What is the best track for me?

[JessRN]

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Hello-

I'd appreciate some advice. 😉

Background:

I am a 26 year old ICU RN. I received a Bachelor's in 2005, overall GPA 3.00. I will stress that I had a much higher GPA while taking the pre-reqs for nursing school such as A&P, micro, organic chem, and general chem (3.8 gpa for all of the science classes). The lower GPA happened as a result of failing a couple of clinicals due to having an appendectomy toward the end of the nursing program.

I started taking classes toward becoming an NP (Graduate Statistics, Nursing Research, and an APN roles class) and have a 4.0 GPA. I was extremely bored with those classes and finally decided that I am going to take the path toward becoming a physician. It is the only thing that I will find completely fulfilling. I am sure of it.

Anyway, at this point, it has been over 5 years since I've taken those science classes, and they aren't even enough for any type of med school application.

I have considered applying to a post-bac program, but I read that they are not for those who have taken any science classes in the past. Since I have taken science classes in order to become a nurse, am I not qualified to be in a post-bac program?


Does anyone have any advice for me? Thanks! 😀

Jess

 

[thomyorke]

First off, if you don't mind me asking, why do you want to go to medical school? You are starting in a tough spot and it will take you at least a few years to get all of the other pre-reqs out of the way, study for and take the MCAT, raise your GPA, etc. This is a huge committment so you should definitely know what you are getting into!

Another thing to consider is the fact that ADCOMs often look unfavorably upon people who have established (read:trained for) other careers in the healthcare field and suddenly decide to go to medical school. While you may think that your clinical experience will help, your training and background may actually be a disadvantage to your application. There are many threads that you can find here on SDN discussing this topic so I won't go into too much detail here. Regardless, they will want you to have a very compelling reason for this change of heart given the number of highly qualified medical school applicants already out there and the continued and growing need for support staff positions (such as RN's) in the medical field.

Finally, please don't take this the wrong way, but I TA'd a microbiology class for the nursing students in undergrad and it was a far cry from the general/medical microbiology course. The reason that I bring this up is because it is possible that your nursing pre-requisites may actually NOT fulfill pre-medical requirements. I know that the "watered down" gen. chemistry course that the nursing students took at my school was not considered appropriate for medical school. Not saying that this is necessarily the situation in your case but it is something to consider. I would definitely check to see if these pre-requisites that you have completed do fit the pre-med requirements of US medical schools.

To answer your question about post-baccs: In your case you may have to take a post-bacc that is basically designed for someone with none of the pre-medical requirements completed. Some of these programs also offer MCAT prep if you find the right one. There are many such programs and I think that they will certainly be the right choice for you, as opposed to something like an SMP (designed for people with all pre-med req's completed and low GPA). You seem to be intelligent and motivated so I'm sure that you can make it if you put your mind to it. Just be ready to work your tail off! Best of luck.

 

[DrMidlife]

Another thing to consider is the fact that ADCOMs often look unfavorably upon people who have established (read:trained for) other careers in the healthcare field and suddenly decide to go to medical school.

That's ridiculous. Come over to the nontrad forum for an endless series of RN-to-MD threads. RNs become MDs all the time. As do pharmacists, chiropractors, RTs, etc. Is it the most financially sensible career change to make? No. Is it going to be fun for the OP to recover from a 3.0 GPA? No. But there's no basis for claiming that a previous healthcare career is a detriment to med school candidacy.

While you may think that your clinical experience will help, your training and background may actually be a disadvantage to your application.

Also ridiculous. Compare this applicant's exposure and experience to the typical MD applicant who has never been responsible for patient care, much less for paying rent. If the OP has the impression that med schools fall all over themselves to get nurses to join the fold, or that he/she is more knowledgeable than MDs or that med school will be a breeze, that's not about a nursing background, that's immaturity.

