What really makes an applicant stand out in the adcom's eyes?

[Tired]

---

Members do not see this ad.

How many people have you admitted to medical school?

How many have you rejected?

I know what we are looking for in 2008. We have the BS detectors set on HIGH to ferret out the resume padders and box checkers. We are looking for sincerely interesting people who know how to work hard and play hard.

I'm not arguing that I know more about the admissions process than you, I'm arguing that the process is inherently ******ed.

The system is set up to encourage BS, participation in activities people aren't interested in, and meaningless "clinical experiences" that do no one any good at all. Worse yet, you expect people to be sincerely interested in this nonsense. How perfectly Orwellian of you.

Volunteer activities, "leadership in peer groups", shadowing, non-science GPA, extracurricular interests. None of this has crap to do with becoming a successful medical student or physician. Nothing. It is just one more arbitrary, meaningless tool you utilize to pare down your applicant pool.

You might as well start making up other pointless criteria, like "have an interesting haircut". Then we could all enjoy the threads titled "Highlights vs Total Color Change: Which will look better to adcoms?" and "Male pattern baldness! Do I Still Have a Shot?!". You could periodically post comments about how you need to sincerely want to change your hairstyle and not just do it to get into med school. That would be about as meaningful as threads like this one.

Have hope, premeds. Residency selection is nothing like this nonsense.

 

[emttim]

I'm not arguing that I know more about the admissions process than you, I'm arguing that the process is inherently ******ed.

The system is set up to encourage BS, participation in activities people aren't interested in, and meaningless "clinical experiences" that do no one any good at all. Worse yet, you expect people to be sincerely interested in this nonsense. How perfectly Orwellian of you.

Volunteer activities, "leadership in peer groups", shadowing, non-science GPA, extracurricular interests. None of this has crap to do with becoming a successful medical student or physician. Nothing. It is just one more arbitrary, meaningless tool you utilize to pare down your applicant pool.

You might as well start making up other pointless criteria, like "have an interesting haircut". Then we could all enjoy the threads titled "Highlights vs Total Color Change: Which will look better to adcoms?" and "Male pattern baldness! Do I Still Have a Shot?!". You could periodically post comments about how you need to sincerely want to change your hairstyle and not just do it to get into med school. That would be about as meaningful as threads like this one.

Have hope, premeds. Residency selection is nothing like this nonsense.

👍

 

[Breazy]

I'm not arguing that I know more about the admissions process than you, I'm arguing that the process is inherently ******ed.

The system is set up to encourage BS, participation in activities people aren't interested in, and meaningless "clinical experiences" that do no one any good at all. Worse yet, you expect people to be sincerely interested in this nonsense. How perfectly Orwellian of you.

Volunteer activities, "leadership in peer groups", shadowing, non-science GPA, extracurricular interests. None of this has crap to do with becoming a successful medical student or physician. Nothing. It is just one more arbitrary, meaningless tool you utilize to pare down your applicant pool.

You might as well start making up other pointless criteria, like "have an interesting haircut". Then we could all enjoy the threads titled "Highlights vs Total Color Change: Which will look better to adcoms?" and "Male pattern baldness! Do I Still Have a Shot?!". You could periodically post comments about how you need to sincerely want to change your hairstyle and not just do it to get into med school. That would be about as meaningful as threads like this one.

Have hope, premeds. Residency selection is nothing like this nonsense.

Second. 👍👍

 

[LaMusicienne]

The system is set up to encourage BS, participation in activities people aren't interested in, and meaningless "clinical experiences" that do no one any good at all. Worse yet, you expect people to be sincerely interested in this nonsense. How perfectly Orwellian of you.

Volunteer activities, "leadership in peer groups", shadowing, non-science GPA, extracurricular interests. None of this has crap to do with becoming a successful medical student or physician. Nothing. It is just one more arbitrary, meaningless tool you utilize to pare down your applicant pool.

You might as well start making up other pointless criteria, like "have an interesting haircut". Then we could all enjoy the threads titled "Highlights vs Total Color Change: Which will look better to adcoms?" and "Male pattern baldness! Do I Still Have a Shot?!". You could periodically post comments about how you need to sincerely want to change your hairstyle and not just do it to get into med school. That would be about as meaningful as threads like this one.

