What portions of a pharmacist's job are impossible to automate?

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But if a job is so repetitive and simple that a machine could do it, it should be.

It might seem repetitive and simple from outsider's view, because the clinical portion of dispensing is done internally by the pharmacist. There are many other things going on in pharmacy other than just checking whether pill picture matches what is in the bottle...

You really have no clue... I recommend you get a job at a retail pharmacy before med school this summer.
 
Because I have to fix all of your wrong F'in orders all day. I will always have a job. For example, what about the order from the neuro resident today for factor Vii at a dose of 90 mcg/kg in a new liver transplant to pull a bolt out even though the INR is 1. What if that patient would have clotted off the hepatic artery in the new liver? Not to mention the 7,000 dollars I saved the hospital. Or what about the other day when they started daptomycin to treat a staph pneumonia? That will work REALLY well.

If you are so great at ordering antibiotics why are our antibiograms all showing resistance patterns and we need stewardship programs staffed by pharmacists to hold your hand?

If we are so worthless why are our transplant nephrologists hiring a pharmacist to work in their clinic??

Who do think makes all of the order sets that you still seem to screw up?

What about when you are at home or at clinic but 6 nurses have medication related questions but they come ask me so you dont have to be paged 6x.

Those robots do nothing but take technician jobs away. You have no clue and I would enjoy pimping you out all day...

You're so angry... Can I have your CV?
 
You're so angry... Can I have your CV?

i for one find it funny how often you ask for CV's.. somebody who didnt know you might think you can't write your own! :meanie:



j/k
nah we all know you're always on top of your game.. whatever game that is..
 
i for one find it funny how often you ask for CV's.. somebody who didnt know you might think you can't write your own! :meanie:



j/k
nah we all know you're always on top of your game.. whatever game that is..

I don't even have a CV...I have a short resume.

But I review a lot of CVs.... and I hire a lot of DOPs, Clinical Managers, and Clinical Pharmacists.

Behind anonymous ID are real people and really talented pharmacists. I'm always looking to add them to our organization.👍
 
There is a practical problem with vending machines, and that is the shear number of medications available. Also, to do it properly, you would have to have standard dispensing amounts.
 
The public would have a hard time conforming to "you vend it, you bought it". I catch people trying to pick up the wrong things all the time...and these are educated people at that...not a slam, but leaving people with nothing but a vending machine between them and their drugs is an ill-fated idea.
 
I don't even have a CV...I have a short resume.

But I review a lot of CVs.... and I hire a lot of DOPs, Clinical Managers, and Clinical Pharmacists.

Behind anonymous ID are real people and really talented pharmacists. I'm always looking to add them to our organization.👍

Jesus Christ...if I ever did want to come work for you, I'd have to send you my CV? Oh Jesus H Christ. I thought that people outside of academia couldn't care less. Mine would be pathetic as hell.

Experience

Staff Pharmacist
- Yelled at techs
- Became irate at hospital protocol and policies that made no sense
- First pharmacist to ever get in trouble for calling a cardiologist a "damned idiot" after asking why I'd want a phos level after a patient with chronic renal failure and a serum calcium of 13 was admitted to the hospital


Professional Organizations

Xbox Live - Appx 20,000 gamerscore points

Publications
The Fort E. coli Picture

Education
- WVU SoP c/o 2007 and/or 2008
- Probably finished in lower 1/3 of class
- Finished nowhere near a GPA level that would grant honors
- Once got in trouble for telling preceptor that their rotation was boring and I couldn't make myself care.
 
Jesus Christ...if I ever did want to come work for you, I'd have to send you my CV? Oh Jesus H Christ. I thought that people outside of academia couldn't care less. Mine would be pathetic as hell.

Experience

Staff Pharmacist
- Yelled at techs
- Became irate at hospital protocol and policies that made no sense
- First pharmacist to ever get in trouble for calling a cardiologist a "damned idiot" after asking why I'd want a phos level after a patient with chronic renal failure and a serum calcium of 13 was admitted to the hospital


Professional Organizations
Xbox Live - Appx 20,000 gamerscore points

Publications
The Fort E. coli Picture

Education
- WVU SoP c/o 2007 and/or 2008
- Probably finished in lower 1/3 of class
- Finished nowhere near a GPA level that would grant honors
- Once got in trouble for telling preceptor that their rotation was boring and I couldn't make myself care.


