What mental health shortage?

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NeedAdvicelol

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I don't quite get it. Been seeing people harp left and right that there is a "shortage" of psychiatrists/providers/prescribers etc. whatever you call them. Yet when I do a google search, right away I see 20+ that can be scheduled within the week (granted most of them telehealth but some in person as well). And I live in an area that is not high on the list for desirability either.

I guess they're referring to inpatient roles having a shortage? Trying to consider these factors for my own career planning... was thinking of doing my own PP down the line but want some input on the ease of patient recruitment these days.
 
It's medicaid... the issue is medicaid.

Opioid Use disorder also predominantly = medicaid.

Who is taking the medicaid? That's the shortage. That's the issue.

Then you have Big Box shops just don't refer outside their shop. So a 6 month wait for them, but in the community is far less.

I'm now discovering in middle of nowhere the 'do everything' FM docs also don't refer, but gosh they should. When I do finally get patients come in I see their mess of management for the past X amount of years - never mind the ARNP super mismanagement.
 
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It's medicaid... the issue is medicaid.

Opioid Use disorder also predominantly = medicaid.

Who is taking the medicaid? That's the shortage. That's the issue.

Then you have Big Box shops just don't refer outside their shop. So a 6 month wait for them, but in the community is far less.

I'm now discovering in middle of nowhere the 'do everything' FM docs also don't refer, but gosh they should. When I do finally get patients come in I see their mess of management for the past X amount of years - never mind the ARNP super mismanagement.

Yea... as I thought. For people with normal insurance its as easy as finding a hairdresser I feel like. Folks pushing for expansion need to stipulate that the new PMHNP or residency slots go towards solving the actual shortage vs just crowding more and more people into select higher paying segments (which ironically cuts the pie for everyone else, themselves included). Not going to happen but alas.
 
The solution to the medicaid issue is as simple as a tax change.

I can't deduct lower reimbursement, or bad debt, or lack or payment...

Change it so private practice can deduct those losses from taxes?

You bet I'd be taking medicaid again!!
 
yea, there really is no shortage and especially medical education needs to stop misleading young physicians into thinking they are set for the rest of their career. The competition is real. Even for medicaid patients. In my area, Medicaid is reimbursing on average about 20% less than the typical commercial rates. Factor in high deductible plans and standard collection rates for commercial accounts, it's pretty comparable. Best to just take Medicaid. It's a great space filler and if you can drum up enough reputation and demand for higher paying accounts, kudos to you and you prioritize the cases with better payout. I feel like an old fart saying this, but younger physicians can come across really entitled and clueless on finishing residency. You still gotta earn your market worth. It's true of any industry, basic laws of economics. Where there is money, there is competition.
 
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Yea... as I thought. For people with normal insurance its as easy as finding a hairdresser I feel like. Folks pushing for expansion need to stipulate that the new PMHNP or residency slots go towards solving the actual shortage vs just crowding more and more people into select higher paying segments (which ironically cuts the pie for everyone else, themselves included). Not going to happen but alas.
don't forget we are also competing with PCPs and that includes other MDs and DOs.
Physicians of other specialties are cashing in on this. It's much more straight forward than a super complex medical case with the same payout. Plus, patients are realizing it is cheaper to see their PCP, especially if they catch their PCP during an annual physical for psychotropic refill. Insurance categorizes the physical as preventative care, so not subject to deductible or even copay much of the time and PCPs are often comfortable with giving 12 months worth.
 
The short of it is...PP for me was worth it. But it only works if the provider is
-ready to compete
-provides a well above average service

If someone is just so so or less, better to take a salary position or something big box. PP is high risk but high potential reward. It's all about finding what you thrive in and what your strengths are.
 
Yeah but we've had this back and forth before here, the people that are "refill your lexapro and come back to see me in 6 months" don't really need to be seeing a psychiatrist. They certainly wouldn't be seeing a pulmonologist or cardiologist either that often or at all if they were stable.

But yes I don't think there's as much of a shortage as people think in terms of there physically being bodies able to see patients. Now the quality of those bodies....
 
Yeah but we've had this back and forth before here, the people that are "refill your lexapro and come back to see me in 6 months" don't really need to be seeing a psychiatrist. They certainly wouldn't be seeing a pulmonologist or cardiologist either that often or at all if they were stable.

But yes I don't think there's as much of a shortage as people think in terms of there physically being bodies able to see patients. Now the quality of those bodies....
Yes, there is definitely a gray area! Some things pcps can manage. But some pcps are waaaaay too comfortable with
-benzos
-stims
-clozaril

It's a very mixed bag.
 
There are some very rural areas that still struggle with shortages. Not only are these areas in general decline, but they also tend to not have very favorable views of mental health providers/treatment. Similarly, in my area medicaid coverage is quite sparse, there are options that exist but are certainly quite limited.

Psychiatry training spots have increased significantly, as have the number of mid-levels working in the mental health space. You aren't walking into a wide open space where anyone breathing has immediate demand. That said, there is an increasing demand and amount of psychopathology, unless something significant changes, I would certainly expect to be able to find work if you are competent.
 
Um, I'm glad you're all doing great on hiring. I can tell you that the VA still has lots and lots of jobs to fill and long, long wait times. The pay is better than Medicaid! (It's the literal average of a given geographic area by statute.) All postings on usajobs.gov are being deleted prior to the new fiscal year, so the new postings will go up soon after 10/1 for those interested!
 
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I think it depends on what type of job we are looking for. There's a lot of schedules and pay grades that aren't really my preference. No surprise, like any industry, the cushier and more coveted positions have more competition. As individuals, we all vary in window for being satisfied. If it's a narrower window, compete more. If satisfaction window is wider, there's abundance. But more often than not, I encounter physicians who come out of training expecting $400 an hour for doing work a fresh NP grad can do. That's pretty hard to come by. I mean yes, we worked hard and deserve to experience fruits of our labor. But we live in an imperfect world where the only guarantee is change. Lots of hard work does not always promise pay off. But being adaptable --- the chances are higher.
--consistent with my prior posts: if you are hot, charming and throw in some other attractive characteristics, some things are more reachable HA!
 
