What is the value in attending a top 20 med school?

[thestrokes14]

A lot of people have been telling me that it's basically as easy to be successful from a lower end medical school as it would be to attend a top medical school. Now sure, getting a residency is easier from the top medical schools, but in the end, what is the benefit for working your end off to get into that good med school?

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[Omni]

well, as you said, residency.

 

[mfrizzo3]

Nice T-Shirt

 

[apumic]

A lot of people have been telling me that it's basically as easy to be successful from a lower end medical school as it would be to attend a top medical school. Now sure, getting a residency is easier from the top medical schools, but in the end, what is the benefit for working your end off to get into that good med school?

Well, in theory, residency, but because there are so many residency spots in most specialties, because other factors play into residency choice so more strongly than does your med school, and because top schools' advantages come largely from connections between the faculty and residency directors which are often built by randomly meeting at a conference or sending a good student to a certain program and your lack of knowledge of which schools have formed relationships with which residency programs, there really isn't much of an advantage. You will, however, get a nice piece of paper saying "Harvard" or "Yale" on it along with your super-sized tuition check!

 

[ziggydoc]

Connections, especially to future leaders in the field.

That being said, I despise the fact connections plays such a HUGE part in everything, merit alone is almost never good enough. Sigh🙁

 

[plaz]

A lot of people have been telling me that it's basically as easy to be successful from a lower end medical school as it would be to attend a top medical school. Now sure, getting a residency is easier from the top medical schools, but in the end, what is the benefit for working your end off to get into that good med school?

One usually has to "work their end off" to get into medical school in the first place. I shoot for the stars so I'll at least hit the moon.

 

[ksmi117]

Moving to the main Pre-Allo forum. This doesn't belong in What Are My Chances?

 

[DrYoda]

Connections, especially to future leaders in the field.

That being said, I despise the fact connections plays such a HUGE part in everything, merit alone is almost never good enough. Sigh🙁

Merit alone is absolutely good enough. Connections do help in life, and the great thing about them is you can build them from scratch.

OP, residency programs tend to have a preference for their med school's applicants (they do know them better after-all). So if you want to do your residency at Penn it helps to go to Penn med.

Further down the road:

Residency at big research places can help if you're going into academics. Since you are more likely to get a big time researcher as a reference and hospitals often offer attending postions to their residents (similar to the Med school-->residency thing).

It seems the conventional knowledge I've seen on SDN and heard from doctors IRL is that for private practice a residency in the area you want to practice is best.

SDN loves to overestimate the value of school name. Big name schools turn out more impressive alumni because they on average accept more impressive students. If you're a hot-shot it will be apparent that you are no matter if you went to PodunkU or Harvard. If you're a lazy deadbeat it will be equally apparent, again regardless of where you went. People hiring all go after the hot shots. And before someone tries it: the average person does not get boosted to hot shot status by having Harvard on their diploma.


Short version: The person is vastly more imporatant than their school.

 

[Web MD]

The value is easily >80k/yr

 

[45408]

You get to brag, a ton, on SDN.

No really, it may have a small impact on your residency applications, but it's pretty unlikely that you would or wouldn't get into your desired specialty based on your med school. I think the most important things in picking a school are "Would you be happy there?" and "How much does it cost?"

 

[mmmcdowe]

You get to brag, a ton, on SDN.

No really, it may have a small impact on your residency applications, but it's pretty unlikely that you would or wouldn't get into your desired specialty based on your med school. I think the most important things in picking a school are "Would you be happy there?" and "How much does it cost?"

Thus, if bragging or subtle manipulation of conversation so that it steers towards you getting asked where you go/went to medical school makes you happy, shoot for a top 20.

In all seriousness though, everyone is proud of getting into medical school, and most won't ward off the occasional praise for that. So why would the same not stand for getting into and going to a prestigious medical school?
In that sense, this IS a benefit for going to a top 20, but I think the other one's that have been mentioned should be more of a factor in choosing your school. Are you happy there? Are the students ones that you like and will be able to network with? Does it fit your desire for location in terms of residency?

 

[Van Chowder]

MOney on my mind!!

I honestly don't think the medical school you go to matters much at all.. I think what matters essentially is how well you do on your boards. Most of the rankings for medical schools are based on research anyways. Call me dumb, but I do not understand how the implications of research effect my learning. But I guess they have to rate them on something.
If you find more people are getting into competitive residencies from top 20 schools, it may not be so much because of the school per se, but because the schools attracts more academically inclined individuals, than its less competitive counter part. These individuals in GENERAL did better on the MCAT, which may have some indication as to how well they will do on the step 1. I might be wrong though because I am not much aware about the format of the step one beyond that fact that it is a two part test.

