What is so BAD about Grad School??

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XViCOAu6UC0

One of the post-docs in my lab showed me this. He says that the Simpsons hit the nail on the head here 😛

This made my day 😉

 

[Dr Love]

No we are not producing too many scientists. Honestly there's no such thing as too many bright scientists who can research and figure out and make a road towards the future. The problem is simply that science doesn't pay. America is getting stupider, too many people aspire for millions in investment banking and law. Lets go make millions through our using our minds.

What the...?

The salary a profession gets is determined by supply and demand. If science doesn't pay, it is because there is more supply than demand. So obviously we are producing too many scientists. Things would be a lot better if 90% of PhD programs shut down.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

What the...?

The salary a profession gets is determined by supply and demand. If science doesn't pay, it is because there is more supply than demand. So obviously we are producing too many scientists. Things would be a lot better if 90% of PhD programs shut down.

You notice that the word salary never comes up in my post? There is an infinite demand for advancement. There is no capacity for it. So as such using simple economic theme's such as supply and demand will not work for this topic. Addressing salary, well competition is your friend. It drives down prices and make's the whole advancement of the human race thing a little bit easier funding-wise.
Btw, shutting down 90% of PhD programs? Really now? Open a bigger can of worms my friend.

 

[Diallelus]

Even if you don't care about salary scientists need a source of funding to be able to do any meaningful research, and funding sources are both finite and relatively small. Therefore you can certainly have too many scientists: any scientist w/out enough funding to have a viable lab is useless. I have to agree with Dr Love. There's no reason PhDs should be teaching CC bio101 classes that I could teach just as well with a BS in biology.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Even if you don't care about salary scientists need a source of funding to be able to do any meaningful research, and funding sources are both finite and relatively small. Therefore you can certainly have too many scientists: any scientist w/out enough funding to have a viable lab is useless. I have to agree with Dr Love. There's no reason PhDs should be teaching CC bio101 classes that I could teach just as well with a BS in biology.

However you're talking about sole biology PhD's. I'm talking about every kind. Even then if you have a PhD in immunology then you're going to get a job in the private sector research. That however is not the case if your specialty is evolutionary biology or physiology for example.
I will agree that there is a lack of funding. I also agree that provides a limiting factor for us. But fundamentally to say we have enough scientists? I find that to be an extremely stagnant view point when you look at the broad spectrum of human development.

 

[Reaction]

So I TA a very large introductory biology course at my university. Today the Professor introduced me to the class of about 300 freshmen and sophomores. I decided to break the ice by asking everyone their majors which were mostly biological sciences and what they wanted to do. When I asked who wanted to go to grad school, literally maybe 5 or 6 out of the 300 students raised their hands....When I asked who wanted to go to medical or dental school every freakin body shot their hand in the air. The professor kind of choked on his coffee and was like well how many of you are considering a PhD if you don't get into medical school? Maybe another two or three people raised their hands. The professor was like "wow".

It seems like everybody around me wants to go to medical school and nobody wants to get a PhD anymore. Even the kids who want to get a PhD nowadays insist on MD/PhDs (even though some of them are really just gunning MD only deep down inside).

So my question is: What the heck is wrong with grad school????? Why doesn't any of this country's youth want to get a PhD anymore? We all have our favorite professors, and so why don't more of us idolize to get a PhD? I know too many kids who look down on students who want to get PhDs and even look at research and academics as a dead end pathway.

Is it prestige? money? lifestyle? ....?

I wouldn't mind getting a PhD if I was going into research. I think part of the reason why people look down on it is that you barely make any money when your in grad school and you are basically used in a sense by the professor.

 

[jvesco22]

Your were TAing an intro bio class which probably means it was mostly freshman. You're talking about mainly 17,18, and 19yr olds who haven't been exposed to research or phd's. When you're young and someone asks you what you want to be when you grow up, you say things like doctor, lawyer, police officer, etc...not "I want to get my phd."

 

[Parts Unknown]

I'm about to finish up my PhD in Biochemistry and though I'd offer my opinion (someone on this site brought this page to my attention.)

You CAN make very good money with a PhD. An industry job with a PhD in Statistics will likely start at $85-90k. My friend recently got hired as a Statistician with a huge pharma company. He works 37.5 hours/week (more on some weeks), has no graduate school debt, and told me the job is pretty low stress. With extra consulting projects on the side and one-night-a-week adjuncting at a local university, he pulls in about $140k his first year, for about 50 hours/week. Again, little to no stress and no debt.

I have three offers currently with my PhD in Biochemistry, two from pharma companies, one in RnD for a biotech company. The offers are about 72k, 78k, and 84k although the 84k offer is in the northeast where the cost of living is outrageous. Within two years, I should make about 100k, and I have ZERO debt from grad school. These are all 40hr/wk, 9-5 jobs. My uncle was a senior biochemist for an international pharma company, who has since assumed a split management/research role, and he earns 220k + bonuses. He also can work from home on Fridays and gets to go to Asia for free two times a year (he brings his wife with him for free too.)