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Yes, there is definitely a gray area! Some things pcps can manage. But some pcps are waaaaay too comfortable with
-benzos
-stims
-clozaril

It's a very mixed bag.
Wait, what now?

I don't like writing any anti-psychotics but I sure as heck am not writing for that ever.
 
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Yea. Its Medicaid, mostly. Along with lack of evidence-based and quality therapeutic intervention services.

There are actually many "services" available to the Medicaid population in terms of "Community based Services"....but alot of it it is wasted by incompetence, poor/no treatment plan, and fruitless attempts to make mental health tx "fix" systemic issues in/of current society.
 
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Yea... as I thought. For people with normal insurance its as easy as finding a hairdresser I feel like. Folks pushing for expansion need to stipulate that the new PMHNP or residency slots go towards solving the actual shortage vs just crowding more and more people into select higher paying segments (which ironically cuts the pie for everyone else, themselves included). Not going to happen but alas.
Yes and no. Yes, having normal insurance makes it far easier, but if a patient wants an actual psychiatrist and not an NP there are still many places where this is difficult. Even more so if a patient wants someone who is in person, regardless of their coverage type. For my telehealth clinic I'm one of 3 psychiatrist/physicians I'm aware of that provides care in half of my state. As far as I know there are zero CAPs now (the one from our clinic went back to their home state).

Yea. Its Medicaid, mostly. Along with lack of evidence-based and quality, therapeutic intervention services.

There are actually many "services" available to the Medicaid population in terms of "Community based Services"....but alot of it it wasted by incompetence, poor/no treatment plan, and fruitless attempts to make mental health tx "fix" systemic issues" in/of current society.
Depends on the state. In the half of the state I'm talking about there are 4 CBHCs covering around 40,000 sq miles. Some patients were literally driving >90 minutes for appointments before telehealth.
 
If you really need to see a CAP, you're probably going to have problems in most places. Also, I concur that in much of the country if you really need to see a mental health prescriber in person (NP, MD or PA), you're probably going to have problems, even with middling private insurance. It'll be much less of a problem in urban areas.
 
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If you really need to see a CAP, you're probably going to have problems in most places. Also, I concur that in much of the country if you really need to see a mental health prescriber in person (NP, MD or PA), you're probably going to have problems, even with middling private insurance. It'll be much less of a problem in urban areas.
Define..."problems." What does that mean?
 
Wait, what now?

I don't like writing any anti-psychotics but I sure as heck am not writing for that ever.

Yeah i was gonna say, you're hard pressed sometimes to get psychiatrists to start clozapine vs two antipsychotics lol
Yea, I have seen it. Fortunately not commonly. It comes more from, you don't know what you don't know. So the folks who are too comfortable tend to have further knowledge gaps which is not a surprise....
 
The short of it is...PP for me was worth it. But it only works if the provider is
-ready to compete
-provides a well above average service

If someone is just so so or less, better to take a salary position or something big box. PP is high risk but high potential reward. It's all about finding what you thrive in and what your strengths are.

Also starting 8-9 years ago was a big advantage than today with all the NPs and a good chunk of patients dont know the difference.

If i were starting today it would be very tough to say the least. I only do 1-1.5 a day PP plus tele and for sure there is a difference in demand and volume of non medicaid. Whatever shortage window there was is def over and too many pcps are also loving to experiment once they do there genesight tests. I def have picked up more hours in my main gig as the PP has slowed a touch but have always had the work ethic that it could have happened at any point so glad i invested and saved with all this in mind. My EM friends got burned a few years back thinking their field was going to stay stay as strong as the first few years out and not all worked extra hard banking on the trend would continue. I def took notice of that.

But the employed jobs are very plentiful.

Edit: My advice has always been to all the newbies to work and reach FI as soon as possible within reason. As i get ready to leave my 30s i def dont have the motivation of my early 30s.
 
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By problems, I mean you're going to have to call most of your private insurance's in network list with most of those not accepting new patients and the ones who aren't, booked out more than 30 days.
 
Also starting 8-9 years ago was a big advantage than today with all the NPs and a good chunk of patients dont know the difference.

If i were starting today it would be very tough to say the least. I only do 1-1.5 a day PP plus tele and for sure there is a difference in demand and volume of non medicaid. Whatever shortage window there was is def over and too many pcps are also loving to experiment once they do there genesight tests. I def have picked up more hours in my main gig as the PP has slowed a touch but have always had the work ethic that it could have happened at any point so glad i invested and saved with all this in mind. My EM friends got burned a few years back thinking their field was going to stay stay as strong as the first few years out and not all worked extra hard banking on the trend would continue. I def took notice of that.

But the employed jobs are very plentiful.

Edit: My advice has always been to all the newbies to work and reach FI as soon as possible within reason. As i get ready to leave my 30s i def dont have the motivation of my early 30s.
Very solid advice on the edit. We need to spread our risk and have different buckets of income sources. We can't and never really were in a place to rely on job or income security of any profession really.

Speaking of people practicing out of their scope, yes, I've seen MD/DO make some pretty big boo boos. I know we harp on NPs and PAs a lot but things I've seen in the primary care office are
-too liberal with benzo and stims and once patient gets aggressive/drug seeking -->REFER TO PSYCH!!! I decline those.
-yes, clozaril prescriptions. I only know about these after hearing of bad outcomes...unfortunately
-there's a fam med doc who markets himself as an ADHD expert and puts everyone on stims. He also had a podcast and touts himself as an expert! I primarily found out of him because a patient in my office on an MAOI, we got an alert from the insurance company of a potential interaction of parnate with adderall
-seen primary care also voluntarily prescribe suboxone/methadone and give high risk patients a month supply....needless to say, bad outcome and no UDS...

