They are structurally changing and not necessarily for the better for the doctor. Especially worrisome is EM. They are facing massive headwinds like rapid over expansion of residencies, increased utilization of midlevels, corporate takeover, and limited work environment (ie, in the ED). I wouldn’t expect the EM job market to recover to its glory days from a few years ago.
 
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Why do home values and stock prices keep going up? If you have faith in the US economy and capitalism and democracy and believe long-term that it will keep growing, then they are good investments. You wouldn’t invest your money in some clown government like Sudan.

This is what the doomsayers 5-10 years misunderstood about radiology. There were no underlying structural problems with the field. If anything, it has a bright future because imaging utilization will increase because of aging population and increased employment of clueless midlevels, who are more likely to use imaging as a crutch for their lack of clinical expertise. The poor job market was because the older radiologists refused to retire when their 401k’s got decimated. It’s akin to a recession in the economy or housing markets. Give it time and it will come back. Back then, the smart contrarian medical students were applying to radiology. You buy low, sell high. Get into a better radiology program than you could normally because other students are running away from it. The market has corrected itself now and the it’s no longer a secret that radiology is a great field to get back into.

The changes that we’re see in other fields like primary care, EM, anesthesia, and rad onc are different. They are structurally changing and not necessarily for the better for the doctor. Especially worrisome is EM. They are facing massive headwinds like rapid over expansion of residencies, increased utilization of midlevels, corporate takeover, and limited work environment (ie, in the ED). I wouldn’t expect EM marker to recover if ever like it has in radiology.
100% my assessment of the situation as well. I think all surgeons and refeeral-based specialists (eg cardiology, GI, radiology) are best positioned to weather the mid level storm. Rad onc is referral based but over the last ten years they have increased their residency spots at an unprecedented rate whereas radiology has NOT ADDED an appreciable amount of spots over the past ten years.
 
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Why do home values and stock prices keep going up? If you have faith in the US economy and capitalism and democracy and believe long-term that it will keep growing, then they are good investments. You wouldn’t invest your money in some clown government like Sudan.

This is what the doomsayers 5-10 years misunderstood about radiology. There were no underlying structural problems with the field. If anything, it has a bright future because imaging utilization will increase because of aging population and increased employment of clueless midlevels, who are more likely to use imaging as a crutch for their lack of clinical expertise. The poor job market was because the older radiologists refused to retire when their 401k’s got decimated. It’s akin to a recession in the economy or housing markets. Give it time and it will come back. Back then, the smart contrarian medical students were applying to radiology. You buy low, sell high. Get into a better radiology program than you could normally because other students are running away from it. The market has corrected itself now and the it’s no longer a secret that radiology is a great field to get back into.

The changes that we’re see in other fields like primary care, EM, anesthesia, and rad onc are different. They are structurally changing and not necessarily for the better for the doctor. Especially worrisome is EM. They are facing massive headwinds like rapid over expansion of residencies, increased utilization of midlevels, corporate takeover, and limited work environment (ie, in the ED). I wouldn’t expect EM job market to recover if ever like it has in radiology.
I know someone who matched (2015) into midtier program with 2 attempts in step 2 CS and 210s on step1 when everyone was running away from radiology... He is finishing his IR training in a few months. That guy is a winner now.
 
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Why do home values and stock prices keep going up? If you have faith in the US economy and capitalism and democracy and believe long-term that it will keep growing, then they are good investments. You wouldn’t invest your money in some clown government like Sudan.

This is what the doomsayers 5-10 years misunderstood about radiology. There were no underlying structural problems with the field. If anything, it has a bright future because imaging utilization will increase because of aging population and increased employment of clueless midlevels, who are more likely to use imaging as a crutch for their lack of clinical expertise. The poor job market was because the older radiologists refused to retire when their 401k’s got decimated. It’s akin to a recession in the economy or housing markets. Give it time and it will come back. Back then, the smart contrarian medical students were applying to radiology. You buy low, sell high. Get into a better radiology program than you could normally because other students are running away from it. The market has corrected itself now and it’s no longer a secret that radiology is a great field to get back into.