Congratulations, but things are very different the further you stray from engineering, chemistry, mathematics, and hard science. Academic biomedical research gotten itself into a vicious cycle of relying on cheap grad student labor to compete for limited funding dollars. This drives up both PhD production and future competition. Private biomed is maturing but still a toddler. There simply isn't the capacity to absorb all the grads each year. It's a real mess.

Also, a lot of people do not go into research with the idea of joining a pharma or biotech company. Many folks still find romance in the alluring (although increasingly scarce) prospect of being driven by intellectual curiosity rather than generating useful products for the marketplace. When you go into industry you will likely be handed projects to work on rather than any sort of creative freedom. That's great for some, but anathema to others.

Edit: One more point -- PhD programs are generally 5 years in length, maybe 6 if you get held up. Again, debt free. I have yet to hear of a 10 year program, unless you do a post-doc (not required for industry positions.)

Again, your experience does not translate into biomedical PhD training. My chemist friends did indeed get out of their chemistry PhD programs in 3-5, but the average in my grad school's biomed program was 6 years (and it wasn't exactly an outlier). Furthermore, with the exception of the industrial toxicologists, a postdoc is virtually required to advance. This is how people end up in their 30's without a real job.

 

[Petypet]

I wouldn't mind getting a PhD if I was going into research. I think part of the reason why people look down on it is that you barely make any money when your in grad school and you are basically used in a sense by the professor.

Why the heck do you need money in grad school? I live on 26k a year stipend, free tuition, and will get a "free" PhD after 4 years. When you are working 60-70 hours a week, you don't have much time to spend more than 26k years worth of money. That aside, PhDGrad really hit it on the head. You CAN make good money in industry with a PhD in most sciences. Like he said, he had offers of what... 70k starting. It is realistic for that salary to hit 100k after 2-4 years company experience. In addition that 70k probably includes a car, relocation, insurance, etc. For 40-45 hours per week, after 4 years 100k is very solid, regardless of the job. One thing a lot of people don't realize is the PhD isn't always a "research" degree. Sure in academia, you teach and run a lab, and publish or perish, but in industry you with a PhD, more often then not you become some sort of manager.

It really seems like there is a lot of misconceptions from a lot of people that have never gone to grad school to get their PhD, or people who have no clue about the actual job market for PhDs. If you want a good degree, and want a job that may be interesting meanwhile provides a comfortably standard of living, then getting a PhD is for you. There is nothing wrong with going to graduate school as a means to an end. It is an endurance test, but the smart and studious student will get through it no problem.

 

[Petypet]

Again, your experience does not translate into biomedical PhD training. My chemist friends did indeed get out of their chemistry PhD programs in 3-5, but the average in my grad school's biomed program was 6 years (and it wasn't exactly an outlier). Furthermore, with the exception of the industrial toxicologists, a postdoc is virtually required to advance. This is how people end up in their 30's without a real job.

A post doc is not necessary to advance at all, if your goal is only to get a decent job. Staying in academia, yes, a post doc is required and for some that is their ultimate goal and underlining interest. However, being in a PhD program, I can say with high confidence that over 80% of my lab (30 people) less than 1/4th will go in to a post doc position. I imagine the same ratio is true for other labs in my department, chemistry and biochemistry. More obscure and specialized degrees may have more strict requirements for advancing but from what I have encountered isn't true for chemistry, biochem, molecular biology, genetics, mostly the physical and biological sciences.

I find it hard to believe that two people in completely different situations, myself and PhDgrad are getting degrees in biochemistry and both have had starting offers in excess of 70k/year, if the market wasn't very good.

 

[Parts Unknown]

A post doc is not necessary to advance at all, if your goal is only to get a decent job. Staying in academia, yes, a post doc is required and for some that is their ultimate goal and underlining interest. However, being in a PhD program, I can say with high confidence that over 80% of my lab (30 people) less than 1/4th will go in to a post doc position.

So you are saying that less than 25% of the people in your lab will stay in academia. Interesting.

 

[Parts Unknown]

I find it hard to believe that two people in completely different situations, myself and PhDgrad are getting degrees in biochemistry and both have had starting offers in excess of 70k/year, if the market wasn't very good.

The market appears okay because you have both chosen a field (biochem) with available industry jobs that you find acceptable. That simply isn't the landscape in other areas.

 

[IvyHopeful20]

So you are saying that less than 25% of the people in your lab will stay in academia. Interesting.

The actual number will probably be much, much less. The higher up you go in terms of school reputation, the more likely people will stay in academia, but even in the best case scenarios, there simply aren't enough academic jobs to satisfy the enormous demand.

Biochemistry had industry demand - many many others do not. 70k is ridiculously low though, with a 4 year Computer Science degree, you can start around 65k in the city, and you'll be making a lot more than that after 5 years of experience.

 

[Parts Unknown]

but even in the best case scenarios, there simply aren't enough academic jobs to satisfy the enormous demand.

That's what I'm getting at. But thank you for interjecting.