On the other end, I've met some very respectable PCPs, NPs, PAs that know well where their knowledge gets limited. There's an interesting relationship between humility and how well a provider practices, at least from what I have seen. I really enjoy collaborating with well rounded providers. Find them knowledgeable and nice personalities to work with.
 
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The issue isn't a shortage of physicians, but an uneven distribution of them. I completed residency in a major city with no shortage of physicians. Even the weakest residents from my class have jobs. There is no problem with patient recruitment. If you can't find patients yourself, then join someone who can.

Does anyone have stories of psychiatrists who cannot get a job and are unemployed? I think this is extremely rare.
 
Things are great now but with how many new psychiatry residency spots seem to be opening up, and all the NPs joining the psych gravy train, things are starting to turn slowly, and will really hit the brakes once the economy finally slows down IMO.

I work in a place where nobody historically wanted to work, and even here people are now being turned away
 
Things are great now but with how many new psychiatry residency spots seem to be opening up, and all the NPs joining the psych gravy train, things are starting to turn slowly, and will really hit the brakes once the economy finally slows down IMO.

I work in a place where nobody historically wanted to work, and even here people are now being turned away
I graduated roughly 10 years ago. I'd even say, the turn of the tide was obvious even then. I had to compete really hard to build up my panel.

The only promise is change...
Never ceases to surprise me when colleague physicians (psychologists too) seem blindsided by the economical waves. imho believing that we are "set" for our life just because we have a piece of paper and some letters behind our name is very naive. It's like putting all your earnings in one stock. It may be doing good now but there is always return to the mean. It's smarter to learn to ride waves and not assume there will always be a good one ; ).

I'm doing less training of residents now ... in part because some younger physicians clearly do not want to hear to truth and want to believe what they want to believe. And the local program directors perpetuate it, no thanks, no thanks. So I'm looking into other platforms to stay engaged with the community where there is actually more discussion versus wasting my time saying something that goes into one ear and out the other. But I had to stay professional and literally refrain from bursting into laughter when a resident told me on graduation that
-they plan to be wfh permanently with hours of 9a-2p
-have a subscription model where you pay $300 a month to have the "privilege" of being their patient
-no insurance accepted
-plans to stay home until retirement and have a passive income stream of 300k a year
--->last I heard, this person quickly returned to a physical office to work. Started taking insurance including ones that pay less than medicaid because they could not secure good contracts as a small entity. they are begging for referrals. anything, anything at all. And doling out stims.

I told them, I know plenty of cash practices for far cheaper and they are not making it. It includes oodles of candy men. Bruh, tons of pcps will do it for free!
 
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There's areas, even in the Northeast, that have certain specialties with zero or one providers in entire counties. Getting a hack of a therapist is easy, but getting a good one is nearly impossible, while private psych providers offering in-person appointments to patients with private insurance are few and far between. Medicaid patients actually have it a lot easier, as they have the community mental health centers which have ample NPs at their disposal.

Many of the patients I work with are very happy to be working with "an actual doctor" versus an NP and have had relatively poor management from NPs and PCPs (if I get one more patient that is on Pristiq with no prior med trials due to a CYP2D6 moderate interaction on Genesight testing...). There's still a dearth of specific services like neuropsych testing (all of which is cash-only in my area and has waitlists of 8+ months an hour East). Mind you, this is in the Northeast, about an hour and a half from a major metro. I'm also still constantly getting harassed by recruiters, so clearly someone is hiring
 
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I graduated roughly 10 years ago. I'd even say, the turn of the tide was obvious even then. I had to compete really hard to build up my panel.

The only promise is change...
Never ceases to surprise me when colleague physicians (psychologists too) seem blindsided by the economical waves. imho believing that we are "set" for our life just because we have a piece of paper and some letters behind our name is very naive. It's like putting all your earnings in one stock. It may be doing good now but there is always return to the mean. It's smarter to learn to ride waves and not assume there will always be a good one ; ).

I'm doing less training of residents now ... in part because some younger physicians clearly do not want to hear to truth and want to believe what they want to believe. And the local program directors perpetuate it, no thanks, no thanks. So I'm looking into other platforms to stay engaged with the community where there is actually more discussion versus wasting my time saying something that goes into one ear and out the other. But I had to stay professional and literally refrain from bursting into laughter when a resident told me on graduation that
-they plan to be wfh permanently with hours of 9a-2p
-have a subscription model where you pay $300 a month to have the "privilege" of being their patient
-no insurance accepted
-plans to stay home until retirement and have a passive income stream of 300k a year
--->last I heard, this person quickly returned to a physical office to work. Started taking insurance including ones that pay less than medicaid because they could not secure good contracts as a small entity. they are begging for referrals. anything, anything at all. And doling out stims.

I told them, I know plenty of cash practices for far cheaper and they are not making it. It includes oodles of candy men. Bruh, tons of pcps will do it for free!

If you're going to do the PP telehealth thing, I'd say you need to make your peace with seeing people either before 9 AM or after 5 PM, preferably both. Part of your value proposition is that the appointments don't eat up as much of someone's day which means you need to be accommodating people who have traditional jobs and a premium on their time.
 
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I don't personally understand patients wanting to ever see a MH provider in person. Unless you live next door, you're going to always be spending almost double the time traveling (during business hours) than you will in any session. That said, there are definitely reasons an employer would want a physician on site. I do think permanent WFH is likely the greatest fantasy current residents have.
 
I don't personally understand patients wanting to ever see a MH provider in person. Unless you live next door, you're going to always be spending almost double the time traveling (during business hours) than you will in any session. That said, there are definitely reasons an employer would want a physician on site. I do think permanent WFH is likely the greatest fantasy current residents have.
If you worked 30hrs/week, and had 30 days of vacation/yr, would your preference remain?
 
