What make Orgo hard?

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rs0147

rs0147

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I'm taking Orgo 1 in the fall, and everyone talks about Orgo being a hard weed-out class. I thought it was mostly conceptual stuff that heavily depends of memorization of basic concepts (and later applying them in a more complex way), pattern recognition, & drawing zig-zag lines. I have a semester's worth of experience of Orgo from IB Chemistry in high school, and I remember it being hard, but looking back, I should have been able to grasp it more easily (I don't know why I didn't). Also, I did very badly in Gen Chem 1 (C+ class, A- lab) and 2 (B- class, A lab), so I'm actually looking forward to Orgo because I see it as a breath of fresh air (new topics, different professor & class structure). So, what is it that make college Orgo so difficult and intimidating to pre-med students, and exactly how deluded am I for looking forward to it?
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rs0147 said:
I'm taking Orgo 1 in the fall, and everyone talks about Orgo being a hard weed-out class. I thought it was mostly conceptual stuff that heavily depends of memorization of basic concepts (and later applying them in a more complex way), pattern recognition, & drawing zig-zag lines. I have a semester's worth of experience of Orgo from IB Chemistry in high school, and I remember it being hard, but looking back, I should have been able to grasp it more easily (I don't know why I didn't). Also, I did very badly in Gen Chem 1 (C+ class, A- lab) and 2 (B- class, A lab), so I'm actually looking forward to Orgo because I see it as a breath of fresh air (new topics, different professor & class structure). So, what is it that make college Orgo so difficult and intimidating to pre-med students, and exactly how deluded am I for looking forward to it?
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure you can search for similar threads regarding this.

Here's my opinion of Orgo.

1. Orgo isn't hard. It requires critical thinking, but it isn't hard.
2. Orgo 1 is pretty easy. Just focus on the concepts of stereochemistry and basic reaction patterns.
3. Honestly, as long as you understand chemical trends and basic reaction patterns, you'll do well. Mechanisms reflect on the reaction patterns.
4. The reason why premeds do poorly is because premeds memorize random stuff instead of understanding the concepts.
 
I thought Ochem wasn't as difficult as people made it to be. I didn't do too well in my gen chem classes I got B in both but I got A's in Ochem. For me Ochem made more sense and I thought it was easier than gen chem because its more about concepts and no calculations. I think people also just make it seem like a very hard class but it really isn't as long as you study.
 
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It'll take you 30 minutes just to draw a chair conformation right. Mine always looked like bowties :/

But in all seriousness: Ochem isn't that bad if you study. But this is a class where you CANNOT cram at the last minute, and you HAVE to do practice problems. Once you start getting into reactions and mechanisms, you'll have to understand how they work. Blind memorization will only get you so far...probably not far enough for an A.
 
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It's the first class most premeds have to actually use their brains in.
 
I think the problem many undergraduates have is that they try to brute force memorize every single detail. To obtain an A in Organic it is important to not only memorize basic reactions and mechanisms, but the true A students will be able to solve nearly any type of reaction because they understand and have practiced arrow pushing mechanisms and can work their way through any reaction to find the end product, etc.
 
rs0147 said:
I'm taking Orgo 1 in the fall, and everyone talks about Orgo being a hard weed-out class. I thought it was mostly conceptual stuff that heavily depends of memorization of basic concepts (and later applying them in a more complex way), pattern recognition, & drawing zig-zag lines. I have a semester's worth of experience of Orgo from IB Chemistry in high school, and I remember it being hard, but looking back, I should have been able to grasp it more easily (I don't know why I didn't). Also, I did very badly in Gen Chem 1 (C+ class, A- lab) and 2 (B- class, A lab), so I'm actually looking forward to Orgo because I see it as a breath of fresh air (new topics, different professor & class structure). So, what is it that make college Orgo so difficult and intimidating to pre-med students, and exactly how deluded am I for looking forward to it?
Click to expand...

Orgo I is the is easy part, it's usually Orgo II that will make you want to cry.
 
Grad deflation and the fact that many schools design the course to "weed-out" pre-meds and science majors.

The subject itself is a lot more intuitive than general chemistry IMO.
 
Agent B said:
I'm pretty sure you can search for similar threads regarding this.

Here's my opinion of Orgo.