 

[schrizto]

Prestige! Prestige is power!

And you get to put it in your SDN sig in big bold letters.

 

[Dissected]

Bragging rights

 

[djommy2005]

Mommy and Daddy would be sooo proud ... 😍





(btw, I'm telling them as of now that it will not happen)

 

[longhorn09]

Prestige! Prestige is power!

And you get to put it in your SDN sig in big bold letters.

that's so true!

 

[snwbrdr18]

Nice T-Shirt

lol

 

[SnarkyMD]

In short a top 20 med school school will get you a top 20 residency. It's mostly due to all of the inbreeding that occurs in a majority of programs. It's certainly not everything (my current chief resident who is going into vascular surgery is a DO), but it's certainly something.

As for being more expensive, the irony is that top schools have more money and often better scholarships, so that claim isn't exactly true.

And as others have said, having access to working in labs with some folks at the forefront of their fields helps with one's own research career. Or at least it makes a dandy rec letter.

 

[BerlinDude]

A lot of students at top schools want to do other things with their life besides treat patients, and in that case there are more opportunities at top schools. For example, if you want a career in academic medicine, you can benefit from all the research opportunities at the big-name schools.

If you want to spend all your time as a primary care physician, I would guess which med school you go to matters a lot less.

 

[halekulani]

A lot of people have been telling me that it's basically as easy to be successful from a lower end medical school as it would be to attend a top medical school. Now sure, getting a residency is easier from the top medical schools, but in the end, what is the benefit for working your end off to get into that good med school?

why would you ever not want to be the best you can be?

 

[45408]

So why would the same not stand for getting into and going to a prestigious medical school?
In that sense, this IS a benefit for going to a top 20, but I think the other one's that have been mentioned should be more of a factor in choosing your school.

1) only if you care about prestige (I did a bit, for med school - I could hardly care less for residency)

2) only if that perk outweighs any other negatives that may exist. Yay, you get to go to Harvard. Boo, your girlfriend lives in Hawaii.

 

[45408]

why would you ever not want to be the best you can be?

The best that you can be = attending a school that gets a lot of research dollars?


Being the best that you can be hinges much more on learning as much as you possibly can during the first two years (reflected on your Step 1 score) and shining on the wards (M3 honors). Yes, there are definitely some opportunities and connections that are available at a well-heeled research institution, but that's only a small part of the picture.

 

[Gogogirl]

Well..personally..braggin about it and using it to pick up guys...LOL..JK

 

[halekulani]

The best that you can be = attending a school that gets a lot of research dollars?

no
the OPs question was, what is the benefit of working your tail off for getting into a good med school?

my counter to that is, why would you not give your best to begin with?

do your best first
discuss/decide about what schools to attend after you've gotten in.

chances are you won't sit around thinking to yourself, well i did my best and all i got was a top 50 school instead of a top 20, maybe i shouldn't have tried so hard.

 

[LAman10]

hopkins has a little explanation on their admissions website

 

[45408]

no
the OPs question was, what is the benefit of working your tail off for getting into a good med school?

my counter to that is, why would you not give your best to begin with?

do your best first
discuss/decide about what schools to attend after you've gotten in.

chances are you won't sit around thinking to yourself, well i did my best and all i got was a top 50 school instead of a top 20, maybe i shouldn't have tried so hard.

Ah, well, I agree that you should try your best anyways, but the person you responded to was saying "working hard blah blah blah...to get into that specific school."

 

[airplanes]

the OP is new so I'll cut him some slack.


...but do these threads ever end?

 

[Narmerguy]

hopkins has a little explanation on their admissions website

Of what?

 

[dru2002]

no
the OPs question was, what is the benefit of working your tail off for getting into a good med school?

my counter to that is, why would you not give your best to begin with?

do your best first
discuss/decide about what schools to attend after you've gotten in.

chances are you won't sit around thinking to yourself, well i did my best and all i got was a top 50 school instead of a top 20, maybe i shouldn't have tried so hard.

If I have the option of studying for 4 hours and getting an A- on exam v. studying 12 hours to get an A, I'll take the A- every time. There is more to life then grades. I personally love spending time with my gf adn shooting some hoops. If that means I get into a lesser school than I am cool with that. So that's why I am not always the best I can be.