I don't personally understand patients wanting to ever see a MH provider in person. Unless you live next door, you're going to always be spending almost double the time traveling (during business hours) than you will in any session. That said, there are definitely reasons an employer would want a physician on site. I do think permanent WFH is likely the greatest fantasy current residents have.

I mean if you're within a 15-20 minute radius no you won't. Again, if you're seeing people for 15min "med checks" (whatever the f that means) then sure, what's your value proposition and why can't they just go back to their PCP for that?

At least 75% of my appointments are in person. Again, vast majority kids but I have adults who highly prefer to be seen in person as well.
 
If you're going to do the PP telehealth thing, I'd say you need to make your peace with seeing people either before 9 AM or after 5 PM, preferably both. Part of your value proposition is that the appointments don't eat up as much of someone's day which means you need to be accommodating people who have traditional jobs and a premium on their time.
Totally! Unfortunately, this overconfidence comes from the miseducation being doled out by the local training programs (the medical knowledge is great but the career development is an expert course on how to make a donkey out of yourself). I suspect it's not just specific to one geographic area. Maybe the below is tmi, but I was floored at the mentality being promoted in some academic settings and no wonder some physicians struggle with career advancement if the head of the department promotes certain attitudes.

Graduates are coming out thinking they are so hot to trot that they are ready to take the PP risk with ridiculous expectations. I feel for the recent grad I just spoke of--but it's also a complicated story and trouble they invited to themselves. They have massive student debt from private schools, and compounding loan interest. They actually were in an elective at my office and I provided didactics about how to financially prepare for PP but they took none of the advice. I actually offered a job that pays over $300 an hour and they did not take it (because they wanted wfh permanently), confident they could make this thing work on their terms (which is fine but speaks to the degree of miseducation they are getting). As graduation approached, they realized the terrain is pretty dry and DL they were trying to solicit patients out of my practice. I have no qualms of if the patient wants to follow someone elsewhere--but at least be transparent so I know no one is lost in unintentional or neglectful patient abandonment. But there were actually patients who wanted to stay in the practice and when they elected not to follow the resident, the resident
-never told anyone here
-patient was left with no follow up appointment here
-patient called later out of refills and asking why continuity of care was not provided
-no documentation in chart of disposition

Of note, I did tell the trainee if they would not be continuing at the practice, what the protocol is for providing options and continuity. So there were clear instructions but certain practices performed with a degree of secrecy.

Towards the latter part of the elective, I caught on that something strange was going on.
When some patients tried to start to transition out to where the grad was going, they were kind of blindsided by the pricing and under the impression it would be an in network service at the affordable copay they were used to. Patients were upset at this questionable practice they got exposed to and clinical risk in continuity. It made for bad PR of the clinic, and the training program. So one part of the elective was fire fighting and working together with the trainee to clean up the mess that was initiated without my knowledge.

I brought this up to the PD and said this is a good learning point to discuss work place politics, etiquette, patient continuity and all sorts of concepts. Since the trust was lost, I did feel a need to take some of this into my own hands and mitigate the disposition myself to ensure no one fell through the cracks. The PD balked and somewhat accused the practice of trying to retain patients for profit and potentially trying to break the sacred physician patient relationship in the name of money. Despite the overwhelming evidence of why a practice founder would be concerned and lose trust. The PD said the resident was doing me a "favor" because "it's so hard to find a psychiatrist." (I told them any PCP can refill, don't get too comfy). PD was confident this PP the person was pursuing was going to take off and I was just bitter about not being able to add such a high value provider to the practice. I was basically told to let the trainee continue to handle things on their own (telling patients it would be a smooth transition with them at the new place) because "patients have the right to see whoever they want." Which is true but they were in the dark about the cost -- so who's left holding the bag when they try to have their new appt but at 10x the price? And if they decide to not pay up and try to return to Dr. R's office, the practice here needs to prepared for their return--lots of logistics need to be coordinated (patients can't just show up wherever they please, when they please). I told the PD, sounds beautiful if a patient can see whoever they want (tell that to a Medicaid patient--or even a commercially insured one on a tight budget!), but you forgot the economic limitations. And yet, here the PD comes in, with no work experience in the PP setting: making accusations and ordering me how to run my practice? I wonder where the hubris comes from (and that type of learned attitude no employer would be excited to work with, sure a provider may get hired but they won't be rushing to promote that person or pay them more---promise ya that). They also said telecare is the new future. And they transitioned lots of residency functions to remote. I did offer to do a didactic about how to thrive in the market whether in PP or other settings and be in a good negotiation space but the department said they have high quality didactics already and psychiatrists are in hawt hawt hawt demand. I was eventually invited to do a lecture. But it was such a cringy experience I canceled the elective and the didactic. It's odd that the department also told residency applicants of the unique and useful teaching provided at this office to market the program but yet behind the scenes there's these weird politics. It was like, if you find the teaching so valuable, don't be disrespectful of it then.

I really hope training programs add faculty that have more robust work experience. There's many in academia making statements about the terrain that are not accurate in part due to their own limited work experience, let alone good career advice to other physicians. It was a great illustration of advising on something you don't know squat about. Ok, off my soap box and done with the rant.

I don't personally understand patients wanting to ever see a MH provider in person. Unless you live next door, you're going to always be spending almost double the time traveling (during business hours) than you will in any session. That said, there are definitely reasons an employer would want a physician on site. I do think permanent WFH is likely the greatest fantasy current residents have.
I've noticed statistically when given the option, patients opt for an in person experience. They seem to appreciate the full experience and body language. Especially with therapy. Minority of the time I've seen people elect for remote visits is
-tight schedule
-long distance
-transportation issues, especially the impoverished population
 
Totally! Unfortunately, this overconfidence comes from the miseducation being doled out by the local training programs (the medical knowledge is great but the career development is an expert course on how to make a donkey out of yourself). I suspect it's not just specific to one geographic area. Maybe the below is tmi, but I was floored at the mentality being promoted in some academic settings and no wonder some physicians struggle with career advancement if the head of the department promotes certain attitudes.