While the admissions process may encourage BS, the admissions committee is sufficiently adept at recognizing this BS. Therefore, while it exists, it is easily weeded out and becomes inconsequential.

However, I do think that having genuine interest in extracurricular activities has plenty to do with becoming a successful physician. These activities, if pursued with true interest, builds character, passion, and well-roundedness. They also encourage discipline and time-management, as the applicant must successfully juggle academics with music/sports/volunteering. Don't you think a physician ought to have these qualities? Do you want to be treated by a brilliant but monotone doctor who has no idea how to relate to patients or comfort patients, because he/she has pursued nothing but pre-reqs? I wouldn't be comfortable if I were the patient.

Haircuts, however, has nothing to do with an applicant's talent, passion, or character.

 

[SBBunny]

I think that my bizarre musical exploits are the sole reason that I've been getting so many amazing interview invitations. I went out on a limb and tried something really, really weird because I thought that it would be a fun thing to do (and it was!). So, I'm proof that extracurriculars can make a difference to admissions committees. I've done plenty of traditional stuff too- volunteering, tutoring, a wee bit of student government, lots of research, etc. Those are the things that made me decide that medicine was the right career for me and I'm not surprised to find that other applicants have done similar things. There's a limited number of ways in which people discover their passion for medicine, but that doesn't mean that there's little variation in the KINDS of people who decide to pursue medicine. Your extracurriculars are a way to show admissions committees that you've really explored medicine AND a way to tell them more about you. There's a person behind every premed. Try to portray the fullest picture of yourself and, if a school doesn't like it, then you're not meant for that school.

 

[Tired]

For those of you who may have forgotten, or never seen it in the first place, I will sign off this thread with Panda's Personal Statement

pandabearmd.com

“Mbuto.”

My African driver springs to his feet.

“Yes, Sahib.”

“Pass me another baby, I think this one has died.” I lay the dead infant in the pile by my feet. What I’d really like him to do is pass me an ice-cold bottle of the local beer. Compassion is hot, thirsty work. There is no ice in this wretched refugee camp, mores the pity, but as I’m here to help I will suffer in silence. I stare into the eyes of the African baby who is suffering from HIV or dengue fever or something gross and look out into the hot, dusty savannah and ask, “Why? Why gender-neutral and non-judgmental Diety (or Deities) does this have to happen?”

“And Why, Mbuto, is the air-conditioning on my Land Rover broken again?”

“One thousand pardons, Sahib, but the parts have not arrived.”

I will suffer. I have lived a life of privilege and my suffering serves to link me to the suffering of mankind. I roll the window down. God it’s hot. How can people live here? Why don’t they move where it’s cool? Still, I see by the vacant stare from the walking skeletons who insist on blocking the road that they appreciate my compassion and I know that in a small way, I am making a difference in their lives.

Africa. Oh wretched continent! How long must you suffer? How long will you provide the venue to compensate for a low MCAT score? How many must die before I am accepted to a top-tier medical school?

When did I first discover that I, myself, desired to be a doctor? Some come to the decision late in life, often not until the age of five. The non-traditional applicants might not know until they are seven or even, as hard as it is to believe, until the end of ninth grade. I came, myself, to the realization that I, myself, wanted to be a doctor on the way through the birth canal when I realized that my large head was causing a partial third degree vaginal laceration. I quickly threw a couple of sutures into the fascia between contractions so strong was my desire to help people.

My dedication to service was just beginning. At five I was counseling the first-graders on their reproductive options. By twelve I was volunteering at a suicide crisis center/free needle exchange hot-line for troubled transgendered teens. I’ll never forget Jose, a young Hispanic male with HIV who had just been kicked out of his casa by his conservative Catholic parents. He had turned to black tar heroin as his only solace and he was literally at the end of his rope when he called.

“How about a condom, Hose,” I asked. The J, as you know, is pronounced like an H in Spanish.

Annoying silence on the line. Hesus, I was there to help him.

“Condoms will solve all of your problems,” I continued, “In fact, in a paper of which I was listed as the fourth author, we found that condoms prevent all kinds of diseases including HIV which I have a suspicion is the root of your depression.”

More silence. No one had ever had such a rapport with him. He was speechless and grateful and I took his sobs as evidence of my compassion.