That's an impressive resume. It will probably end up on the top of the stack! :meanie:
 
Jesus Christ...if I ever did want to come work for you, I'd have to send you my CV? Oh Jesus H Christ. I thought that people outside of academia couldn't care less. Mine would be pathetic as hell.

Experience

Staff Pharmacist
- Yelled at techs
- Became irate at hospital protocol and policies that made no sense
- First pharmacist to ever get in trouble for calling a cardiologist a "damned idiot" after asking why I'd want a phos level after a patient with chronic renal failure and a serum calcium of 13 was admitted to the hospital


Professional Organizations
Xbox Live - Appx 20,000 gamerscore points

Publications
The Fort E. coli Picture

Education
- WVU SoP c/o 2007 and/or 2008
- Probably finished in lower 1/3 of class
- Finished nowhere near a GPA level that would grant honors
- Once got in trouble for telling preceptor that their rotation was boring and I couldn't make myself care.

Hey! He hasn't seen my CV either, so we all know he doesn't have the best workin for this "organization"! 😛 😉
 
You might be able to design an automated system to replace us,and do everything we can, and as simple as you make it, it will be to complicated for most patients to use. Once you deal with the entitled on a daily basis you will see. As Ron White would say you can't fix stupid.

You really have no clue... I recommend you get a job at a retail pharmacy before med school this summer.
I think you would learn a lot, it definately would make you a better doctor. I wish I would have spent some time in a dr's office specificaly an ER.
 
You might be able to design an automated system to replace us,and do everything we can, and as simple as you make it, it will be to complicated for most patients to use. Once you deal with the entitled on a daily basis you will see. As Ron White would say you can't fix stupid.

Well...once upon a time, conventional wisdom said a) pumping your own gas was dangerous if not left to professionals and b) booking air travel needed to be handled by professionals.

Not that I'm equating a pharmacist's job to a travel agent or gas pumper guy, it's just that life/technology moves pretty quickly. Who knows what technology will be utilized in a decade's time. I say "ATM style machines" for certain meds/pt's within 10 years w/ full service pharmacies still here.
 
Come on...quit feeding this dude. He is probably a pre-pharm that didn't get accepted this year and is trying to stir up trouble.

If he really is a medical student, I feel sorry for him. To be that inexperienced and uniformed is scary. Makes you wonder what medical school let him in.

Don't worry GeraldMonroe....If you ever make it far enough to gain some practical experience you will see the value of a pharmacist. Especially when he/she saves your butt a few times.
 
Dang this only illustrates the misconceptions between professions and only fuel the hostilities between professionals. Everyone needs to keep their ego in check and realize that the thing you are arguing about boils down to a human life, one that is trusting all of us to work together to make sure his or her life will not falter unnecessarily. We can sit here and point out why we don't need this-and-this professional or argue about each others' faults until the end of the world, but every aspect of healthcare needed from the surgeons to the person cleaning up the messes of the day.

WE ARE ALL HEALTHCARE PROFESSIONALS. Act like it.

Thank you...I was waiting the enitre thread for someone to make a post like this.

Did anyone ever consider the fact that people think pharmacy can be automated because they genuinely don't understand what the profession has to offer? How about, instead of sitting in your pillboxes and shooting down the OP and anyone who agrees with him, you actually manage to explain what the profession does without insulting others? Yes, the thought of automation replacing 90% of community pharmacists is insulting, but don't you think you should be correcting misconceptions rather than adding fuel to the fire?

To reply to the OP, and to agree with most of the posts already made, automation could never totally replace community pharmacists. Human contact is critical (several examples have already been made) to all healthcare professions. However, I do think that a reasonable level of automation is inevitable (and in some cases already implemented), but the idea is to free up the pharmacist to perform other clinical duties, not to replace the pharmacist.

There are other things, such as "tech-check-tech," which threaten jobs, but again the thought is to free up pharmacists from the insurance companies/pill trays/"How long are you open?" phone calls so they can improve patient care. Medication Therapy Management and Disease State Management are becoming huge right now, and all of these things would actually help pharmacists be able to participate in these clinical functions. Now we just have to find a way to make it profitable on a large scale...