The changes that we’re see in other fields like primary care, EM, anesthesia, and rad onc are different. They are structurally changing and not necessarily for the better for the doctor. Especially worrisome is EM. They are facing massive headwinds like rapid over expansion of residencies, increased utilization of midlevels, corporate takeover, and limited work environment (ie, in the ED). I wouldn’t expect the EM job market to recover to its glory days from a few years ago.
I remember @BLADEMDA posted back in like 2010, after a bunch of med students asked for his opinion on choosing a specialty, he asked “will the specialty be a valued provider under Obamacare?” Another way I think of it is - will Boomers need this specialty in the future?

That question stuck with me when it came time for me to pick a residency. He always advised surgical specialties, cards, IR, etc. He looks wise in 2021. I’m especially glad I avoided the EM craze of the 2010’s; that field is on a very worrisome trajectory. I wonder if rad onc will recover, because boomers are definitely in the age range with a lot of cancers that need treatment.
 
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I remember @BLADEMDA posted back in like 2010, after a bunch of med students asked for his opinion on choosing a specialty, he asked “will the specialty be a valued provider under Obamacare?” Another way I think of it is - will Boomers need this specialty in the future?

That question stuck with me when it came time for me to pick a residency. He always advised surgical specialties, cards, IR, etc. He looks wise in 2021. I’m especially glad I avoided the EM craze of the 2010’s; that field is on a very worrisome trajectory. I wonder if rad onc will recover, because boomers are definitely in the age range with a lot of cancers that need treatment.
haha that guy prob single-handedly scared me away from anesthesia than anyone else.
 
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You joke about the stocks going up and down but that’s pretty much the reason for the swing

financial crisis= Retirement accounts decimated, delay retirement for years, hire less radiologists and choose to work more. Job market crashes

fast forward 10 years. Stocks at all time high. Those that delayed retirement can now retire. Plus those 5 years younger choose to retire at a more normal age. Combine that with unprecedented surges in imaging volumes, a steady baseline of trainees throughout . Job market booms.
 
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Are there any indications that the job market will contract again such as overutilization of imaging or overexpansion of residents?
 
imaging is not over utilized. That is just nonsense spouted by bean counters for years.

A physical examination cannot adequately replace literally looking at the body part in question

imaging is still horrifically underutilized for patients with marginal insurance providers
 
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imaging is not over utilized. That is just nonsense spouted by bean counters for years.

A physical examination cannot adequately replace literally looking at the body part in question

imaging is still horrifically underutilized for patients with marginal insurance providers

Its literally the cornerstone of western medicine. Right up there with labs.
 
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Any thoughts on how AI is gonna affect the job market in the next 20 years?
 
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Any thoughts on how AI is gonna affect the job market in the next 20 years?
Yeah, it’s not gonna impact the job market at all. If AI gets so good it could start replacing radiologists, the human race is in danger of becoming slaves to our computer overlords. Ain’t going to happen in my lifetime or yours.
 
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I was strongly considering DR/IR back in my medschool days as an MS2-3 (graduated in 2017), had research all lined up along with some shadowing on my free time. Saw the doom and gloom of the job market at that time and DR was honestly boring as an observer. I got sucked into anesthesia and thought doom/gloom of anesthesia wouldnt be as bad as rads. Well... I was WRONG! Chose the wrong doom and gloom world. Oh well. At least it's not EM yet.
 
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I was strongly considering DR/IR back in my medschool days as an MS2-3 (graduated in 2017), had research all lined up along with some shadowing on my free time. Saw the doom and gloom of the job market at that time and DR was honestly boring as an observer. I got sucked into anesthesia and thought doom/gloom of anesthesia wouldnt be as bad as rads. Well... I was WRONG! Chose the wrong doom and gloom world. Oh well. At least it's not EM yet.
It’s never too late to do what you love
 
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Are there any indications that the job market will contract again such as overutilization of imaging or overexpansion of residents?

The job market will contract bc our professional society/advocacy group (ACR) is pushing for residency expansion. I suspect this has to do with P/E infiltration and their difficulty in recruiting


 
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Just because the ACR supports more physicians being trained doesn’t mean they support more radiologists being trained.

there is a critical physician shortage looming and it’s bad for every specialty if it’s not corrected
 
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Just because the ACR supports more physicians being trained doesn’t mean they support more radiologists being trained.

there is a critical physician shortage looming and it’s bad for every specialty if it’s not corrected

True. According to an AM poster, it would be about 560 slots/year assuming an even split across specialities. Not sure how one would disproportionally attempt to increase spots based on specialty. What data would they all accept?

"Radiologists constitute about 4% of residency positions. 4% of 14,000 is 560."

Argument from ACR is that we need enough physician rads to protect from mid-level encroachment.
 
True. According to an AM poster, it would be about 560 slots/year assuming an even split across specialities. Not sure how one would disproportionally attempt to increase spots based on specialty. What data would they all accept?

"Radiologists constitute about 4% of residency positions. 4% of 14,000 is 560."

Argument from ACR is that we need enough physician rads to protect from mid-level encroachment.
What midlevels? What would a mid level radiologist even look like?
 
What midlevels? What would a mid level radiologist even look like?

RA's/PA's have been employed in 2 of the PPs I have worked in (both in place when I arrived). They performed basic things such as fluoro and more complex things such as lung Bx's and perc nephrostomy. Different states (midwest and NE), so different levels of "supervision" needed but at the end of the day, one of the rads was signing off their work/dictation. My fellowship, which had some light IR also hired a NP as I was leaving to help with procedures.

Go to Engage (ACR forum) and read Howard B. Fleishon, Chair ACR Board of Chancellors, response to this issue
 
What midlevels? What would a mid level radiologist even look like?
There is a minimal midlevel presence in radiology in basic procedures (thoras, paras) and possibly rounding if the IRs want that. Whenever they do more than that it becomes newsworthy, which I think is an indication the broader radiology community is against utilizing midlevels.

In other specialties they might be responsible for the ER, ICU, floor, anesthesia OR, outpt primary care clinics and function near autonomously without anyone complaining (except residents and a few attendings on anonymous online forums), so for now radiology has held out pretty well. Ongoing advocacy is important still. If the majority of the aforementioned specialties fall to midlevels, eventually they will start looking for a greater presence in surgery and radiology.
 
What midlevels? What would a mid level radiologist even look like?



“The RA also makes initial observations of diagnostic images but does not provide an official interpretation in the form of a written report (Advanced Practice Advisory Panel, 2002).”

They do not provide official interpretation, so that means that radiology is safe and our community should leave our guard down.
 
There is a minimal midlevel presence in radiology in basic procedures (thoras, paras) and possibly rounding if the IRs want that. Whenever they do more than that it becomes newsworthy, which I think is an indication the broader radiology community is against utilizing midlevels.

In other specialties they might be responsible for the ER, ICU, floor, anesthesia OR, outpt primary care clinics and function near autonomously without anyone complaining (except residents and a few attendings on anonymous online forums), so for now radiology has held out pretty well. Ongoing advocacy is important still. If the majority of the aforementioned specialties fall to midlevels, eventually they will start looking for a greater presence in surgery and radiology.
The economics of reading images work against midlevels. I can send a finalized report electronically for a normal chest plain film within 5 seconds and for a normal CT abdomen and pelvis within 5 minutes. How does adding a middleman to that process increase my productivity? It doesn’t. If a midlevel prereads an exam and I have to review the same images before the report can be finalized, then my productivity will be significantly impacted negatively. It will often double or triple or more the time to finalize the report for that study. That’s why training residents is so time-consuming. Furthermore, if you have a train wreck of a study or a subtle but critical finding, you need the knowledge and experience from going to medical school, residency, and often fellowship. Midlevels don’t possess that knowledge base. Every time you open a new study to read, it can fall into any category. This is an extremely important point. Unlike other medical fields like primary care, anesthesia, and EM that can triage cases and assign the easier, less complex cases to midlevels, you can’t do that in reading imaging studies. Midlevels can’t cherry pick easy, normal studies from the complex studies or ones with critical findings. Male or female. Old or young. Black or white. It doesn’t matter. That million dollar lawsuit can be hiding in any study. Images don’t change and can be preserved indefinitely. This is another extremely important point. Imaging is unlike most clinical fields where the condition of the patient in retrospect is inferred based on documentation and diagnostic tests. You don’t know the exact condition of the patient unless you were there in person. Using a retroscope, a good lawyer can look at the exact same images as you did and point out where you missed that critical finding. Hence, these are some major reasons why midlevels in radiology are primarily used to do minor procedures and scutwork and not reading images. If a midlevel places a drain or does a biopsy, they can more or less function independently and in that case they can help the bottom line of the group.

Other medical fields like primary care, anesthesia, and EM widely adopted midlevels because they improved the bottom lines of groups. They allowed midlevels to run rampant and to function more or less autonomously with physician backup because it helped make the partners in the groups more money. These fields loved midlevels until the midlevels revolted and demanded their independence. These fields didn’t have the foresight to see what would happen if you don’t limit what midlevels can do and to establish clear boundaries and to unequivocally differentiate the roles of physician and midlevel. These fields allowed the boundaries to become fuzzy, roles to be interchangeable more or less, and made it very difficult for the lay public and politicians to see independent midlevels as a risk to public health. That’s why I keep harping on the point that it is critical for the long term health of your field to maintain a large moat separating the roles of physician and midlevel. Because of economics (and probably a lot of dumb luck), radiology has done this. Surgery too.
 
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Yes they do.

hence the PA use

PAs are a godsend for the time intensive low reimbursement studies such as fluoro, paras, etc as Taurus noted. That’s all they’ll be doing. It’s not a gateway to them reading prostate mri.
 
I agree. As a general rad who can read most types of studies, perform breast imaging, and some light IR, I am not fearful of being replaced by a mid-level. I mainly see their dictations and see their limitations (eg. unable to correlate current post-op upper GI w/prior cross sectional).

I am concerned about this desire to bump up training spots and AI. An AM poster stated it best, govt is all over the place they want to cut CMS, now they want to spend more on residencies, they want to increase scope of mid-levels yet they now want more highly trained physicians etc
 
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I am concerned about this desire to bump up training spots and AI.
Radiology residency spots have not significantly increased over the past 10 years whereas they have in EM and RadOnc. EM for example now accounts for nearly 10% of all residency spots. That’s crazy! When you combine the increase in graduates in these fields with significant structural changes that reduce their demand, their job markets have tanked. Head over to their forums to find out more about the structural changes.

If we want to maintain the reading of imaging studies as the function of radiologists, you need enough radiologists to do that. It’s a tricky balance. As imaging volumes increase nationwide, the number of radiologists has to proportionately increase. If you have a severe shortage of radiologists, the pay will significantly increase because of supply and demand...for a while. However, such a severe shortage will cause clinicians, regulatory bodies, states hospitals, etc to get creative to look for alternative models, ie, provide formal training to midlevels to read imaging studies and to finalize reports independently. In England, “radiographers” are not radiologists or physicians but they read plain films and finalize reports. Why couldn’t such a role be created in this country? They could also create training shortcuts. Why do you need 6 years of training after medical school (5 years residency + 1 year fellowship) to become a mammographer? Some academicians have written papers describing a 3 year training program to create mammographers only. What do you think that would do to the mammography job market, which has been one of the hottest in radiology for a long time? A severe shortage of radiologists would also increase the prevalence of non-radiologists reading images, ie, cardiologists, ob-gyn, etc. For example, my group has a contract with local cardiology group where we double read their CTA studies including chest, abdomen, and pelvis. The cardiologists will read the heart and vessels and the radiologists read everything else. The cardiologists own the machine and collect the technical fees. If we don’t provide this service, they can find it somewhere else, ie, teleradiology.

Finally, I wouldn’t worry about AI. I head our AI initiative for our 100+ rad group. AI is more hype than reality. It’s not going to cause structural changes and significantly decrease demand for radiologists. As I keep stressing, if AI is so good that it could replace a radiologist, I’m more worried about the computers turning humans into slaves than my job.
 
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What happened to the concerns of hospitals hiring radiologists from other countries like india/australia to cover and read remotely?