Graduates are coming out thinking they are so hot to trot that they are ready to take the PP risk with ridiculous expectations. I feel for the recent grad I just spoke of--but it's also a complicated story and trouble they invited to themselves. They have massive student debt from private schools, and compounding loan interest. They actually were in an elective at my office and I provided didactics about how to financially prepare for PP but they took none of the advice. I actually offered a job that pays over $300 an hour and they did not take it (because they wanted wfh permanently), confident they could make this thing work on their terms (which is fine but speaks to the degree of miseducation they are getting). As graduation approached, they realized the terrain is pretty dry and DL they were trying to solicit patients out of my practice. I have no qualms of if the patient wants to follow someone elsewhere--but at least be transparent so I know no one is lost in unintentional or neglectful patient abandonment. But there were actually patients who wanted to stay in the practice and when they elected not to follow the resident, the resident
-never told anyone here
-patient was left with no follow up appointment here
-patient called later out of refills and asking why continuity of care was not provided
-no documentation in chart of disposition

Of note, I did tell the trainee if they would not be continuing at the practice, what the protocol is for providing options and continuity. So there were clear instructions but certain practices performed with a degree of secrecy.

Towards the latter part of the elective, I caught on that something strange was going on.
When some patients tried to start to transition out to where the grad was going, they were kind of blindsided by the pricing and under the impression it would be an in network service at the affordable copay they were used to. Patients were upset at this questionable practice they got exposed to and clinical risk in continuity. It made for bad PR of the clinic, and the training program. So one part of the elective was fire fighting and working together with the trainee to clean up the mess that was initiated without my knowledge.

I brought this up to the PD and said this is a good learning point to discuss work place politics, etiquette, patient continuity and all sorts of concepts. Since the trust was lost, I did feel a need to take some of this into my own hands and mitigate the disposition myself to ensure no one fell through the cracks. The PD balked and somewhat accused the practice of trying to retain patients for profit and potentially trying to break the sacred physician patient relationship in the name of money. Despite the overwhelming evidence of why a practice founder would be concerned and lose trust. The PD said the resident was doing me a "favor" because "it's so hard to find a psychiatrist." (I told them any PCP can refill, don't get too comfy). PD was confident this PP the person was pursuing was going to take off and I was just bitter about not being able to add such a high value provider to the practice. I was basically told to let the trainee continue to handle things on their own (telling patients it would be a smooth transition with them at the new place) because "patients have the right to see whoever they want." Which is true but they were in the dark about the cost -- so who's left holding the bag when they try to have their new appt but at 10x the price? And if they decide to not pay up and try to return to Dr. R's office, the practice here needs to prepared for their return--lots of logistics need to be coordinated (patients can't just show up wherever they please, when they please). I told the PD, sounds beautiful if a patient can see whoever they want (tell that to a Medicaid patient--or even a commercially insured one on a tight budget!), but you forgot the economic limitations. And yet, here the PD comes in, with no work experience in the PP setting: making accusations and ordering me how to run my practice? I wonder where the hubris comes from (and that type of learned attitude no employer would be excited to work with, sure a provider may get hired but they won't be rushing to promote that person or pay them more---promise ya that). They also said telecare is the new future. And they transitioned lots of residency functions to remote. I did offer to do a didactic about how to thrive in the market whether in PP or other settings and be in a good negotiation space but the department said they have high quality didactics already and psychiatrists are in hawt hawt hawt demand. I was eventually invited to do a lecture. But it was such a cringy experience I canceled the elective and the didactic. It's odd that the department also told residency applicants of the unique and useful teaching provided at this office to market the program but yet behind the scenes there's these weird politics. It was like, if you find the teaching so valuable, don't be disrespectful of it then.

I really hope training programs add faculty that have more robust work experience. There's many in academia making statements about the terrain that are not accurate in part due to their own limited work experience, let alone good career advice to other physicians. It was a great illustration of advising on something you don't know squat about. Ok, off my soap box and done with the rant.


I've noticed statistically when given the option, patients opt for an in person experience. They seem to appreciate the full experience and body language. Especially with therapy. Minority of the time I've seen people elect for remote visits is
-tight schedule
-long distance
-transportation issues, especially the impoverished population


Hold on. Did I read this right? A resident tried to steal one of your patients? If so, I would have failed the resident right there.

I sometimes get residents or medical students but there are very few I enjoy working with so I try not to get them. They often slow me down.

I remember in the past one of the posters here, who later revealed to be a very low earner, talk about an academic attending physician giving advice about building private practice. I responded that I would not pay attention to advice from someone who doesn’t have experience building private practices and doesn’t make much from their academic job. There was a response from that poster that not everyone is motivated to make money, which got quite a few likes. Strange. It seems there is an inverse correlation between people who thrives in academic institutions and the ability to make money.

If I was in your shoes, I would no longer teach residents. You’re probably doing this as a way to give back and I doubt you’re paid much to teach, if at all.
 
I've noticed statistically when given the option, patients opt for an in person experience. They seem to appreciate the full experience and body language. Especially with therapy. Minority of the time I've seen people elect for remote visits is
-tight schedule
-long distance
-transportation issues, especially the impoverished population

Physician training is basically the highest level of "I'm the only one qualified to determine if they have MDD or they are anemic". That's like 50% of the DSM. I don't know why you guys don't want to use a practice parameter that recognizes the area in which you are literally superior.
 