 

[Slowpoke]

the OP is new so I'll cut him some slack.


...but do these threads ever end?

as long as there are pre-meds, there will be questions like this.

its a fact of life.

 

[mmmcdowe]

OP, read this thread for more information on the effect of prestige on residency choices.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=655812

 

[searun]

With the exception of Washington University and Hopkins, the students who attend a top 20 med school tend to be taller, more athletic, and significantly more physically attractive. So if you enjoy hanging out with tall, athletic, good looking people, attending a top 20 makes sense.

 

[Jolie South]

With the exception of Washington University and Hopkins, the students who attend a top 20 med school tend to be taller, more athletic, and significantly more physically attractive. So if you enjoy hanging out with tall, athletic, good looking people, attending a top 20 makes sense.

Really? I've noticed quite the opposite trend. Students look more "trollish" meaning more pasty white skin and hunched posture from the lifetime of library dwelling.

 

[searun]

Really? I've noticed quite the opposite trend. Students look more "trollish" meaning more pasty white skin and hunched posture from the lifetime of library dwelling.

Really, pasty white skin in sun drenched Texas. That is not good. Your class mates need to learn how to have some fun, get outside, enjoy life, wine, women, song, all the good stuff.

So, ok, I will add Baylor to the list of my exceptions.....So with the exceptions of Baylor, Wash U, and Hopkins, top 20 students tend to be taller, more athletic, and more attractive.

 

[Compass]

$200,000 in debt.




What? Too soon?

 

[Jolie South]

Really, pasty white skin in sun drenched Texas. That is not good. Your class mates need to learn how to have some fun, get outside, enjoy life, wine, women, song, all the good stuff.

So, ok, I will add Baylor to the list of my exceptions.....So with the exceptions of Baylor, Wash U, and Hopkins, top 20 students tend to be taller, more athletic, and more attractive.

I was kidding, but the students at the lower ranked school across the street are much better looking. They apparently beat our school's intramural soccer team every year as well.

 

[whoisthedrizzle]

check out the "lower ranked = easier" thread

the guy with the jesus avatar paints a pretty good picture of the value of top tier school

 

[45408]

Really, pasty white skin in sun drenched Texas. That is not good. Your class mates need to learn how to have some fun, get outside, enjoy life, wine, women, song, all the good stuff.

So, ok, I will add Baylor to the list of my exceptions.....So with the exceptions of Baylor, Wash U, and Hopkins, top 20 students tend to be taller, more athletic, and more attractive.

Since half of them probably post here, I won't post specific pictures, but after browsing one particularly elite school's white coat ceremony pictures, I can't say I concur with any of your conclusions.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Since half of them probably post here, I won't post specific pictures, but after browsing one particularly elite school's white coat ceremony pictures, I can't say I concur with any of your conclusions.

I'd love to see if you have the link lieing around (I can PM you for it if you like).

On a slightly different topic, what should parents wear to the white coat ceremony?

 

[littlealex]

Look at Harvard Med's match list and compare that to other unranked programs.

1) You meet the residency directors of the local hospitals and do research with their friends. It's much easier to match locally.
2) Reputation can open doors. I hate to say it especially since I don't go to a top program, but it's true.
3) Higher caliber students tend to set the bar higher. Helps motivate you.

With the exception of Washington University and Hopkins, the students who attend a top 20 med school tend to be taller, more athletic, and significantly more physically attractive. So if you enjoy hanging out with tall, athletic, good looking people, attending a top 20 makes sense.

In my experience this is very true. I went to a top premed college and felt my fellow premeds were often not in the best physical shapes. I was shocked by how good looking my fellow classmates are. Sometimes not so much the women, but the men in medicine appears to look more attractive than the average college men.

 

[halekulani]

If I have the option of studying for 4 hours and getting an A- on exam v. studying 12 hours to get an A, I'll take the A- every time. There is more to life then grades. I personally love spending time with my gf adn shooting some hoops. If that means I get into a lesser school than I am cool with that. So that's why I am not always the best I can be.

except life doesn't work that way
you can't study just enough for an A- vs. an A. your example doesn't apply (or at least to most schools). you only can study and aim for an A or just slack and pray you get a B instead of a C. whatever grade you receive is what you deserve. it is not guaranteed, just like admission to a lower tier school is not guaranteed.

it's not about grades; it's about putting in your best effort, even if it only nets you a B.

like i said
if you put in your best effort, and only got into a top 50, you won't be telling yourself, oh maybe i shouldn't have studied so hard. if you didn't study that hard, you probably won't be accepted to any school at all.