There are many threads that you can find here on SDN discussing this topic so I won't go into too much detail here. Regardless, they will want you to have a very compelling reason for this change of heart given the number of highly qualified medical school applicants already out there and the continued and growing need for support staff positions (such as RN's) in the medical field.

I've read those threads too. "Doctor envy" is discouraged; an educated, mature decision to pursue medicine after nursing gets plenty of encouragement. Med school adcoms don't also serve on some committee judging whether nursing staff levels are being affected by MD "recruitment." A good candidate for med school is a good candidate, not a loss to their current industry.

Finally, please don't take this the wrong way, but I TA'd a microbiology class for the nursing students in undergrad and it was a far cry from the general/medical microbiology course. The reason that I bring this up is because it is possible that your nursing pre-requisites may actually NOT fulfill pre-medical requirements. I know that the "watered down" gen. chemistry course that the nursing students took at my school was not considered appropriate for medical school. Not saying that this is necessarily the situation in your case but it is something to consider. I would definitely check to see if these pre-requisites that you have completed do fit the pre-med requirements of US medical schools.

The OP states that he/she is aware that nursing prereqs aren't med school prereqs.

To answer your question about post-baccs: In your case you may have to take a post-bacc that is basically designed for someone with none of the pre-medical requirements completed. Some of these programs also offer MCAT prep if you find the right one. There are many such programs and I think that they will certainly be the right choice for you, as opposed to something like an SMP (designed for people with all pre-med req's completed and low GPA). You seem to be intelligent and motivated so I'm sure that you can make it if you put your mind to it. Just be ready to work your tail off! Best of luck.

Structured formal postbacs for completing med school prereqs are either for those with very high GPAs (Bryn Mawr, Goucher etc) or for URMs (Wake Forest, the UCs, etc). SMPs are for those who have completed the prereqs already. Unless the OP is URM, none of these are going to help him/her. See the GPA enhancement sticky at the top of this forum for programs that will help. Aside from that list, most colleges allow formal/informal postbac study.

The average GPA of an accepted med student is about 3.6, with a 32 on the MCAT. Undergrad GPA is all that matters here: grad work isn't used for comparison. You can't "fix" a low GPA outside Texas fresh start. What you can do is take enough additional undergrad coursework to show a strong upward trend, show strong grades in hard science (prereqs and upper div science), and improve cumulative GPA numbers.

In this case I would recommend doing a 2nd bachelors, because 2 more years of undergrad would nicely cover the med school prereqs, as well as ensuring federal financial aid, registration priority and access to support like dean's letters and advising (usually useless, sometimes not) AND give sufficient time/units to improve that 3.0.

If the OP would be happy as a DO, the 2nd bachelors is probably overkill.

If the OP wants to focus on MD schools, an SMP is also probably needed, because the cumulative GPA will still be low, maybe a 3.33 after 2 more years. This 3.33, with a 32+ MCAT, and an SMP, would put the OP in a position to reasonably apply to MD schools.

Lastly, JessRN, start working on your personal statement now. Use drafts of this as collateral for "working up" faculty recommenders during prereqs. Start working on a financial plan. Collect people who can serve as "adult supervision" and take their feedback seriously (including the stuff I've trashed here). Come back & see us for help along the way.

Best of luck to you.

 

[JessRN]

thomyorke-

To answer your question, I think I’d have to give you a bit of my “story.” Since you asked, though, I’ll be happy to oblige. J