I don't personally understand patients wanting to ever see a MH provider in person. Unless you live next door, you're going to always be spending almost double the time traveling (during business hours) than you will in any session. That said, there are definitely reasons an employer would want a physician on site. I do think permanent WFH is likely the greatest fantasy current residents have.
I really don't like telehealth, I feel it is harder to get a real feel for people. It also leads to lower buy-in from a lot of patients in their care, at least when you're working with Medicaid populations. And finally, I really like separating my work and personal life completely, so working from home sounds like hell to me
 
I graduated roughly 10 years ago. I'd even say, the turn of the tide was obvious even then. I had to compete really hard to build up my panel.

The only promise is change...
Never ceases to surprise me when colleague physicians (psychologists too) seem blindsided by the economical waves. imho believing that we are "set" for our life just because we have a piece of paper and some letters behind our name is very naive. It's like putting all your earnings in one stock. It may be doing good now but there is always return to the mean. It's smarter to learn to ride waves and not assume there will always be a good one ; ).

I'm doing less training of residents now ... in part because some younger physicians clearly do not want to hear to truth and want to believe what they want to believe. And the local program directors perpetuate it, no thanks, no thanks. So I'm looking into other platforms to stay engaged with the community where there is actually more discussion versus wasting my time saying something that goes into one ear and out the other. But I had to stay professional and literally refrain from bursting into laughter when a resident told me on graduation that
-they plan to be wfh permanently with hours of 9a-2p
-have a subscription model where you pay $300 a month to have the "privilege" of being their patient
-no insurance accepted
-plans to stay home until retirement and have a passive income stream of 300k a year
--->last I heard, this person quickly returned to a physical office to work. Started taking insurance including ones that pay less than medicaid because they could not secure good contracts as a small entity. they are begging for referrals. anything, anything at all. And doling out stims.

I told them, I know plenty of cash practices for far cheaper and they are not making it. It includes oodles of candy men. Bruh, tons of pcps will do it for free!

I'm glad I'm not the only one who shares this sentiment. As a recent grad myself I was confused at first with reality vs. hype I was fed throughout residency and med school. I feel like PDs have a different agenda- gotta paint as rosy of a picture as possible to fill those ranks.

Some of you mentioned that it's easy to find a job. Yes, that is true for now, but the next big change I foresee, bigger than any AI or RFK anti-psych rhetoric, comes from PE/corporations. Since the pandemic there has been an explosion of new startups to get psych appointments. However in direct contrast to their stated theme of expanding access, these startups only expanded access to patients with the means/good insurance. With their flashy Wall street money they seem to be able to attract new grads (albeit overwork them, but hey, you just survived residency, right?) Throw money into patient acquisition, provider acquisition, slowly take more market share, rinse & repeat. Ironically they pull grads away from taking jobs focusing on patients with an actual shortage (medicaid, rural/community care, etc). Pretty zero-sum.

The problem lies when their Wall Street overlords start to turn the screws a bit (believe me they will sooner or later). I have firsthand experience working DoorDash my premed days when they were a startup. When they were expanding, my cut of every delivery would be significantly higher than what is being offered now. More and more people hopped on. Restaurants also caught on, hoping for a piece of increased volume. Now that they're saturated with dashers/restaurants, they've systematically reduced the rates they paid to dashers and increased the cut they took away from restaurants, and theres very little both can do.

Now these same investors are behind some of the biggest names in the post-pandemic mental health boom. Except we're still in the "expansion" phase. I hope you see the parallels, before we transition to the "cash-in" phase.
 
I'm glad I'm not the only one who shares this sentiment. As a recent grad myself I was confused at first with reality vs. hype I was fed throughout residency and med school. I feel like PDs have a different agenda- gotta paint as rosy of a picture as possible to fill those ranks.
It is totally this. Before I severed my teaching with the residency, I had a meeting with the PD. It was when they called an urgent meeting just to tell me to let the trainee do what they please with the patients at this office. I informed the PD the physicians need to know what they are in for. The PD said "I don't want to burst their bubble." I bit my tongue but wanted to say, sounds like the bubble is more for you and your ego than anything else. Then I dropped the bomb on the last sentence of the meeting saying the elective and didactic are gone. Congratulations. Think before you overstep another boundary next time. You may be a PD. But who's waiting after graduation? Employers like me. While you get to sit in your ivory tower feeding the doodoo to the gullible trainees and bask in their attention and oohs and ahhs. Are you gonna pay this trainee's student loans when they're starving for revenue after following your terrible advice?

Quite a few attendings approached me for career feedback and they unanimously said it would be nice to have a realistic picture. Not a rosy incorrect one. They feel like some healthcare version of an Amazon warehouse worker and have no idea how to open more doors. They are exhausted and the payout per unit of work is really not great. How to find another way? My response was: grow your skill set. That's the only way. If you are only able to do what any PCP or NP can do, you are vulnerable. To get more choices, make yourself versatile.
 
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The PE/corporation encroachment is very real. I had a referral source from a local company's healthcare clinic that would send me referrals constantly. Minimum 2-3 a day. Not all would end up making an appointment but it was a steady flow of referrals. At one point, over 50% of my patients were from that one clinic. Then the referrals dried up overnight. Completely stonewalled when I tried contacting the care coordinator. Long story short, found out that they had begun referring most (?all) their psychiatric care to one of these PE owned telemedicine clinics. Inevitably, I get 1-2 patients a month now (way down from 2-3 a day) who find me on their own after having gotten care at the PE owned telemedicine clinic and being left dissatisfied.
 
I'm glad I'm not the only one who shares this sentiment. As a recent grad myself I was confused at first with reality vs. hype I was fed throughout residency and med school. I feel like PDs have a different agenda- gotta paint as rosy of a picture as possible to fill those ranks.

