What keeps you from cheating?

[Planes2Doc]

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Recently there was a thread in the Allopathic forum regarding medical students and cheating. It was very interesting to hear the different responses. I can sense that there is a divide between "non-cheaters," where some won't cheat because of moral principle, and some won't because they fear the consequences of getting caught.

Before anyone says the poll is flawed, I don't think that someone can be kept from cheating due to both morals and the fear of getting caught. This is like saying that I am scared of visiting states that have the death penalty for murder. If you wouldn't ever commit murder in the first place, then why would a consequence scare you?

So what keeps you from cheating in school? Try to be truthful, I think I already know that the "SDN consensus" will be...

And on a side-note, has anyone currently interviewing been asked if they cheated before? And if yes, what did you say?

 

[Freesia88]

Exams for me are a chance to assess how much I have actually learned/retained from my studies so far...so cheating would defeat that whole purpose.

 

[Josh7]

I know other pre-meds who cheat in classes like Orgo I and I just wonder why they're shooting themselves in the foot for the MCAT.

Anyways, I don't cheat because I'm in college to learn something and I want to apply what I'm learning someday to a job. I've really never felt the need to cheat since I put in the effort. I think it's probably morals since I've never even felt compelled to cheat.

 

[Ruhroh]

Long story short, it's never worth it

 

[Josh7]

I cheated once in high school for an exam in a class I absolutely hated, and got caught. Basically destroyed my entire college application since my principal made sure I had a scarlet letter from that incident. I don't know if it was his intention to teach me a lesson, but it sure as hell made me scared to cheat ever again.

Just a warning, 99% of the replies in this thread will be from perfect pre-allo angels saying they would never cheat because the point of school is to learn and blah blah.

So what is the point of school for you then?

 

[Charles Darwin]

If ya ain't cheatin', ya ain't trying.

 

[sinombre]

There are always exceptions, but I'm against cheating in principle.

 

[Sesom]

What if the reward for cheating far outweighs the consequence?

 

[tn4596]

So what is the point of school for you then?

Obtain degree, advance career.
You forget most of the stuff you "learn" in college anyway.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

So what is the point of school for you then?

Getting a degree, either way. I personally don't cheat, but most people cheating are not cheating to get a passing grade ie a C, but rather to get an A. I.e cheating has nothing to do with learning, all about getting the holy A for their application. Thus killing that argument that cheaters never win because they don't learn.
Either way, it's a bit moralistic, and cheating is if done successfully probably a relevant skill to life. It's all about not getting caught.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Obtain degree, advance career.
You forget most of the stuff you "learn" in college anyway.

Or learn that the way they do it in school is wrong and they teach you something completely different on the job.

 

[punkedoutriffs]

I'm too egotistical to cheat.

 

[Freesia88]

I'm too egotistical to cheat.

👍


Yup... We build these bitches...

 

[typicalindian]

I don't cheat off of other people because I'd get lower scores.

I don't try to cheat because it's never even crossed my mind. Something about cheating just seems so inherently wrong I couldn't bring my self to do it.

 

[DAPI]

I don't cheat off of other people because I'd get lower scores.

I don't try to cheat because it's never even crossed my mind. Something about cheating just seems so inherently wrong I couldn't bring my self to do it.

This is so true

But yeah, cheating doesn't even cross my mind when I'm taking a test.

 

[slothster]

What if the reward for cheating far outweighs the consequence?

There is absolutely no reward that justifies cheating.

A rewarding career, a high salary, prestige... it's all meaningless if you're not living a life that you're proud of. And I don't know how one could be proud of their life if the rewards they received were not earned. Moreover, life is not about getting A's on exams--literally and figuratively. It's about having a purpose, learning, and staying fully engaged with people.

 

[dsoz]

And on a side-note, has anyone currently interviewing been asked if they cheated before? And if yes, what did you say?

