What is so BAD about Grad School??

[rhodesman]

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So I TA a very large introductory biology course at my university. Today the Professor introduced me to the class of about 300 freshmen and sophomores. I decided to break the ice by asking everyone their majors which were mostly biological sciences and what they wanted to do. When I asked who wanted to go to grad school, literally maybe 5 or 6 out of the 300 students raised their hands....When I asked who wanted to go to medical or dental school every freakin body shot their hand in the air. The professor kind of choked on his coffee and was like well how many of you are considering a PhD if you don't get into medical school? Maybe another two or three people raised their hands. The professor was like "wow".

It seems like everybody around me wants to go to medical school and nobody wants to get a PhD anymore. Even the kids who want to get a PhD nowadays insist on MD/PhDs (even though some of them are really just gunning MD only deep down inside).

So my question is: What the heck is wrong with grad school????? Why doesn't any of this country's youth want to get a PhD anymore? We all have our favorite professors, and so why don't more of us idolize to get a PhD? I know too many kids who look down on students who want to get PhDs and even look at research and academics as a dead end pathway.

Is it prestige? money? lifestyle? ....?

 

[TarHeelEMT]

Well, if I got a PhD, I'd constantly run the risk of the scientifically illiterate but politically influential taking an interest in my field and making my life miserable.

Wait, that sounds like medicine, too. Damn.

 

[wolverinepwns]

So I TA a very large introductory biology course at my university. Today the Professor introduced me to the class of about 300 freshmen and sophomores. I decided to break the ice by asking everyone their majors which were mostly biological sciences and what they wanted to do. When I asked who wanted to go to grad school, literally maybe 5 or 6 out of the 300 students raised their hands....When I asked who wanted to go to medical or dental school every freakin body shot their hand in the air. The professor kind of choked on his coffee and was like well how many of you are considering a PhD if you don't get into medical school? Maybe another two or three people raised their hands. The professor was like "wow".

It seems like everybody around me wants to go to medical school and nobody wants to get a PhD anymore. Even the kids who want to get a PhD nowadays insist on MD/PhDs (even though some of them are really just gunning MD only deep down inside).

So my question is: What the heck is wrong with grad school????? Why doesn't any of this country's youth want to get a PhD anymore? We all have our favorite professors, and so why don't more of us idolize to get a PhD? I know too many kids who look down on students who want to get PhDs and even look at research and academics as a dead end pathway.

Is it prestige? money? lifestyle? ....?

This is my personal opinion but having done a couple years of research as an undergrad I found it to be boring and I cannot imagine doing that for the rest of my life! also the oppurtunity to be able to teach with a PhD is harder and harder, at least it was at my undergrad institution! So I think for my personally getting a PhD didn't match the lifestyle I picture myself having!

 

[kc of nazareth]

Our professor asked us the same thing on my first day of Bio in my first semester. The best part was as 200+ kids had their hands up after the question about medical school, he said "well the facts are that less than 3% of you will make it."

I don't think I'll ever forget the painfully hilarious collective silence as all the hands slowly fell down.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

You have to really really love the subject to get a PhD. It's a 6 year investment where you put your life off and instead of spending 6 years making money and starting a family/life. You basically just took a 6 year vacation just so you could pursue a career in research or teaching. Oh and both of those require you do post-docs for your employers to be interested in you.
That's versus the MD/DO which is 4 years + 3(+) years in residency and making 4x as much as a PhD and spending around the same amount of time studying.

Basically a PhD is a bad choice for most people. Unless you get a hard on thinking about the prospects of being a researcher or a teacher its not for you. However if you want a practical degree to work and join society without wasting a lot of your life. Then get a masters.

 

[IvyHopeful20]

As a person going into academic medicine, I'd like to give my opinions on the whole issue of research.

First, there will be less money than medicine. That's just a fact. You spend four years of undergrad, five-six years of grad school (though no debt), and three-six years of post-doc work to land an assistant professorship somewhere that still pays only $60k. Bust your butt for six-eight more years and maybe you'll get tenure. By this time you're into your forties. With that much work in any other industry, you'll be well past that in terms of earning potential. Secondly, the money is better in industry, but not usually enough to be particularly enticing as a career. And there is not the glamour of a MD either.