 

[halekulani]

Ah, well, I agree that you should try your best anyways, but the person you responded to was saying "working hard blah blah blah...to get into that specific school."

....
and?
he still needs to work hard whether he wants to get into a top50 or top20. he has no guarantee that he can even make the top50 to begin with.

 

[veaselhaufen]

Really, pasty white skin in sun drenched Texas. That is not good. Your class mates need to learn how to have some fun, get outside, enjoy life, wine, women, song, all the good stuff.

So, ok, I will add Baylor to the list of my exceptions.....So with the exceptions of Baylor, Wash U, and Hopkins, top 20 students tend to be taller, more athletic, and more attractive.[/QUOTE

This seems paradoxically true. There are GOBS of hot girls at the school I attend. And as far as athleticism, we have a MS1/MS2 football game AND a MS1/MS2 soccer game just today. Med school students are superhuman

 

[riceman04]

Well, in theory, residency, but because there are so many residency spots in most specialties, because other factors play into residency choice so more strongly than does your med school, and because top schools' advantages come largely from connections between the faculty and residency directors which are often built by randomly meeting at a conference or sending a good student to a certain program and your lack of knowledge of which schools have formed relationships with which residency programs, there really isn't much of an advantage. You will, however, get a nice piece of paper saying "Harvard" or "Yale" on it along with your super-sized tuition check!

not to be rude or anything, but you convey an opinion as if you are explaining from experience. Is there something you are not revealing to us through your potenially misleading "pre-medical" status or are you practicing what it seems so many pre-meds are good at - cough cough...BS-ing...cough cough?

just curious

 

[riceman04]

Since half of them probably post here, I won't post specific pictures, but after browsing one particularly elite school's white coat ceremony pictures, I can't say I concur with any of your conclusions.

 

[dru2002]

except life doesn't work that way
you can't study just enough for an A- vs. an A. your example doesn't apply (or at least to most schools). you only can study and aim for an A or just slack and pray you get a B instead of a C. whatever grade you receive is what you deserve. it is not guaranteed, just like admission to a lower tier school is not guaranteed.

it's not about grades; it's about putting in your best effort, even if it only nets you a B.

like i said
if you put in your best effort, and only got into a top 50, you won't be telling yourself, oh maybe i shouldn't have studied so hard. if you didn't study that hard, you probably won't be accepted to any school at all.

Life sure does work that way for me. I know the point of diminishing returns. If you made it through high school and college you should as well. Nothing is guaranteed, even if you have great stats. But if it doesn't work out at least I'll have enjoyed my college years.

I have two friends (now post-residency) who went to top 20 medical schools and the only advice they continually repeat is enjoy college because for the next 10 or so years you will have no life. I know this isn't the SDN sentiment or probably a correct formula for making into medical school, but I sure am happy.

 

[halekulani]

why is it when i say, "give it your best" people assume you have to have no life or fun at all?

you can work your butt off and have fun too. gee, what a concept.

btw, i call bs on studying for an A vs. A- vs. B+, etc. no way you can do that without actually knowing exactly what is on the exam before hand.

 

[45408]

I'd love to see if you have the link lieing around (I can PM you for it if you like).

On a slightly different topic, what should parents wear to the white coat ceremony?

Couldn't find the ones I saw before. Just google any particular school and "White Coat Ceremony" and decide for yourself. I just remember someone saying "Oh, they're all normal people at such-n-such school, even though they're super duper smart and well-rounded!" So I went and looked at that year's pictures.

 

[sike08]

[/QUOTE

This seems paradoxically true. There are GOBS of hot girls at the school I attend. And as far as athleticism, we have a MS1/MS2 football game AND a MS1/MS2 soccer game just today. Med school students are superhuman[/QUOTE]


this is true. AND their "kryptonite" is actually kryptonite. and a bald kevin spacey...

 

[Schemp]

I'm not sure I buy into the "top schools are more expensive" claim. It seems like if you're out of state you're almost definitely paying at least 35k a year, probably closer to 40-44k, and then cost of living for different areas will add a varying amount of cost to that. Now if you're basically comparing private schools to public, where even if you're out of state you can get residency in a year, I understand the argument. It seems like most, or at least around half of med schools are private, and they basically all fall within that cost range noted above, the best and the worst of them. Then the really good ones are more likely to have a large endowment for financial aid and stuff, so what is this argument really based on?