 

[IvyHopeful20]

I was agreeing with you 🙂.

 

[proudtobeamom]

When I started the phd program in neuroscience in one of the top universities all I wanted was to understand how the brain functions (and malfunctions). I joined the lab of an assistant prof who had a grant for another year. Initially everything was picture perfect; I set up couple of new techniques, had a cool project in mind that also my PI liked, I did very well in qualifiers etc. Then everything changed... The PI never got another grant, eventually she started panicking about the upcoming tenure reviews, and started pushing us harder every week. Desperate to get more publications, she forced me to keep working on the stupid rotation project I started initially and I never got to start doing the project I came up with. Of course I had no choice but proposing a dissertation that I truly hated (and told her that and her reply was "I don't understand why you always try to do something else but not this very interesting project"). To make matters worse, I got pregnant while on birth control and me and my partner decided to keep our baby. The PI did not like my decision because the baby was going to steal my valuable research time. She literally told me that I was ending my career of becoming a top scientist since no big name PIs would hire me with a toddler for a post-doc. I never enjoyed pregnancy like most moms. I never had the time to plan anything for my baby or to keep pregnancy journals or to think about possible baby names (i accepted the name my partner wanted without even suggesting one myself). I worked until I delivered (with carpal tunnel syndrome and swollen ankles). Still, my PI was complaining that my performance went down and i should be doing more. She even complained to one of the program directors. After giving birth I went back to the lab after 4 weeks of leave (4weeks are not enough btw, your baby is worth more and deserves more). For the first few weeks I was working approximately 6 hours per day. The she told that I wasn't progressing at an acceptable pace and she will talk to the program directors again. I didn't know what to do.... I thought about complaining to the university about the issue or file a discrimination complaint and possibly even sue her (and the program). Then I thought that those actions would probably make things worse. I agreed with whatever she said for a while (such as working 6-7 days full time but I started to get sick so often. I couldn't even take most medications because I chose to breastfeed.
One day I decided to quit. I realized that I can't take it anymore and I told her I am leaving with a masters. I did all the paperwork and morphed my dissertation committee into a thesis committee, my recently accepted first author paper into a thesis, defended the thesis and got the hell out of there after wasting almost 5 precious years as a laboratory slave.
Do I regret my decision to quit? Not at all.
Later I got a job in a (clinically more relevant) research lab and I absolutely love my current project. I feel like whatever we find in our studies will help so many patients and even save lives. I like it so much that I am now planning to go to medical school to become a neurologist so I can help even more people while possibly continuing doing research part time. All I want to do is understand the brain and save lives....

 

[Scarletblack]

So I TA a very large introductory biology course at my university. Today the Professor introduced me to the class of about 300 freshmen and sophomores. I decided to break the ice by asking everyone their majors which were mostly biological sciences and what they wanted to do. When I asked who wanted to go to grad school, literally maybe 5 or 6 out of the 300 students raised their hands....When I asked who wanted to go to medical or dental school every freakin body shot their hand in the air. The professor kind of choked on his coffee and was like well how many of you are considering a PhD if you don't get into medical school? Maybe another two or three people raised their hands. The professor was like "wow".

It seems like everybody around me wants to go to medical school and nobody wants to get a PhD anymore. Even the kids who want to get a PhD nowadays insist on MD/PhDs (even though some of them are really just gunning MD only deep down inside).

So my question is: What the heck is wrong with grad school????? Why doesn't any of this country's youth want to get a PhD anymore? We all have our favorite professors, and so why don't more of us idolize to get a PhD? I know too many kids who look down on students who want to get PhDs and even look at research and academics as a dead end pathway.

Is it prestige? money? lifestyle? ....?

I know with some of the PhDs I work with that they are holed up in their offices having to write grants up all the time to support their grad students. I mean the PhDs are just always swamped with work and all they see all day is the walls in their room and the papers piling up. The only human contact that they get is a student angry about his or her grade or frustrated about other issues.

PhD kinda gets way too ugly at times in the academic world. I'm not too sure about industry.

 

[Kaustikos]

There's nothing wrong with research/grad school. If you're in it for money, then you need a marketable PhD - Pharm/Tox/Biochem. If you want to know science but don't care about money, grad school is great. People really overhype the bad about grad school and completely disregard the bad about medicine like it's not there 🙄

In industry, you make money but you really will be underwhelmed at what you have to know to be there. That and team meetings are the ultimate battle of the egos.

 

[Kaustikos]

Later I got a job in a (clinically more relevant) research lab and I absolutely love my current project. I feel like whatever we find in our studies will help so many patients and even save lives. I like it so much that I am now planning to go to medical school to become a neurologist so I can help even more people while possibly continuing doing research part time. All I want to do is understand the brain and save lives....

Sounds like a similar story to me when I moved to clin pharm. Except I love cancer and that's my focus atm.

 

[Polka Dot]

I guess I'm just the opposite because last year I was planning on medical school, but now it seems more like I will go for a masters or a PhD.