However, that is not the issue. While it is a problem that a larger and larger percentage of grad school ranks are filled by international students, the crux of the matter is that the US produces too many scientists, especially in the biological sciences. People cry about math and science education, and it is important, but while there is a shortage of knowledge at the high school and under, there are too many scientists and not enough universities to handle the output. The fact is that at any decent university, if there is an opening, you'll get 50-100 qualified PhDs applying for that one position. Look at the universities your professors went to - if you went to a top fifty or top seventy five undergrad, virtually all of the professors went to an ivy league university. So where do all those PhD graduates from the non-top schools go to? It's a rough world out there, and while you won't be unemployed, it's not easy.

 

[IvyHopeful20]

And another issue is not everyone has it in them to be a PI. My PI is totally ballin'. I'm in awe of his abilities to get to root of problems and critically analyze a paper, or even just conversations.

 

[rhodesman]

You have to really really love the subject to get a PhD. It's a 6 year investment where you put your life off and instead of spending 6 years making money and starting a family/life. You basically just took a 6 year vacation just so you could pursue a career in research or teaching. Oh and both of those require you do post-docs for your employers to be interested in you.
That's versus the MD/DO which is 4 years + 3(+) years in residency and making 4x as much as a PhD and spending around the same amount of time studying.

Basically a PhD is a bad choice for most people. Unless you get a hard on thinking about the prospects of being a researcher or a teacher its not for you. However if you want a practical degree to work and join society without wasting a lot of your life. Then get a masters.

Is this a pre-Obamacare financial quote?

 

[DaisyBuchanan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XViCOAu6UC0

One of the post-docs in my lab showed me this. He says that the Simpsons hit the nail on the head here 😛

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Is this a pre-Obamacare financial quote?

Is this a "lets open a can of worms" thread?

 

[cclewis]

Is this a pre-Obamacare financial quote?

*sigh*

 

[rhodesman]

As a person going into academic medicine, I'd like to give my opinions on the whole issue of research.

First, there will be less money than medicine. That's just a fact. You spend four years of undergrad, five-six years of grad school (though no debt), and three-six years of post-doc work to land an assistant professorship somewhere that still pays only $60k. Bust your butt for six-eight more years and maybe you'll get tenure. By this time you're into your forties. With that much work in any other industry, you'll be well past that in terms of earning potential. Secondly, the money is better in industry, but not usually enough to be particularly enticing as a career. And there is not the glamour of a MD either.

However, that is not the issue. While it is a problem that a larger and larger percentage of grad school ranks are filled by international students, the crux of the matter is that the US produces too many scientists, especially in the biological sciences. People cry about math and science education, and it is important, but while there is a shortage of knowledge at the high school and under, there are too many scientists and not enough universities to handle the output. The fact is that at any decent university, if there is an opening, you'll get 50-100 qualified PhDs applying for that one position. Look at the universities your professors went to - if you went to a top fifty or top seventy five undergrad, virtually all of the professors went to an ivy league university. So where do all those PhD graduates from the non-top schools go to? It's a rough world out there, and while you won't be unemployed, it's not easy.

Very true, most of the students in grad school today unfortunately will not land jobs as professors with their own labs. My PI once told me that less than 10% of PhD students have it in them to run their own lab. I guess with raising tuition costs, students see the job prospectus and salary and loose all consideration. You have to be a GREAT researcher to make a GOOD professor's salary...but you can be a MEDIOCRE FP and make more at a younger age...Its funny how students become aware of this at such an early part in their undergraduate studies...

 

[emiko]

I totally agree with the above post. We are in fact producing way too many scientists than needed and there is a huge competition in getting research grants and positions nowadays. I don't think it is a problem that there is only a small number of students wanting to pursue a research career, as long as the best students would be willing to do research rather than other careers such as medicine or business. Only a small and extremely prestigious group of people should be encouraged into pursuing a full time research career. As a perspective MD/PhD student and someone who has spent the past 5 years camping out in the research labs, I have to say that it would be very tragic if someone who has to try hard to succeed in lower div science classes (ex. many premeds) wants to get a PhD. While most undergraduates are encouraged to do research, after you get to grad school or become a post-doc, the academia is not very encouraging and many people do fail. Besides, the society definitely needs way more health professionals than professors anyways.

