What prevents people from making up ECs?

[axp107]

There are people who actually work hard while doing ECs and there are those who don't. On top of what, isn't it really easy to just make up ECs on your application? Seems kinda unfair... I've heard of this happening

Do the Adcoms check in any way? Sure, they'll ask you about them in the interviews.. but you could always bs.

So, because of this loophole, is participation in clubs and ECs not really that important in the application process?

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[Psyche Estrelle]

I've always wondered this too. If I made up an EC, my interviewers would probably pick it up immediately because I'm a sucky liar, but I know there are people out there who aren't.

On the AMCAS they ask for a supervisor/leader name and title, but if I remember correctly they don't ask for a reference phone number or anything.


Edit: What I've noticed is that during my interviews, when I get questions such as "So what in your extracurricular experiences have impressed you about medicine," I use true stories from my EC's to back up the answer I give. They're stories I couldn't have made up on the spot, as a person who lied about their EC's might have to do. So I don't know. I would think liars are easily transparent during the interview, but I could be wrong. Not to mention, there's like 3 disclaimers on the apps reminding you that serious action will be taken if you falsify anything... I find them scary enough :>

 

[braluk]

Its up to the interviewers to judge your character. If a particular experience seems almost too outlandish, I'm sure the interviewee would be grilled on very specific details one cannot garner on the spot. If an applicant's character is brought into question, I wouldn't be surprised if a full background check on an application is done. There have been stories floating around on SDN where med students have been kicked out because of lying on an application.

 

[braluk]

Also...hopefully your letter writers should be able to clue in the reader about some of those activities that were important enough to make it into your AMCAS application. Many letter writers know the student well enough to speak on their behalf about their student's dedication to such activities.

 

[Dr_Berk]

Dammit...my application could have been so much better.

 

[Dr_Berk]

Also...hopefully your letter writers should be able to clue in the reader about some of those activities that were important enough to make it into your AMCAS application. Many letter writers know the student well enough to speak on their behalf about their student's dedication to such activities.

👍 👍
Also...if you have a serious activity, I think it would be expected that you provide a letter from the supervisor. However, it's not req'd. So...red flag?😕

 

[bigDee]

Nothing stops them. They could just put down that they did something and make up stories about it for the interview. They could pull anything out of their butt when asked about it unless they are asked something very very specific. And even then, they can go ahead and make that up since no one will do any checks unless its something way out there.

 

[axp107]

In general what kinds of questions do they ask about ECs? Open ended questions?

 

[braluk]

well i mean alot of the times they will pair an interviewer with a given EC. For example if you put down ROTC, they might find a military doctor; if you put down spanish, (and Ive had a friend that had this happen to him- but he was truthful so it didnt phase him), they may bring in a spanish interviewer to ask you to answer a few questions in spanish. If you list that you are published as a coauthor, they might grill you on the details of that very publication and the subject of that publication by perhaps an interviewer who is an expert in that area. That is not to say, that people have probably lied in the past and gotten away with it, but such things, I would hope, have been minimal enough not make much of a difference in their application, in a make or break type of situation.

 

[8744]

What prevents people from making up ECs?

Nothing. Absolutely nothing.


Sincerely,

P. Bear, MD
Winner, 1998 Nobel Prize for Chemistry
Assitant Director for African Famine Relief, NIH 1997-2001

 

[LIRRfriend]

Yeah nothing can stop you from making something up on AMCAS, but there isn't a whole lot of space to elaborate on AMCAS. That's what the interview is for. I'm sure that people who can provide vivid and detailed descriptions and examples from the activities that they were involved in end up looking a lot better than the people who made things up (although some people are very good liars, and there is not a whole lot that can be done to stop this).

The kinds of questions you can get vary. I've had some very open ended questions and some specific questions. Many people asked me to simply describe my experiences with a certain activity, and I usually give a very detailed answer and include specific anecdotes to make sure that they understand that my real experiences are real and meaningful.

