What keeps you from cheating?

[phikapdoctor]

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If the head of the CIA can't cheat then I sure don't have a shot at it.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN Mobile app please excuse punctuation and spelling

 

[Geebeejay]

If the stuff we learned in undergrad meant anything to anyone, we wouldn't be allowed to pick our own majors. With the exception of a few lower div science classes, undergraduate education is just a hell that the people in power designed for us to test out how badly we actually want to be doctors.

 

[Voevoda]

[youtube]VXNj2BobjJ4[/youtube]

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I wish I could retrofit this thread a little so we could break it down by ethnicity, as I'm thinking this is a great show of Westerner views on right and wrong, morality, etc as opposed to communal/ Eastern views on right and wrong. People born into Western culture have very rigid views on morality and laws, where as people born into Eastern, Communist, or communal societies usually have less rigid views.

Er... anyway, point being is Americans tend to be statistically have hissy fits about cheating where as the rest of the world is much less hissy about it.

 

[Geebeejay]

I wish I could retrofit this thread a little so we could break it down by ethnicity, as I'm thinking this is a great show of Westerner views on right and wrong, morality, etc as opposed to communal/ Eastern views on right and wrong. People born into Western culture have very rigid views on morality and laws, where as people born into Eastern, Communist, or communal societies usually have less rigid views.

Er... anyway, point being is Americans tend to be statistically have hissy fits about cheating where as the rest of the world is much less hissy about it.

what are you saying?....white people are more honest than others? americans are more honest than the rest of the world? That sounds like a pretty bold blanket statement.

Youd better watch out, foot in mouth disease is dangerous.

 

[Freesia88]

what are you saying?....white people are more honest than others? americans are more honest than the rest of the world? That sounds like a pretty bold blanket statement.

Youd better watch out, foot in mouth disease is dangerous.

I read the post and just kinda stared at it for moment...then decided not to respond to it.

 

[GreyEarl]

I read the post and just kinda stared at it for moment...then decided not to respond to it.

+1

😕

 

[Dr.TurkandJD]

I'm not going to get into philosophical arguments, but opinion is as follows: If you cheat, you are hurting your future patients. We all go into medicine to provide the best possible care, you can only achieve that if you truly know your material and understand medicine. Hurting your patients is the opposite of why we are going into medicine.

 

[sliceofbread136]

I'm not going to get into philosophical arguments, but opinion is as follows: If you cheat, you are hurting your future patients. We all go into medicine to provide the best possible care, you can only achieve that if you truly know your material and understand medicine. Hurting your patients is the opposite of why we are going into medicine.

you know we are talking about undergrad.... 99.9% of what you learn has really no patient helping potential.

 

[SeekerOfTheTree]

STDs.

 

[Dr.TurkandJD]

you know we are talking about undergrad.... 99.9% of what you learn has really no patient helping potential.

Did not know we are talking about UG.

 

[Ashley1989]

you know we are talking about undergrad.... 99.9% of what you learn has really no patient helping potential.

Agreed, however it still leaves much to be questioned about the individuals need to do well even if that means cutting morals (or doing something that is seen as academically "illegal") and I mean, seriously, if someone is a habitual cheater it's not just going to magically disappear once the steam rolling, b**** slapping (edit) TRAIN that is medical school comes along.

 

[Jas1360]

Agreed, however it still leaves much to be questioned about the individuals need to do well even if that means cutting morals (or doing something that is seen as academically "illegal") and I mean, seriously, if someone is a habitual cheater it's not just going to magically disappear once the steam rolling, b**** slapping roller coaster that is medical school comes along.

👍

Good point, how does someone who has to cheat through undergraduate think they will be able to handle medical school material? (assuming they suddenly stop cheating)

 

[sliceofbread136]

👍

Good point, how does someone who has to cheat through undergraduate think they will be able to handle medical school material? (assuming they suddenly stop cheating)

It's not like med school material is hard. There's just alot of it. I could see someone cheating through undergrad then working hard to get through med school.