At LECOM-B, the group I was in for interview (group interviews SUCK!) was asked several different ways by one of the interviewers about cheating. Whether we thought that it was possible for a person to take an on-line exam that is not proctored and be honest, no looking up material and not cheating. I think that it is possible for some people to do, but not for everyone. I have been in the business of education too long to even think that most people are honest and responsible. I really do think that most people are lazy, and will do the least work possible for the greatest gain. For some that means that cheating is a way to the end. For those people, even an "honor code" would not keep them from cheating.

The interviewer that I had cited several examples of exams that had some students that were proctored, and some were "honor code" allowed to take the exam un-proctored. Those that were not proctored scored with a higher average. That gave the instructor the "evidence" that they were cheating.

I don't say that I agree with the conclusion of the professor, but it does raise questions about whether integrity is still a value that college students hold.

dsoz

 

[lobo.solo]

I don't cheat off of other people because I'd get lower scores.

I don't try to cheat because it's never even crossed my mind. Something about cheating just seems so inherently wrong I couldn't bring my self to do it.

This^. Besides I enjoy learning and the challenge of testing that knowledge I just learned. Cheating = boring, there is no challenge there.

 

[Narmerguy]

I'm not going to pretend I've never thought about cheating. That time when you look at the test, realize "wtf, I don't know any of this", and want to see what someone else wrote or perhaps go outside and google a term on your phone real quick so you'll actually have a fighting chance.

This has happened to me probably 2 or 3 times in college, and what has kept me from cheating is the belief that we should be responsible for our actions and accept the consequences of our actions. If I wanted better grades I should have studied more--I have no one to blame but myself.

I think a lot of people should learn to embrace their failures. When you do something wrong, don't try to rationalize it (or cheat) to make yourself feel better. Just go ahead and let yourself feel like crap, accept that you are solely (or at least primarily) responsible for your shortcomings, and that better behaviors/decisions would have mitigated your current struggles. Make these adjustments and stuff just falls into place easier in the future, and you will have the added bonus of always knowing that you earned it all, the failures and the successes.

 

[Geebeejay]

I'll remark on my philosophy for lifting which also applies to learning....cheating only hurts yourself, and undermines your capacity to grow. You see those idiots at the gym that do <half-rep knee flaring squats...they will never be as strong as someone who does full squats with excellent form, no matter how much weight either of them has on the bar.

 

[Freesia88]

I'm not going to pretend I've never thought about cheating. That time when you look at the test, realize "wtf, I don't know any of this", and want to see what someone else wrote or perhaps go outside and google a term on your phone real quick so you'll actually have a fighting chance.

This has happened to me probably 2 or 3 times in college, and what has kept me from cheating is the belief that we should be responsible for our actions and accept the consequences of our actions. If I wanted better grades I should have studied more--I have no one to blame but myself.

I think a lot of people should learn to embrace their failures. When you do something wrong, don't try to rationalize it (or cheat) to make yourself feel better. Just go ahead and let yourself feel like crap, accept that you are solely (or at least primarily) responsible for your shortcomings, and that better behaviors/decisions would have mitigated your current struggles. Make these adjustments and stuff just falls into place easier in the future, and you will have the added bonus of always knowing that you earned it all, the failures and the successes.

👍

Well said, sir...

 

[Narmerguy]

I'll remark on my philosophy for lifting which also applies to learning....cheating only hurts yourself, and undermines your capacity to grow. You see those idiots at the gym that do <half-rep knee flaring squats...they will never be as strong as someone who does full squats with excellent form, no matter how much weight either of them has on the bar.

Yes but does this approach suggest that if somehow cheating could be a net-positive, it would be alright? It's perfectly feasible that though constant cheating will be a net-negative, someone who only cheats in certain extreme circumstances (perhaps once every other year or once a year, etc), will only benefit. Especially something like cheating on a final--it's over once you're done and most people forget the kind of details worth cheating over within a few weeks/months anyway.

I think not cheating has to be motivated by something other than adverse results or else you've limited yourself to only avoiding cheating in cases where it isn't in your best interest.

 

[Essene]

Exams for me are a chance to assess how much I have actually learned/retained from my studies so far...so cheating would defeat that whole purpose.

For upcoming tests I create mock quizzes and tests. Even down to minute detail.