This has been a "concern" since I enrolled in medical school, which was nearly two decades ago, yet it has never happened on anything larger than an anecdotal scale. CMS requires the billable act to occur within the United States, which for a radiologist is the interpretation. It's not cost-effective or practical to have one U.S.-based radiologist to cover CMS exams while simultaneously having an overseas radiologist to read everything else. Also, if my personal experience is any indicator, the ED already gets a case of the redass when it has to wait 30 minutes for the U.S.-based teleradiology read at 2 am...nevermind the added complexity of sending exams halfway around the world. And that's before one even considers things like language barriers and liability concerns.
 
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In England, “radiographers” are not radiologists or physicians but they read plain films and finalize reports. Why couldn’t such a role be created in this country?
One could argue that this is unlikely in the US due to the litigious nature of our society. Legal liability is not as high in the UK, so radiographers could have some ground there. In America, a misread chest X-ray could be a $2 million law suit.
 
One could argue that this is unlikely in the US due to the litigious nature of our society. Legal liability is not as high in the UK, so radiographers could have some ground there. In America, a misread chest X-ray could be a $2 million law suit.

Or $16 million ...

 
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Tesla crash victim is named as 59-year-old doctor

This is why AI will never replace radiologists. To most lay people, AI is like magic in what it can do. However, to understand AI and it’s limitations, you need a computer background and/or experience to be able to look under the hood and understand it’s mechanics. Don’t get me wrong. Modern technology and AI are amazing but the human brain is more amazing and we’re still a long way off from replicating it’s abilities. Most people have more common sense than AI to give two geezers a joyride at midnight. 🤪 If we ever get to the point that AI can replace radiologists, worry more about computers turning humans into slaves than your jobs.
 
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I agree. As a general rad who can read most types of studies, perform breast imaging, and some light IR, I am not fearful of being replaced by a mid-level. I mainly see their dictations and see their limitations (eg. unable to correlate current post-op upper GI w/prior cross sectional).

I am concerned about this desire to bump up training spots and AI. An AM poster stated it best, govt is all over the place they want to cut CMS, now they want to spend more on residencies, they want to increase scope of mid-levels yet they now want more highly trained physicians etc


They want it all baby! That is why the govt pulled out all the stops. If they throw enough **** at you eventually your salary will go down and you'll get more desperate and accept ****tier working conditions.

The ACR should be ashamed. They deliberately drew all the wrong conclusions. If COVID has taught us anything its that there are very real limits to how many doctors need to be trained.

If there is one thing I don't want to do as a medical professional in 2021 who needs a job and has a family to support, its teach someone else my job.
 
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The economics of reading images work against midlevels. I can send a finalized report electronically for a normal chest plain film within 5 seconds and for a normal CT abdomen and pelvis within 5 minutes. How does adding a middleman to that process increase my productivity? It doesn’t. If a midlevel prereads an exam and I have to review the same images before the report can be finalized, then my productivity will be significantly impacted negatively. It will often double or triple or more the time to finalize the report for that study. That’s why training residents is so time-consuming. Furthermore, if you have a train wreck of a study or a subtle but critical finding, you need the knowledge and experience from going to medical school, residency, and often fellowship. Midlevels don’t possess that knowledge base. Every time you open a new study to read, it can fall into any category. This is an extremely important point. Unlike other medical fields like primary care, anesthesia, and EM that can triage cases and assign the easier, less complex cases to midlevels, you can’t do that in reading imaging studies. Midlevels can’t cherry pick easy, normal studies from the complex studies or ones with critical findings. Male or female. Old or young. Black or white. It doesn’t matter. That million dollar lawsuit can be hiding in any study. Images don’t change and can be preserved indefinitely. This is another extremely important point. Imaging is unlike most clinical fields where the condition of the patient in retrospect is inferred based on documentation and diagnostic tests. You don’t know the exact condition of the patient unless you were there in person. Using a retroscope, a good lawyer can look at the exact same images as you did and point out where you missed that critical finding. Hence, these are some major reasons why midlevels in radiology are primarily used to do minor procedures and scutwork and not reading images. If a midlevel places a drain or does a biopsy, they can more or less function independently and in that case they can help the bottom line of the group.