 

[rhodesman]

One other thing, does anyone know if it is like this in other countries where physicians do not make that much more than PhDs. Is there still the same kind of *infatuation* with one profession over the other?

MY BAD; thanks IVY Hopeful, I'm doing other stuff on the computer and I guess it distracted me...lol

 

[IvyHopeful20]

One other thing, does anyone know if it is like this in other countries where physicians do not make that much more than PhDs. Is there still the same kind of incest with one profession over the other?

I don't think there is incest 😛, but being a doctor is considered more prestigious by the lay public. A lot more kids want to be doctors than biochemists.

Also, many countries do not have the funding opportunities that the US does, so it's even harder to get money than in the US.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I totally agree with the above post. We are in fact producing way too many scientists than needed and there is a huge competition in getting research grants and positions nowadays. I don't think it is a problem that there is only a small number of students wanting to pursue a research career, as long as the best students would be willing to do research rather than other careers such as medicine or business. Only a small and extremely prestigious group of people should be encouraged into pursuing a full time research career. As a perspective MD/PhD student and someone who has spent the past 5 years camping out in the research labs, I have to say that it would be very tragic if someone who has to try hard to succeed in lower div science classes (ex. many premeds) wants to get a PhD. While most undergraduates are encouraged to do research, after you get to grad school or become a post-doc, the academia is not very encouraging and many people do fail. Besides, the society definitely needs way more health professionals than professors anyways.

No we are not producing too many scientists. Honestly there's no such thing as too many bright scientists who can research and figure out and make a road towards the future. The problem is simply that science doesn't pay. America is getting stupider, too many people aspire for millions in investment banking and law. Lets go make millions through our using our minds.

 

[IvyHopeful20]

Disagree. If you get a PhD in the hard sciences, where can you work? In many of the hard sciences, academia is the only legitimate option and the issue there is 50:1 in terms of applicants vs. openings. Unfortunately, that's the harsh reality.

 

[rhodesman]

Disagree. If you get a PhD in the hard sciences, where can you work? In many of the hard sciences, academia is the only legitimate option and the issue there is 50:1 in terms of applicants vs. openings. Unfortunately, that's the harsh reality.

I actually think you are lowballing your ratio there. I'm at a pretty pretigious research institute and there was recently a job opening. I asked the assistant professor I work with and he told me that they had in the neighborhood of 300-400 applicants 😱... and I am willing to bet most of them DID NOT come from Podunk University. They had visiting lectureships for those finalist candidates and they were all from Stanford, Harvard, MIT, or the likes. They ended up with a Harvard post-doc who was first author in Nature Neuroscience and Cell, and already had an R01 under his belt 😀.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

No we are not producing too many scientists. Honestly there's no such thing as too many bright scientists who can research and figure out and make a road towards the future. The problem is simply that science doesn't pay. America is getting stupider, too many people aspire for millions in investment banking and law. Lets go make millions through our using our minds.

I've been involved in research for over two years and I can tell you that Ivy is right regarding his/her statement that the US is producing too many PhDs, particularly in the biological science fields.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Disagree. If you get a PhD in the hard sciences, where can you work? In many of the hard sciences, academia is the only legitimate option and the issue there is 50:1 in terms of applicants vs. openings. Unfortunately, that's the harsh reality.

My view on it is funding needs to be allocated to better usages such as research. Fundamentally you can never have enough bright minds who are highly educated and doing researching to light area's which were once dark.

 

[IvyHopeful20]

My view on it is funding needs to be allocated to better usages such as research. Fundamentally you can never have enough bright minds who are highly educated and doing researching to light area's which were once dark.

You can if those bright minds can't actually do any research because there are not enough jobs. The market is oversaturated. Until there is a massive decrease in grad students and/or increase in research funding, that will continue to be the case.

While I agree that more money can always be put into research, that needs to come first, not the glutton of PhD graduates with nowhere to go.

 

[IvyHopeful20]

I actually think you are lowballing your ratio there. I'm at a pretty pretigious research institute and there was recently a job opening. I asked the assistant professor I work with and he told me that they had in the neighborhood of 300-400 applicants 😱... and I am willing to bet most of them DID NOT come from Podunk University. They had visiting lectureships for those finalist candidates and they were all from Stanford, Harvard, MIT, or the likes. They ended up with a Harvard post-doc who was first author in Nature Neuroscience and Cell, and already had an R01 under his belt 😀.