I don't need to cheat. I cheated when I was in high school because I got lazy; but it wasn't out of necessity.

 

[Shinobiz11]

I once attempted to cheat on a Spanish exam in high school, I somehow tried to sneakily pull out my binder from under my desk, not sure what I was thinking...I knew the information too so that made it even worse, as well as embarrassing when the teacher called me out for it, lol good times. I have refined my ninja skills since then though.

 

[Geebeejay]

Yes but does this approach suggest that if somehow cheating could be a net-positive, it would be alright? It's perfectly feasible that though constant cheating will be a net-negative, someone who only cheats in certain extreme circumstances (perhaps once every other year or once a year, etc), will only benefit. Especially something like cheating on a final--it's over once you're done and most people forget the kind of details worth cheating over within a few weeks/months anyway.

I think not cheating has to be motivated by something other than adverse results or else you've limited yourself to only avoiding cheating in cases where it isn't in your best interest.

But cheating can't be a net-positive. That's the entire nature of cheating. In the long run, you have to do the work anyway, so you're only hurting yourself and cheating yourself. The fact that it hurts others is irrelevant to the amount it hurts yourself. If I cheat on the final, then I walk away from the class with less information, otherwise I would have had no reason to cheat. This is why cheating is frowned upon so much - besides the negatives on others and on the entire educational process, it also negatively affects the user itself. It may lead to vast riches, but the cheater will have an unfilled void...in this case of knowledge and ambition replaced with ignorance and laziness. And that is the main reason I choose not to cheat (morality is of course another reason).

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think that argument applies to cheating specifically.

 

[mr chievous]

Pre-meds on SDN: 90% of people here will say it's wrong to cheat.
Pre-meds outside of SDN: 90% of people will say they cheat

 

[sliceofbread136]

Cheating on a test would be way too hard and the consequences would never be the same...

 

[DAPI]

Pre-meds on SDN: 90% of people here will say it's wrong to cheat.
Pre-meds outside of SDN: 90% of people will say they cheat

Looks like it's only 80% so far

 

[Jas1360]

"What keeps you from cheating?"

Integrity

 

[MaenadsDance]

I don't cheat for a couple of reasons (yes, there can be multiple motivations - hopefully morality will be a big one, but when greed overwhelms morality, it's useful to have fear of consequences to keep yourself in line).

Probably the biggest reason I don't cheat, though, is that I've seen the hell my father, a college professor, has to go through every time he uncovers cheating. In general I like my professors, or at least respect them enough as human beings not to bald-faced lie to them and dick them around.

Also, my freshman year of high school I cheated in a major way on a science fair project, got caught (and turned in) by my parents, and had to give a big long speech in front of the class about the evils of cheating. Parents, raise yo' kids.

 

[SilverCat]

I cheated once in first grade. It was a spelling test that I knew the answers to anyway, and I got away with it. I was so proud of my accomplishment that I bragged to my mom, who punished me accordingly; I had to write a letter to my teacher.

Of course, that was the same year I thought it would be cool to be like Sailor Moon, and purposely try to get a 30% on a math test, like my heroine. As I couldn't calculate percentages, I got a 2%, and didn't care. Good times

But cheating now? I, personally, am against it.

 

[La Presse]

Cheating is for insecure schoolgirls.

 

[Narmerguy]

But cheating can't be a net-positive. That's the entire nature of cheating. In the long run, you have to do the work anyway, so you're only hurting yourself and cheating yourself. The fact that it hurts others is irrelevant to the amount it hurts yourself. If I cheat on the final, then I walk away from the class with less information, otherwise I would have had no reason to cheat. This is why cheating is frowned upon so much - besides the negatives on others and on the entire educational process, it also negatively affects the user itself. It may lead to vast riches, but the cheater will have an unfilled void...in this case of knowledge and ambition replaced with ignorance and laziness. And that is the main reason I choose not to cheat (morality is of course another reason).

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think that argument applies to cheating specifically.

Cheating can easily be a net positive. Simple example: Test includes a question that requires me to know the atomic mass of Radon. I don't have that memorized. I cheat and copy it from someone else who spent all night memorizing all the elements. I studied everything else on the test sufficiently except those sorts of minute details.

