What is the problem...can one define it? Let your voice be heard...

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Every program believes their program
Is great. Every new chairman believes that under their leadership the program is great and amazing people work there and why would they contract. Some of these places cannot even match yet they are great misunderstood places folks! They quietly soaped warm bodies this year. Everyone knows who you are. See you hellpits in SOAP next year!
 
So do we close them regionally do we close them at places that cant provide comprehensive training in the many things available in radonc, do we close the ones that are small, do we close some slots in larger programs. How do you operationalize this?

Every program cuts 25% permanently. If the program is too small to take the cut, it closes.

This may not be enough. Target # should be around 140/year based on updated analysis by Ben Smith.
 
Great discussion here. Problem is obvious. We are increasing the supply of rad oncs in a world where the need for them is decreasing. Med students with options are voting with their feet. "Leadership" wants to keep their collective heads in the sand and wants to explain it away by citing anything other then the actual reality.

As an example, I will note that Case Western Reserve increased their official resident compliment from 6 to 7 between 2019 to 2021. Case Western did not match in 2019 for 2 and in 2020 for 1 position. They currently have 7 total residents enrolled for 7 total position. There it is in a nut shell.

Every program believes their program

Is great. Every new chairman believes that under their leadership the program is great and amazing people work there and why would they contract. Some of these places cannot even match yet they are great misunderstood places folks! They quietly soaped warm bodies this year. Everyone knows who you are. See you hellpits in SOAP next year!

This is why I have no confidence that the current situation will ever meaningfully change. There are no market forces checking the supply of rad oncs. Specialty will become (has become?) like pharmacy or law school where anyone with a pulse will be let in. This is what the data shows. Only way forward that I can see is to make rad onc a fellowship after Rads or IM (not holding my breath here).
 
Yeah. Let's not.

Hahaha everyone is wrong once and awhile. At least he came out and said it and updated his projections. The fact that leadership used his first projections to expand rapidly and then ignored the updates is on them.
 
Every program cuts 25% permanently. If the program is too small to take the cut, it closes.

This may not be enough. Target # should be around 140/year based on updated analysis by Ben Smith.

I think Simul's last post highlights the problems with this. We have too many spots, but the people with the most power to impact change, chairmen of academic departments, are the people that benefit most from an oversupply of residents and (subsequently) attendings.

So how do we choose which programs to close? A good place to start is to close the programs where med students don't want to be. I'm sorry to say that just because Mississippi, Kansas, Nebraska, and Oklahoma are the only programs in their rural states, does not mean that they deserve to have residency programs. When the gravy train was rolling and everything was competitive, spending 4 years in a rural hell hole for the payoff of being in this specialty was tolerable at best. Forcing a predominantly liberal med student base to spend their indentured servitude in these places is akin to taking advantage of our most vulnerable and it does nothing to solve our geographic maldistribution problem.

Similarly, just because Columbia is a big name institution led by a well known RadOnc doesn't mean it deserves to have a training program. Just because Loma Linda and UC Irvine are in sunny California doesn't mean they should have one either.

The vast majority of small programs should close. This is not just me picking on the little guy or the rural guy. For example, UAB is a great training program despite being in Birmingham, AL. Despite its location, people are willing to train there because it's a good program. Same goes for Mayo in the arctic tundra. However, the other places I mentioned fail to fulfill the academic missions of a radiation oncology training program. They rarely do meaningful research and residents mostly teach themselves. It's hard enough to find people with an interest/talent for teaching at large programs with 10+ faculty, how do you hope to find them at small programs or rural hellpits where no one would be if they had a choice?
 
For Texas:
UTMB and UTSA are already affiliated? with MDACC - seems like an easy merge of residencies. Get rid of Baylor Scott White and Baylor College Medicine. UTSW is okay, but maybe keep spots to 3/year.
 
this has now evolved into the carbon hellpit list. If every program would just not match for like 1 or 2 years, we could just be done with this. Kinda the same way to temporarily fix the western water supply issue, just shower less and don't flush until there's 10 pees in there. If we're gonna fix this, the academics are gonna have to get used to the smell of piss.
 
this has now evolved into the carbon hellpit list. If every program would just not match for like 1 or 2 years, we could just be done with this. Kinda the same way to temporarily fix the western water supply issue, just shower less and don't flush until there's 10 pees in there. If we're gonna fix this, the academics are gonna have to get used to the smell of piss.
I like to think of the hellpits in terms of piss and poop. That is a good currency. In a hellpit when you are pissed on you thank them for the rain. When you have to poop you’d be lucky if you have a shovel to dig a hole. Bury the hellpits like the poop they are and let us get rid of the smell folks! Something stinks and it certainly ain’t denmark 💩
 
I like to think of the hellpits in terms of piss and poop. That is a good currency. In a hellpit when you are pissed on you thank them for the rain. When you have to poop you’d be lucky if you have a shovel to dig a hole. Bury the hellpits like the poop they are and let us get rid of the smell folks!
I think it's time to, ahem, bescumber all programs.
 