Some of you mentioned that it's easy to find a job. Yes, that is true for now, but the next big change I foresee, bigger than any AI or RFK anti-psych rhetoric, comes from PE/corporations. Since the pandemic there has been an explosion of new startups to get psych appointments. However in direct contrast to their stated theme of expanding access, these startups only expanded access to patients with the means/good insurance. With their flashy Wall street money they seem to be able to attract new grads (albeit overwork them, but hey, you just survived residency, right?) Throw money into patient acquisition, provider acquisition, slowly take more market share, rinse & repeat. Ironically they pull grads away from taking jobs focusing on patients with an actual shortage (medicaid, rural/community care, etc). Pretty zero-sum.

The problem lies when their Wall Street overlords start to turn the screws a bit (believe me they will sooner or later). I have firsthand experience working DoorDash my premed days when they were a startup. When they were expanding, my cut of every delivery would be significantly higher than what is being offered now. More and more people hopped on. Restaurants also caught on, hoping for a piece of increased volume. Now that they're saturated with dashers/restaurants, they've systematically reduced the rates they paid to dashers and increased the cut they took away from restaurants, and theres very little both can do.

Now these same investors are behind some of the biggest names in the post-pandemic mental health boom. Except we're still in the "expansion" phase. I hope you see the parallels, before we transition to the "cash-in" phase.
The thing is, all those psychiatrists can jump ship if conditions are terrible. They're already credentialed to work with various insurers, so transitioning to a different practice is relatively easy. This isn't like EM or anesthesia, where you need substantial investment to form a practice or group, so the barrier to entry is relatively low. While we tend to practice longer than most other specialties, we also tend to cut back with age and the average psychiatrist is 55 years old, amongst the oldest average age of all specialties, which means a lot of people will likely be cutting back worked days or winding down their practices to entirely over the next 10 to 20 years. We may have 2300 residents entering the field each year, but around 2400 psychiatrists are also passing the age of 65 each year.

I'm not that worried yet. Though I am worried about how the field will look in 15 years or so, however I've got child training that should keep my options open for the full duration of my working lifetime
 
I'm glad I'm not the only one who shares this sentiment. As a recent grad myself I was confused at first with reality vs. hype I was fed throughout residency and med school. I feel like PDs have a different agenda- gotta paint as rosy of a picture as possible to fill those ranks.

Some of you mentioned that it's easy to find a job. Yes, that is true for now, but the next big change I foresee, bigger than any AI or RFK anti-psych rhetoric, comes from PE/corporations. Since the pandemic there has been an explosion of new startups to get psych appointments. However in direct contrast to their stated theme of expanding access, these startups only expanded access to patients with the means/good insurance. With their flashy Wall street money they seem to be able to attract new grads (albeit overwork them, but hey, you just survived residency, right?) Throw money into patient acquisition, provider acquisition, slowly take more market share, rinse & repeat. Ironically they pull grads away from taking jobs focusing on patients with an actual shortage (medicaid, rural/community care, etc). Pretty zero-sum.

The problem lies when their Wall Street overlords start to turn the screws a bit (believe me they will sooner or later). I have firsthand experience working DoorDash my premed days when they were a startup. When they were expanding, my cut of every delivery would be significantly higher than what is being offered now. More and more people hopped on. Restaurants also caught on, hoping for a piece of increased volume. Now that they're saturated with dashers/restaurants, they've systematically reduced the rates they paid to dashers and increased the cut they took away from restaurants, and theres very little both can do.

Now these same investors are behind some of the biggest names in the post-pandemic mental health boom. Except we're still in the "expansion" phase. I hope you see the parallels, before we transition to the "cash-in" phase.
I'll 1-up this and say that PE is arguably the biggest threat BECAUSE of AI. PE and corporations who just care about the bottom line are going to start utilizing AI and training NPs how to just follow what the computer program says and pay them a fraction of when any of us are worth.
 
I'm glad I'm not the only one who shares this sentiment. As a recent grad myself I was confused at first with reality vs. hype I was fed throughout residency and med school. I feel like PDs have a different agenda- gotta paint as rosy of a picture as possible to fill those ranks.

Some of you mentioned that it's easy to find a job. Yes, that is true for now, but the next big change I foresee, bigger than any AI or RFK anti-psych rhetoric, comes from PE/corporations. Since the pandemic there has been an explosion of new startups to get psych appointments. However in direct contrast to their stated theme of expanding access, these startups only expanded access to patients with the means/good insurance. With their flashy Wall street money they seem to be able to attract new grads (albeit overwork them, but hey, you just survived residency, right?) Throw money into patient acquisition, provider acquisition, slowly take more market share, rinse & repeat. Ironically they pull grads away from taking jobs focusing on patients with an actual shortage (medicaid, rural/community care, etc). Pretty zero-sum.

The problem lies when their Wall Street overlords start to turn the screws a bit (believe me they will sooner or later). I have firsthand experience working DoorDash my premed days when they were a startup. When they were expanding, my cut of every delivery would be significantly higher than what is being offered now. More and more people hopped on. Restaurants also caught on, hoping for a piece of increased volume. Now that they're saturated with dashers/restaurants, they've systematically reduced the rates they paid to dashers and increased the cut they took away from restaurants, and theres very little both can do.

Now these same investors are behind some of the biggest names in the post-pandemic mental health boom. Except we're still in the "expansion" phase. I hope you see the parallels, before we transition to the "cash-in" phase.
Excellent post. WHEN the economy really starts to turn, its gonna be ugly. All these large pretty corporations which were born and expanded during COVID are gonna tighten the screws hard, and once the cogs can't handle being grinded anymore, they'll bail. And all those patients who finally gained access to treatment for their newly discovered adult-onset ADHD will be left high and dry for their 1st line of treatment. The en****tification of mental health services. What will survive are what has always existed - good private practices and most public systems such as the VA and county/corrections/state hospital type settings.
 