When I was in high school, I didn't even know loans existed for college. I thought medical school- heck, college in general- was only for the “rich kids.” Unfortunately, at that point in my life, I didn’t have the self-confidence to ask about it, either. It didn’t help that my parents weren’t excellent resources on the subject either, being high school graduates. Even though I was an excellent student in high school, I didn’t even learn about student loans until after I sent in my application to the state university, (which I did on a whim because my boyfriend went there) and subsequently spoke with a financial advisor at the school upon acceptance. I will stress again that I am referring to an 18-year-old who didn't have much life experience or confidence. Once in college, an advisor asked me what subjects I liked. I answered music and biology. She handed me a nursing school application, and since I had a 4.0, I got accepted right away. Once I was in the nursing school, I sort of settled with that. I LOVED my science classes. However, I was really disappointed with the fact that they were "intro level" classes. INTRO to Microbiology. INTRO to Organic Chem. I remember vividly how upset I was that my A & P class didn’t even have cadavers. I had to learn everything off of models. While most of my classmates were relieved to not have to deal with cadavers, I felt shafted! I wanted to learn it all, the right way. However, I pushed along. My parents were going through a divorce, and there was a lot of stress I was dealing with. I figured I'd just stick with it and be thankful that I even got into the school of nursing. As a junior, frustrated, I spoke with an advisor regarding pre-med classes. This is where I learned that I sort of got "shafted" by the nursing track. I learned that I would have to re-take all of the “intro” classes in order to take the “real” science classes, therefore postponing graduation by at least a year. As much as I wanted to do it, the anxiety of adding more time and money at that point in my life was too overwhelming. Plus, I had heard from other classmates that my university wasn’t even “prestigious” enough for med schools to accept students from (which was probably wrong, but I was gullible.) So, without going into much more detail, I graduated, became an RN, and started working in an ICU.

I spent 2 years learning how to become a great RN. I can now, with confidence (that I have gained through this profession), say that I succeeded. However, there is a feeling in the pit of my stomach- a void- a need- for more. To know what they (read: physicians) knew. I began thinking about going back to school. I wanted to manage the patients. I wanted to diagnose. I wanted to learn about every part of the body. There was no doubt in my mind that I NEEDED to go back to school. I came here, to this site; scoured the forums. I became quite discouraged when I read that being an RN could somehow hurt my chances of getting into medical school.

I tried to fill the void with APN school. The bottom line is: It didn’t cut it. And it won’t. I know it. At this point in my life, I refuse to settle. I know where I should be, and that is fully managing the patients. Nothing short of becoming a physician will “do.” Might I add, this girl loves school and loves a challenge. My RN friends tease me for being a “dork” because I sit and read neurophysiology books in my free time at work. Some people do crosswords or play computer games, but I study anything I can. 😉

You know how you hear about trans-gendered individuals referring to themselves as “being in the wrong body?” Well, I’ll never understand that specific feeling, but I can relate to that feeling of not being who you know you’re supposed to be. I feel like I’m a doctor in a nurse’s body. I just need someone willing to give me the education to make it official.

One more thing I want to address with you, thomyorke- (by the way, awesome name; Radiohead is my all time favorite band!) You stated that ADCOMs look unfavorably upon those who have established healthcare careers and "suddenly" want to go into medicine. This makes absolutely no sense to me. The final choice to go into medicine is a long process for people like me. It has taken me years to gain the knowledge, confidence, and clinical experience to realize that medicine IS the profession for me. There is no way I will let someone try to convince me that my clinical experience would be a disadvantage to becoming a physician. It just does not make any sense at all. It’s not like I went into nursing school with the plan set to go straight to medical school. I’d agree that seems foolish. However, for me, and for many nurses who become physicians, the decision to go to medical school takes time. Plus, I know what I’m getting myself into much more than I ever could have while I was in college. Four years of taking care of critically ill patients CAN’T hurt my chances of getting into medicine.