Finally, interviewers can be paired with applicants based on expertise. I had one interview in which I was able to have a pretty meaningful conversation about my current research, and he was actually able to give some suggestions about a new procedure I was in the process of learning. On the other hand, the interviewer doesn't have to be an expert to be able to grill you in all cases or for you to prove that you were dedicated to whatever you do. I guess the best advice is to make your best effort to put yourself across as a great candidate because there will be others who slip through the cracks.

 

[Darksmurf]

well i mean alot of the times they will pair an interviewer with a given EC. For example if you put down ROTC, they might find a military doctor; if you put down spanish, (and Ive had a friend that had this happen to him- but he was truthful so it didnt phase him), they may bring in a spanish interviewer to ask you to answer a few questions in spanish. If you list that you are published as a coauthor, they might grill you on the details of that very publication and the subject of that publication by perhaps an interviewer who is an expert in that area. That is not to say, that people have probably lied in the past and gotten away with it, but such things, I would hope, have been minimal enough not make much of a difference in their application, in a make or break type of situation.

In my experience, this isn't true. Some schools indeed may do this, but I imagine that often times, if there is similarity or common interests, it is coincidence. Of the 12 interviews I've been to, I was not matched up with someone of a similiar background for a single one of them. In fact, I was disappointed that I never got someone with common interests or background because it would be much easier to 'click' with them. I've spent years in China and I speak damn good Chinese and I crossed my fingers every interview that I would get a Chinese-speaking interviewer...but nothing. At some places where I interviewed, my interviewer seemed to only have a vague, general idea of where China even is on the map.

If you think about it, though, you could argue that it is in the school's better interest to not match people with common interests up because that would be an immediate positive bias. Ostensibly, you want the interveiwer to be an unbiased judge, no?

 

[MadHopsMD]

I am not sure if this was coincidence or not...but I got matched up with a person who was from a small town in my native country. I mean the chances of that are like impossible, given how small it is and far it is from North America. Also, this was the first person in NA i ever saw who was from that place. Haha, unfortunately we were not related...but I got accepted there nonetheless 👍

Also at my UVM interview...the person who interviewed me had extensive knowledge of this particular foreign activity that i participated at...again another acceptance...

in this random process who interviews you matters SO much...because places where interviewees and I share very little common interests, are the same places where I have gotten waitlists 😡

 

[MadHopsMD]

What prevents people from making up ECs?

Nothing. Absolutely nothing.


Sincerely,

P. Bear, MD
Winner, 1998 Nobel Prize for Chemistry
Assitant Director for African Famine Relief, NIH 1997-2001

true that

sonyvaio2700, PhD, DDS, MD, LL.B
President of Canada, 2000-current
Member of X-men

 

[Stolenspatulas]

It'll catch up to them. I've heard of students going into their 4th year of medical school losing admission because of a fake EC (and thus losing their would-be MD status).

Im not going to say dont do it. Do it at your own risk. The reward is not even close to the risk in my mind. But hey, people still do it so others think differently.
This doesnt have to be an ethics question... its more simple, risk v. reward.

Its like cheating in college... u pretty much **** up your chances for admission into gradschool (of any sort) or your hopes for a highpaying job right out of college for a grade thats part of a total grade of one out of many courses you take. risk v. reward. people are nuts.

 

[8744]

It'll catch up to them. I've heard of students going into their 4th year of medical school losing admission because of a fake EC (and thus losing their would-be MD status).

Im not going to say dont do it. Do it at your own risk. The reward is not even close to the risk in my mind. But hey, people still do it so others think differently.
This doesnt have to be an ethics question... its more simple, risk v. reward.

Its like cheating in college... u pretty much **** up your chances for admission into gradschool (of any sort) or your hopes for a highpaying job right out of college for a grade thats part of a total grade of one out of many courses you take. risk v. reward. people are nuts.

I highly doubt it, unless their medical school was processing them for dismissal for something else and went back in their file to look for "icing on the cake."

Imagine the lawsuit that would result if your school said, "Mr. Smith, we are expelling you today, three months before you graduate and after having collected $200,000 from you because we checked and you did not, in fact, give out free needles to transvestites in Seattle.

I don't think too many people outright lie, rather they embellish the bejesus out of their activities. I have had the chance to review applications to our program and I often wonder how a lot of the people applying had time to crap and eat much less pass medical school.

 

[8744]

true that

sonyvaio2700, PhD, DDS, MD, LL.B
President of Canada, 2000-current
Member of X-men

There is no way you were the President of Canada.

 

[LifetimeDoc]

I was Time Magizine's Person of the Year. And I didn't make that up! 😛 😀

 

[MadHopsMD]

There is no way you were the President of Canada.

haha you caught me. we have prime ministers. lol.

 

[kevster2001]

my premed advisor told me of someone that got accepted to Duke but the adcomm followed up on one of their supposed ECs and he/she (can't remember) couldn't provide evidence of the activity. He/she ended up withdrawing before Duke could pull the plug themselves

 

[45408]

Fear of having your MD revoked after you spent $150,000 on med school, all because you lied and said you shadowed a doctor that you hadn't.

I don't think too many people outright lie, rather they embellish the bejesus out of their activities.

Precisely. "Oh, I'll just say that I did this for 10 hours a week instead of 6, and that I *really* enjoyed wiping butts for minimum wage."

 

[pyrois]

isn't it really easy to just make up ECs on your application? QUOTE]

Well, most schools want a rec letter from a person related to each activity/program you participated in that is major/important.

So I suppose you could probably get by sneaking in "i volunteered 1 hour a week at the local elementary school" but if you "led the Jews to the promised land" I think they'd be looking for something from Moses in your rec letter pile.

I think the whole "making up EC's" happens far less often than you might think. I don't think I know of anybody who would do that, or would dare do that.

 

[MacGyver]

I promise you straight up that med schools do NOT check ECs. They barely read the applications, they dont have the time or resources to check on ECs.

Think about it. Do you think the surgeon you are interviewing with is going to say to his patient "no I cant operate today because I have to check out some shady EC stuff with an applicant" Do you think the internist is going to say "well i'm going to miss an hour of clinic because i have to do some background checking". Of course not.

The docs you interview with are WAY too busy to check that crap. For that matter, the admissions staff is overwhelmed too and wont have the time to check it out.

 

[DoctorMom78]

If you are planning on becoming a doctor, I would hope that your own conscience and morals would prevent you from making something up. If that is not the case, you certainly run the risk of being found out and losing any chance of ever becoming a doctor. Even if you "got away with it", I am sure it will catch up with you someday. I believe in Karma and I think it will get you in the end. 😉 Best policy, be honest. 😀

 

[Darksmurf]

I promise you straight up that med schools do NOT check ECs. They barely read the applications, they dont have the time or resources to check on ECs.

Are you 'promising straight up' based on your infallible gut feelings and superior skills of deduction or do you have insider information?

 

[notdeadyet]

Do the Adcoms check in any way? Sure, they'll ask you about them in the interviews.. but you could always bs.

Once you've been interviewing for a while, you get a pretty good bs detector. Unless you're pathological (and I know you're out there), you have a good chance of getting found out if your interviewer digs to deep.

So, because of this loophole, is participation in clubs and ECs not really that important in the application process?

I think because of this "loophole", participation in unverifiable ECs like campus clubs might be weighed less. Working at an actual program at an actual hospital will probably carry more weight because all it takes is a phone call and there is a higher risk of someone actually having familiarity.

There are few careers where honesty and trust are as important as in medicine. If you are caught lying in any way on our application/interview, no medical school will have you. It's just not worth the risk.

 

[notgettingin]

What prevents people from making up ECs?

Nothing. Absolutely nothing.


Sincerely,

P. Bear, MD
Winner, 1998 Nobel Prize for Chemistry
Assitant Director for African Famine Relief, NIH 1997-2001

hee hee 😀

 

[Haemulon]

Bottom line: it is just not that important. Obsessing over EC's is something done by pre-meds in order to make themselves stand out over other applicants or to try and make up for some application deficiency. Other than being used as a screening tool and way to gain some insight into a applicants background and motiveation/dedication, the adcoms really don't care. And certainly no one else does. I can imagine how mind-numbing it must be to goo thorugh thousands and thousands of applications, most of which all say pretty much the same thing, year after year after year. I think we would be attributing to ourselves way too much importance by thinking that in general schools would really seek out and destroy applicants that claimed to, for instance, to help the local charity for disabled children when in fact they just dropped some change in the bucket at a McDonalds fundraiser. Of course if somehow they know you are lying, your app will be killed. But there is just no reason for them to go back and check into anything, especially several years later, unless there is some other pressing reason to do so.

Put down your true EC's because it is the honorable thing to do. Be proud of what you have actually accomplished and let the chips fall where they may, good or bad. Thats what having integrity is all about, and integrity is something that med schools are looking for in their applicants. After all, why would you want to feel like a fake? Knowing that perhaps only your lies got you accepted and not what you actually have achieved?

 

[braluk]

I might as well hop on board with a signature

braluk, MD, PhD, MS, MPH, MBA, JD, BS, BA
Founder, Justice League
CEO, Illuminati

 

[Nikki2002]

There is no way you were the President of Canada.

lmfao

 

[Funky]

What prevents people from making up ECs?

Nothing. Absolutely nothing.


Sincerely,

P. Bear, MD
Winner, 1998 Nobel Prize for Chemistry
Assitant Director for African Famine Relief, NIH 1997-2001

 

[45408]

I would like to point out that people HAVE been called out before. Someone claimed he could play the piano and was brought to the basement of the school, put in front of a piano and told to play. He couldn't play. (UWisc has a grand piano in the lobby.) If you claim to speak a language, your interviewer just may be a native speaker of that language. That's been done many times. LizzyM has said that she has looked at dates/timelines for things people have claimed to have done and found discrepancies (maybe errors, maybe lies).

We all embellish on how meaningful a volunteer experience was, but that's subjective anyways. Be careful about going any further than that.

 

[etf]

it's just not worth it, at least to me.

sincerely,

Saint etf

(beat that)

 

[Davjc2009]

Prov. 6:12 - "a worthless person, a wicked man, is the one who walks with a false mouth"

-Jesus
(Beat That...Oh wait you can't )

 

[Psyche Estrelle]

If you start a lie, especially one so big as to make up your EC's, you have to keep on making lies to keep it going. If you make up all your EC's, you might have to have to go so far as to falsify letters of rec, etc. AND if you are interviewing and pulling life-changing experiences out of your ass... who is good at coming up with stuff like that on the spot... let alone sounding convincing? It's always tempting to cheat because it seems like it'll be easier, but if you think about all that follows, it just seems harder. At least in my opinion. I definitely could never do it :b

Like someone else said, embellishing EC's a lil bit is way easier and carries WAY less risk and way less guilt. lol. At least you actually DID the stuff and you have real things to talk about!

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

Dr. Vegas33 AuD, DC, DCM, DDS, DMD, JD, MD,ND, OD, DO, PharmD, DP, PodD, DPM, MDiv, MHL, DVM PhD, EdD, DEng, EngD, DBA, DD, JCD, SSD, JUD, DSc, DLitt, DA, DMH, DMA, DMus, DCL, ThD, DrPH, DPT, DPhil, PsyD, DSW, LLD, LHD, JSD, SJD, JuDr

Ill have to use the backside of my business card to finish

 

[8744]

If you start a lie, especially one so big as to make up your EC's, you have to keep on making lies to keep it going. If you make up all your EC's, you might have to have to go so far as to falsify letters of rec, etc. AND if you are interviewing and pulling life-changing experiences out of your ass... who is good at coming up with stuff like that on the spot... let alone sounding convincing? It's always tempting to cheat because it seems like it'll be easier, but if you think about all that follows, it just seems harder. At least in my opinion. I definitely could never do it :b

Like someone else said, embellishing EC's a lil bit is way easier and carries WAY less risk and way less guilt. lol. At least you actually DID the stuff and you have real things to talk about!

Yeah, but if anybody could pull off this kind of organizational task, keeping the lies in order that is, it would be a medical student. I mean, the application process itself is nothing to sneeze at. It would be child's play, comparatively, to organize a battalion of lies.

 

[MinnyGophers]

Yeah, but if anybody could pull off this kind of organizational task, keeping the lies in order that is, it would be a medical student. I mean, the application process itself is nothing to sneeze at. It would be child's play, comparatively, to organize a battalion of lies.

Are you serious?
Frankly, if someone would go as far as to fabricate an EC, make up a letter or rec for it, and be able to sound, without the slightest hint of stress/fear, entirely genuine when talking about it during an interview, they should not go to med school, they should work for the CIA.

 

[gujuDoc]

I would like to point out that people HAVE been called out before. Someone claimed he could play the piano and was brought to the basement of the school, put in front of a piano and told to play. He couldn't play. (UWisc has a grand piano in the lobby.) If you claim to speak a language, your interviewer just may be a native speaker of that language. That's been done many times. LizzyM has said that she has looked at dates/timelines for things people have claimed to have done and found discrepancies (maybe errors, maybe lies).

We all embellish on how meaningful a volunteer experience was, but that's subjective anyways. Be careful about going any further than that.

I'd like to add to this as well.....

About a year or two ago, a friend told me this story about someone who took place at USF.

There was a guy who came out to a premed meeting to speak and was boasting about how he lied about a chem award and was accepted. Later on someone at the meeting emailed the dean ratting him out and he got his acceptance revoked and black listed from other schools.

A few other things I'd like to note....

In years past a lot of my friends have been paired with interviewers that have had similar backgrounds as them based on what was written in their applications so it is possible that some schools do purposely put you with people with similar backgrounds as you. The reason for that is two fold. Firstly, it allows them to see if you are being honest or lying. Secondly, it makes it a bit more comfortable for you to find common ground with your interviewer.

I've also heard several stories including one from a personal friend of mine where they've put down they could speak another language and have been tested to see if that was true by being assigned to an interviewer who could speak that language and spoke it with them briefly to see if they were being honest.

so don't take these things lightly. As someone already stated. A. Its not worth the risk. B. Show the honesty and integrity that is expected in medicine. And C. have common sense in what should and should not be done.

Also as someone else already stated, embellishing a bit is ok bc its subjective but flat out lying is just not worth it and not ethically right anyways.

 

[Karina 07]

This is off-topic, but it's a funny story.

So I'm a white girl who can speak chinese, and I was interviewing for a job once in which the person doing the interviewing, a white man, said "Oh, you can speak Mandarin Chinese? So can I!", clearly finding it unusual. Well, I suggested we could switch to speaking in Mandarin. That was a bad, BAD idea!!!!!! Turns out, the ***interviewer*** was lying about being able to speak the language. Not sure if it had anything to do with that awkwardness 😛, but I didn't get the job....

 

[8744]

Are you serious?
Frankly, if someone would go as far as to fabricate an EC, make up a letter or rec for it, and be able to sound, without the slightest hint of stress/fear, entirely genuine when talking about it during an interview, they should not go to med school, they should work for the CIA.

Well. let's say I hated volunteering but had the discipline to fabricate a totally believable yet ambiguous cover-story about my activities. Maybe I'd even add enough truth to the cover story where it would be believable.

Suppose, for instance, I sent out a hundred requests for letters of recommendation to people in the charitable community. Who's to say that one or two wouldn't give it to their secretary and have her grind out the usual letter for their signature? Would your school check beyond that? What if I marked orgnaizations that were loosley run or kept poor records...or even better an organization that had closed down.

As some of you know I have aspirations to be a writer and I definitely have this idea on my short list of possible plots.

I also want to hastily add that I had a very short AMCAS application because I am scrupulously honest...but I also think the medical school application process is somewhat idiotic and tends to select for self-aggrandizing dinguses.

 

[MinnyGophers]

Well. let's say I hated volunteering but had the discipline to fabricate a totally believable yet ambiguous cover-story about my activities. Maybe I'd even add enough truth to the cover story where it would be believable.

Suppose, for instance, I sent out a hundred requests for letters of recommendation to people in the charitable community. Who's to say that one or two wouldn't give it to their secretary and have her grind out the usual letter for their signature? Would your school check beyond that? What if I marked orgnaizations that were loosley run or kept poor records...or even better an organization that had closed down.