Other medical fields like primary care, anesthesia, and EM widely adopted midlevels because they improved the bottom lines of groups. They allowed midlevels to run rampant and to function more or less autonomously with physician backup because it helped make the partners in the groups more money. These fields loved midlevels until the midlevels revolted and demanded their independence. These fields didn’t have the foresight to see what would happen if you don’t limit what midlevels can do and to establish clear boundaries and to unequivocally differentiate the roles of physician and midlevel. These fields allowed the boundaries to become fuzzy, roles to be interchangeable more or less, and made it very difficult for the lay public and politicians to see independent midlevels as a risk to public health. That’s why I keep harping on the point that it is critical for the long term health of your field to maintain a large moat separating the roles of physician and midlevel. Because of economics (and probably a lot of dumb luck), radiology has done this. Surgery too.
I disagree with some of the points here, but your post is well put together. Regarding it not being “economical” to hire midlevels:
1. I read a lot slower than you, and would probably gain more from a midlevel than someone who has reached maximum reading efficiency. From people who have used the rad extenders (which I’m guessing would be similar to the theoretical midlevel) they are like senior residents or early fellows in report quality. And I generally do gain efficiency with that level of trainee

2. Admin is ultimately going to push for rubber stamping of their reports. Ie just batch sign with a cursory look to say you read 600 studies. It’s what happened in that retracted JACR article where attendings sign 100 chest X-rays in an hour. They are just rubber stamping reports and when the job market is desperate enough, we may have to accept a job like that.

3. Ultimately in the long run a smart admin will know that even if an NP slows down one of their rads, they are always economical. The act of drafting and being corrected on reports is in fact the very essence of radiology residency training. In 5 years of this, an NP (especially one who is very subspecialized, which is common) will have gained quite a bit of training. Admin could basically force us to train our replacements.

4. Triaging cases in rads is easy. Any screening exam, including mammo, ldct, hcc us, etc or outpatient spine or ppd+ chest radiographs, these are all relatively simple studies most of the time. Ultimately a “simple case” is just a case with a low pretest probability for significant pathology. This is found in rads as much as primary care. Yes a million dollar lawsuit could be lurking in any of those lung screening cts. But I would argue it could also be lurking in the 40 year old who presents to urgent care with cough. Most of the time, the most likely pathology is present. Occasionally, a more rare pathology may be present and a midlevel will likely miss it. Admin is ok with this happening in urgent cares / other areas where midlevels have infiltrated, so I don’t see why this is a problem if it happens in rads

5. never let your guard down on this. There is nothing unique or preventative with how radiology is structured to block midlevels. We are just higher hanging fruit and there are only so many midlevels graduated every year. Once other fields have been taken over, we may be next
 
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I disagree with some of the points here, but your post is well put together. Regarding it not being “economical” to hire midlevels:
1. I read a lot slower than you, and would probably gain more from a midlevel than someone who has reached maximum reading efficiency. From people who have used the rad extenders (which I’m guessing would be similar to the theoretical midlevel) they are like senior residents or early fellows in report quality. And I generally do gain efficiency with that level of trainee

2. Admin is ultimately going to push for rubber stamping of their reports. Ie just batch sign with a cursory look to say you read 600 studies. It’s what happened in that retracted JACR article where attendings sign 100 chest X-rays in an hour. They are just rubber stamping reports and when the job market is desperate enough, we may have to accept a job like that.

3. Ultimately in the long run a smart admin will know that even if an NP slows down one of their rads, they are always economical. The act of drafting and being corrected on reports is in fact the very essence of radiology residency training. In 5 years of this, an NP (especially one who is very subspecialized, which is common) will have gained quite a bit of training. Admin could basically force us to train our replacements.