“Hey, it was double-blinded and placebo controlled, vato.” Cultural competence is important and I value my diverse upbringing which has exposed me to peoples of many different ethnicities. I always say “What up, Homes,” to the nice young negroes who assemble my Big Mac and I think they accept me as a soul brother. “

“We also have needles, amigo. Clean needles would prevent HIV too.”

My desire to be a physician has mirrored my desire to actualize my potential to serve humanity in many capacities. This may be something unheard of from medical school applicant but I have a strong desire to help people. I manifest this desire by my dedication to obtaining all kinds of exposure to all different kinds of people but mostly those from underserved and underprivileged populations. In fact, during a stint in a Doctors Without Borders spin-off chapter I learned the true meaning of underserved while staffing a mall health care pavilion in La Jolla, California.

Most of my friends are black or latino and I am a “Junior Cousin” of the Nation of Islam where I teach infidel abasement techniques to the Mohammed (PBUHN) Scouts. I also am active in the fight for women’s reproductive rights except of course for women in Afghanistan who were better off before our current racist war.

As Maya Angelou once said, “All men (and womyn) are prepared to accomplish the incredible if their ideals are threatened.” I feel this embodies my philosophy best because the prospect of grad school is too horrible to contemplate."

 

[decafplease]

I'm not arguing that I know more about the admissions process than you, I'm arguing that the process is inherently ******ed.

The system is set up to encourage BS, participation in activities people aren't interested in, and meaningless "clinical experiences" that do no one any good at all. Worse yet, you expect people to be sincerely interested in this nonsense. How perfectly Orwellian of you.

Volunteer activities, "leadership in peer groups", shadowing, non-science GPA, extracurricular interests. None of this has crap to do with becoming a successful medical student or physician. Nothing. It is just one more arbitrary, meaningless tool you utilize to pare down your applicant pool.

You might as well start making up other pointless criteria, like "have an interesting haircut". Then we could all enjoy the threads titled "Highlights vs Total Color Change: Which will look better to adcoms?" and "Male pattern baldness! Do I Still Have a Shot?!". You could periodically post comments about how you need to sincerely want to change your hairstyle and not just do it to get into med school. That would be about as meaningful as threads like this one.

Have hope, premeds. Residency selection is nothing like this nonsense.

I have no beef with your above staement, Tired. I just wanted to say, although my extended clinical experience (6,000 hours as a medical assistant) isn't the usual "shadowing/hospital volunteer" stuff, I found it INCREDIBLY useful. I may feel differently someday, but I think it has helped me face some scary and emotionally challenging circumstances early enough in my career to change my mindset for the better. I feel better prepared and stronger for it; not just for med school, but life in general. I feel that my clinical experience has shaped my desire for medicine better equipped me for the challenges I'll face as a clinical med student and resident, however small an advantage that is.

That said, I think the "40 hours shadowing surgeon, captain of football team" stuff is crap. At best, it weeds out a FEW people that wouldn't have probably made it past the personal statement anyway. If you can't handle a few hours in the ED, you won't be able to answer why you want to be a doctor, and the question itself will probably bring you to the realization that you don't want to go to medical school.

So, yeah, I think a lot of this is BS. I enjoy my EC's, but must admit that sometimes I believe they serve a better purpose as something listed on my AMCAS than as some great experience I'll be able to call on later for guidance. My clinical experience is the one exception. I think that the guidance I received and the things I saw and learned will be a comfort to me later on. It was important to me that I see (and emotionally process) the ugly side of medicine prior to being trapped in the debt shackles of med school. I came to the conclusion that I still wanted to be a doctor, independent of any external pressure. It is that conclusion that will comfort (and perhaps haunt?) me later.

 

[emttim]

I have no beef with your above staement, Tired. I just wanted to say, although my extended clinical experience (6,000 hours as a medical assistant) isn't the usual "shadowing/hospital volunteer" stuff, I found it INCREDIBLY useful. I may feel differently someday, but I think it has helped me face some scary and emotionally challenging circumstances early enough in my career to change my mindset for the better. I feel better prepared and stronger for it; not just for med school, but life in general. I feel that my clinical experience has shaped my desire for medicine better equipped me for the challenges I'll face as a clinical med student and resident, however small an advantage that is.

That said, I think the "40 hours shadowing surgeon, captain of football team" stuff is crap. At best, it weeds out a FEW people that wouldn't have probably made it past the personal statement anyway. If you can't handle a few hours in the ED, you won't be able to answer why you want to be a doctor, and the question itself will probably bring you to the realization that you don't want to go to medical school.

So, yeah, I think a lot of this is BS. I enjoy my EC's, but must admit that sometimes I believe they serve a better purpose as something listed on my AMCAS than as some great experience I'll be able to call on later for guidance. My clinical experience is the one exception. I think that the guidance I received and the things I saw and learned will be a comfort to me later on. It was important to me that I see (and emotionally process) the ugly side of medicine prior to being trapped in the debt shackles of med school. I came to the conclusion that I still wanted to be a doctor, independent of any external pressure. It is that conclusion that will comfort (and perhaps haunt?) me later.

The problem is what most people claim as clinical experience on their app is probably a bunch of bull****. I'm sure there are exceptions, but for the most part, unless you're an MA, EMT, CNA, LVN, RN, phlebotomist, etc. then whatever you're doing is probably not clinical. It'd make a hell of a lot more sense to simply require previous experience in one of the aforementioned jobs instead of some vague crap such as "clinical experience".

 

[Drogba]

The problem is what most people claim as clinical experience on their app is probably a bunch of bull****. I'm sure there are exceptions, but for the most part, unless you're an MA, EMT, CNA, LVN, RN, phlebotomist, etc. then whatever you're doing is probably not clinical. It'd make a hell of a lot more sense to simply require previous experience in one of the aforementioned jobs instead of some vague crap such as "clinical experience".

Yeah then maybe they can require that you become a nurse or a PA before applying for med school. All we need in this process is even more stringent requirements. You can't possibly advocate requiring professional training just to be considered for acceptance to a med school. Also, there are many ways alternate clinical experiences can be valuable even if you are not directly involved in the patients medical treatment. If you are in a clinical environment and have an opportunity to interact with patients and medical staff I don't understand why that should be discounted.

 

[emttim]

Yeah then maybe they can require that you become a nurse or a PA before applying for med school. All we need in this process is even more stringent requirements. You can't possibly advocate requiring professional training just to be considered for acceptance to a med school. Also, there are many ways alternate clinical experiences can be valuable even if you are not directly involved in the patients medical treatment. If you are in a clinical environment and have an opportunity to interact with patients and medical staff I don't understand why that should be discounted.

Right, because a requirement that actually makes sense just wouldn't fit in with the admissions process, now would it? Silly me.

 

[mmc48]

Right, because a requirement that actually makes sense just wouldn't fit in with the admissions process, now would it? Silly me.

For some of us younger folks who have to work their butts off during the school year and the summer to pay for school,etc., having to get extra training (which most fpeoplehave to pay for mind you) in a job that we won't use after matriculation makes very little sense when our efforts can be better focused. I think their valuable experiences, but they aren't practical for everyone.

 

[HumidBeing]

The problem is what most people claim as clinical experience on their app is probably a bunch of bull****. I'm sure there are exceptions, but for the most part, unless you're an MA, EMT, CNA, LVN, RN, phlebotomist, etc. then whatever you're doing is probably not clinical. It'd make a hell of a lot more sense to simply require previous experience in one of the aforementioned jobs instead of some vague crap such as "clinical experience".

No it wouldn't make sense to do that. Even though all of those are occupations are in the health field, they require different skill sets. It would be a disservice to all of them if we went into cranking out workers who had no intention of staying in the fields. Many of those occupations already have a shortage of qualified personnel and too few spots in training programs to accommodate those who desire to enter them.

The intent of requiring clinical exposure is not because schools want applicants to have demonstrated proficiency in a health related occupation. They will learn that as they work their way through med school. It is so that they will have a slightly more realistic view of the field of medicine in order to judge whether the path really is something in which they wish to invest their lives.

 

[Drogba]

Jesus the training for becoming a practicing physician is alread a minimum of 7 years not including undergrad and there should be more training required, training that earns you very little money, does not contribute directly to your ultimate career, costs you tuition and contributes to decreased wages in said jobs by increasing the supply of workers all to demonstrate your desire to become a physician? Yeah that is perfectly reasonable.

More required hoops is exactly what the game needs.

I have plenty of clinical experience that that has been personally enriching and probably many times more unique than what the average student has done all outside of the categories listed above. It would be ridiculous to discount that.

 

[Piyush]

Add army medics to that list 🙂. I got to see a private that walked for twelve hours with sores all over her heel, and we had to saw off her boot to get to the injury at the end of the day, and also saw a captain that came in for a bandaid for a scratch that I could not even see...



And did someone actually write that PS that was posted above?

Piyush.

The problem is what most people claim as clinical experience on their app is probably a bunch of bull****. I'm sure there are exceptions, but for the most part, unless you're an MA, EMT, CNA, LVN, RN, phlebotomist, etc. then whatever you're doing is probably not clinical. It'd make a hell of a lot more sense to simply require previous experience in one of the aforementioned jobs instead of some vague crap such as "clinical experience".

 

[LizzyM]

And did someone actually write that PS that was posted above?

Yes, someone actually wrote it.


But, no, it was not submitted as a PS for medical school admission.


There is plenty that a person can do with minimal "on the job" training. Remember, the only requirement is that you be close enough to smell patients. It doesn't mean qualifying as a certified, registered or licensed anything. It doesn't have to take place in the third world.

If you intend to spend a career caring for the sick, it might be useful to have some inkling of the environment inwhich you will work before investing 2 years of your life and borrowing thousands of dollars in student loans only to discover when you hit the clinical rotations that you hate sick people, can't stand the clinical environment, and wish that you had followed your older brother to law school.

 

[Bacchus]

Presumably you were alluding to her massive cleavage. As per the joke earlier, massive cleavage would suggest an ability to get into any school simply by "using" that to her advantage. The bigger the breasts, the more prestigious school.

Got it. I don't like girls that spill out too much. This girl wasn't getting into HMS but she was getting places.

 

[VoiceofReason]

Medical school admissions is a game. There are a number of activities that are generally accepted to be necessary in order to be an ideal applicant, which are also, ironically, pretty far from necessary in making you a good physician. Also, I wish you guys would stop saying that adcoms can sniff out bull**** on paper before actually interviewing. That's ludicrous, my volunteer work looks exactly the same on paper as the next person's volunteer work, and as long as the person is playing the game right, no adcom is going to be able to discern your level of interest in it. Prepare your application to look its best by doing the things mentioned here -- and if you do it right, you're not gonna set off any BS meters, how could you? -- you'll look like all the other ideal applicants on paper.

LizzyM's list is what adcoms are looking for in an ideal applicant. Med school admissions is a game. Med school admissions is a game. Med school admissions is a game.

If I could I would have played recreational sports with my friends, lifted weights, drank beer, and played video games with all my free time. I don't see how those activities make me less of a potential surgeon than the next person. I'm pretty dam good at video games anyway, i'll master the lap chole in a day 😛

 

[phospho]

I'm not arguing that I know more about the admissions process than you, I'm arguing that the process is inherently ******ed.

The system is set up to encourage BS, participation in activities people aren't interested in, and meaningless "clinical experiences" that do no one any good at all. Worse yet, you expect people to be sincerely interested in this nonsense. How perfectly Orwellian of you.

Volunteer activities, "leadership in peer groups", shadowing, non-science GPA, extracurricular interests. None of this has crap to do with becoming a successful medical student or physician. Nothing. It is just one more arbitrary, meaningless tool you utilize to pare down your applicant pool.

You might as well start making up other pointless criteria, like "have an interesting haircut". Then we could all enjoy the threads titled "Highlights vs Total Color Change: Which will look better to adcoms?" and "Male pattern baldness! Do I Still Have a Shot?!". You could periodically post comments about how you need to sincerely want to change your hairstyle and not just do it to get into med school. That would be about as meaningful as threads like this one.

Have hope, premeds. Residency selection is nothing like this nonsense.

i've said this before, and I will say it again...you rock.

it is people like you who reassure me that there is hope for medicine...😍

 

[Crixivan]

Yeah then maybe they can require that you become a nurse or a PA before applying for med school. All we need in this process is even more stringent requirements. You can't possibly advocate requiring professional training just to be considered for acceptance to a med school. Also, there are many ways alternate clinical experiences can be valuable even if you are not directly involved in the patients medical treatment. If you are in a clinical environment and have an opportunity to interact with patients and medical staff I don't understand why that should be discounted.

Nursing and PA schools in my area require some physiology and/or microbiology/immunology prior to admission, so in a sense they require more human biology prior to matriculation. What makes pre-med stringent is the competition with classmates in courses that are essentially designed for underclassmen. My med school only had about 60 required hours, and all of the material on the MCAT is included in the first 3-4 semesters of a typical physical science or engineering curriculum. I've heard that some schools don't require Bachelor's degrees to get into med school.

I'm not necessarily advocating that med students should have a prior medical profession prior to admission, but I do think that doctors in training should get to the meat of the learning earlier on. Pharm D's, for instance, only need 2 years of UG before they can get started, and an MD without PGY training is useless. Students shouldn't have to sit in a classroom for 6 years before they get a glimpse of how the system works. The whole system is very financially wasteful.

Wanna know what makes an applicant stand out? MCAT--the only true common objective measure used to compare all applicants.

 

[decafplease]

Yes, someone actually wrote it.


But, no, it was not submitted as a PS for medical school admission.


There is plenty that a person can do with minimal "on the job" training. Remember, the only requirement is that you be close enough to smell patients. It doesn't mean qualifying as a certified, registered or licensed anything. It doesn't have to take place in the third world.

If you intend to spend a career caring for the sick, it might be useful to have some inkling of the environment inwhich you will work before investing 2 years of your life and borrowing thousands of dollars in student loans only to discover when you hit the clinical rotations that you hate sick people, can't stand the clinical environment, and wish that you had followed your older brother to law school.

I was an "on the job" trained MA, so I agree. I wouldn't have wasted any time or money trying to get certified. Find MDs who are willing to take you under their wing and you're set. It's not the title that matters, it's the experience.

Secondly, I think it would be nice, and useful (but not necessary) for premeds to get exposed to some of administrative aspects of medicine, because I have personally spoken to physicians that would have better prepared themselves for the struggles of running a practice had they seen how it all worked. A LOT of what physicians do today has little to do with caring for patients. There's a lot of crap with insurance companies, coding classes, billing, administrative tasks, etc. And that's even if you have the world's best office manager.

I think that might turn some people off and make them consider a patient-care role with less responsibility, like PA or RNP. Running a medical practice is worse than running a business, because you can't focus entirely on the business or the patients. Ask the physician you're shadowing for a better idea of all the non-medical responsibilities (s)he has, and you'll have a much more realistic picture of what it means to be a doctor. (I believe that hospital-based physicians have their own bureaucracy to deal with, but aren't involved in hiring/firing, billing, etc. in the way private practice MDs are.)

 

[MsJLewis]

I pretty much agree with Tired's sentiment. It is a game with arbitrary criteria and rules. I agree that we want well rounded balanced people in med school but sometimes I feel like I'm a poodle jumping through hoops just to please the admission's committee! I do think that exposure to a clinical environment is necessary and should always be a requirement because its better to find out that you hate a clinical setting before you get into insurmountable debt.

That said, why are we complaining?? We know its an admissions game going into it. If you want to rebel against the system and not jump through the hoops like a good little poodle, then fine go ahead and do so...

This little poodle will gladly take your spot... 🙄.

 

[Drogba]

Nursing and PA schools in my area require some physiology and/or microbiology/immunology prior to admission, so in a sense they require more human biology prior to matriculation. What makes pre-med stringent is the competition with classmates in courses that are essentially designed for underclassmen. My med school only had about 60 required hours, and all of the material on the MCAT is included in the first 3-4 semesters of a typical physical science or engineering curriculum. I've heard that some schools don't require Bachelor's degrees to get into med school.

I'm not necessarily advocating that med students should have a prior medical profession prior to admission, but I do think that doctors in training should get to the meat of the learning earlier on. Pharm D's, for instance, only need 2 years of UG before they can get started, and an MD without PGY training is useless. Students shouldn't have to sit in a classroom for 6 years before they get a glimpse of how the system works. The whole system is very financially wasteful.

Wanna know what makes an applicant stand out? MCAT--the only true common objective measure used to compare all applicants.

Well we could've adopted the 6 year model that the europeans use. That is 4 years basic science and 2 years clinical right after highschool. That means the pace of the basic sciences would be slower which I don't think too many med students would complain about. You also get to PG training 2 years earlier. In return you lose some breadth in general knowledge by not going to undergrad and you have to make the decision to enter medicine 4 years earlier and possibly with much less information.

I appreciate the opportunity to go through undergrad and I think it has been an enriching experience but I knew I wanted to go into medicine coming in to college so a 6 year medical program would have been ok with me (European style, not combined BS/MD). There is no reason why the pace of med school should be as crazy as I hear it is and I suspect the main reason for the 4 year curriculum is financial.

 

[etf]

Well we could've adopted the 6 year model that the europeans use. That is 4 years basic science and 2 years clinical right after highschool. That means the pace of the basic sciences would be slower which I don't think too many med students would complain about. You also get to PG training 2 years earlier. In return you lose some breadth in general knowledge by not going to undergrad and you have to make the decision to enter medicine 4 years earlier and possibly with much less information.

I appreciate the opportunity to go through undergrad and I think it has been an enriching experience but I knew I wanted to go into medicine coming in to college so a 6 year medical program would have been ok with me (European style, not combined BS/MD). There is no reason why the pace of med school should be as crazy as I hear it is and I suspect the main reason for the 4 year curriculum is financial.

this is how the system is in india, and it seems to be working, because they seem to pump out some of the best physicians in the world. in fact, when i was shadowing in india, half the time the other physicians were wondering what the hell i was doing there. they couldn't fathom that i had to get an undergraduate degree first, and that shadowing (watching them while not being able to help in any way) was a requirement for admission in the U.S. at the end of the day, medicine is a job, just like in any other field. we just have to jump through all these hoops in order to get brainwashed into thinking that it's so much better than any other career choice, so that we won't complain when we're making 40k a year as a resident.

 

[leftmid]

Cleavage

Wrinkles, I bet.😱

 

[Drogba]

this is how the system is in india, and it seems to be working, because they seem to pump out some of the best physicians in the world. in fact, when i was shadowing in india, half the time the other physicians were wondering what the hell i was doing there. they couldn't fathom that i had to get an undergraduate degree first, and that shadowing (watching them while not being able to help in any way) was a requirement for admission in the U.S. at the end of the day, medicine is a job, just like in any other field. we just have to jump through all these hoops in order to get brainwashed into thinking that it's so much better than any other career choice, so that we won't complain when we're making 40k a year as a resident.

The 6 year programs attract plenty of people who are truly passionate about medicine as it is. I disagree with your final statement though because, at least in parts of Europe, to gain admissions into med school you have to score in the top percentile on national exams and when you graduate to work for the public sector you will be making 25-30k euros per year for the duration of your career if you are lucky. If you aren't you might be unemployed. Even so plenty of people choose to go into medicine (which is part of the problem in some of these countries).

 

[scrubsaresexy]

It kind of worries me the way that people gripe about 'jumping through hoops.' There are so many ways to get pre-med experience; you shouldn't have to do something that makes you miserable. Don't want to volunteer at a hospital? Find something else to do to get clinical experience. I didn't like volunteering in the ED where I go to school because I couldn't do anything and it was really boring. So I went and got my EMT-B. But I also investigated getting hired for patient transport (wheeling people to radiology and whatnot) and working in a morgue (which would've been amazing and I wish I had applied), which wouldn't have required me to get a certification.

I also have a lot of extra stuff that I do that isn't pre-med related, but it makes me happy, and I think it will stand out some. I ride with my local volunteer fire department, and I'm training to also be a firefighter. I race sailboats on the weekends. I work on boats when I'm not sailing. I'm an RA responsible for 45 students. I also work my butt off in classes, but all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.

Most of us (traditional students) are young; this is the prime of our lives. Why make yourself miserable?

 

[pakbabydoll]

Hey Lizzy, I was just wondering if we could:
1) Put reading as a hobby? Not school books, just regular fiction or philosophy books.
2) Would working at a hospital's pharmacy be clinical experience? We don't normally deal with patients but we do assist with codes.

 

[LizzyM]

Hey Lizzy, I was just wondering if we could:
1) Put reading as a hobby? Not school books, just regular fiction or philosophy books.
2) Would working at a hospital's pharmacy be clinical experience? We don't normally deal with patients but we do assist with codes.

I don't recall anyone listing reading as a hobby. