What is the Rationale for Repeating Entire Year?

[doc toothache]

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Is there a logical reason for making students repeat the entire year curriculum rather than repeating the failed course(s)?

 

[Bereno]

More tuition money?

 

[dentalWorks]

Is there a logical reason for making students repeat the entire year curriculum rather than repeating the failed course(s)?

Pretty much all courses in DS are offered once year. Once you missed that course (ie failed it) you gotta take it again next year, but how? your next year's schedule (MOST LIKELY) will conflict with this course's timing... only solution: repeat the whole year.

Besides, some classes build on each other. The classes that don't build are less strict to pass with 60% being pass (biochem is an example). Others, especially those that are foundational for dentistry training, have that C- requirement (dental anatomy for example). Failing dental anatomy means you can't take occlusions course (the following term), so you repeat the whole year.

However, its a bit more fair than people think (at least it is in my school). When you repeat the year, you are allowed to opt out of classes you did well in. So you are repeating the whole year, but not the same classes. Their rational was:
a) you spend more time focusing on the class you failed and...
b) tuition is lower since your taking less credits.

It sounds silly to repeat the whole year, but I think there is good justification behind it. The system wasn't designed to remedy a lazy student, but rather for the special circumstances (accident, sickness, death in family, etc).

 

[jay47]

Is there a logical reason for making students repeat the entire year curriculum rather than repeating the failed course(s)?

Very interesting question. This year a record number of students got held back and placed in our class (4). The 4th year class is on record pace to be more behind than any class in the history of our school. Unfortunately they are taking chairs away from us, so we are being squeezed from both ends.

I don't really understand the reason except that perhaps they didn't think you were getting things done. A board review will determine if you are to be held back at our school, and in this case it appears that 4 students did not do enough to complete the year. I have no idea why they got held back specifically, but I hear it was mostly because they were too far behind in requirements. Our class is in psycho mode because they changed all the rules on us so that we have to get done or else we may get the same fate as the previous class, so we are working feverishly to complete as much as we can, however, it still seems unlikely that ALL of us will complete EVERY requirement by the end of the spring semester. I don't know exactly what is going to be done about the situation.

 

[peg lateral]

Good question-- I wish I knew the answer. I know of several people that graduated before me, with me, and who will graduate after me who have had to repeat a year at the school I went to. Rumor has it that 8 students are repeating third year this year. I can understand failing courses first and second year and having to repeat the year, but majority of the students who repeat at the school I went to, repeat third year. And a lot of it has to do with the fact they aren't meeting "requirements." But a lot of people struggle with meeting requirements because the school isn't providing the patients, or at least evenly distributing them. There should be no reason that one student can cut 20 crowns third year, and someone else barely gets by with the minimum 6 crowns. I have never understood the concept behind separate third and fourth year requirements. I know of a few schools who have the requirements over the two years, and if you don't finish "third year requirements" you aren't held back, but you just have more to complete senior year. That is how it should be. You cannot control the patient cases that are distributed. You cannot control whether a patient has finances. You cannot control a patient having a death in the family or heaven forbid the death of your patient-- It has happened. There was a student in my class who's RPD patient died and the student was supposed to deliver the RPD at the next appointment. The student had to find another case or they were not going to graduate. Oh and this happened in March/April right before clinic was over. There was another student in my class who barely met the minimum requirements for crowns third year because the perio department crown lengthened the wrong tooth-- yet the student is held accountable for that, and could have failed and had to repeat the entire year. There are classmates of mine who "cherry-picked" screening forms from the screening clinic that are assigned to clinic groups. They did this before faculty ever had a chance to review them and distribute them appropriately based on student needs. So I think to fail a student on account of not meeting requirements because they didn't have the patient cases to fulfill the requirements is ridiculous. Not having the hand skills is a different story-- but then again that should be determined before moving on to clinic and holding the student back second year. There are also students who fail or receive lower grades on account of a quantitative component. The way clinic courses were graded at my school was by a quantitative and qualitative component. Quantitative is # of procedures, # crowns, # fillings, etc. Qualitative is the graded clinic exams-- what is the quality of your work like? There are students who do excellent quality work, but because they aren't necessarily fast and can complete multiple procedures every appointment they struggle on the quantitative aspect. When final grades are assigned, you get the lower of the two components. So, you could make A's on all your graded clinical exams-- crown, FPD, RPD, complete denture, Class II, Class III, etc. but if you only have enough points to get a C, then you get a C. Anyways, I have never really understood the reason behind holding people back based on the things I mentioned above, but it happens. Every school has their good and bad aspects, and you just have to deal with them. I don't know if it would help or not, but changing clinic to pass/fail might help. I think so many students get so caught up in the number of crowns they cut, or the number of restorations they do, and all they care about is getting the A and more. Even after they get the A, they keep cutting crowns, rather than helping out their own classmates (future colleagues) who are struggling to pass because they don't have the patients. I know we all want to take advantage of every opportunity to do as much as we can while we are in school, but the truth is, once you have cut a handful of crowns, you pretty much have the concepts down. And besides, nothing is quite as cut and dry in private practice as it is in dental school, and I would much rather have good relationships with my colleagues by sharing patients, than to be so cut-throat. Trust me, there are a handful of students in my class who were so selfish and thought they were God's gift to dentistry (as evidenced by some of the comments they made throughout the two years in clinic) that there is no way I would ever refer anything to them or recommend them to anyone. Anyways, sorry for my rant, but the truth is people at my school are held back a lot of times on account of not having the patients, which is often due to a lack of patient cases to fulfill requirements, and both faculty and students are at fault.

 

[bing12]

It was mentioned at Temple that if you fail biochem, you would have to repeat it during the summer with the Professor. That is a specific class though , and it doesnt seem like we would have to repeat the year for that specific class ( to my understanding atleast).

 

[watson138]

It was mentioned at Temple that if you fail biochem, you would have to repeat it during the summer with the Professor. That is a specific class though , and it doesnt seem like we would have to repeat the year for that specific class ( to my understanding atleast).

You get one chance to remediate in the summer, and if you fail that test then you get to repeat the year.

 

[jay47]

Good question-- I wish I knew the answer. I know of several people that graduated before me, with me, and who will graduate after me who have had to repeat a year at the school I went to. Rumor has it that 8 students are repeating third year this year. I can understand failing courses first and second year and having to repeat the year, but majority of the students who repeat at the school I went to, repeat third year. And a lot of it has to do with the fact they aren't meeting "requirements." But a lot of people struggle with meeting requirements because the school isn't providing the patients, or at least evenly distributing them. There should be no reason that one student can cut 20 crowns third year, and someone else barely gets by with the minimum 6 crowns. I have never understood the concept behind separate third and fourth year requirements. I know of a few schools who have the requirements over the two years, and if you don't finish "third year requirements" you aren't held back, but you just have more to complete senior year. That is how it should be. You cannot control the patient cases that are distributed. You cannot control whether a patient has finances. You cannot control a patient having a death in the family or heaven forbid the death of your patient-- It has happened. There was a student in my class who's RPD patient died and the student was supposed to deliver the RPD at the next appointment. The student had to find another case or they were not going to graduate. Oh and this happened in March/April right before clinic was over. There was another student in my class who barely met the minimum requirements for crowns third year because the perio department crown lengthened the wrong tooth-- yet the student is held accountable for that, and could have failed and had to repeat the entire year. There are classmates of mine who "cherry-picked" screening forms from the screening clinic that are assigned to clinic groups. They did this before faculty ever had a chance to review them and distribute them appropriately based on student needs. So I think to fail a student on account of not meeting requirements because they didn't have the patient cases to fulfill the requirements is ridiculous. Not having the hand skills is a different story-- but then again that should be determined before moving on to clinic and holding the student back second year. There are also students who fail or receive lower grades on account of a quantitative component. The way clinic courses were graded at my school was by a quantitative and qualitative component. Quantitative is # of procedures, # crowns, # fillings, etc. Qualitative is the graded clinic exams-- what is the quality of your work like? There are students who do excellent quality work, but because they aren't necessarily fast and can complete multiple procedures every appointment they struggle on the quantitative aspect. When final grades are assigned, you get the lower of the two components. So, you could make A's on all your graded clinical exams-- crown, FPD, RPD, complete denture, Class II, Class III, etc. but if you only have enough points to get a C, then you get a C. Anyways, I have never really understood the reason behind holding people back based on the things I mentioned above, but it happens. Every school has their good and bad aspects, and you just have to deal with them. I don't know if it would help or not, but changing clinic to pass/fail might help. I think so many students get so caught up in the number of crowns they cut, or the number of restorations they do, and all they care about is getting the A and more. Even after they get the A, they keep cutting crowns, rather than helping out their own classmates (future colleagues) who are struggling to pass because they don't have the patients. I know we all want to take advantage of every opportunity to do as much as we can while we are in school, but the truth is, once you have cut a handful of crowns, you pretty much have the concepts down. And besides, nothing is quite as cut and dry in private practice as it is in dental school, and I would much rather have good relationships with my colleagues by sharing patients, than to be so cut-throat. Trust me, there are a handful of students in my class who were so selfish and thought they were God's gift to dentistry (as evidenced by some of the comments they made throughout the two years in clinic) that there is no way I would ever refer anything to them or recommend them to anyone. Anyways, sorry for my rant, but the truth is people at my school are held back a lot of times on account of not having the patients, which is often due to a lack of patient cases to fulfill requirements, and both faculty and students are at fault.

Sounds very similar to our school in fact. This last years class and our class seems to have been hit especially hard by the downturn in the economy. I know that most of the time the problem is not the students- we aren't getting patient's from the school to get requirements done. It's almost a vicious cycle- the fourth years are SO far behind that the patient assigners are having to give them lots of the stuff that we need to get our requirements done. The problem is, that puts us further behind and perpetuates the cycle. It's not that I can't schedule and am wasting my time. I am actively pursuing patients, actively working away in clinic treatment planning everything that I think I need. Then it comes down to it and the patient can't pay, they have a death in the family, their wife gets ill (and yes, these have all happened to me).

I can say for sure that the type of people we get in our dental school mostly includes lower income individuals, who rightly deserve and need care the most. The problem is, prices at the school keep going up to meet tightened state funding budgets, and the income and job stability of patients keeps going down. It's a "lose lose situation" so to speak. I actually have no idea how some dental schools can afford to keep their procedure requirements as close to private office prices as they do. If our prices rose to even close to private offices, no one would put up with the 2-3 appts it takes to even get started on treatment.
Sure stuff takes a long time, but jeezus, I could get 10 times as much done if I didn't have to jump through 10 hoops just to get started on a treatment. I know that lots of these hoops are essential, but they truly have started making us jump through even more hoops recently.

 

[Bereno]

Good question-- I wish I knew the answer. I know of several people that graduated before me, with me, and who will graduate after me who have had to repeat a year at the school I went to. Rumor has it that 8 students are repeating third year this year. I can understand failing courses first and second year and having to repeat the year, but majority of the students who repeat at the school I went to, repeat third year. And a lot of it has to do with the fact they aren't meeting "requirements." But a lot of people struggle with meeting requirements because the school isn't providing the patients, or at least evenly distributing them. There should be no reason that one student can cut 20 crowns third year, and someone else barely gets by with the minimum 6 crowns. I have never understood the concept behind separate third and fourth year requirements. I know of a few schools who have the requirements over the two years, and if you don't finish "third year requirements" you aren't held back, but you just have more to complete senior year. That is how it should be. You cannot control the patient cases that are distributed. You cannot control whether a patient has finances. You cannot control a patient having a death in the family or heaven forbid the death of your patient-- It has happened. There was a student in my class who's RPD patient died and the student was supposed to deliver the RPD at the next appointment. The student had to find another case or they were not going to graduate. Oh and this happened in March/April right before clinic was over. There was another student in my class who barely met the minimum requirements for crowns third year because the perio department crown lengthened the wrong tooth-- yet the student is held accountable for that, and could have failed and had to repeat the entire year. There are classmates of mine who "cherry-picked" screening forms from the screening clinic that are assigned to clinic groups. They did this before faculty ever had a chance to review them and distribute them appropriately based on student needs. So I think to fail a student on account of not meeting requirements because they didn't have the patient cases to fulfill the requirements is ridiculous. Not having the hand skills is a different story-- but then again that should be determined before moving on to clinic and holding the student back second year. There are also students who fail or receive lower grades on account of a quantitative component. The way clinic courses were graded at my school was by a quantitative and qualitative component. Quantitative is # of procedures, # crowns, # fillings, etc. Qualitative is the graded clinic exams-- what is the quality of your work like? There are students who do excellent quality work, but because they aren't necessarily fast and can complete multiple procedures every appointment they struggle on the quantitative aspect. When final grades are assigned, you get the lower of the two components. So, you could make A's on all your graded clinical exams-- crown, FPD, RPD, complete denture, Class II, Class III, etc. but if you only have enough points to get a C, then you get a C. Anyways, I have never really understood the reason behind holding people back based on the things I mentioned above, but it happens. Every school has their good and bad aspects, and you just have to deal with them. I don't know if it would help or not, but changing clinic to pass/fail might help. I think so many students get so caught up in the number of crowns they cut, or the number of restorations they do, and all they care about is getting the A and more. Even after they get the A, they keep cutting crowns, rather than helping out their own classmates (future colleagues) who are struggling to pass because they don't have the patients. I know we all want to take advantage of every opportunity to do as much as we can while we are in school, but the truth is, once you have cut a handful of crowns, you pretty much have the concepts down. And besides, nothing is quite as cut and dry in private practice as it is in dental school, and I would much rather have good relationships with my colleagues by sharing patients, than to be so cut-throat. Trust me, there are a handful of students in my class who were so selfish and thought they were God's gift to dentistry (as evidenced by some of the comments they made throughout the two years in clinic) that there is no way I would ever refer anything to them or recommend them to anyone. Anyways, sorry for my rant, but the truth is people at my school are held back a lot of times on account of not having the patients, which is often due to a lack of patient cases to fulfill requirements, and both faculty and students are at fault.

Paragraphs are your friend 😀

On topic though, I'm definitely going to be asking about the patient pool during my interviews for this very reason... (Asking students that is, not the faculty)

 

[peg lateral]

You get one chance to remediate in the summer, and if you fail that test then you get to repeat the year.

If you failed remediation at my school you were dismissed.

 

[Dent001]

at my school if you fail 1st year operative or patho you repeat the whole year