After we walk away from the test, there is no real practical situation in the real world that requires me to know the atomic mass of Radon off the top of my head. In fact, no one really expects future doctors to have atomic masses memorized, and my friend will not be any smarter or better off (after the test) for having spent 5 hours memorizing all the periodic elements. In fact, it's pretty likely he'll forget the atomic masses within a month of not using them.

So I studied 10 hours for the test and got to spend my 5 extra hours studying something else, or watching TV, or writing a book...while he spent 15 hours total studying for the test, with 5 hours spent memorizing the atomic masses of elements. At the end of the day, his knowledge of these masses will not make him a better doctor than me. And my lack of knowledge about Radon won't make me a bad doctor. And this isn't surprising. A lot of classes test really narrow pieces of detail that are irrelevant to the vast majority of society and will likely be forgotten.

There's no reason to assume all cheaters are lazy or stupid. This is commonly stated but really fails to capture a lot of the reason people cheat. Sure, some of them are chronic cheaters who can't work hard or dedicate to a task but must always cut corners. However, many cheaters are simply opportunistic. They'll study a bunch, and probably only resort to cheating in rare cases. It's hard to practically say anyone will seriously be harmed in these scenarios--the cheater isn't really sacrificing a large body of knowledge since they still study and work hard, the other students aren't affected unless the class is curved, and others in society won't really suffer if these cheats pertain to material that is trivial to the cheater's future career. Should cheating be OK in these circumstances?

 

[SLC]

I got brought into the middle of a cheating ring a few years ago. Was sent an email with answers to a test that a friend took at an earlier time. They somehow managed to grab a screenshot and get it saved before anyone noticed.

I didn't participate mainly because #1 cheating is dishonest. #2 I already had an A to that point in the class. And #3 the stakes were too high.

Get caught cheating in college and your chances at med-school are almost nil.

And I've got to think that a willingness to cheat on exams is likely to extend to a willingness to coverup mistakes elsewhere. This is not a quality that belongs with a physician.

 

[dbeast]

I don't cheat but all my girlfriends do.

 

[shootingstar7]

Cheating definitely takes the fun out of learning. I love the feeling of getting those high A's. Call me sick if you like 😛.
Besides, cheating takes a lot of effort and it doesn't always pay off. I know plenty of people who skip classes, then have to hunt down old tests, then bust their a**es to try and memorize the exam even though the stuff on it probably makes no sense to them since they weren't in class to learn it....then they show up on test day and guess what? the prof made a new test. Gahhh I love when that happens

 

[ComradeDoktor]

.

 

[TheShaker]

.

 

[angemon89]

I don't cheat but all my girlfriends do.

 

[cheesier]

Integrity stops me. I can honestly say that the thought of cheating during an exam has not crossed my mind. Plus, cheating robs you of the ability to feel proud of yourself. If you cheat and get an A, you have accomplished absolutely nothing other than lying and getting away with it, in spite of what your letter grade would imply.

 

[circulus vitios]

Whether or not you want to consider it cheating, I'm confident that everyone has at one point fudged numbers in chemistry lab. If you want to restrict to examinations, I once cheated on a calculus exam. I was stuck on a problem that required a theorem or identity that was on the tip of my tongue. I wasn't caught but it was a stupid, stupid decision that could have cost me big time.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Cheating definitely takes the fun out of learning. I love the feeling of getting those high A's. Call me sick if you like 😛.
Besides, cheating takes a lot of effort and it doesn't always pay off. I know plenty of people who skip classes, then have to hunt down old tests, then bust their a**es to try and memorize the exam even though the stuff on it probably makes no sense to them since they weren't in class to learn it....then they show up on test day and guess what? the prof made a new test. Gahhh I love when that happens

You sound like a complete tool...

 

[Josh7]

You sound like a complete tool...