As some of you know I have aspirations to be a writer and I definitely have this idea on my short list of possible plots.

I also want to hastily add that I had a very short AMCAS application because I am scrupulously honest...but I also think the medical school application process is somewhat idiotic and tends to select for self-aggrandizing dinguses.

Good points, however, thankfully, it would be difficult to make up anything more than a small or not that significant EC, which is not going to be much of a dealbreaker for most people.

 

[Dr. Pepper]

There is no way you were the President of Canada.

During a debate round where the topic concerned the Canadian health care system, my opponent talked endlessly about the mythical "president of Canada" who made it his "life work to promote the health of Canadians."

I responded by saying:
"Before I start my rebuttal, I'd like to point out that there is no Canadian president and there never was. Canada has a parliamentary system of government."

I later found out that our judge was born....in Canada.

Learn about Canada, folks. The topic is bound to come up at least once in your lifetime, and once it does, it can make you appear like a cosmopolitan or an uninformed ***hole.

As for this thread, the only check on making up ECs is the impending fear that the adcoms will discover somehow or someway that you made it up and will stop you from ever, ever becoming a doctor.

Honestly, it's not worth it.
-Dr. P.

 

[NonTradMed]

I would like to point out that people HAVE been called out before. Someone claimed he could play the piano and was brought to the basement of the school, put in front of a piano and told to play. He couldn't play. (UWisc has a grand piano in the lobby.) If you claim to speak a language, your interviewer just may be a native speaker of that language. That's been done many times. LizzyM has said that she has looked at dates/timelines for things people have claimed to have done and found discrepancies (maybe errors, maybe lies).

We all embellish on how meaningful a volunteer experience was, but that's subjective anyways. Be careful about going any further than that.

True dat. It's one thing to put in a few extra hours of volunteering, another to say you speak fluent Swahili and Arabic. Some things can be easily disproven. And once your caught, say 'bye bye' to that school.

I would say that since ECs are not that important, you can probably get away with some lying, but ECs typically don't make or break your application. Not unless it's something really good like working at a major research institution, or doing the Peace Corps for two years etc, but then, they would expect a recommendation for the EC to be meaningful (otherwise, for all they know, you could have shown up for a week and then hit the beach afterwards). So it's your grades and MCAT score that are the most important, and those things are much harder to make up. In the end, the stuff that will make or break your application---your stats, important stuff you've done, recommendations---those things are harder to make up and so lying on your application, while fairly easy to do, you probably can't do it on the big stuff to sneak into med school.

 

[Hassler]

After all, why would you want to feel like a fake? Knowing that perhaps only your lies got you accepted and not what you actually have achieved?

👍

 

[notdeadyet]

Suppose, for instance, I sent out a hundred requests for letters of recommendation to people in the charitable community. Who's to say that one or two wouldn't give it to their secretary and have her grind out the usual letter for their signature? Would your school check beyond that?

Anyone who is comfortable having sealed letters of rec sent in from folks they've never met surely deserves the inevitable disaster that awaits them in their application.

For every schmuck who's send in the boilerplate, there would undoubtedly be one or two who write "I'm sending this in on behalf of a form letter I received from someone I've never met..."

 

[63768]

no one will check. what keeps people from making it up is the fact that in an interview, anything you put on your app is fair game. if an interviewer has any reason to believe you're BSing it, you will get grilled and you'll probably fail.

 

[baylormed]

As everyone, I would hope everyone would follow the basic principles of honesty and truthfulness. However, that's probably not the case and many people either lie or aggrandize their activities.

I think being found out depends on the nature of the lie. For example, if a person says they volunteered 10 hours a week instead of 6 in an organization that keeps no records or that has since closed, there is no one that could possibly verify and catch this lie.

However, if someone says they speak fluent Spanish or Swahili or Whathaveyou, it's easily disproven if during the interview or later on they are asked to speak that language. If a person lists they won such-and-such prestigious award, it is also easy to verify. If I say I spent 3 months in India, I can easily be caught in the lie.

That's the truth, I doubt many schools would take the time to verify every single EC listed by every applicant, but I think if the lie is big enough it might be easy to spot.