What is the point of a postdoc?

[TraumaPsych]

I am wondering what a postdoc really offers? If you do a postdoc in a specific area, can you call yourself a specialist in it? Does it look good to do a postdoc rather than a supervised job after graduation?

I am also curious about the average postdoc stipend. I am hoping to make money when I graduate because of loans. Thanks.

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[AbnormalPsych]

I am wondering what a postdoc really offers?

Supervised experience and training, usually in a specialty area.

If you do a postdoc in a specific area, can you call yourself a specialist in it?

Sure

Does it look good to do a postdoc rather than a supervised job after graduation?

For the most part. Also can be helpful in some states for licensure, for ABPP in some areas, etc. It all depends on what you want for your future, but it definitely keeps more doors open.

I am also curious about the average postdoc stipend.

Probably close to double internship for most decent places. Way less than a staff job. Your bank account will still let you know you are a trainee.


My opinion - Most people do a formal postdoc. Sure, it may not be required for things you want to do, if you can get supervised hours elsewhere, but I'd do it as formally as you can. It can only help you in a job search and your future.

 

[Sanman]

This depends on the area of the field you want to work in. It offers a lot if you want to practice neuropsych. It offers little if you want to work in general mental health in a community clinic for the rest of your life. So, what are your goals and can you get licensed without a post-doc in the state you want to live in?

 

[summerbabe]

In addition to what others have said, it can provide a leg up during your early career ventures.

Like if apply to an otherwise competitive job and lack years of licensed experience but did a formal postdoc in that area or sometimes as little as a secondary rotation, you’ll be able to highlight that on your CV.

Lots of institutional jobs like hospitals and VAs seem to give this considerable weight (assuming they value your postdoc site) versus say a bunch of years of private practice experience because a reputable postdoc is founded on evidence based practices and a successful graduate theoretically was formally vetted by qualified supervisors as competent in this area.

Unfortunately, there are some absolutely clueless people in our field and while a postdoc is not a sure fire bet to weed this out, people who complete a reputable postdoc (eg they value further, not absolutely necessary training at some personal financial cost) might give an employer more general confidence.

On a personal note, I felt like my VA postdoc was a significant period of professional growth in terms of confidence (such as when working with licensed professionals in interdisciplinary settings including non mental health staff such as physical medicine MDs) and I was also able to further refine and clarify my professional interests.

My first job after postdoc was a VA acute psychiatry position as the sole unit psychologist. There is no way that I would have been as comfortable jumping right in and giving feedback to the attending psychiatrist, working collaboratively with social workers, setting boundaries, etc without my postdoc year.

Both of these goals could have been met in other routes but I’m thankful that postdoc provided a good and timely opportunity for growth in both areas before I landed in my first job.

But your mileage may vary and everybody’s personal and professional needs differ. For many, a 20-30% paycut compared to a job is not feasible for another year. I haven’t kept up with current postdoc rates but internship stipends have risen significantly in the last 2 years so one would hope that postdocs have as well.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Just popping in to second everything that's been said. For some specialties (e.g., neuropsych, trending in that direction for rehab and forensics), it's a necessity or near-necessity and reflects the current standard for competent practice. They also seem to be pretty important and helpful for folks planning on a research/academic career. For other areas, it's less a requirement and more related to personal career goals.

Regardless, a (good) postdoc, as was said above, offers a structured program for obtaining supervised experience that should meet most or all state licensure requirements. Postdocs also should have formal grievance and related policies to protect trainees (and the program) and most will offer some type of didactics (e.g., grand rounds, seminars). They may allow you to gain experience in settings, populations, and/or interventions and assessments with which you have little or no prior training; and they may provide protected study and/or research time.

Formal postdocs can also make it easier to request verification of training/supervised practice hours years down the line (e.g., when applying for licensure in a new state).

Edit: Forgot to say that from what I've seen, typical pay is in the $45-55k (ish) range.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

Single handedly the most important part of my training in 10 plus years in college/grad school.

 

[WisNeuro]

Single handedly the most important part of my training in 10 plus years in college/grad school.

Likewise, huge developmental gains on fellowship.

 

[cara susanna]

Fellowship gave me specialized training in the area I wanted to, well, specialize in. Also, post doc made me feel confident about being an independent practitioner.

 

[SchoolPsycho]

It was required for my state for licensure, so an easy decision. Equally as important, I selected a post doc that gave me specialty training that has turned into the largest component of my career.

I made about $40k on post doc 8 years ago, which was a fair bit below market rate even then. The skills I learned led to 6 figure income pretty quickly after that.