I hope I made my point without irking too many people, but I really think this should have been an opportunity to educate, not to flame. Believe me, if we can't prove why we should be earning ~$100k per year, we won't for long.
 
How about, instead of sitting in your pillboxes and shooting down the OP....

That just gave me a genius idea! A military themed pharmacy called the pill box! You could have an all concrete building designed like a WW-II german pill box at Normandy. Inside everyone is wearing camo with the pharmacist in an urban camo lab coat. Cutomers that get out of line we could have them drop and do push ups. Of course everyone inside would be licensed to carry a conceled weapon. Hopefully that knowledge would keep any complaining customers mouths shut. Instead of bags use old ammo cans....Oh I am all over this.
 
Your post brings this picture to my mind... dunno why; it's not even a pillbox:

9326-bigthumbnail.jpg
 
That just gave me a genius idea! A military themed pharmacy called the pill box! You could have an all concrete building designed like a WW-II german pill box at Normandy. Inside everyone is wearing camo with the pharmacist in an urban camo lab coat. Cutomers that get out of line we could have them drop and do push ups. Of course everyone inside would be licensed to carry a conceled weapon. Hopefully that knowledge would keep any complaining customers mouths shut. Instead of bags use old ammo cans....Oh I am all over this.

I'm pretty sure the military was the first to use tech-check-tech. 😀
 
I've thought about this for a while and I really think that it depends on the circumstances and where your point of view comes from.

On one end, there exists the ideal pharmacy where pharmacists dispense medications after looking over patient profiles. They do counseling, etc. In short they make the fullest use of their knowledge to provide pharmaceutical care to their patients.

Then there is retail hell where you fill 300+ scripts by yourself. You don't have time to read profiles or engage in counseling. It's also fair to argue that your accuracy starts dropping after your first 6-8 hours on the job with no lunch or no break. There is only the barest minimum of knowledge at work here. The main emphasis is on getting as many scripts filled as fast as possible with as little help as possible.

The closer you get to retail hell (focus on dispensing, not thinking) the easier the case for automation becomes. The farther away (focus on thinking, not dispensing) the harder the case becomes.
 
Then there is retail hell where you fill 300+ scripts by yourself. You don't have time to read profiles or engage in counseling. It's also fair to argue that your accuracy starts dropping after your first 6-8 hours on the job with no lunch or no break. There is only the barest minimum of knowledge at work here. The main emphasis is on getting as many scripts filled as fast as possible with as little help as possible.

The closer you get to retail hell (focus on dispensing, not thinking) the easier the case for automation becomes. The farther away (focus on thinking, not dispensing) the harder the case becomes.

Do you or did you work for CVS or Walgreens? Very accurate description...very accurate.
 
Thank you...I was waiting the enitre thread for someone to make a post like this.

Did anyone ever consider the fact that people think pharmacy can be automated because they genuinely don't understand what the profession has to offer? How about, instead of sitting in your pillboxes and shooting down the OP and anyone who agrees with him, you actually manage to explain what the profession does without insulting others? Yes, the thought of automation replacing 90% of community pharmacists is insulting, but don't you think you should be correcting misconceptions rather than adding fuel to the fire?

To reply to the OP, and to agree with most of the posts already made, automation could never totally replace community pharmacists. Human contact is critical (several examples have already been made) to all healthcare professions. However, I do think that a reasonable level of automation is inevitable (and in some cases already implemented), but the idea is to free up the pharmacist to perform other clinical duties, not to replace the pharmacist.

There are other things, such as "tech-check-tech," which threaten jobs, but again the thought is to free up pharmacists from the insurance companies/pill trays/"How long are you open?" phone calls so they can improve patient care. Medication Therapy Management and Disease State Management are becoming huge right now, and all of these things would actually help pharmacists be able to participate in these clinical functions. Now we just have to find a way to make it profitable on a large scale...

I hope I made my point without irking too many people, but I really think this should have been an opportunity to educate, not to flame. Believe me, if we can't prove why we should be earning ~$100k per year, we won't for long.

First I apologize for the lengthy post, but I felt there were a few key points that I could offer my opinions on, in hopes of offering clarity.

To tack onto what dumediat said, the traditional role of lick-n-stick could probably be replaced. Some of the duties have already been taken, by machines and techs alike. As mentioned in this thread, pharmacy is moving towards offering more services to the patient, such as Medication Therapy Management. Clinics are also possible with pharmacists that can help manage your conditions. It's not to say that they will be doing what doctors do, but definitely they are moving away from simply filling and dispensing prescriptions.