4. Triaging cases in rads is easy. Any screening exam, including mammo, ldct, hcc us, etc or outpatient spine or ppd+ chest radiographs, these are all relatively simple studies most of the time. Ultimately a “simple case” is just a case with a low pretest probability for significant pathology. This is found in rads as much as primary care. Yes a million dollar lawsuit could be lurking in any of those lung screening cts. But I would argue it could also be lurking in the 40 year old who presents to urgent care with cough. Most of the time, the most likely pathology is present. Occasionally, a more rare pathology may be present and a midlevel will likely miss it. Admin is ok with this happening in urgent cares / other areas where midlevels have infiltrated, so I don’t see why this is a problem if it happens in rads

5. never let your guard down on this. There is nothing unique or preventative with how radiology is structured to block midlevels. We are just higher hanging fruit and there are only so many midlevels graduated every year. Once other fields have been taken over, we may be next

Been trying to dispel this myth of protected specialties all freaking day. its a full time job lol
 
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I disagree with some of the points here, but your post is well put together. Regarding it not being “economical” to hire midlevels:
1. I read a lot slower than you, and would probably gain more from a midlevel than someone who has reached maximum reading efficiency. From people who have used the rad extenders (which I’m guessing would be similar to the theoretical midlevel) they are like senior residents or early fellows in report quality. And I generally do gain efficiency with that level of trainee

2. Admin is ultimately going to push for rubber stamping of their reports. Ie just batch sign with a cursory look to say you read 600 studies. It’s what happened in that retracted JACR article where attendings sign 100 chest X-rays in an hour. They are just rubber stamping reports and when the job market is desperate enough, we may have to accept a job like that.

3. Ultimately in the long run a smart admin will know that even if an NP slows down one of their rads, they are always economical. The act of drafting and being corrected on reports is in fact the very essence of radiology residency training. In 5 years of this, an NP (especially one who is very subspecialized, which is common) will have gained quite a bit of training. Admin could basically force us to train our replacements.

4. Triaging cases in rads is easy. Any screening exam, including mammo, ldct, hcc us, etc or outpatient spine or ppd+ chest radiographs, these are all relatively simple studies most of the time. Ultimately a “simple case” is just a case with a low pretest probability for significant pathology. This is found in rads as much as primary care. Yes a million dollar lawsuit could be lurking in any of those lung screening cts. But I would argue it could also be lurking in the 40 year old who presents to urgent care with cough. Most of the time, the most likely pathology is present. Occasionally, a more rare pathology may be present and a midlevel will likely miss it. Admin is ok with this happening in urgent cares / other areas where midlevels have infiltrated, so I don’t see why this is a problem if it happens in rads

5. never let your guard down on this. There is nothing unique or preventative with how radiology is structured to block midlevels. We are just higher hanging fruit and there are only so many midlevels graduated every year. Once other fields have been taken over, we may be next

Mid-levels can become pretty good with procedures, and performing fluoro. There are almost always some issue(s) with their fluoro dictations which for the most part are not catastrophic but at times significant (eg. missing a Zenkers for pt w/globus). A lot of the issues also stem from their inability to correlate with other studies/modalities.

I have a hard time seeing them replacing a well-rounded general rad. May be down the line with AI but not anytime soon. Just to understand what normal anatomy looks like on US vs CT vs MRI would be a challenge unless they dedicated 3-5 years of training to do this (eg. radiology residency). One can learn fluoro and procedures on the job, but not body/neuro/msk MR, CT perfusion etc, unless this was the sole thing that they would be doing which is not realistic or cost effective.
 
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Mid-levels can become pretty good with procedures, and performing fluoro. There are almost always some issue(s) with their fluoro dictations which for the most part are not catastrophic but at times significant (eg. missing a Zenkers for pt w/globus). A lot of the issues also stem from their inability to correlate with other studies/modalities.

I have a hard time seeing them replacing a well-rounded general rad. May be down the line with AI but not anytime soon. Just to understand what normal anatomy looks like on US vs CT vs MRI would be a challenge unless they dedicated 3-5 years of training to do this (eg. radiology residency). One can learn fluoro and procedures on the job, but not body/neuro/msk MR, CT perfusion etc, unless this was the sole thing that they would be doing which is not realistic or cost effective.
Currently radiology extenders (who are radiology techs given some short training and sent out to draft xrays) do exactly the second statement. I won’t name names but a large academic center uses them and publishes about using them (then has the article retracted from ACR). I have also heard from someone in the institution, they commonly do look at prior CTs for correlation, although they do not yet draft reports for CTs (mostly due to the influence on resident training)

What you describe as not being “realistic or economical” is currently happening, and with great cost reduction. Granted these are techs not midlevels (so slightly dumber and cheaper) but it’s not hard to imagine a midlevel doing the same role.
 