 

[PsyDr]

The point is to allow for a transition from academic practice to real world practice.

Examples:

1) We are taught to write from an academic perspective. Often that writing style is done to "show your work". That writing style comes across as condescending to referral sources. And it can be horribly risky from a liability perspective. So you have to relearn how to write.
2) Some of the professional services you are taught only work in an academic setting (e.g.,
a. no one really does the Rorschach
b. insurance companies won't let you use achievement testing,
c. group therapy in outpatient settings is rare, unless you're in a hospital or IOP
d. normal middle class people have trouble getting off work to see you. Figure out how to do psychodynamic therapy in that context.
e. those intense clinical formulations? Those attract axis II patients.
3) Most schools have have next to zero training in how to actually bill for your time. Postdoc helps you get minimally familiar with that.
4) It teaches you how to act in a professional setting. You're no longer a student. A lot of the things that were okay for you, are not. No one cares if you "need to process".... you're here to make money and there is a patient waiting for you right now. That outfit won't work. Not speaking in an authoritative manner will kill your referrals. How to handle professional communication is different.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I didnt do a formal postdoc as I just went to work for the local community mental health that I already had some connections with during internship. It has made no difference in my own career path that it was not a formal postdoc. I have tended to work outside of traditional areas that psychologists inhabit though.

 

[ClinicalABA]

I see the term "formal postdoc" used a lot. Anyone care to define that? Is any position where you are recognized as a non-licensed clinician, bill as such, and receive formal supervision to the extent necessary to meet licensure eligibility requirements in some jurisdiction a "formal" postdoc? If not, what is the difference? Is there some registry of "formal postdocs"?

I worked in position(s) following earning my Ph.D. where I received formal supervision. I had the same "official", HR sanctioned job title as other licensed professionals (not using any regulated license-required terms, such as "psychologist") in the same position. Jobs weren't advertised as "postdocs" (or advertised at all, for that matter- I got them through networking and training/clinical connections. My job title wasn't "postdoc," though if anyone asked I would always say "I'm doing my postdoc hours." I was paid based on my experience and the work I did. It was less than others in the same position with more experience, but more than double pre-doc rates (in the 45k+ range, back in the early 2000s). When applying for psych licensure (2 different states) I was able to check the "completed a postdoc" box and have my supervisors sign a form (initial licensure) or just get it accepted as a postdoc (second state, applying with 5+ years of licensure).

As to the OP's question- The biggest practical reason to do a postdoc is that it is a requirement for licensure in many states. You don't know where you will want to or have to end up in the future, so best not to have any barriers to licensure. The biggest clinical reason to do so is that you will (assuming good supervision) refine your existing skills and develop new skills or even new specialty areas of practice. This should translate to offering a better service to your clients. Also, it is a time to potentially develop your professional and business skills beyond what was possible in your grad program, practica, or pre-doctoral internship.

 

[summerbabe]

I see the term "formal postdoc" used a lot. Anyone care to define that? Is any position where you are recognized as a non-licensed clinician, bill as such, and receive formal supervision to the extent necessary to meet licensure eligibility requirements in some jurisdiction a "formal" postdoc? If not, what is the difference? Is there some registry of "formal postdocs"?

When I use the term, I am thinking about a position that is accredited and housed in a training program (even if it's very small scale) that applicants complete a standardized application for. A lot of AMCs, VAs, & counseling centers opportunities would fall under this umbrella.

And that position should have a pre-specified length for training, requirements for successful completion & things like formal remediation & grievance policies that a job offering postdoc supervision may not include in their contract.

In practice, I think there's some wiggle room (programs that aren't officially accredited even if they operates like one, word of mouth application processes versus APPIC UPPD).

 

[WisNeuro]

I see the term "formal postdoc" used a lot. Anyone care to define that? Is any position where you are recognized as a non-licensed clinician, bill as such, and receive formal supervision to the extent necessary to meet licensure eligibility requirements in some jurisdiction a "formal" postdoc? If not, what is the difference? Is there some registry of "formal postdocs"?

I worked in position(s) following earning my Ph.D. where I received formal supervision. I had the same "official", HR sanctioned job title as other licensed professionals (not using any regulated license-required terms, such as "psychologist") in the same position. Jobs weren't advertised as "postdocs" (or advertised at all, for that matter- I got them through networking and training/clinical connections. My job title wasn't "postdoc," though if anyone asked I would always say "I'm doing my postdoc hours." I was paid based on my experience and the work I did. It was less than others in the same position with more experience, but more than double pre-doc rates (in the 45k+ range, back in the early 2000s). When applying for psych licensure (2 different states) I was able to check the "completed a postdoc" box and have my supervisors sign a form (initial licensure) or just get it accepted as a postdoc (second state, applying with 5+ years of licensure).