 

[KnuxNole]

STDs.

that's why they invented condoms 😀

 

[Ashley1989]

👍

Good point, how does someone who has to cheat through undergraduate think they will be able to handle medical school material? (assuming they suddenly stop cheating)

Exactly. Getting into medical school is hard for a reason, and to cheat on that will only cheat the cheater in medical school when they struggle much more than they have to (or flunk), or cheat the patients when the cheater resorts again to cheating, only now doing it in medical school. And if miraculously the doctor doesn't have their patients someday affected medically by the cheating, the patients eventually may be cheated by the apparent comfort the doctor has with bending the rules to fit their desires soooooo just don't do it!

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

what are you saying?....white people are more honest than others? americans are more honest than the rest of the world? That sounds like a pretty bold blanket statement.

Youd better watch out, foot in mouth disease is dangerous.

No that Americans have rigid views on morality. Which is a fact. It has nothing to do with action, more with opinion and perception.
See, communal vs individual culture

 

[Ashley1989]

It's not like med school material is hard. There's just alot of it. I could see someone cheating through undergrad then working hard to get through med school.

And yet the feeling of an overwhelming life, not the difficulty of the material is usually the first cited reason when a cheater gets caught.

 

[Jas1360]

It's not like med school material is hard. There's just alot of it. I could see someone cheating through undergrad then working hard to get through med school.

The point I was making has nothing to do with the difficulty. As you said, there is a lot of material. What necessitates the need to cheat in undergrad?

If a student cannot handle undergrad to the point they think they need to cheat to get an A they are not going to suddenly become a new person first day of med school and figure out how to study.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Exactly. Getting into medical school is hard for a reason, and to cheat on that will only cheat the cheater in medical school when they struggle much more than they have to (or flunk), or cheat the patients when the cheater resorts again to cheating, only now doing it in medical school. And if miraculously the doctor doesn't have their patients someday affected medically by the cheating, the patients eventually may be cheated by the apparent comfort the doctor has with bending the rules to fit their desires soooooo just don't do it!

You're assuming that someone who cheats literally cheated an entire course to pass as oppose to cheating on one or two questions to maximize their grade, which is the case for most people. Generally my perception is that most cheaters are cheating to get from an A- to an A or a B+ to an A-, not an F to B or C. Thus your entire argument is fruitless as arguably beyond a B knowledge difference comes down to knowing minutiae that will be easily forgotten.

 

[sliceofbread136]

The point I was making has nothing to do with the difficulty. As you said, there is a lot of material. What necessitates the need to cheat in undergrad?

If a student cannot handle undergrad to the point they think they need to cheat to get an A they are not going to suddenly become a new person first day of med school and figure out how to study.

You didn't get what I said.

 

[Jas1360]

No that Americans have rigid views on morality. Which is a fact. It has nothing to do with action, more with opinion and perception.
See, communal vs individual culture

So, are you thinking that Americans (western) would be more likely to say that they do not cheat due to morality and eastern culture would say they do not cheat because of the consequences?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The point I was making has nothing to do with the difficulty. As you said, there is a lot of material. What necessitates the need to cheat in undergrad?

If a student cannot handle undergrad to the point they think they need to cheat to get an A they are not going to suddenly become a new person first day of med school and figure out how to study.

Do you see the problem with this argument? Like the A- average for MD or AB average for DO school? So obviously even if these people didn't cheat they'd probably be successful not having an A, just have a weaker application.

 

[Jas1360]

You didn't get what I said.

You said that you could see a student that cheats in undergrad changing out of motivation and doing well in medical school, correct?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

So, are you thinking that Americans (western) would be more likely to say that they do not cheat due to morality and eastern culture would say they do not cheat because of the consequences?

Probably, more the Eastern culture would be more open to examining cheating from a logical and situational basis. Basically it would be more open to a situational analysis, as opposed to black and white all cheating is evil.
But that's what the research shows.

 

[Jas1360]

Do you see the problem with this argument? Like the A- average for MD or AB average for DO school? So obviously even if these people didn't cheat they'd probably be successful not having an A, just have a weaker application.

My argument was not meant to differentiate between A, A-, B etc.
I was only saying that a person's character does not change drastically overnight. The other point was that if you are not practicing good study habits for the past four years as an undergrad you will probably have difficulty learning, or regaining, good study habits when medical school begins.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

My argument was not meant to differentiate between A, A-, B etc.
I was only saying that a person's character does not change drastically overnight. The other point was that if you are not practicing good study habits for the past four years as an undergrad you will probably have difficulty learning, or regaining, good study habits when medical school begins.

No, your argument is just a lot of assumptions that might seem common sense. But let's play along and pretend it is statistically true.
Personally speaking I think that if someone stopped cheating they might just get a few more A-'s and B+'s in classes as opposed to A's. Which is more than sufficient to get into medical school more than less. So that's the thing, plenty of people are going to med school with insufficient/bad study habits, but in your view they'd have better "character".

So this is less about performance an more about what you think the character of a successful person should have.

 

[BabyClutch]

nevermind.

 

[Jas1360]

No, your argument is just a lot of assumptions that might seem common sense.
Personally speaking I think that if someone stopped cheating they might just get a few more A-'s and B+'s in classes as opposed to A's. Which is more than sufficient to get into medical school more than less. So that's the thing, plenty of people are going to med school with insufficient/bad study habits, but in your view they'd have better "character".

So you are just saying that if the student who would get an A- is cheating to get an A, that's really not changing anything because they would still be able to handle medical school?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I cheated once in the 3rd grade. We had spelling quizzes that had the answers printed on the reverse side. One time I peaked. I felt really bad afterwards. 🙁

Cultural learning, you learn expectations/conditions of worth and feel bad when you break them..

 

[Jas1360]

No, your argument is just a lot of assumptions that might seem common sense. But let's play along and pretend it is statistically true.
Personally speaking I think that if someone stopped cheating they might just get a few more A-'s and B+'s in classes as opposed to A's. Which is more than sufficient to get into medical school more than less. So that's the thing, plenty of people are going to med school with insufficient/bad study habits, but in your view they'd have better "character".

So this is less about performance an more about what you think the character of a successful person should have.

I think that I was thinking more along the line of someone who did not study at all for their classes and cheating got them As. If they took the tests without knowing any of the material they would not be the A- student.

 

[Jas1360]

No, your argument is just a lot of assumptions that might seem common sense. But let's play along and pretend it is statistically true.
Personally speaking I think that if someone stopped cheating they might just get a few more A-'s and B+'s in classes as opposed to A's. Which is more than sufficient to get into medical school more than less. So that's the thing, plenty of people are going to med school with insufficient/bad study habits, but in your view they'd have better "character".

So this is less about performance an more about what you think the character of a successful person should have.

Setting aside character, I have seen first hand what happens when there is a professor who does a poor job and half the class cheats. It leaves the other half of the class with Cs/Ds just because of the curve and the fact that they choose not to cheat. Is cheating a problem in that situation or should the entire class just cheat?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

So you are just saying that if the student who would get an A- is cheating to get an A, that's really not changing anything because they would still be able to handle medical school?

Pretty much, it has less to do with study and more to character.
Also that and the correlation between Ugpa and med school preformence and comlex/USMLE performance isn't all that great.
But I also am part of the camp that believes getting anything above a B in a class is more about work than long term learning of anything significant. I.e chances are someone with an A probably knows meagerly more than someone with a B and that the difference in remembered information will even out within a few weeks as the difference between an A and B is minutiae, not general and important facts.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I think that I was thinking more along the line of someone who did not study at all for their classes and cheating got them As. If they took the tests without knowing any of the material they would not be the A- student.

This is not representative of most people who cheat and apply to med school. At least I'd assume that. Actually tbh, to pull this off you'd put more effort and utilize more skills than simply studying lol.
But yah, I think my scenario encompasses about >95% of people relevant to the situation. Yours is highly unlikely to actually occur.

 

[BabyClutch]

eh nevermind.

 

[Jas1360]

Pretty much, it has less to do with study and more to character.
Also that and the correlation between Ugpa and med school preformence and comlex/USMLE performance isn't all that great.
But I also am part of the camp that believes getting anything above a B in a class is more about work than long term learning of anything significant. I.e chances are someone with an A probably knows meagerly more than someone with a B and that the difference in remembered information will even out within a few weeks as the difference between an A and B is minutiae, not general and important facts.

I agree that the difference in an A and a B can be very small. Also, there is a huge difference in letter grades depending on the instructor but I don't want to start the GPA, and how its not the best indicator conversation, that's already on another thread in great detail.

So how do you feel about the drastic example I gave where cheating causes half the class (non-cheaters) to get C/Ds?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Setting aside character, I have seen first hand what happens when there is a professor who does a poor job and half the class cheats. It leaves the other half of the class with Cs/Ds just because of the curve and the fact that they choose not to cheat. Is cheating a problem in that situation or should the entire class just cheat?

So is this class a metaphor for life? Ie some people cheating or doing underhanded thinks leading them to have an advantage? Well, you tell me whether it is a problem and you tell me how we should fix that.
But yes, we all have skills and tools. I like to think of it without labeling, just like I'm not prone to labeling things as bad or good.

 

[Jas1360]

This is not representative of most people who cheat and apply to med school. At least I'd assume that. Actually tbh, to pull this off you'd put more effort and utilize more skills than simply studying lol.
But yah, I think my scenario encompasses about >95% of people relevant to the situation. Yours is highly unlikely to actually occur.

So you are basically telling me that when I get an A-, its because the pre-meds with As cheated? (I know they did not all cheat, but I really wonder how many people actually cheat, and how frequently...the world may never know).

 

[Ashley1989]

You're assuming that someone who cheats literally cheated an entire course to pass as oppose to cheating on one or two questions to maximize their grade, which is the case for most people. Generally my perception is that most cheaters are cheating to get from an A- to an A or a B+ to an A-, not an F to B or C. Thus your entire argument is fruitless as arguably beyond a B knowledge difference comes down to knowing minutiae that will be easily forgotten.

So my argument is fruitless because of "your perception" of cheaters? Get real. "Your perception" doesn't define anything other than your small reality just as my perception defines mine.

Typical SDN throwing fancy stuff around to disguise the jabber

 

[Jas1360]

So is this class a metaphor for life? Ie some people cheating or doing underhanded thinks leading them to have an advantage? Well, you tell me whether it is a problem and you tell me how we should fix that.
But yes, we all have skills and tools. I like to think of it without labeling, just like I'm not prone to labeling things as bad or good.

No, its not a metaphor, it was a real situation that occurred. So from a non black and white perspective, how would this situation be avoided? Or should the people who did not cheat, learn to cheat?

And just to understand how so many people could cheat in this particular case...graphing calculators.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

So you are basically telling me that when I get an A-, its because the pre-meds with As cheated? (I know they did not all cheat, but I really wonder how many people actually cheat, and how frequently...the world may never know).

No.

 

[lpp06]

.I might be over simplifying this but I don't cheat because I don't have to cheat

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

So my argument is fruitless because of "your perception" of cheaters? Get real. "Your perception" doesn't define anything other than your small reality just as my perception defines mine.

Typical SDN throwing fancy stuff around to disguise the jabber

No, your perception of the world is delusional. Consider how difficult and unlikely it is to exist on an extreme and that most things are usually normal in distribution.
But anyways, continue on.

 

[Jas1360]

Cultural learning, you learn expectations/conditions of worth and feel bad when you break them..

So do you think all feelings of guilt come from cultural learning? If so, have you learned to overcome this cultural learning? And do you no longer feel any guilt?

 

[devildogdoc]

Probably, more the Eastern culture would be more open to examining cheating from a logical and situational basis. Basically it would be more open to a situational analysis, as opposed to black and white all cheating is evil.
But that's what the research shows.

Oh really? So highly collectivist cultures are more prone to forgive cheating (which is really just a form of rule breaking) than individualistic ones? I'd like to know how that accords with the canings meted out in Singapore for littering, or the execution of public officials for taking bribes in China, or the public stoning of those quite literally caught cheating in Taliban Afghanistan.

Moreover, Americans forgive cheaters all the time (although we're not as blaise about it as much of Europe) such as Tiger Woods and even Bill Clinton, leader of the US, not only cheated, but LIED about it and received basically a slap on the wrist. I will agree that there may be a tendency amongst self-identified 'religious' Americans to think they're morally superior, but I highly doubt that there's a large actual difference.

If you've some links to the relevant research you didn't cite, I'd love to see them.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I might be over simplifying this but I don't cheat because I don't have to cheat.

This is my reason, not because of moralistic reasons. But rather that I don't need to actually cheat to succeed. That being said I will admit to having my eyes wander on about three occasions getting me an answer but in every occasion it had no affect on my grade.

 

[Ashley1989]

No, your perception of the world is delusional. Consider how difficult and unlikely it is to exist on an extreme and that most things are usually normal in distribution.
But anyways, continue on.

I want you to seriously, honestly break down what you just said and try and apply it to our discussion in a reasonable manner. You can't.

Are you trying to sound simultaneously smart and degrading, or do you come by it quite honestly? Either way, it's not working, you are just coming across as very theatrical.

My personal perception of the world is delusional? That's one for the books.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

So do you think all feelings of guilt come from cultural learning? If so, have you learned to overcome this cultural learning? And do you no longer feel any guilt?

I'm a Nihilist, I use logic as my compass. But anyways, I haven't overcome the guilt, that requires millions of dollars worth of therapy.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Oh really? So highly collectivist cultures are more prone to forgive cheating (which is really just a form of rule breaking) than individualistic ones? I'd like to know how that accords with the canings meted out in Singapore for littering, or the execution of public officials for taking bribes in China, or the public stoning of those quite literally caught cheating in Taliban Afghanistan.

Moreover, Americans forgive cheaters all the time (although we're not as blaise about it as much of Europe) such as Tiger Woods and even Bill Clinton, leader of the US, not only cheated, but LIED about it and received basically a slap on the wrist. I will agree that there may be a tendency amongst self-identified 'religious' Americans to think they're morally superior, but I highly doubt that there's a large actual difference.

If you've some links to the relevant research you didn't cite, I'd love to see them.

I'm on my phone, but look up collectivist culture v.s individual culture. This is a very well researched topic and your university likely has sociology courses that examine the differences.
Also research looks on OPINIONS/ PERCEPTIONS, not actions. But actions will probably show very little difference because both groups likely encounter equal amounts of pressures.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I want you to seriously, honestly break down what you just said and try and apply it to our discussion in a reasonable manner. You can't.

Are you trying to sound simultaneously smart and degrading, or do you come by it quite honestly? Either way, it's not working, you are just coming across as very theatrical.

My personal perception of the world is delusional? That's a one for the books.

I'm honored you're finding me theatrical, I'm finding you naive.
Anyways, what's easier to believe that most cheaters exist on this edge of the spectrum where they completely cheat v.s people who never cheat or rather that most people lie somewhere in between in a normal curve fashion like almost every behavioral pattern?

The point is that your perception of the world is based on a fallacious premise and thus every thing afterward will fundamentally be wrong.