I think Simul's last post highlights the problems with this. We have too many spots, but the people with the most power to impact change, chairmen of academic departments, are the people that benefit most from an oversupply of residents and (subsequently) attendings.

There is going to be no consensus about which programs should contract and/or close. This is why across the board cuts are most fair.
 
There is going to be no consensus about which programs should contract and/or close. This is why across the board cuts are most fair.
I think if you were to ask every radiation oncologist to list 20 programs (maybe even 30-40) they think should close, you'd have a pretty clear consensus. Then do across the board cuts from there that get you to your target number. Losing a resident may not seem so bad in the context of potentially losing a program!
 
I think if you were to ask every radiation oncologist to list 20 programs (maybe even 30-40) they think should close, you'd have a pretty clear consensus.

interesting thought experiment. I think if you ask people that graduated in the last 10 years, that would be most accurate. you're going to get less 'accurate' answers I think from some people far removed from training who have gone to the community, live their happy lives, and have little to no clue about most of this stuff.
 
interesting thought experiment. I think if you ask people that graduated in the last 10 years, that would be most accurate. you're going to get less 'accurate' answers I think from some people far removed from training who have gone to the community, live their happy lives, and have little to no clue about most of this stuff.
Agreed.
 
do most rad oncs work 8-5? maybe i am just inefficient but i am pre/post-charting and contouring after hours routinely.
edit: plus the 7AM or 5PM tumor boards.
Depends on workload imo.... As Todd S has alluded to there's a lot of variability in our collective workloads. Carrying 15 a lot different than 30-40
 
I have about 22 on treatment on avg. Generally out by 4-430, and arrive at 730. It's rare I'm not working in between, and I drink my lunch while I work. Come in on Saturdays every now and then just for the peace
 
I have about 22 on treatment on avg. Generally out by 4-430, and arrive at 730. It's rare I'm not working in between, and I drink my lunch while I work. Come in on Saturdays every now and then just for the peace
Case mix dependent too. H&n, lung, brachy etc a lot different than prostate/breast etc
 
Case mix dependent too. H&n, lung, brachy etc a lot different than prostate/breast etc
Haha, no doubt. Usually about 3 hn, 2-3 stage 3 lung, 2-3 rectum, 1-2 gyn, 2 or 3 prostate, 3 to 6 breast, about half to 2/3 rds stage 1, but no brachy. Not Bragging at all, just saying. Keep my followup schedule very light, which saves time. My notes are way more concise than average, though I don't use macros. Not enough prostate, and about half is salvage or node+.
 
I have about 22 on treatment on avg. Generally out by 4-430, and arrive at 730. It's rare I'm not working in between, and I drink my lunch while I work. Come in on Saturdays every now and then just for the peace

As long as you don't drink while you contour like that other guy
 
Haha, no doubt. Usually about 3 hn, 2-3 stage 3 lung, 2-3 rectum, 1-2 gyn, 2 or 3 prostate, 3 to 6 breast, about half to 2/3 rds stage 1, but no brachy. Not Bragging at all, just saying. Keep my followup schedule very light, which saves time. My notes are way more concise than average, though I don't use macros. Not enough prostate, and about half is salvage or node+.
Fantastic interesting panel of patients. Generalists dream!
 
Haha, no doubt. Usually about 3 hn, 2-3 stage 3 lung, 2-3 rectum, 1-2 gyn, 2 or 3 prostate, 3 to 6 breast, about half to 2/3 rds stage 1, but no brachy. Not Bragging at all, just saying. Keep my followup schedule very light, which saves time. My notes are way more concise than average, though I don't use macros. Not enough prostate, and about half is salvage or node+.
have learned a lot recently about how to be efficient. some attendings have it, others don't. i imagine community docs as a whole are more efficient otherwise life would be untenable.
 


I actually think this Reddit post might be the best single thing to sum up the problem in the field.

It's longer than one sentence, but it gives a tidy description of the field as a medical student sees it.