👍

 

[Ashley1989]

Cheating definitely takes the fun out of learning. I love the feeling of getting those high A's. Call me sick if you like 😛.
Besides, cheating takes a lot of effort and it doesn't always pay off. I know plenty of people who skip classes, then have to hunt down old tests, then bust their a**es to try and memorize the exam even though the stuff on it probably makes no sense to them since they weren't in class to learn it....then they show up on test day and guess what? the prof made a new test. Gahhh I love when that happens

This post is really annoying to me, although I can't pinpoint exactly why. :-/

Personally, I don't cheat because the stakes are way too high and all your dreams can become dust in .00000001 seconds.

 

[Planes2Doc]

I think a lot of these responses are very interesting... I still think that SDN has a bit of a holier-than-thou attitude, and in real life, more people would cheat, and that most people do not cheat because of the severe penalties.

An interesting thing I noticed is that some people consider using old exams cheating. Why is that so? A lot of medical schools have large test banks, that all students have an equal opportunity to use these old exams. I actually use them all the time. I don't try to memorize questions, but instead use it to see why certain answers are wrong, and to see how questions are asked. It's a bonus if a question is recycled.

Also, everyone refers to "cheating" as only exams. What about homework assignments? Do you still consider copying homework cheating? Thanks for the responses! 🙂

 

[Planes2Doc]

Cheating definitely takes the fun out of learning. I love the feeling of getting those high A's. Call me sick if you like 😛.
Besides, cheating takes a lot of effort and it doesn't always pay off. I know plenty of people who skip classes, then have to hunt down old tests, then bust their a**es to try and memorize the exam even though the stuff on it probably makes no sense to them since they weren't in class to learn it....then they show up on test day and guess what? the prof made a new test. Gahhh I love when that happens

That's just being stupid. If you have access to old exams, use them in conjunction with the notes and textbook you already have. A recycled question should be a bonus, not something you rely on.

 

[487806]

I don't cheat off of other people because I'd get lower scores.

This is why cheating is useless in college (except in a top undergrad). However, in a med school, it may be tempting since you're in the same playing field as others. Still, you can cheat if you want to face severe consequences.

 

[Jas1360]

I think a lot of these responses are very interesting... I still think that SDN has a bit of a holier-than-thou attitude, and in real life, more people would cheat, and that most people do not cheat because of the severe penalties.

An interesting thing I noticed is that some people consider using old exams cheating. Why is that so? A lot of medical schools have large test banks, that all students have an equal opportunity to use these old exams. I actually use them all the time. I don't try to memorize questions, but instead use it to see why certain answers are wrong, and to see how questions are asked. It's a bonus if a question is recycled.

Also, everyone refers to "cheating" as only exams. What about homework assignments? Do you still consider copying homework cheating? Thanks for the responses! 🙂

At my school, teachers that do not want people to look at old exams will not give the exam back to the students. The other teachers will usually post a previous years exam as a test bank in order to give everyone an idea of the format and types of questions that will be asked. So I think it depends on how the old exam was obtained.

As far as homework, my professors have always been very clear about when teamwork was acceptable and when they want you to work alone. However, I have very few classes that ever actually assign homework for a grade. Usually homework is only for the benefit of the student and is not actually part of the final grade.

 

[shootingstar7]

No not a tool. Just someone who works their tail off but attends a university where cheating is rampant, at least amongst the pre-meds.

Similar to what another poster said, I've worked too hard for too long to risk throwing it away on some exam that I know I could pass simply by studying for it.

And when I meant old exams, I didn't mean the ones that the teacher provides or allows to be in circulation. I meant the ones created by students who went to office hours to "discuss their exams" with the prof and left their recording device on.

 

[Jas1360]

No not a tool. Just someone who works their tail off but attends a university where cheating is rampant, at least amongst the pre-meds.

Similar to what another poster said, I've worked too hard for too long to risk throwing it away on some exam that I know I could pass simply by studying for it.

And when I meant old exams, I didn't mean the ones that the teacher provides or allows to be in circulation. I meant the ones created by students who went to office hours to "discuss their exams" with the prof and left their recording device on.

I did not know people actually did that. Of course, at my school all of the biology and chemistry tests are handed back. There is only one department, at my school that I know of, where the teachers do not return exams and most pre-meds would not be taking those classes.