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Currently radiology extenders (who are radiology techs given some short training and sent out to draft xrays) do exactly the second statement. I won’t name names but a large academic center uses them and publishes about using them (then has the article retracted from ACR). I have also heard from someone in the institution, they commonly do look at prior CTs for correlation, although they do not yet draft reports for CTs (mostly due to the influence on resident training)

What you describe as not being “realistic or economical” is currently happening, and with great cost reduction. Granted these are techs not midlevels (so slightly dumber and cheaper) but it’s not hard to imagine a midlevel doing the same role.

i know which hospital system you are talking about, and there is also another hospital system in that same state that are using extenders that are actually really good at reading x rays and correlating them with prior CT/MRI. It’s only a matter of time before extenders will get to the same level as is happening in other specialties, to think otherwise is being naive and dangerous for our field.
 
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Currently radiology extenders (who are radiology techs given some short training and sent out to draft xrays) do exactly the second statement. I won’t name names but a large academic center uses them and publishes about using them (then has the article retracted from ACR). I have also heard from someone in the institution, they commonly do look at prior CTs for correlation, although they do not yet draft reports for CTs (mostly due to the influence on resident training)

What you describe as not being “realistic or economical” is currently happening, and with great cost reduction. Granted these are techs not midlevels (so slightly dumber and cheaper) but it’s not hard to imagine a midlevel doing the same role.

Maybe in an ivory tower but yet to see these in a fast paced PP model. But your point is well taken. So what to do about preventing mid-level encroachment? What to do about P/E infiltration? ACR supports increasing training spots to prevent mid-level encroachment but just bc we have enough physician rads does not guarantee that the mid-level lobby will stop. Also an increase in training spots would help out P/E groups that are having a hard time recruiting. Honestly don't know what the answer is
 
Maybe in an ivory tower but yet to see these in a fast paced PP model. But your point is well taken. So what to do about preventing mid-level encroachment? What to do about P/E infiltration? ACR supports increasing training spots to prevent mid-level encroachment but just bc we have enough physician rads does not guarantee that the mid-level lobby will stop. Also an increase in training spots would help out P/E groups that are having a hard time recruiting. Honestly don't know what the answer is

Yes, it is almost as if we need a group of radiologist who we can pay and then they can advocate for our field. Surely if such a body existed then we wouldn't have all these problems coupled with declining reimbursements.

Also, yes there is a PP model that uses extenders. DM me and I’ll tell you which hospital.
 
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I was recently on call, and I don't see extenders being able to take general call. This is not primary care where an NP or PA can consult every specialty. This limitation coupled with the legal liability just limits the utility of extenders. Yes, they may have a role in drafting X-rays and doing procedures, and sonographers could dictate US, but I don't see them going past this level and being able to integrate imaging modalities. Radiology is one specialty where intimate knowledge from medical school is useful.
 
trainees make attendings more inefficient until 4th year and fellow level, post extensive independent education and call.

hard to see most mid levels ever reach that level of competence. There is a reason they are mid levels and not physicians.

you can’t equate a crna monitoring vitals and algorithmically pushing meds with what you can encounter on any ct abdomen
 
I was recently on call, and I don't see extenders being able to take general call. This is not primary care where an NP or PA can consult every specialty. This limitation coupled with the legal liability just limits the utility of extenders. Yes, they may have a role in drafting X-rays and doing procedures, and sonographers could dictate US, but I don't see them going past this level and being able to integrate imaging modalities. Radiology is one specialty where intimate knowledge from medical school is useful.

Many experienced rads do a sub-optimal job on call. The complexity of cases, breadth of knowledge, and fast pace required in most practices simply precludes mid-levels from doing this anytime soon. They don't have the same foundation we have from med school and they don't have 5-6 years of post-grad training. I myself would be screwed without internet access to look stuff up.
 
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At a certain volume of work, even the best radiologist will produce reports approaching a mid level quality

not sure if the recent imaging surge is short lived from Covid. But if this is here to stay, we need more radiologists trained
 
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