History already reflects this, as the 1952 APhA Code of Ethics stated "The pharmacist does not discuss the therapeutic effects or composition with a patient. When such questions are asked he suggests that the qualified practitioner is the proper person..." Fast forward to the 1969 APhA Code of Ethics, and it reads "A pharmacist should ... render to each patient the full measure of his ability as an essential health practitioner." Additionally, Melvin R. Gibson wrote in 1970 "The pharmacist is the only expert on drugs..." So to answer your question, traditional lick-n-stick could probably be replaced with automated machines, but pharmacists themselves most likely will not be because of the many other services that they offer.

And one key reason for the $100k payroll is the fact that no pharmacy can legally run without a pharmacist present. Before I get flamed, it is not the only reason but it is definitely a component. Currently there is a pharmacist shortage overall, but give it time and with a surplus of pharmacists you cannot expect to be banking the same type of money. Additionally, computer systems are getting so much more sophisticated that many key responsibilities of pharmacists are made easier. For example, it is nigh impossible for a pharmacist to remember every possible interaction that could happen between two drugs, but the computer system can keep massive tables of all that. Retail pharmacies minimize human error by having the system as a check, but extend it to its natural evolution and you could in theory have a well-trained tech manage even more responsibilities of the pharmacist in conjunction with the computer system. Thus further diminishing the role of the pharmacist. I'm sure if you could find a way to do this, retail chains would pay you through the nose because of how much in salaries it would save them.

Of course, pharmacy as a whole will not remain simply lick-n-stick. As mentioned in this thread, one easily overlooked service pharmacists offer is counseling. Possibly because they do not charge, but they are working on ways to be re-reimbursed for that as well. Other services are immunizations, diabetes clinics, lipid clinics, weight loss management, smoking cessation clinics, pain management, Alzheimer's clinics, specialty compounding, education and representation, etc. They are also looking into pharmacist prescribing, but that's another discussion on its own.

In short, yes many responsibilities of the pharmacist could be automated and "replaced" but I doubt that the pharmacist himself/herself will be replaced due to the wide variety of other services offered. Pharmacists will have to (and are) shifting away from a goods-oriented profession into a more service-oriented one.

EDIT: and the way I look at it, the more insurance hassles there are, the more reason for pharmacists to have a job... *joke*
 
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I also think the retail side of pharmacy is a dying breed.

Retail is propped up by aging baby boomers and increased meds use per patient. This will probably continue for the next 20 years, but as we look back, the productivity of pharmacist (number of scripts you can fill per day) is increasing due to increased computerization/automation/techs.

What happens when the baby boomers die off? What will happen when number of pharmacists number/productivity exceeds demand? Look at hospital central pharmacy, where I work just installed 2 new robots.

IMHO, 20-30 years down the road, 1 retail RPh will be able to fill 600-700 maybe even 1000 scripts a day. Those excess RPh has better find something else to justify their existence. Pharm.D's needs to be the medication experts that we really are, be working the medication dosing and treatment rather then the dispensing work.
 
Those excess RPh has better find something else to justify their existence. Pharm.D's needs to be the medication experts that we really are, be working the medication dosing and treatment rather then the dispensing work.

Tap-dancing justifies my existence, although I don't know if it's a profitable venture yet. 🙂
 
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Tap-dancing justifies my existence, although I don't know if it's a profitable venture yet. 🙂

But that's what clinical pharmacist do these days already. And it's profitable, why? Why pay a physician $300K a year for med dose adjustments and treatment changes within P&T? A Pharm.D can do that for $200K less and do as good, if not a better job. Can you go cheaper and make nurse do it? No, they don't know enough. So there, it makes good financial sense. 🙂
 
I want to point out that in the 70s, 80s and maybe even the 90s people going through medical school had a much easier time learning pharmacology and how to properly use drugs. During this time period we had many new drugs come out. Today I find that physicians are not as knowledgable as they used to be about all of the drugs even if they are in their specialty. This due to the vast amount of things to memorize and the complexity of drugs that different patients are on. Thats why many physician groups are now willing to hire pharmacists to concentrate on drugs and make sure everything is going as planned. I will be employed by a group of MDs, NOT the pharmacy department. If they thought I was worthless I doubt they would be paying me a retail salary.
 