 

[JessRN]

I was hoping for a response 😳

 

[jslo85]

thomyorke-

To answer your question, I think I'd have to give you a bit of my "story." Since you asked, though, I'll be happy to oblige. J

When I was in high school, I didn't even know loans existed for college. I thought medical school- heck, college in general- was only for the "rich kids." Unfortunately, at that point in my life, I didn't have the self-confidence to ask about it, either. It didn't help that my parents weren't excellent resources on the subject either, being high school graduates. Even though I was an excellent student in high school, I didn't even learn about student loans until after I sent in my application to the state university, (which I did on a whim because my boyfriend went there) and subsequently spoke with a financial advisor at the school upon acceptance. I will stress again that I am referring to an 18-year-old who didn't have much life experience or confidence. Once in college, an advisor asked me what subjects I liked. I answered music and biology. She handed me a nursing school application, and since I had a 4.0, I got accepted right away. Once I was in the nursing school, I sort of settled with that. I LOVED my science classes. However, I was really disappointed with the fact that they were "intro level" classes. INTRO to Microbiology. INTRO to Organic Chem. I remember vividly how upset I was that my A & P class didn't even have cadavers. I had to learn everything off of models. While most of my classmates were relieved to not have to deal with cadavers, I felt shafted! I wanted to learn it all, the right way. However, I pushed along. My parents were going through a divorce, and there was a lot of stress I was dealing with. I figured I'd just stick with it and be thankful that I even got into the school of nursing. As a junior, frustrated, I spoke with an advisor regarding pre-med classes. This is where I learned that I sort of got "shafted" by the nursing track. I learned that I would have to re-take all of the "intro" classes in order to take the "real" science classes, therefore postponing graduation by at least a year. As much as I wanted to do it, the anxiety of adding more time and money at that point in my life was too overwhelming. Plus, I had heard from other classmates that my university wasn't even "prestigious" enough for med schools to accept students from (which was probably wrong, but I was gullible.) So, without going into much more detail, I graduated, became an RN, and started working in an ICU.

I spent 2 years learning how to become a great RN. I can now, with confidence (that I have gained through this profession), say that I succeeded. However, there is a feeling in the pit of my stomach- a void- a need- for more. To know what they (read: physicians) knew. I began thinking about going back to school. I wanted to manage the patients. I wanted to diagnose. I wanted to learn about every part of the body. There was no doubt in my mind that I NEEDED to go back to school. I came here, to this site; scoured the forums. I became quite discouraged when I read that being an RN could somehow hurt my chances of getting into medical school.

I tried to fill the void with APN school. The bottom line is: It didn't cut it. And it won't. I know it. At this point in my life, I refuse to settle. I know where I should be, and that is fully managing the patients. Nothing short of becoming a physician will "do." Might I add, this girl loves school and loves a challenge. My RN friends tease me for being a "dork" because I sit and read neurophysiology books in my free time at work. Some people do crosswords or play computer games, but I study anything I can. 😉

You know how you hear about trans-gendered individuals referring to themselves as "being in the wrong body?" Well, I'll never understand that specific feeling, but I can relate to that feeling of not being who you know you're supposed to be. I feel like I'm a doctor in a nurse's body. I just need someone willing to give me the education to make it official.

One more thing I want to address with you, thomyorke- (by the way, awesome name; Radiohead is my all time favorite band!) You stated that ADCOMs look unfavorably upon those who have established healthcare careers and "suddenly" want to go into medicine. This makes absolutely no sense to me. The final choice to go into medicine is a long process for people like me. It has taken me years to gain the knowledge, confidence, and clinical experience to realize that medicine IS the profession for me. There is no way I will let someone try to convince me that my clinical experience would be a disadvantage to becoming a physician. It just does not make any sense at all. It's not like I went into nursing school with the plan set to go straight to medical school. I'd agree that seems foolish. However, for me, and for many nurses who become physicians, the decision to go to medical school takes time. Plus, I know what I'm getting myself into much more than I ever could have while I was in college. Four years of taking care of critically ill patients CAN'T hurt my chances of getting into medicine.

I think the strength of your argument will come from your ability to compare what it's like to simply report as opposed to actively managing at patient. Your experience as an RN will undoubtedly come into handy in this regard. A couple things that I would personally stay away from during interviews if you make it that far is emphasizing your RN experience any more than that. Not saying it would but it might be taken as a negative in how you have done such and such because as a physician, one of the main things medical school faculty pride themselves on is turning out quality physicians, not technicians which they often view PA and NPs as. Don't get offended, I'm simply quoting one of my interviewers when we touched on this subject. Any hands on experiences you have on doing certain techniques or making certain calls is something that most likely should be kept to yourself, but I would consider your patient exposure as also another strength in how you experience this and it is this part of helping others that draws you to the field of medicine.

Now then, it's a really long journey for you in how you want to get to even applying for medical school sadly enough. None of your science courses will cut it. I have a couple friends who are also RNs you don't have a Masters right? Guessing you've taken AnP, Microbio and intro to genetics if your prereqs are anything like those of the ones graduating from OHSU's SON. Unfortunately, none of those 3 even qualify for medical prereqs meaning you have to take a year's worth of Ochem and lab, Gen Chem and lab, Physics and lab, and Gen Bio and lab. I think you already know this but laying it out like this I feel is conducive to making you consider how much/fast you want to do this. I simply do not recommend working even part time while taking these classes. edit: Oops I just reread what was written, you've taken a bit, just not the gen bio and physics etc. Ok. Either go with the second bachelors that Dr. Midlife suggested OR go informal post bacc, finish up the prereqs and start hitting the upper div sciences.

Informal route you would basically take the same classes probably at a local university. But the problem would be you would need to also probably add on a few upper div science courses such as Genetics and Microbiology (lol), Toxicology, Biochemistry, Neurophysiology (at least you like it!) etc. Even then, you don't stand out by any other means other than the hard work you put in. Your 3.0 is low, your sGPA seems to be alright. Finish prereqs and go for at least 4 upper div sciences.

So it's really up to you. Can you see yourself quitting your current job to pursue your goals? I mean the other option is getting your Masters and then becoming an NP. If you go the physician route then I'd realistically shoot for D.O. It sounds like you're very open to either side, so if the initials behind your name isn't going to be an issue, going the osteopathic route will undoubtedly make your life easier. Either route you choose will be expensive and hard but good luck and hope this helps.

 

[FruityPineapple]

Unfortunately for you, like many others on this area, the GPA is a bit low. MD schools typically filter out <3.0 science gpa's even if there is a high upward trend. Numbers are more of a requisite for getting in a lot of schools as well.

DO programs are more forgiving of lower GPA's and numbers. Especially for retakes.

Finish your reqs for med school at the local university, study for the MCATS and see where you fall. It will probably let you continue working. Not sure how your hours are right now, but if you wont be able to finish the classes part time, then you should just get in an in/formal post-bacc in the local university and get those done - you can't really apply to some SMP's without them done either.

If you get a 30 on the MCAT, get some good recommendation letters and do fairly well on the new science classes, I think you stand a good shot at a DO program in <1 year - depending on how many more science classes you need to finish.

If that doesn't work, then a SMP will be the next solution after those requisite classes at a post-bacc. I just read the post above as I posted, other good routes as well.

 

[jl lin]

First off, if you don't mind me asking, why do you want to go to medical school? You are starting in a tough spot and it will take you at least a few years to get all of the other pre-reqs out of the way, study for and take the MCAT, raise your GPA, etc. This is a huge committment so you should definitely know what you are getting into!

Another thing to consider is the fact that ADCOMs often look unfavorably upon people who have established (read:trained for) other careers in the healthcare field and suddenly decide to go to medical school. While you may think that your clinical experience will help, your training and background may actually be a disadvantage to your application. There are many threads that you can find here on SDN discussing this topic so I won't go into too much detail here. Regardless, they will want you to have a very compelling reason for this change of heart given the number of highly qualified medical school applicants already out there and the continued and growing need for support staff positions (such as RN's) in the medical field.

Finally, please don't take this the wrong way, but I TA'd a microbiology class for the nursing students in undergrad and it was a far cry from the general/medical microbiology course. The reason that I bring this up is because it is possible that your nursing pre-requisites may actually NOT fulfill pre-medical requirements. I know that the "watered down" gen. chemistry course that the nursing students took at my school was not considered appropriate for medical school. Not saying that this is necessarily the situation in your case but it is something to consider. I would definitely check to see if these pre-requisites that you have completed do fit the pre-med requirements of US medical schools.

To answer your question about post-baccs: In your case you may have to take a post-bacc that is basically designed for someone with none of the pre-medical requirements completed. Some of these programs also offer MCAT prep if you find the right one. There are many such programs and I think that they will certainly be the right choice for you, as opposed to something like an SMP (designed for people with all pre-med req's completed and low GPA). You seem to be intelligent and motivated so I'm sure that you can make it if you put your mind to it. Just be ready to work your tail off! Best of luck.

In reply to the above quote. I think the following should pretty much say it all. WOW.

 

[jl lin]

That's ridiculous. Come over to the nontrad forum for an endless series of RN-to-MD threads. RNs become MDs all the time. As do pharmacists, chiropractors, RTs, etc. Is it the most financially sensible career change to make? No. Is it going to be fun for the OP to recover from a 3.0 GPA? No. But there's no basis for claiming that a previous healthcare career is a detriment to med school candidacy.

Also ridiculous. Compare this applicant's exposure and experience to the typical MD applicant who has never been responsible for patient care, much less for paying rent. If the OP has the impression that med schools fall all over themselves to get nurses to join the fold, or that he/she is more knowledgeable than MDs or that med school will be a breeze, that's not about a nursing background, that's immaturity.

I've read those threads too. "Doctor envy" is discouraged; an educated, mature decision to pursue medicine after nursing gets plenty of encouragement. Med school adcoms don't also serve on some committee judging whether nursing staff levels are being affected by MD "recruitment." A good candidate for med school is a good candidate, not a loss to their current industry.


The OP states that he/she is aware that nursing prereqs aren't med school prereqs.


Structured formal postbacs for completing med school prereqs are either for those with very high GPAs (Bryn Mawr, Goucher etc) or for URMs (Wake Forest, the UCs, etc). SMPs are for those who have completed the prereqs already. Unless the OP is URM, none of these are going to help him/her. See the GPA enhancement sticky at the top of this forum for programs that will help. Aside from that list, most colleges allow formal/informal postbac study.

The average GPA of an accepted med student is about 3.6, with a 32 on the MCAT. Undergrad GPA is all that matters here: grad work isn't used for comparison. You can't "fix" a low GPA outside Texas fresh start. What you can do is take enough additional undergrad coursework to show a strong upward trend, show strong grades in hard science (prereqs and upper div science), and improve cumulative GPA numbers.

In this case I would recommend doing a 2nd bachelors, because 2 more years of undergrad would nicely cover the med school prereqs, as well as ensuring federal financial aid, registration priority and access to support like dean's letters and advising (usually useless, sometimes not) AND give sufficient time/units to improve that 3.0.

If the OP would be happy as a DO, the 2nd bachelors is probably overkill.

If the OP wants to focus on MD schools, an SMP is also probably needed, because the cumulative GPA will still be low, maybe a 3.33 after 2 more years. This 3.33, with a 32+ MCAT, and an SMP, would put the OP in a position to reasonably apply to MD schools.

Lastly, JessRN, start working on your personal statement now. Use drafts of this as collateral for "working up" faculty recommenders during prereqs. Start working on a financial plan. Collect people who can serve as "adult supervision" and take their feedback seriously (including the stuff I've trashed here). Come back & see us for help along the way.

Best of luck to you.

👍 Great response Dr. MidLife.

I will add this though. The four year colleges required Gen Bio I & II, these certainly may be the same as for those that are natural science majors--in fact for A&P and Micro it should be required--and I can't think of any NLN RN programs that do not require those. But it is true that it may depend on the particulars of the program. There's just no reason a nursing major should take any diluted level of gen bio or gen chems. In fact, it's kind of silly.