Yup. It's brutal competition.

 

[MightyMoose]

You can if those bright minds can't actually do any research because there are not enough jobs. The market is oversaturated. Until there is a massive decrease in grad students and/or increase in research funding, that will continue to be the case.

While I agree that more money can always be put into research, that needs to come first, not the glutton of PhD graduates with nowhere to go.

So true. You know the market for PhD's isn't so hot when they are resorting to applying for Professional Research Assistant positions paying 32k a year.

While there are other things you can do with a PhD such as research in the private sector, product development, etc., it really depends on the PhD you get.

To the OP, it will be interesting to see how many of those students raise their hands after another year or two.

 

[IPremed2010]

This kinda makes me sad.

 

[Petypet]

So true. You know the market for PhD's isn't so hot when they are resorting to applying for Professional Research Assistant positions paying 32k a year.

While there are other things you can do with a PhD such as research in the private sector, product development, etc., it really depends on the PhD you get.

To the OP, it will be interesting to see how many of those students raise their hands after another year or two.

As a graduating PhD this year, the job market is actually very hot, if you get the PhD in the correct area. Unfortunately, you don't really realize how potentially lucrative a PhD can be if you while in undergrad. Biochem, o-chem, i-chem, product sciences, engineering, all have jobs for hire. Assistant positions, paying around 40k a year (which is what big institutions like Ohio State start at, smaller private colleges start at 50k) are because the job is nothing more than a high school teacher. Most assistant positions don't come with a lab, and the gig is to teach and only teach. To set up a lab, you need a good idea, and a source of funding past the initial "start up fee." If you want to stay in academia, where less money is to be made, but potentially more glory in the publishing realm, then competition is more competitive (but nothing more than is for a good medical specialty). However, private jobs are at a premium, look at any RnD company, they have numerous jobs available, most starting out at 60-70 k. While I am applying to medical school this fall, I could, with relative ease, find a job that would have a starting salary of 70-80k, which will probably max out at 120-140k.

Furthermore, the US is not producing enough US born PhDs. 3/4ths of my class are international, which is fine, but why educate someone that will leave the country to benefit another country's economy. That is my problem, but nonetheless, there is nothing wrong with grad school if you want to have an enjoyable 4-6 DEBT FREE years, plus getting a degree that nearly doubles your salary after getting a BA/BS. If you are in it for the money, there are plenty of opportunities for you to get rich, life cushy, and provide for a family. If you want "fame" via publishing and running an academic lab, that is more rigorous, but not impossible for the good student.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

As a graduating PhD this year, the job market is actually very hot, if you get the PhD in the correct area. Unfortunately, you don't really realize how potentially lucrative a PhD can be if you while in undergrad. Biochem, o-chem, i-chem, product sciences, engineering, all have jobs for hire. Assistant positions, paying around 40k a year (which is what big institutions like Ohio State start at, smaller private colleges start at 50k) are because the job is nothing more than a high school teacher. Most assistant positions don't come with a lab, and the gig is to teach and only teach. To set up a lab, you need a good idea, and a source of funding past the initial "start up fee." If you want to stay in academia, where less money is to be made, but potentially more glory in the publishing realm, then competition is more competitive (but nothing more than is for a good medical specialty). However, private jobs are at a premium, look at any RnD company, they have numerous jobs available, most starting out at 60-70 k. While I am applying to medical school this fall, I could, with relative ease, find a job that would have a starting salary of 70-80k, which will probably max out at 120-140k.

Furthermore, the US is not producing enough US born PhDs. 3/4ths of my class are international, which is fine, but why educate someone that will leave the country to benefit another country's economy. That is my problem, but nonetheless, there is nothing wrong with grad school if you want to have an enjoyable 4-6 DEBT FREE years, plus getting a degree that nearly doubles your salary after getting a BA/BS. If you are in it for the money, there are plenty of opportunities for you to get rich, life cushy, and provide for a family. If you want "fame" via publishing and running an academic lab, that is more rigorous, but not impossible for the good student.