Since it's unlikely for most chairs to interact directly with medical students, reading this Reddit post can be a surrogate.

Solution-wise, closing programs sounds good on paper but politically difficult. I agree with @Neuronix. His/hers is by far the most realistic proposal I've read. Every program cuts 25% of their spots. That would actually save the specialty.
 
I recently was part of a panel talk on prostate cancer at our medical school; the job market issues of radiation oncology, emergency medicine, pathology, nuclear medicine are no secret



Here's proof (skip to the 1:30 time mark)
 
@Dan Spratt
It would be very decent of you to share your conclusions/presentation publicly for the education of all, even if the official meeting is behind closed doors. Since you are including our thoughts in the discussion, I'd love to know what your take away is
 
I am speaking as a panel member at the upcoming SCAROP meeting in a few weeks on the issue of interest in our field/applicant numbers.

I am struggling to identify and appropriately characterize what the issue is exactly.

Programs want residents to fuel the clinical revenue machine of academic megacenters, but an oversupply of graduating residents limits job choice and professional satisfaction for community physicians.

- Social science papers in the Red Journal don't matter. I don't have a monthly Red Journal subscription. I read the papers that are relevant to my practice.
- Boards & board failures don't matter. I have full faith in the integrity and rigor of the board examination process.
- DEI doesn't matter. It's a manufactured problem, not specific to RO training programs.
- Quirky personalities amongst academic RO leaders don't matter. I don't know these folks personally, and the handful I've interacted with are pleasant & interesting.

It's the job market and labor supply/demand. Everything else is, at best, a sideshow.

Negativity on forums like SDN I believe contributes to the rapid decline in applicant numbers.

In an ideal world, programs would be reducing residency positions. We don't live in that world.

It's far from an ideal solution, but an alternative is to discourage students from pursuing radiation oncology. I don't post on Twitter and I post on SDN infrequently, but in real life, I will continue to tell premed and medical students that shadow me, or that I meet in a social setting, to avoid radiation oncology.

Again, it would be better if programs reduced residency positions, or maintained high standards for residency applicants, or at least abstained from SOAP participation.

By cutting programs in half you may make the already underserved rural communities have no access to radoncs. This is a bad thing.

This was untrue in the past and will be even more untrue in the future, with advancing technology and public embrace of remote connectivity, workplace productivity tools, and telemedicine.

In my experience, rural communities are neither underserved currently, nor are they at risk of losing access to radiotherapy.

You can provide radiotherapy in rural communities without having 1 rad onc with 3 consults/week live in a town of 30,000. Certificate of need, remote supervision, once-weekly presence, telemedicine, many creative possibilities can be explored without flooding the workforce with residency positions.

For rural towns, you often have more problems recruiting RTT's, nurses, LINAC engineers, medical oncologists than radiation oncologists. The limiting factor isn't radiation oncologists.

If anything, overtraining residents worsens care in rural communities, since the 1 rad onc with 3 consults/week is disincentivized to hypofractionate.

In Red Journal opinion pieces [1], other chairs love "protecting access to radiotherapy in rural communities", but how many have actually practiced in rural communities and are attuned to the needs of rural communities? It's like a rhetorical filler.

[1] Falit, Benjamin P., et al. "The radiation oncology job market: The economics and policy of workforce regulation." International Journal of Radiation Oncology* Biology* Physics96.3 (2016): 501-510.

By the way, I love Ann Arbor. But, Ann Arbor is not rural, Ann Arbor is one of the most cosmopolitan places in the Midwest.

It's also funny to me how in real life, some academic doctors are happy to see patients from 1000 miles away to give routine, widely available treatments. I had a breast surgeon at a top academic center's satellite ask me skeptically if I did "5 fraction breast" like it's something cutting edge. Yes, I appropriately use FAST, Fast-Forward, QOD 5fx apbi, QD 5 fx apbi, IMPORT-LOW apbi, and breast brachytherapy, and I use these regimens way more than I did at my residency program, but please, condescend to me and send the patient to your breast expert for radiotherapy 1000 miles from her home for routine DCIS.

However, the days of private groups owning their equipment and getting the tech revenue is uncommon now, so the >$1m salaries (more than even almost every single Chair makes in the country based on SCAROP data) are hard to come by.

Chairs are great, but there's no rule that Chairs (capital C) have to make the highest salaries. In most other specialties, Chairs do not make as much as the busiest community physicians, let alone busy community physicians that start their own practice or have ownership.

