What kind of involvement in research is worth my time?

[EthylMethylMan]

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I'm looking into Summer research opportunities now, and I'm wondering what kind of things I would need to be doing for the research to be worth anything on my residency application. For example, if I were just crunching data, is that even worth the time investment? Will residency directors value that at all? Are there general guidelines for this sort of thing?

 

[Pacna]

Publish or bust. Working in a lab all summer will get you nowhere unless you get a pub.

Jumping on last minute and adding your name = starting a project de novo. Nobody keeps track of it, so it looks the same on a CV. If you hear a PI say "I have an idea..." run.

Ask M2s. They're just about to start studying for step 1 and don't want to let down their PIs. You can get someone to dump their mostly-completed project/s on you EZPZ.

 

[EthylMethylMan]

Publish or bust. Working in a lab all summer will get you nowhere unless you get a pub.

Jumping on last minute and adding your name = starting a project de novo. Nobody keeps track of it, so it looks the same on a CV. If you hear a PI say "I have an idea..." run.

Ask M2s. They're just about to start studying for step 1 and don't want to let down their PIs. You can get someone to dump their mostly-completed project/s on you EZPZ.

I figured as much. My only question now is, what's a non-dick-ish way of asking to have my name added to a research project? Like, saying something along the lines of, "I'd love to be involved in your project, but only if I can get authorship." seems kinda rude. How do people go about this?

EDIT: I'm also trying to do research at some institution back home as opposed to at my school, so I wouldn't have any MSII's to contact.

 

[FindMeOnTheLinks]

I figured as much. My only question now is, what's a non-dick-ish way of asking to have my name added to a research project? Like, saying something along the lines of, "I'd love to be involved in your project, but only if I can get authorship." seems kinda rude. How do people go about this?

EDIT: I'm also trying to do research at some institution back home as opposed to at my school, so I wouldn't have any MSII's to contact.

Just ask them what type of research they have going on, what stage the project is in, and what role they envision you in. If it sounds like it's in its infancy, stay away. If it sounds like it's close to getting done, it will likely be published sometime soon. If a bunch of med students have worked on the project and none stuck around, that should be a hint that it's a $hitty project and you don't want to be involved. Likewise if the same med student has been working on it for like two years or something - it's taking too long and may well not have much potential for publication.


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[Merely]

Publish or bust. Working in a lab all summer will get you nowhere unless you get a pub.

Jumping on last minute and adding your name = starting a project de novo. Nobody keeps track of it, so it looks the same on a CV. If you hear a PI say "I have an idea..." run.

Ask M2s. They're just about to start studying for step 1 and don't want to let down their PIs. You can get someone to dump their mostly-completed project/s on you EZPZ.

This wont get you first author though

 

[evilbooyaa]

This wont get you first author though

True. But it's rare to jump into a lab and immediately get first author. You generally work your way up to it, and often times, you've left the lab before your first author paper gets published. But you help a previous med student with his first author paper (who may be a mS3/MS4 by the time it hits pubmed) and if it's a lab with a good track record, others will be around to push your paper forward in exchange for non-first authorship.

If we're talking about clinical research projects, however, all of which are database reviews, picking updates of previous series is the best because you don't have to start the database from scratch, or the end points, just add follow-ups, more patients if necessary, and re-calculate everything the last paper did. Voila, first author paper, potentially in a month.

 

[CuttingCorneas]

Some things to consider:

1. Do you have EMR access? Most schools only give access to students in their clinical years. Before you commit yourself to clinical research, make sure you can get adequate access to the data (some places are better with this than others).

2. Can you publish? For this, as others have said, you'll probably need to stay away from bench projects. Quality improvement gigs are also things that probably won't help you out too much. To get a clinical project, you need to make sure you've taken care of #1.

If you can't do a clinical project due to no EMR access or lack of available things going on, it might be worthwhile to do a QI project, but only if it can get your foot in the door of your home department. Once people know you, they might be more willing to offer you projects beginning in your clinical years.

 

[22031 Alum]

This wont get you first author though

I am one faculty member, in one specialty. But even at the most research-heavy programs I've worked for, I never once heard an applicant's 'Publications' section get picked apart, or compared to another's, for first author vs. non-first author publications. We all knew that there can be a lot of luck involved in how you are placed - for example some PIs will never let students be first author. That certainly didn't mean they weren't very involved in the project. And others will give away the coveted spot to their current favorite, even if the bulk of the work was done by someone else. The most important part is how well you are able to speak about your involvement at your interview.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I am one faculty member, in one specialty. But even at the most research-heavy programs I've worked for, I never once heard an applicant's 'Publications' section get picked apart, or compared to another's, for first author vs. non-first author publications. We all knew that there can be a lot of luck involved in how you are placed - for example some PIs will never let students be first author. That certainly didn't mean they weren't very involved in the project. And others will give away the coveted spot to their current favorite, even if the bulk of the work was done by someone else. The most important part is how well you are able to speak about your involvement at your interview.

If order is determined by amount of intellectual work done and the person doing the most intellectual work is not getting first author, I wouldn't call that being unlucky I'd call it unethical...

 

[evilbooyaa]

I am one faculty member, in one specialty. But even at the most research-heavy programs I've worked for, I never once heard an applicant's 'Publications' section get picked apart, or compared to another's, for first author vs. non-first author publications. We all knew that there can be a lot of luck involved in how you are placed - for example some PIs will never let students be first author. That certainly didn't mean they weren't very involved in the project. And others will give away the coveted spot to their current favorite, even if the bulk of the work was done by someone else. The most important part is how well you are able to speak about your involvement at your interview.

I know for certain research heavy fields, such as Rad Onc, first author publications are noted to be more significant than lower author pubs, unless they're in super high impact journals.

 

[22031 Alum]

If order is determined by amount of intellectual work done and the person doing the most intellectual work is not getting first author, I wouldn't call that being unlucky I'd call it unethical...

I don't disagree with you at all, though I reserve 'unethical' for things like falsifying data or harming patients. Still, there are people out there in the world getting "slapped-on" authorships every single day. First authorships less so, but it happens.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I don't disagree with you at all, though I reserve 'unethical' for things like falsifying data or harming patients. Still, there are people out there in the world getting "slapped-on" authorships every single day. First authorships less so, but it happens.

I see where you are coming from. It is definitely not at the level of falsifying data, but it is still unethical. Your right in that the issue is so rampant that it is the core discussion of any research ethics class. I think it is more important for students to recognize that it is a wrong practice more than anything, even if the student can't do much. I still feel the students should be okay to be upfront about authorship (asking what the order will be before real work is done) in order to avoid such issues. The hard part is not looking like you care only about publication.

I could see why some program directors would not care so much about first authorship, because of how often this practice happens. It pretty much devalues what it means to be a first author. As a person who has published and had one author (a full professor, not my PI) who was technically a "slap on," I understand how frequent it is. Again, I think it is important to be aware that it is an issue more than anything else.

 

[Rumalum]

If you don't get paid, don't do it

 

[Pacna]

If you don't get paid, don't do it

Yeah no. Do it for free if it's an awesome opportunity.