For the private research industry it is very hard to get a job with a Phd. And usually they only want people with their masters. Then you start 50-60k and then you might max out at 70-80k after 20 years or so. Getting a Phd usually hurts your chances with a private career industry. Also you can still get in debt by having a PhD since you get paid like 17,000-22,000. Also in PhD you are teaching and working so you better get paid.

 

[Parts Unknown]

As a graduating PhD this year, the job market is actually very hot, if you get the PhD in the correct area.

Something tells me the OP's introductory biology class isn't heavily populated with engineering students.

The problem with a biomedical PhD is as everyone says: massive overproduction relative to the number of jobs and research dollars available. As those same premeds eventually weed down over the next four years I am willing to be that PhD interest will increase, as students consider it an acceptable alternative to medical school with a less competitive entry route. And thus the cycle of overproduction will begin anew.

 

[Dannyw]

As a graduating PhD this year, the job market is actually very hot, if you get the PhD in the correct area. Unfortunately, you don't really realize how potentially lucrative a PhD can be if you while in undergrad. Biochem, o-chem, i-chem, product sciences, engineering, all have jobs for hire. Assistant positions, paying around 40k a year (which is what big institutions like Ohio State start at, smaller private colleges start at 50k) are because the job is nothing more than a high school teacher. Most assistant positions don't come with a lab, and the gig is to teach and only teach. To set up a lab, you need a good idea, and a source of funding past the initial "start up fee." If you want to stay in academia, where less money is to be made, but potentially more glory in the publishing realm, then competition is more competitive (but nothing more than is for a good medical specialty). However, private jobs are at a premium, look at any RnD company, they have numerous jobs available, most starting out at 60-70 k. While I am applying to medical school this fall, I could, with relative ease, find a job that would have a starting salary of 70-80k, which will probably max out at 120-140k.

Furthermore, the US is not producing enough US born PhDs. 3/4ths of my class are international, which is fine, but why educate someone that will leave the country to benefit another country's economy. That is my problem, but nonetheless, there is nothing wrong with grad school if you want to have an enjoyable 4-6 DEBT FREE years, plus getting a degree that nearly doubles your salary after getting a BA/BS. If you are in it for the money, there are plenty of opportunities for you to get rich, life cushy, and provide for a family. If you want "fame" via publishing and running an academic lab, that is more rigorous, but not impossible for the good student.

A friend of mine with a BS in EE just got a job making 80k+ and much more when you consider benefits.

 

[muhali3]

A friend of mine with a BS in EE just got a job making 80k+ and much more when you consider benefits.

Yeah engineering degrees are pretty solid; probably the quickest way to make a good living straight out of undergrad.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Yeah engineering degrees are pretty solid; probably the quickest way to make a good living straight out of undergrad.

Geology + masters in petroleum geology = $$$$$

 

[MightyMoose]

Yeah engineering degrees are pretty solid; probably the quickest way to make a good living straight out of undergrad.

I would say engineering is probably the most lucrative degree you can get in undergrad. I'm sure there are a few other good ones, but engineering is usually a solid choice, financially speaking, if you aren't interested in pursuing graduate education.

 

[orthomyxo]

Getting a PhD takes a lot of time and a ton of work. Not to mention that once you have it, what you're going to do with it is not obvious. With an MD/DO you are (most likely) going to practice medicine, period.

 

[nabeel76]

So I TA a very large introductory biology course at my university. Today the Professor introduced me to the class of about 300 freshmen and sophomores. I decided to break the ice by asking everyone their majors which were mostly biological sciences and what they wanted to do. When I asked who wanted to go to grad school, literally maybe 5 or 6 out of the 300 students raised their hands....When I asked who wanted to go to medical or dental school every freakin body shot their hand in the air. The professor kind of choked on his coffee and was like well how many of you are considering a PhD if you don't get into medical school? Maybe another two or three people raised their hands. The professor was like "wow".

It seems like everybody around me wants to go to medical school and nobody wants to get a PhD anymore. Even the kids who want to get a PhD nowadays insist on MD/PhDs (even though some of them are really just gunning MD only deep down inside).

So my question is: What the heck is wrong with grad school????? Why doesn't any of this country's youth want to get a PhD anymore? We all have our favorite professors, and so why don't more of us idolize to get a PhD? I know too many kids who look down on students who want to get PhDs and even look at research and academics as a dead end pathway.