As to the OP's question- The biggest practical reason to do a postdoc is that it is a requirement for licensure in many states. You don't know where you will want to or have to end up in the future, so best not to have any barriers to licensure. The biggest clinical reason to do so is that you will (assuming good supervision) refine your existing skills and develop new skills or even new specialty areas of practice. This should translate to offering a better service to your clients. Also, it is a time to potentially develop your professional and business skills beyond what was possible in your grad program, practica, or pre-doctoral internship.

More loosely defined in some areas as opposed to others. I'd say formal postdocs IMO are those with set aside policies and procedures for training, grievances, etc. Also, a formalized didactic and supervision processes. As opposed to informal postdocs, which are usually at a PP, with little to no didactics, at least in-house, and usually just meeting the minimum for supervision.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Single handedly the most important part of my training in 10 plus years in college/grad school.

Same. Foundational knowledge was basically in place by fellowship, and then getting two years of specialized work, didactics, supervision, research, etc that was all designed to prepare the fellows. The structure of being a formal post-doc helped too bc the design was meant to meet requirements for boarding. It can be like drinking from a firehose, but it was invaluable for my training. A formal fellowship is recommended for forensic, primary care (a newer speciality area), and a few other areas.

If possible, I'd encourage everyone to pursue a post-doc, though it may not be feasible for all. Licensure tends to be easier and the learning opportunities are more consistent (especially if the program was designed to meet specific boarding guidelines). While some states have removed post-doc hours from licensure, I basically never recommend skipping post-doc training. Just my 2 cents.

 

[SomeGreatNotion]

Agree with what others have posted. I wanted to note more current salary expectations. You should expect or ask to be compensated at the NIH standard level which last year was ~56k.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Agree with what others have posted. I wanted to note more current salary expectations. You should expect or ask to be compensated at the NIH standard level which last year was ~56k.

I agree that NIH levels are a reasonable expectation, although I'd add that some/many settings (e.g., VA) have essentially no room to negotiate salary, as it's dictated on the national level.

 

[texanpsychdoc]

You'll be more than fine if you don't do one. Have fun.

 

[WisNeuro]

You'll be more than fine if you don't do one. Have fun.

It really depends on the OP's situation. There are definitely some situations in which they'll be hamstringing themselves if they don't do one. As others have mentioned, if they want to do general work in a state without a requirement, they'll be fine. But, if they want to work in certain specialty areas, and have access to some very high paying opportunities that require things like board certification, they're setting themselves up for a much harder time or greatly reduced access to those opportunities.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

I think I've said this before on here, but having a dedicated period of significant time where you are completely enmeshed within a specific specialty area, living and breathing it every day, getting specific didactic and in vivo instruction from people who are the best of the best, all while doing the actual work at a pace that allows for you to learn along the way, make mistakes, grow, etc, and also getting to know and become friends with your cohort, living in a new city, have fun, etc. Just invaluable.

 

[cara susanna]

Post doc was a favorite time of my life. I loved every second of it. But I also did a research post doc where I was 25% clinical - that was sweet. Despite that, though, I loved my clinical training so much that it made me decide to abandon a research career and be a clinician in the specialty area I was getting training in. And I got fantastic training that I use everyday now.

 

[PsyDr]

Answer: It is useless to ask "What is the point of a post doc?". You can argue back and forth. But you have to do it. It could be totally pointless, but you have to do it.

*You're in a state that doesn't require it? Doesn't matter, you have to do it. Maybe you or your spouse get a dream job offer in a place that requires a post doc, maybe you or your child gets cancer and have to work from the Cleveland Clinic for a week, maybe you lose your license in your state but there is some weird place like Montana where you can work. It doesn't matter. You have to do a postdoc, to have a backup.

*You're never going to get boarded? Doesn't matter, you have to do a post doc. Notice how medicine requires people to say they are boarded or board eligible? Notice how pharmacists are now boarded? How many other professions are moving that way? How soon until psychology does? What if insurance requires you to be "board eligible"?

*But you need to make money? Don't want to do it? Doesn't matter, you have to do it. You probably had to make money when you were in grad school too.



Asking the "point" of things is a pathway to unhappiness. There's probably no point in anything any of us do. But if you start asking your SO "what's the point of going on dates with you?" Or asking your kid "what's the point of me going to your school events?", you're in for a bad time.