I want to point out that in the 70s, 80s and maybe even the 90s people going through medical school had a much easier time learning pharmacology and how to properly use drugs. If they thought I was worthless I doubt they would be paying me a retail salary.

Correct. My medical school doesn't even have a dedicated pharm course (it's lumped in with other classes). However, lickers and stickers have got to be a dying breed.
 
Correct. My medical school doesn't even have a dedicated pharm course (it's lumped in with other classes). However, lickers and stickers have got to be a dying breed.


They have been for a long time...
 
Responses :

"
"Hackers would break the system" :
ATM machines already handle millions of dollars in cash, which has at least as much theft potential as scheduled drugs, right? Some of these $100,000+ vending machines could be secure enough to dispense a scheduled med, although a patient would probably have to submit to an iris scan or a fingerprint scan.

As an engineer, I feel like I could build a machine so secure that mistakes almost never happened. An iris, fingerprint, or RFID scanner would verify a patient's identity (a patient would go to a human run facility and present ID in order to be scanned into the system).

LOL. Do you have any idea what percentage of prescriptions are picked up by someone OTHER than the person to whom they're prescribed??? You're thinking about efficiency and forgetting entirely about the PATIENT. Sad that you're entering our healthcare system. Ever consider another profession?
 
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Addressing the original question: What portions of a pharmacist's job are impossible to automate?

1) Advice - A machine can't ask all the right questions with regard to drug or OTC recommendations.
2) Reasoning - Self-explanatory.
3) Inquisition - A machine can't interact with a patient to evaluate a drug's appropriateness.
4) Assessment - Can you imagine what would happen if every DUR that popped up saying that there was an "interaction" led to a prescription not being filled?? Most of those warnings are trivial, but a machine can't assess the patient and make an educated decision about their specific situation.
5) Catching mistakes - You're assuming that being "electronic" makes prescriptions less prone to error, but in my experience it's the exact opposite. It's a lot easier for a physician to make an order entry mistake when they're choosing from drop-down boxes for drug name, qty and sig. If they do mess up, there's nobody there to say "hey, wait a minute..."

Machines would be great if every physician had perfect drug knowledge, knew every med that the patient was getting from their other 5 doctors, had the time to answer endless OTC questions, never made a mistake prescribing, and each had a phone center to handle all the angry phone calls from patients when their prescription was filled "as written" for the wrong drug.

Need me to go on??

Someday when a pharmacist saves your ***** from a liability lawsuit, you may view this differently.
 
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Addressing the original question: What portions of a pharmacist's job are impossible to automate?

1) Advice - A machine can't ask all the right questions with regard to drug or OTC recommendations.
2) Reasoning - Self-explanatory.
3) Inquisition - A machine can't interact with a patient to evaluate a drug's appropriateness.
4) Assessment - Can you imagine what would happen if every DUR that popped up saying that there was an "interaction" led to a prescription not being filled?? Most of those warnings are trivial, but a machine can't assess the patient and make an educated decision about their specific situation.
5) Catching mistakes - You're assuming that being "electronic" makes prescriptions less prone to error, but in my experience it's the exact opposite. It's a lot easier for a physician to make an order entry mistake when they're choosing from drop-down boxes for drug name, qty and sig. If they do mess up, there's nobody there to say "hey, wait a minute..."

Machines would be great if every physician had perfect drug knowledge, knew every med that the patient was getting from their other 5 doctors, had the time to answer endless OTC questions, never made a mistake prescribing, and each had a phone center to handle all the angry phone calls from patients when their prescription was filled "as written" for the wrong drug.

Need me to go on??

Someday when a pharmacist saves your ***** from a liability lawsuit, you may view this differently.

Caught a "500 mcg injectable Synthroid the other day". 150 mg po was in the RX notes.
 
how bout monday morning I come in and a liver transplant patient 2 days post op who weighs 100lbs is on toradol 30mg q6 and prograf not to mention 100 mg of prednisone a day....I will let you look that one up taurus..just page me when you fix it.
 