Is it prestige? money? lifestyle? ....?

I think the fact that it was an intro bio class makes a huge difference in the results when asking that question. If it had been an upper level bio class, or a class composed of chem, or physics majors, you would most likely get different results.

Students in intro bio classes are largely there to satisfy the premedical prereqs. A lot of them, including myself when I was at that level, do not really understand what science is yet, nor do they know that they have an intrest in it yet.

In my case - by the time I got to upper level courses, I not only developed a passion for bio, but also chemistry and physics. So much that I decided to do a second degree in Chemistry, and am now also completing a Masters in Biochemistry before I apply to med school. Had I more time (older non-trad) I would also love to do a Ph.D in the physical sciences but I am getting old and medicine is still where my heart is at.

 

[Narmerguy]

I definitely think the US is not producing enough scientists. Nearly every grad student in my school is international. It is for good reason too. PhDs are treated like crap in many job markets. Why go through all that when you can make more as a plumber? (not saying they're all skipping to plumbing).

I myself wanted to pursue a PhD until I talked to more and more professors and found out the reality of what it entails.

 

[integralx2]

Geology + masters in petroleum geology = $$$$$

petroleum engineering yes (starting salary is 100k ) not petroleum geology.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

petroleum engineering yes (starting salary is 100k ) not petroleum geology.

Geologists that specialize in petroleum related geology make a lot of money.

 

[nabeel76]

Geologists that specialize in petroleum related geology make a lot of money.

Yeah so do chemists that specialize in fuel and petroleum chemistry but out of all the petroluem related fields petroleum engineers on average make the most money.

 

[Electronegative]

If someone asks about my plans after college I always say grad school and never mention that I'm pre-med. I'm also planning to get master's degree(not smp/mph) if I don't make it the first cycle I apply.

 

[Perrotfish]

I would say engineering is probably the most lucrative degree you can get in undergrad. I'm sure there are a few other good ones, but engineering is usually a solid choice, financially speaking, if you aren't interested in pursuing graduate education.

Engineers start fast, but many of them have problems mid career. Technical knowledge gets outdated and it's hard to justify paying and old engineer twice as much as a new engineer. I think it's definitely the best degree you can get in undergrad, but it doesn't offer anything nearly like the the security that medicine does.

 

[IvyHopeful20]

I definitely think the US is not producing enough scientists. Nearly every grad student in my school is international. It is for good reason too. PhDs are treated like crap in many job markets. Why go through all that when you can make more as a plumber? (not saying they're all skipping to plumbing).

I myself wanted to pursue a PhD until I talked to more and more professors and found out the reality of what it entails.

It's not a matter of production. Most programs do give strong preference to US applicants.

Even if the law were changed tomorrow so that only US citizens and permanent residents were allowed to enroll in US PhD programs, we'd still be producing a glutton of PhDs unless we increased research funding. And US spends by far the most in research, compared to others.

It's way too brutal a competition. The cutthroat competition for PhD starts when you graduate, not when you are an undergrad. It's the opposite of premeds, but much worse because now you've spent an extra five years on a degree and are pretty set on this path. It's just unfair to a lot of bright students who will simply not be able to get a job in academia due to the 100:1 odds that are against them. You think it's painstaking to get into med school - try spending five years in a PhD program, then six years in a post-doc and then coming up against fifty people who all went to the ivy league for one assistant professorship opening up at State U. It's not pretty.

I've seen job openings where there are 30 people with R01 grants, for one job. That means 29 people with R01 grants got rejected. That means, these people are literally bringing guaranteed $$ to the university, and yet the university cannot hire them!

Many universities simply see PhD students as educated cheap labor. It's unfair because many students simply don't go into it with the knowledge they should.

Why am I also getting a PhD then? I'm a glutton for punishment I guess and because I can't see myself doing anything but biomedical research. But it's not fun to contemplate a permanent $40k job after 10 years of post-graduate training. And these are smart, smart people. Some of my friends from my major (math) are getting PhDs now - mostly in math or physics, and they are by far the smartest, most intelligent people I've ever encountered. It breaks my heart that they face such an uphill battle and that many of them will not be rewarded for their efforts. They do it because that's the only thing they can see themselves doing. They are smart enough to easily make three to five times that in any other field if they wanted.