 

[Sanman]

Answer: It is useless to ask "What is the point of a post doc?". You can argue back and forth. But you have to do it. It could be totally pointless, but you have to do it.

*You're in a state that doesn't require it? Doesn't matter, you have to do it. Maybe you or your spouse get a dream job offer in a place that requires a post doc, maybe you or your child gets cancer and have to work from the Cleveland Clinic for a week, maybe you lose your license in your state but there is some weird place like Montana where you can work. It doesn't matter. You have to do a postdoc, to have a backup.

*You're never going to get boarded? Doesn't matter, you have to do a post doc. Notice how medicine requires people to say they are boarded or board eligible? Notice how pharmacists are now boarded? How many other professions are moving that way? How soon until psychology does? What if insurance requires you to be "board eligible"?

*But you need to make money? Don't want to do it? Doesn't matter, you have to do it. You probably had to make money when you were in grad school too.



Asking the "point" of things is a pathway to unhappiness. There's probably no point in anything any of us do. But if you start asking your SO "what's the point of going on dates with you?" Or asking your kid "what's the point of me going to your school events?", you're in for a bad time.

Said more briefly...it is cheap insurance. One less mentioned benefit to a formal post-doc. When you go to apply for a new license and need paperwork 5,9, or how many ever years from now, it is easier to get from a formal vs informal post-doc unless you happen to stay very close with your post-doc supervisor.

 

[Sanman]

I see the term "formal postdoc" used a lot. Anyone care to define that? Is any position where you are recognized as a non-licensed clinician, bill as such, and receive formal supervision to the extent necessary to meet licensure eligibility requirements in some jurisdiction a "formal" postdoc? If not, what is the difference? Is there some registry of "formal postdocs"?

I worked in position(s) following earning my Ph.D. where I received formal supervision. I had the same "official", HR sanctioned job title as other licensed professionals (not using any regulated license-required terms, such as "psychologist") in the same position. Jobs weren't advertised as "postdocs" (or advertised at all, for that matter- I got them through networking and training/clinical connections. My job title wasn't "postdoc," though if anyone asked I would always say "I'm doing my postdoc hours." I was paid based on my experience and the work I did. It was less than others in the same position with more experience, but more than double pre-doc rates (in the 45k+ range, back in the early 2000s). When applying for psych licensure (2 different states) I was able to check the "completed a postdoc" box and have my supervisors sign a form (initial licensure) or just get it accepted as a postdoc (second state, applying with 5+ years of licensure).

As to the OP's question- The biggest practical reason to do a postdoc is that it is a requirement for licensure in many states. You don't know where you will want to or have to end up in the future, so best not to have any barriers to licensure. The biggest clinical reason to do so is that you will (assuming good supervision) refine your existing skills and develop new skills or even new specialty areas of practice. This should translate to offering a better service to your clients. Also, it is a time to potentially develop your professional and business skills beyond what was possible in your grad program, practica, or pre-doctoral internship.

I did similar and I would classify this as an informal post-doc vs a formal post-doc that is setup similar to internship. I do wonder how popular what we did is vs a formal post-doc or no post-doc now. That said, when I made my decision, there was not even a board certification in my area of work. That has changed. The field tends to flip flop on what they want.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I continued to get supervision for one year after getting my doctorate and that has been sufficient to obtain licensure in three states. I was glancing at another state’s laws and saw that they required two hours of supervision per week and I only got one so I always wonder if I moved there would I have to get more supervision or not. What is funny is they accept National Register of HSP credentialing which I have so in theory I would be fine. I’m also in the experienced psychologist exemption in most states so that would probably apply too. Regardless, I plan on staying where I’m at so moot at this point but earlier in my career, mobility was essential.

 

[PsyDr]

Said more briefly...it is cheap insurance. One less mentioned benefit to a formal post-doc. When you go to apply for a new license and need paperwork 5,9, or how many ever years from now, it is easier to get from a formal vs informal post-doc unless you happen to stay very close with your post-doc supervisor.

I guess in that framework, not committing a felony is insurance. What's the point of going to pharmacy school when you can just sell medication that you buy off the internet?

 

[Sanman]

I guess in that framework, not committing a felony is insurance. What's the point of going to pharmacy school when you can just sell medication that you buy off the internet?

The characters in the "The Wire" would agree with you. They didn't even need to buy drugs off the internet. Drug dealers need to sell out in the cold instead of in a nice warm pharmacy. But most retail pharmacists are not aloud to sit down at work. Pros and cons.

That said, I am not sure how not completing a post-doc is a felony if your state does not require it for licensure.

 

[texanpsychdoc]

I did an informal post-doc with a VA....and I am a candidate for ABPP, and I got licensed in multiple states that technically required a post-doc (at that time). I came out okay.

 

[TraumaPsych]

Thank you for the advice. I am in a state without the requirement, but I may move one day and don’t want it to be a future issue. I want to start making money and see PP is the only option to make a decent stipend. It sounds like that won’t be specific enough training, though. I like neuropsych, the VA, and research. I don’t entirely know what I want right now. Maybe I will apply to different sites and see what happens. Board certification is something I want one day.

 

[psychologynbooks]

Post doc was a favorite time of my life. I loved every second of it. But I also did a research post doc where I was 25% clinical - that was sweet. Despite that, though, I loved my clinical training so much that it made me decide to abandon a research career and be a clinician in the specialty area I was getting training in. And I got fantastic training that I use everyday now.

This is a nice POV! I didn’t do as much research as I wanted in grad school but accepted a postdoc that’s split between clinical work/research. It feels like I’m getting a second chance at trying out academia and getting publications

 

[summerbabe]

It feels like I’m getting a second chance at trying out academia and getting publications

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Thank you for the advice. I am in a state without the requirement, but I may move one day and don’t want it to be a future issue. I want to start making money and see PP is the only option to make a decent stipend. It sounds like that won’t be specific enough training, though. I like neuropsych, the VA, and research. I don’t entirely know what I want right now. Maybe I will apply to different sites and see what happens. Board certification is something I want one day.

You may/probably already know, but if you truly want to go the neuropsych route, and particularly if board certification in that is a goal, the two-year fellowship is a must. Other specialties can be a bit more flexible.

As for a "decent stipend," part of it depends on what you consider decent. An employed position as a fully-licensed psychologist would (hopefully) almost always pay more than a postdoc. Those positions, particularly in VA, can definitely be set up to get a person the supervised hours they need for licensure in other states. The postdoc can be more helpful when additional training is desired/needed, and (as was mentioned above) as a good transition from intern/grad student to professional psychologist.

 

[FruitLover2.1]

Just popping in to second everything that's been said. For some specialties (e.g., neuropsych, trending in that direction for rehab and forensics), it's a necessity or near-necessity and reflects the current standard for competent practice. They also seem to be pretty important and helpful for folks planning on a research/academic career. For other areas, it's less a requirement and more related to personal career goals.

Regardless, a (good) postdoc, as was said above, offers a structured program for obtaining supervised experience that should meet most or all state licensure requirements. Postdocs also should have formal grievance and related policies to protect trainees (and the program) and most will offer some type of didactics (e.g., grand rounds, seminars). They may allow you to gain experience in settings, populations, and/or interventions and assessments with which you have little or no prior training; and they may provide protected study and/or research time.

Formal postdocs can also make it easier to request verification of training/supervised practice hours years down the line (e.g., when applying for licensure in a new state).

Edit: Forgot to say that from what I've seen, typical pay is in the $45-55k (ish) range.

Could you share more about why a formal post doc makes it easier than an informal one to request verification down the line? Thank you!

 

[summerbabe]

Could you share more about why a formal post doc makes it easier than an informal one to request verification down the line? Thank you!

A training program will maintain records of their past trainees.

So let’s say you need your postdoc hours or something else verified 10 years later.

Even if everybody who supervised you is now gone, you can still email the new TD and send them whatever forms that you need signed and verified.

Things like formal record banking as well as keeping on top of your stuff is way more important if you’re doing an informal postdoc or getting hours supervised since people may retire, not respond to emails, etc.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Could you share more about why a formal post doc makes it easier than an informal one to request verification down the line? Thank you!

summerbabe beat me to it, but as was said, it basically comes down to maintenance of records and the ability to easily find someone to contact who will verify your hours, especially if/when the people you trained with while there are gone.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

Was revisiting this thread and it got me thinking. Outside of the very direct training benefits fellowship provided me, the actual process of getting licensed itself was such a breeze because of the postdoc hours as well. My colleagues that went straight from internship had to contact like EVERY PRIOR practicum supervisor, get all there hours verified for those years, on top of some other bs. All i had to do was submit one form. That was it. So simple.

 

[FruitLover2.1]

A training program will maintain records of their past trainees.

So let’s say you need your postdoc hours or something else verified 10 years later.

Even if everybody who supervised you is now gone, you can still email the new TD and send them whatever forms that you need signed and verified.

Things like formal record banking as well as keeping on top of your stuff is way more important if you’re doing an informal postdoc or getting hours supervised since people may retire, not respond to emails, etc.

Got it. Thank you!