Oh gerald you can answer too...but since you are an all knowing MS1 why dont you do it with out google and then ask your colleagues why they chose that combo
 
Oh gerald you can answer too...but since you are an all knowing MS1 why dont you do it with out google and then ask your colleagues why they chose that combo

He has come to the conclusion he doesn't need a pharmacist...he has ePocrates...didn't ya know?

Then when he goes before the board he's gonna say,
But my PDA said...
 
or we could let your robot do it...maybe it can replace your brain
 
I'm watching out for the raptors that will surely come get us all.
 
i think the OP brought up a pretty valid point to the table. It's unfortunate a lot of us had to get childish on him instead of just addressing his points - something i haven't seen anyone do convincingly.

It seems obvious that retail pharmacists will be automated in the future, im just not sure whether it will be in my own life time or not. It's actually scary and I understand why some of you have reacted emotionally to this topic. Nobody wants to actually face the reality that their livelyhood can be crushed so inhumanly.

Technology advances quickly and it may be the case that in 40 or so yrs many retail pharmacists will be out of a job and have to upgrade to pharmD/phd. In a hundred or so yrs we may even see surgeons replaced my machines but I think pharmacists will be replaced before that.

If we look at history we will see that humans are continually replaced by machines. If there is a job, it's only because we havent filled it in with a machine OR outsourced it to India. Speaking of outsourcing, Ive been hearing a lot about how even the law profession is beginning to get outsourced. It's not just pharmacy that's at risk really, it's virtually any profession from car assembly line workers to garbage men and GP's. I think we can be honest about this and admit there is some truth to some of it, instead of calling the OP an idiot or accusing him of deliberately trying to provoke us.
 
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......instead of calling the OP an idiot or accusing him of deliberately trying to provoke us.

You go pre-pharmer...tell us how it is!!!

The OP may not be an idiot but the thread he started is idiotic. What other motivation could he have other than deliberatly trying to provoke a fight?

But hey, you are pre-pharmacy so please keep enlightening us with your vast stores of knowledge.
 
In a hundred or so yrs we may even see surgeons replaced my machines but I think pharmacists will be replaced before that.

In a hundred years, robots will be better than humans at everything, according to moore's law and other estimates.

On that note though, has anyone seen the new tech for surgeons where operations are performed by controlling a robot? The surgeon technically doesn't even have to be there, he just needs to be at a terminal that controls the robotic appendages. http://science.howstuffworks.com/robotic-surgery1.htm

Kinda makes me want to be a surgeon...I've always been good with a joystick. :meanie:
 
In a hundred years, robots will be better than humans at everything, according to moore's law and other estimates.

On that note though, has anyone seen the new tech for surgeons where operations are performed by controlling a robot? The surgeon technically doesn't even have to be there, he just needs to be at a terminal that controls the robotic appendages. http://science.howstuffworks.com/robotic-surgery1.htm

Kinda makes me want to be a surgeon...I've always been good with a joystick. :meanie:
As long as you don't start making "pew pew" noises as you perform the surgery, I think we will be okay.
 
I think the "pew pew" noises would be OK...it's the "HEADSHOT!" that might throw some people off.
 
I tell yah what, if I get the patient out alive and complication-free I'll pew pew all I want.
 
You know... if there were no pharmacists around and all patients had to rely on were machines to dispense their medication... who will answer their questions regarding what flavors do the suppositories come in?
 
I think he's referring to making prescriptions digital. One day... there will be a machine that will take body temperature, take fluid samples, analyze symptoms and lab results, and consider all possible ailments and provide a solution. Oh, and there will probably be a machine that can cut with precision into a person's body to remove all the nasties too. I guess by then we'll all be out of a job and we'll sit around a campfire discussing the good ol' days when we criticized each others' professions. : /

That day is already here.
The machine you listed has been working in South Korea for years.
 
That day is already here.
The machine you listed has been working in South Korea for years.

Unfair comparison. The rest of the world is already light years ahead of the dinosaur of a country we are.

I mean...we think the top speed of 150mph for rail is fast. What a joke.
 
Unfair comparison. The rest of the world is already light years ahead of the dinosaur of a country we are.

I mean...we think the top speed of 150mph for rail is fast. What a joke.
Yah, seriously... it's not like there's a train that's faster than a speeding bullet or anything...
 
Yeah, **** this ****...I'm gonna go back to school for mortuary science...let's see them outsource that ****.
 
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