 

[Ischemic]

Easy, research is unfulfilling with too many experiments that don't work. You waste time repeating **** over and over again to get your paper rejected by some hardass reviewer. Not to mention you make **** money 5-6 years PhD, 3 years for a postdoc and some people do another postdoc after that. Then if you're lucky you go into industry but with the current economy there's no hiring. At least in medicine after residency you make decent money and there's never a problem finding a job that pays decently well.

 

[surftheiop]

Disagree. If you get a PhD in the hard sciences, where can you work? In many of the hard sciences, academia is the only legitimate option and the issue there is 50:1 in terms of applicants vs. openings. Unfortunately, that's the harsh reality.

Pretty much any company that produces any physical products....

 

[masterwares]

Idk. I like teaching and I've always looked into it as perhaps becoming a teacher within medicine, something like a med school prof, anatomy professor, something like that after I get my MD.

 

[IvyHopeful20]

Idk. I like teaching and I've always looked into it as perhaps becoming a teacher within medicine, something like a med school prof, anatomy professor, something like that after I get my MD.

Generally, to teach basic sciences you need to get a PhD and do research. They generally don't hire people who aren't also full time researchers bringing in the $$.

 

[Kimaris]

What is so BAD about Grad School??

The idea of spending over ten years in college only to make less than 60K a year.

 

[PhDGrad]

I'm about to finish up my PhD in Biochemistry and though I'd offer my opinion (someone on this site brought this page to my attention.)

You CAN make very good money with a PhD. An industry job with a PhD in Statistics will likely start at $85-90k. My friend recently got hired as a Statistician with a huge pharma company. He works 37.5 hours/week (more on some weeks), has no graduate school debt, and told me the job is pretty low stress. With extra consulting projects on the side and one-night-a-week adjuncting at a local university, he pulls in about $140k his first year, for about 50 hours/week. Again, little to no stress and no debt.

I have three offers currently with my PhD in Biochemistry, two from pharma companies, one in RnD for a biotech company. The offers are about 72k, 78k, and 84k although the 84k offer is in the northeast where the cost of living is outrageous. Within two years, I should make about 100k, and I have ZERO debt from grad school. These are all 40hr/wk, 9-5 jobs. My uncle was a senior biochemist for an international pharma company, who has since assumed a split management/research role, and he earns 220k + bonuses. He also can work from home on Fridays and gets to go to Asia for free two times a year (he brings his wife with him for free too.)

Other good money-making PhDs are Industrial Engineering, Operations Research, and Biomedial Engineering.

The point of this is not to brag, but rather point out that if you are willing to work in the private sector with a Science/Math/Stats PhD, you can easily make six figures around the age of 28-30. Also, there are plenty of jobs, especially near major metro areas. PhD earnings get a bad rap from Academic salaries, which for the amount of work and effort required, are absolutely crap.

Sure, being a doctor may pay more, but the stress, debt, responsibility, and future uncertainty (regarding government policy) should be taken into account too.

Edit: One more point -- PhD programs are generally 5 years in length, maybe 6 if you get held up. Again, debt free. I have yet to hear of a 10 year program, unless you do a post-doc (not required for industry positions.)

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

I'm about to finish up my PhD in Biochemistry and though I'd offer my opinion (someone on this site brought this page to my attention.)

You CAN make very good money with a PhD. An industry job with a PhD in Statistics will likely start at $85-90k. My friend recently got hired as a Statistician with a huge pharma company. He works 37.5 hours/week (more on some weeks), has no graduate school debt, and told me the job is pretty low stress. With extra consulting projects on the side and one-night-a-week adjuncting at a local university, he pulls in about $140k his first year, for about 50 hours/week. Again, little to no stress and no debt.

I have three offers currently with my PhD in Biochemistry, two from pharma companies, one in RnD for a biotech company. The offers are about 72k, 78k, and 84k although the 84k offer is in the northeast where the cost of living is outrageous. Within two years, I should make about 100k, and I have ZERO debt from grad school. These are all 40hr/wk, 9-5 jobs. My uncle was a senior biochemist for an international pharma company, who has since assumed a split management/research role, and he earns 220k + bonuses. He also can work from home on Fridays and gets to go to Asia for free two times a year (he brings his wife with him for free too.)