1. Orgo isn't hard. It requires critical thinking, but it isn't hard.
2. Orgo 1 is pretty easy. Just focus on the concepts of stereochemistry and basic reaction patterns.
3. Honestly, as long as you understand chemical trends and basic reaction patterns, you'll do well. Mechanisms reflect on the reaction patterns.
4. The reason why premeds do poorly is because premeds memorize random stuff instead of understanding the concepts.
Click to expand...

This

I thought orgo was easier than gen chem but maybe its just me since I am good at concepts rather than rote memorization
 
mwall003 said:
I think the problem many undergraduates have is that they try to brute force memorize every single detail. To obtain an A in Organic it is important to not only memorize basic reactions and mechanisms, but the true A students will be able to solve nearly any type of reaction because they understand and have practiced arrow pushing mechanisms and can work their way through any reaction to find the end product, etc.
Click to expand...

This. Every person I've talked to who didn't do well in O-Chem studied via brute force memorization as opposed to learning the concepts. Sure, memorization apparently is something that needs to occur, but in no way should it be the primary method of studying. Memorizing everything is akin to taking a calculus class and attempting to memorize the exact steps and answers to every problem you come across as opposed to understanding how to work them out and receive an answer.
 
My biggest complaint with orgo was that they taught reactions that are hardly ever used in labs anymore and aren't relevant to biological systems.
 
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Its because high schools do a horrible job of making kids think critically, and when they come to college and take o chem in their 2nd year they think rote memorization of everything will help them do well.
 
The stigma behind it.

Orgo is not hard.
 
Because at first it can seem like a foreign language.

And at my school at least, it was a class where you actually had to have read the material before lecture to have any type of understanding of what was happening in lecture.

Thats a pretty big change for most students.

But mainly its just the first class you can't learn in a night and cram for.

After you do it and learn it, most people prefer it to physical sciences type stuff. And then less memorization than alot of bio.
 
For those of you that got B's and C's in gen chemistry, did your teacher curve the test grades at all? Im curious because I got an A but my professor curved the grades. Sometimes you gad to get a 38% to fail a test.

Sent from my DROIDX using SDN Mobile
 
Daodejing said:
It's the first class most premeds have to actually use their brains in.
Click to expand...

This.
O Chem was the first class I actually had to study for and put forth a good amount of time to study for it. This was an eye-opener for me. Which made O Chem difficult but all classes after that a breeze.

premedCarl said:
For those of you that got B's and C's in gen chemistry, did your teacher curve the test grades at all? Im curious because I got an A but my professor curved the grades. Sometimes you gad to get a 38% to fail a test.

Sent from my DROIDX using SDN Mobile
Click to expand...

😱 Wow! None of my profs curved any test or grade in my science courses. It was quite common to have half the class failing.
 
I think one of the challenging things is that it's very difficult to know if you'll be good at it before you try. At least for me, it was unlike anything I'd ever seen before, and required skills I didn't know I had (seeing in three dimensions, executing several mechanistic steps mentally, etc).
 
Orgo was my lowest grade (B- both semesters) in my 5 years of college. It just never clicked for me when I took it, which honestly probably had something to do with the fact that I only studied for it shortly before tests (3-4 days maybe), which just isn't possible to pull off in orgo as there's too much material. People say you just need to understand concepts, but in reality you also need to have a lot of background information memorized to utilize those concepts effectively (need to have your reaction mechanisms memorized, should have pKas memorized, need to have structures of important molecules/active groups memorized).

On the other hand, I found gen chem and biochem pretty easy. MCAT orgo was also a joke compared to the orgo classes I had in undergrad.
 
Once you stop calling it 'orgo', you will become smart enough to breeze right through it.
 
Taking OChem in the fall myself. Anything light on math I can excel in. From what I hear about how the course is generally structured, I feel that it will fit with how I think. I hope.
 
learn the fundamentals and you'll do fine. you have to work hard to understand the why of each reaction, not merely memorizing what happens.
 
I actually wound up acing both O-Chem I & II (A- and A+ respectively) and doing mediocre in gen chem I & II myself (B and B-).

What makes it hard is that, like others have said, it's a topic that relies more on problem solving over memorizing factual minutia. I'd say the biggest favor you could do for yourself is practice. A lot.

Don't quit when you are doing practice problems until you understand every nook and cranny about what you got right/wrong and how you got it right/wrong.

I don't if this will help but one thing that I did, which really helped me a lot, was looking at different pharmaceuticals and biological chemicals like serotonin and trying to see how I could synthesize them myself using what I learned in class. It takes practice but if you put your nose to the grindstone you can do it.