At my medical school, one of the surgery faculty collected at least $5-10 million annually from patent royalties. Some of the IM faculty went to industry in executive roles, and one is an actual billionaire. Academic faculty should be in the business of creating new knowledge and new treatments, and profiting handsomely from that, if they are so inclined. That's my opinion, I hope your Office of Technology Transfer and Commercialization agrees with me.

I am not an enemy. I am someone trying to do my part, imperfect, but trying.

100%. I hope I was direct without being abrasive or offensive. Good luck and best wishes.
 
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Every decision has an after effect (ie attract top researchers, MD/PhDs seemed like a great idea...promote discovery...however many simply went into private practice to make lots of $$$, many had no interest in seeing patients and there were too few jobs for them, and before you know it you have people that are approaching 40 yo when exiting residency with tons of research experience to find out there are not 50 physician scientist jobs available each year and some years closer to 5).

I've never mentioned how much as an MD/PhD, I hate being scapegoated for the lack of research in the specialty. I know we're an easy minority group to pick on, but please knock it off.

My research ideas were laughed at so many times by MDs when I interviewed for residency. When I finished my training with a whole bunch of papers and grants from both my PhD and residency, I couldn't find a research job or even a research fellowship. Even 50/50 with industry funding for that 50% was too much research for several academic institutions. I had to work a 100% clinical job for years before I could build up enough data to get a K and later R grant.

And now that MD/PhDs are mostly no longer applying to this specialty, that's being spun as somehow a good thing and not part of the death of the specialty. "We were just hiring the wrong residents all along..." As if chairs wouldn't still be picking physician scientists and other highly qualified applicants if they were applying into this specialty. As if MD/PhDs aren't talking about this stuff behind closed doors (no! it's SDN's fault! Shut up Neuronix!). My favorite tropes are that MD/PhDs are a bunch of clinical doofuses and yet they were just in it for the money all along and mostly go into highly successful private practices. Which is it exactly, are they bad clinicians or extremely capable?

Have we ever considered that maybe academic jobs are the worst ones out there? That between an academic satellite 100% clinical and a private 100% clinical job, most private jobs win hands down? Have we considered that maybe MD/PhDs won't stay in academics if they're not going to have a chance to make a real impact?

MD/PhDs didn't fail rad onc; rad onc failed MD/PhDs.
 
I've never mentioned how much as an MD/PhD, I hate being scapegoated for the lack of research in the specialty. I know we're an easy minority group to pick on, but please knock it off.

My research ideas were laughed at so many times by MDs when I interviewed for residency. When I finished my training with a whole bunch of papers and grants from both my PhD and residency, I couldn't find a research job or even a research fellowship. Even 50/50 with industry funding for that 50% was too much research for several academic institutions. I had to work a 100% clinical job for years before I could build up enough data to get a K and later R grant.

And now that MD/PhDs are mostly no longer applying to this specialty, that's being spun as somehow a good thing and not part of the death of the specialty. "We were just hiring the wrong residents all along..." As if chairs wouldn't still be picking physician scientists and other highly qualified applicants if they were applying into this specialty. As if MD/PhDs aren't talking about this stuff behind closed doors (no! it's SDN's fault! Shut up Neuronix!). My favorite tropes are that MD/PhDs are a bunch of clinical doofuses and yet they were just in it for the money all along and mostly go into highly successful private practices. Which is it exactly, are they bad clinicians or extremely capable?

Have we ever considered that maybe academic jobs are the worst ones out there? That between an academic satellite 100% clinical and a private 100% clinical job, most private jobs win hands down? Have we considered that maybe MD/PhDs won't stay in academics if they're not going to have a chance to make a real impact?

MD/PhDs didn't fail the field; the field failed us.
Interesting that a chair would make these comments. I am wondering how many startup packages actually exist today compared to number of MD/PhDs in the field. I bet for every $300K+ lab start up package/20-40% clinical job there are 10-20 MD/PhDs.
 
We have explained the very obvious problem and the very obvious solution in a way that a child of 5 could understand it.

I know Dan personally and he is brilliant - he gets it. The problem and the solution has not escaped him and I’m betting the other chairman understand it as well despite all the gaslighting they put out.

The question now becomes one of integrity. Will chairman continue to come up with excuse after excuse not to cut spots because it serves their own interests or will they make sacrifices to save the field?
 
I've never mentioned how much as an MD/PhD, I hate being scapegoated for the lack of research in the specialty. I know we're an easy minority group to pick on, but please knock it off.