Other good money-making PhDs are Industrial Engineering, Operations Research, and Biomedial Engineering.

The point of this is not to brag, but rather point out that if you are willing to work in the private sector with a Science/Math/Stats PhD, you can easily make six figures around the age of 28-30. Also, there are plenty of jobs, especially near major metro areas. PhD earnings get a bad rap from Academic salaries, which for the amount of work and effort required, are absolutely crap.

Sure, being a doctor may pay more, but the stress, debt, responsibility, and future uncertainty (regarding government policy) should be taken into account too.

Edit: One more point -- PhD programs are generally 5 years in length, maybe 6 if you get held up. Again, debt free. I have yet to hear of a 10 year program, unless you do a post-doc (not required for industry positions.)

You will not get a 30k raise in 2 years working 40 hours a week.

Also your friend is doing well but he is an exception. Sure you can make good money with a PhD but it is not as likely with a professional degree and many private positions in research want 5-10 years of experience.


Also you could get a PharmD and make 110K plus a year and do research. Yes you will have debt but it lasts 4 years and if you live on the same amount of money one makes in gradschool they can pay it off in 2 years. Many Pharms also work 40 hours a week.

 

[PhDGrad]

You will not get a 30k raise in 2 years working 40 hours a week.

Also your friend is doing well but he is an exception. Sure you can make good money with a PhD but it is not as likely with a professional degree and many private positions in research want 5-10 years of experience.


Also you could get a PharmD and make 110K plus a year and do research. Yes you will have debt but it lasts 4 years and if you live on the same amount of money one makes in gradschool they can pay it off in 2 years. Many Pharms also work 40 hours a week.

With bonuses and annual raises, the pay gets pretty close to 100k within a few years, assuming a starting salary of around 75k.

Also my friend is definitely not an exception for Statistics PhD salaries. I don't understand what the argument is here; I was just pointing out that a hard science PhD does not reduce one to fighting for a 50k/year academic position against 200 other applicants. As I even mentioned, physician's annual salaries are higher (so are lawyers, dentists, etc...), but if you really want to get a science PhD, don't let the money factor stop you; you can earn a comfortable living with a PhD and if you get creative in taking side projects and adjuncting, you can do very well. But again, there are other fields that pay more.

Now that I looked through these posts more carefully, judging by what you wrote above,

"For the private research industry it is very hard to get a job with a Phd. And usually they only want people with their masters. Then you start 50-60k and then you might max out at 70-80k after 20 years or so. Getting a Phd usually hurts your chances with a private career industry. Also you can still get in debt by having a PhD since you get paid like 17,000-22,000. Also in PhD you are teaching and working so you better get paid."

you have no clue what you are talking about. It's (false) information like this that dissuades Americans from wanting to pursue science PhDs. And then people wonder why all our top science and math graduate schools are mostly filled with foreign students.

 

[SJ17]

Our professor asked us the same thing on my first day of Bio in my first semester. The best part was as 200+ kids had their hands up after the question about medical school, he said "well the facts are that less than 3% of you will make it."

I don't think I'll ever forget the painfully hilarious collective silence as all the hands slowly fell down.

My prof said the same thing on the first day of bio

 

[URHere]

While the job prospects can dissuade many people from considering PhD programs, I think it should be mentioned that the nature of graduate school itself is a turn-off for many people.

Graduate school is, in many ways, an exercise in stubborn endurance. With medical school, at least you know how many years to plan into your life for training. You generally know what to expect, and when to expect it - knowing the exact date when a horrible clerkship rotation will end or when you will ultimately graduate can make a big difference in terms of stress management.

Graduate school is different. Will your thesis take you 3 years? 6? 10? You really have no way of knowing, and you have to come to terms with the fact that you may end up stuck in the program (even if your research is rock solid) simply because of committee disagreement or department politics. It can also be nerve-wracking to know that if your lab loses funding or switches states, you can be forced to essentially start over (or to move out of state for an indetermined period of time). Even if all outside factors are in your favor, the research itself can be brutal. Temporary depression, cynicism, and hopelessness are the one constant I've seen between most of the PhD students I've known.

Obviously, I think that this is all worth it in the long term, but it is a brutal path and it isn't right for everyone.