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I'll 1-up this and say that PE is arguably the biggest threat BECAUSE of AI. PE and corporations who just care about the bottom line are going to start utilizing AI and training NPs how to just follow what the computer program says and pay them a fraction of when any of us are worth.
Excellent post. WHEN the economy really starts to turn, its gonna be ugly. All these large pretty corporations which were born and expanded during COVID are gonna tighten the screws hard, and once the cogs can't handle being grinded anymore, they'll bail. And all those patients who finally gained access to treatment for their newly discovered adult-onset ADHD will be left high and dry for their 1st line of treatment. The en****tification of mental health services. What will survive are what has always existed - good private practices most public systems such as the VA and county/corrections/state hospital type settings.
I better up the ante on my social media side hustle. I'm starting to dabble in the youtube territory. Some of it will be professional to promote the practice. I may need to make a separate anonymous account because I have some offensive humor to share. I don't think it is likely but it would be baller if I get enough traffic to earn income on ad impressions.
 
I better up the ante on my social media side hustle. I'm starting to dabble in the youtube territory. Some of it will be professional to promote the practice. I may need to make a separate anonymous account because I have some offensive humor to share. I don't think it is likely but it would be baller if I get enough traffic to earn income on ad impressions.
One of my med school classmates does a bunch of funny social media videos. He was making more money doing that than as a fellow. No idea if that still holds up now that he's an attending.
 
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I better up the ante on my social media side hustle. I'm starting to dabble in the youtube territory. Some of it will be professional to promote the practice. I may need to make a separate anonymous account because I have some offensive humor to share. I don't think it is likely but it would be baller if I get enough traffic to earn income on ad impressions.
One of my med school classmates does a bunch of funny social media videos. He was making more money doing that than as a fellow. No idea if that still holds up now that he's an attending.
Ngl, I've toyed with the idea of making a channel where I watch psychologically oriented movies and react/comment on how realistically or well MH problems and treatments are represented. That's a lot of work though and I don't really feel like having Scientologists and the DID communities coming after me, lol.
 
I better up the ante on my social media side hustle. I'm starting to dabble in the youtube territory. Some of it will be professional to promote the practice. I may need to make a separate anonymous account because I have some offensive humor to share. I don't think it is likely but it would be baller if I get enough traffic to earn income on ad impressions.

Been pushing 50-55 hrs this last year. The sentiment in this thread likely will keep me there till 2030 just in case now.

No nights, wknds ever and mostly from home so cant complain too much. My situation is different as i always had been targeting year 15 as a possible exit or 1-2 day work week for fun. If markets can keep giving 10% till 2030 maybe ill get close to these goals.
 
Ngl, I've toyed with the idea of making a channel where I watch psychologically oriented movies and react/comment on how realistically or well MH problems and treatments are represented. That's a lot of work though and I don't really feel like having Scientologists and the DID communities coming after me, lol.
The peace I find in being vaguely anonymous is something I would never trade for the cash of a YT/TikTok career, can't imagine how annoying any degree of recognition would be
 
The peace I find in being vaguely anonymous is something I would never trade for the cash of a YT/TikTok career, can't imagine how annoying any degree of recognition would be
That's the thing that's kept me from even applying to local TED talks or trying harder to get onto podcasts. Maybe I will change my mind someday, who knows.
 
The peace I find in being vaguely anonymous is something I would never trade for the cash of a YT/TikTok career, can't imagine how annoying any degree of recognition would be

That's the thing that's kept me from even applying to local TED talks or trying harder to get onto podcasts. Maybe I will change my mind someday, who knows.
If ya'll can handle severe personality pathology and drug seeking, ya'll can probably easily handle that. I would love to see some of us hit some fun times and supplemental income that does not create any of us too much headache. Life is short.

Hold on. Did I read this right? A resident tried to steal one of your patients? If so, I would have failed the resident right there.

I sometimes get residents or medical students but there are very few I enjoy working with so I try not to get them. They often slow me down.

I remember in the past one of the posters here, who later revealed to be a very low earner, talk about an academic attending physician giving advice about building private practice. I responded that I would not pay attention to advice from someone who doesn’t have experience building private practices and doesn’t make much from their academic job. There was a response from that poster that not everyone is motivated to make money, which got quite a few likes. Strange. It seems there is an inverse correlation between people who thrives in academic institutions and the ability to make money.

If I was in your shoes, I would no longer teach residents. You’re probably doing this as a way to give back and I doubt you’re paid much to teach, if at all.
The icing on the cake is, there is another PP that has been delivering didactics to that program for decades now. It's a decent (decent in a backhanded way, decent by market standards) practice and the one the grad decided to go to. I mean, yes the perk is that you can network with trainees and some may eventually want to join the practice. I always told trainees, you are hard pressed to find anyone who will look out for your best interest better than yourself. This includes spouses and other family. I also told younger physicians, if it sounds too good to be true and someone is saying it will be a pipe dream, don't be scared to ask specific questions. Employers of course want to promote perks of their place but don't like to volunteer the less attractive features. When that PP basically gave what I call the car salesman pitch to the trainee ("you get to work however you want and be 100% remote, you'll be full, we're all extremely happy here, it's super great, sign on with us")--I said, something is off, ask specific questions. Define full. What is your collection rate. What patient population is there. Per hour of work, what am I actually taking home. But it sounded so good, they just went ahead and signed on although they never gave straight answers to those questions. I think it is easy to trust because there is an affiliation with the academia, so it looks more credible and it's in line with all the hype that was always fed to trainees. The attending that was the main salesman actually privately confides in me about things like the low rates at that PP, difficult patient population, not too stellar patient traffic(gently nudging if I have referrals to send over). yes, you can be 100% remote if you want. But at what cost? It felt odd that they'd complain about job dissatisfaction to me and try to sell it to a trainee (jump into the frying pan with me?). There's indication that they got a commission bonus for each physician they attract into the practice and the attending shared with me their financial woes. Never hurts to keep our eyes wide open. We may not like the reality but this ain't a time to fake it till you make it.
 
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