This applies more for O-chem II to but an example....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citalopram

You actually learn the techniques that allow you to synthesize compounds like the anti-depressant med linked above.
 
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circulus vitios said:
Poor teaching and awful textbooks.
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Agreed.

If you get stuck on MCAT level stuff watch Chad videos here: http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/free-stuff/1247592/m17450621/#m17450621 If you get stuck on anything not on AAMC's MCAT list (except EAS, aromaticity, donating/withdrawing groups), then you will have to find help elsewhere. (In my undergrad, professors said that they were only allowed to give out a certain number of A's, and would have to answer to someone if they gave out too many.)

I found it helpful to read the chapter before going to lecture, then reviewing class notes right after class. Getting behind in organic chem can be bad. (It seemed really easy at first, then it got hard when I stopped paying attention.)
 
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red doctober said:
My biggest complaint with orgo was that they taught reactions that are hardly ever used in labs anymore and aren't relevant to biological systems.
Click to expand...

That's what orgo is. Why do you assume that everything that you encounter has to relate to biological systems?
 
Jumoke said:
😱

Do i have to take Orgo II as my pre-med req?
Click to expand...

You are required to take 2 semesters of Organic Chemistry. Orgo II is the 2nd semester portion of Organic Chem.
 
Reactions. Just do a lot of example problems. PS, don't touch the benzene ring.
 
0kazak1 said:
Orgo I is the is easy part, it's usually Orgo II that will make you want to cry.
Click to expand...

I sucked at both, but my grade in orgo II was actually better than orgo I. It wasn't until studying for the MCAT that I figured out how to manipulate 3d molecules on paper and consistently get R/S nomenclature problems correct.
 
Jumoke said:
😱

Do i have to take Orgo II as my pre-med req?
Click to expand...
Not necessarily. There are many medical schools that only require OChem I, and will accept other courses, such as Biochemistry as substitution for OChem II.

Johns Hopkins, Harvard, DMU are some I can think of off the top of my head.
 
Eiot said:
Not necessarily. There are many medical schools that only require OChem I, and will accept other courses, such as Biochemistry as substitution for OChem II.

Johns Hopkins, Harvard, DMU are some I can think of off the top of my head.
Click to expand...

Wisconsin is another one, but they also require a semester of stats which is uncommon. It wouldn't be a smart move to limit yourself to these schools just because you're afraid of Ochem2.

I thought that Ochem2 was more interesting (don't read as easier) than Ochem1
 
It took a while for me to grasp the concept. I didn't do great in Ochem I but I finally got the hang of things in ochem II. It takes a lot of studying and practice to understand everything. What I did that helped me was that I took thorough notes of my textbook so I would know everything. And since I took notes, looking back at it was much faster than re-reading the book when reviewing. There are some chapters that I believe created the hype about ochem, but other than a few chapters ochem isn't too bad actually
 
Even though I suck at OChem now, one of the more difficult parts was you had to be able to visualize what was going on in some cases, which has elements of both natural ability and hard work. I was not perfect (I still got A's) but I had an easier time visualizing things in my head and didn't need a modeling kit all too often compared to most kids in my class, but the other kids still did fine, they just had to work for it.
 
Not hard. You just need to study, which a lot of people don't do (surprisingly).
 
0kazak1 said:
Even though I suck at OChem now, one of the more difficult parts was you had to be able to visualize what was going on in some cases, which has elements of both natural ability and hard work. I was not perfect (I still got A's) but I had an easier time visualizing things in my head and didn't need a modeling kit all too often compared to most kids in my class, but the other kids still did fine, they just had to work for it.
Click to expand...

When doing R/S nomenclature you have to rotate the molecule so the lowest priority group is in the back.

My book and my professor always talked about doing this 'in your head,' like you had to visualize the rotation. There are actually two very, very simple rules for rotating the molecules on paper without visualizing anything. THIS WAS NEVER MENTIONED BY MY PROFESSOR OR IN THE TWO TEXTBOOKS I CONSULTED. I only learned of this method when I spent time watching o-chem videos on youtube. The average o-chem textbook is such garbage.
 
circulus vitios said:
When doing R/S nomenclature you have to rotate the molecule so the lowest priority group is in the back.

My book and my professor always talked about doing this 'in your head,' like you had to visualize the rotation. There are actually two very, very simple rules for rotating the molecules on paper without visualizing anything. THIS WAS NEVER MENTIONED BY MY PROFESSOR OR IN THE TWO TEXTBOOKS I CONSULTED. I only learned of this method when I spent time watching o-chem videos on youtube. The average o-chem textbook is such garbage.
Click to expand...