My research ideas were laughed at so many times by MDs when I interviewed for residency. When I finished my training with a whole bunch of papers and grants from both my PhD and residency, I couldn't find a research job or even a research fellowship. Even 50/50 with industry funding for that 50% was too much research for several academic institutions. I had to work a 100% clinical job for years before I could build up enough data to get a K and later R grant.

And now that MD/PhDs are mostly no longer applying to this specialty, that's being spun as somehow a good thing and not part of the death of the specialty. "We were just hiring the wrong residents all along..." As if chairs wouldn't still be picking physician scientists and other highly qualified applicants if they were applying into this specialty. As if MD/PhDs aren't talking about this stuff behind closed doors (no! it's SDN's fault! Shut up Neuronix!). My favorite tropes are that MD/PhDs are a bunch of clinical doofuses and yet they were just in it for the money all along and mostly go into highly successful private practices. Which is it exactly, are they bad clinicians or extremely capable?

Have we ever considered that maybe academic jobs are the worst ones out there? That between an academic satellite 100% clinical and a private 100% clinical job, most private jobs win hands down? Have we considered that maybe MD/PhDs won't stay in academics if they're not going to have a chance to make a real impact?

MD/PhDs didn't fail the field; the field failed us.
I just don’t see why an md/phd would ever choose this field. Odds stacked against them and if they don’t get funding, they will be staffing a rural satellite (also, never met one with a stay at home wife). Medonc, on the other hand offers tons of industry funding and So much more geographic options if research gig does not work out.
 
We have explained the very obvious problem and the very obvious solution in a way that a child of 5 could understand it.

I know Dan personally and he is brilliant - he gets it. The problem and the solution has not escaped him and I’m betting the other chairman understand it as well despite all the gaslighting they put out.

The question now becomes one of integrity. Will chairman continue to come up with excuse after excuse not to cut spots because it serves their own interests or will they make sacrifices to save the field?cutting spots solve the problem.
Could cutting spots even solve the problem is a question we have to ask ourselves honestly. My answer is no.
 
Could cutting spots even solve the problem is a question we have to ask ourselves honestly. My answer is no.
Not right away, like global climate change and it may not help us but it will help the posterity which is always a hard argument to make to a cabal of mostly old white men who are gonna sneak out back door with millions to work for genesis or a florida pp. they did not care about you back then and they certainly dont give a F about you now.
 
Not right away, like global climate change and it may not help us but it will help the posterity which is always a hard argument to make to a cabal of mostly old white men who are gonna sneak out back door with millions to work for genesis or a florida pp. they did not care about you back then and they certainly dont give a F about you now.
Never miss a chance to bring race into it do you?
 
It is abundantly obvious that it would
Not to me. Cutting all spots and allowing present residents to graduate would still mean 7000+ radoncs in 2030s, when baby boomers are dying off, etc, bundled payment, lung cancer decreasing, etc would still be totally fd.
 
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Interesting that a chair would make these comments. I am wondering how many startup packages actually exist today compared to number of MD/PhDs in the field. I bet for every $300K+ lab start up package/20-40% clinical job there are 10-20 MD/PhDs.
Absolutely. I don't think we have hard, definitive numbers, but there was a recent Red Journal article (The Holman Research Pathway in Radiation Oncology: 2010 to 2019) looking at the outcomes of those who did Holman (although I am sure there are non-Holman people focused on research).

Nonetheless, in this select group of people from 2010 to 2019, this is what the abstract highlights: Of the 75 HRP graduates currently employed in an academic position, 39 (52.0%) have their own laboratories. Twenty-three of the 96 HRP residents (24.0%) who secured employment in full-time clinical positions after residency switched jobs over the study period.

Back of the envelope calculation, across 10 years, 39 have a laboratory, with nearly a quarter switching jobs during this time, leaving about 3 laboratory positions per year.

I am an MD/PhD, like many of us, who is now primarily clinical in an academic shop. The experience I saw on the job search, data like this, and decreased federal funding, I think I would be hard pressed to find a reason to persuade an MD/PhD student, who wants a physician-scientist career, to look at our field. There seems to me more opportunity elsewhere and ask them to look at those fields before coming back to rad onc.
 
Not to me. Cutting all spots and allowing present residents to graduate would still mean 7000+ radoncs in 2030s, when baby boomers are dying off, etc, bundled payment, lung cancer decreasing, etc would still be totally fd.

In other words: “Cutting spots is not enough to fix the entire problem in one single move so we shouldn’t do it.”

Do you realize how weird that sounds? It is like saying we shouldn’t treat cancer because we can’t cure everyone who has it.
 
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