The Wade or Carey books are pretty good.
 
Agent B said:
I'm pretty sure you can search for similar threads regarding this.

Here's my opinion of Orgo.

1. Orgo isn't hard. It requires critical thinking, but it isn't hard.
2. Orgo 1 is pretty easy. Just focus on the concepts of stereochemistry and basic reaction patterns.
3. Honestly, as long as you understand chemical trends and basic reaction patterns, you'll do well. Mechanisms reflect on the reaction patterns.
4. The reason why premeds do poorly is because premeds memorize random stuff instead of understanding the concepts.
Click to expand...

This exactly. Orgo is, among other things, about applying trends to solve problems. I personally found organic to be pretty easy (I also made sure to study it for at least 30 minutes every day) and got As in both sections. I was also a math major, so this type of thinking came naturally to me.
 
Finishing Org II now. For me, the subject matter is pretty droning. Mechanism, after mechanism, after mechanism. So, it is difficult to bring myself to even look at the material. I did fine, but it was a struggle due to boredom. To each, his/her own, of course.
 
Organic chemistry was initially interesting because of Breaking Bad but after taking two semesters of this dreadful topic I realized that this has no application or relativity outside of chemical laboratories.
 
scene said:
Organic chemistry was initially interesting because of Breaking Bad but after taking two semesters of this dreadful topic I realized that this has no application or relativity outside of chemical laboratories.
Click to expand...
Funny, I'm watching Breaking Bad on Netflix right now. 👍
 
So essentially, those who consider Orgo difficult are those who either don't study enough for it or don't apply the correct learning techniques to the class?

I'm still not too worried about Orgo 1, but I am dreading the Orgo 2 lab (two 3-hours blocks every week) in the spring. Oh well, at least I've got Bio 2, and Genetics to keep my spirits up (I'm not expecting them to be easy, but I'm still looking forward to them more than Orgo).
 
rs0147 said:
I'm taking Orgo 1 in the fall, and everyone talks about Orgo being a hard weed-out class. I thought it was mostly conceptual stuff that heavily depends of memorization of basic concepts (and later applying them in a more complex way), pattern recognition, & drawing zig-zag lines. I have a semester's worth of experience of Orgo from IB Chemistry in high school, and I remember it being hard, but looking back, I should have been able to grasp it more easily (I don't know why I didn't). Also, I did very badly in Gen Chem 1 (C+ class, A- lab) and 2 (B- class, A lab), so I'm actually looking forward to Orgo because I see it as a breath of fresh air (new topics, different professor & class structure). So, what is it that make college Orgo so difficult and intimidating to pre-med students, and exactly how deluded am I for looking forward to it?
Click to expand...

The zig-zag lines also represent 3D structures, so you also need to be able to perceive these structures and reactions in 3D when it comes to stereochemistry. Some people find it hard. Some people also can't pick up on the fundamental logic that all the reactions follow, and instead try to memorize reactions.
 
It's hard because people try to MEMORIZE. Then when they see reactions on the test that don't look like what they learned in lecture they start guessing and bomb the test.

Don't "memorize" ochem, try to picture electron movement.
 
rs0147 said:
So essentially, those who consider Orgo difficult are those who either don't study enough for it or don't apply the correct learning techniques to the class?

I'm still not too worried about Orgo 1, but I am dreading the Orgo 2 lab (two 3-hours blocks every week) in the spring. Oh well, at least I've got Bio 2, and Genetics to keep my spirits up (I'm not expecting them to be easy, but I'm still looking forward to them more than Orgo).
Click to expand...

It's both. To do well in Orgo:

1. Understand the concepts.

2. Practice.

And don't worry about Orgo 2 (even the lab). The reactions are harder but they can be easily understood by using the basic concepts from Orgo 1.
 
It's not difficult. I go to UF too and I took Miller for orgo 1. I thought it was easy. I think people say it is difficult because they don't study it properly. Good luck, though!
 
M51 said:
It's not difficult. I go to UF too and I took Miller for orgo 1. I thought it was easy. I think people say it is difficult because they don't study it properly. Good luck, though!
Click to expand...

I wanted his section! It filled up so quickly though! I chose Portmess instead. Even though he's harder, he's apparently a great teacher and better at preparing his students for Orgo 2/Biochem/MCAT than the other professors. (It also balanced out my schedule more).
 
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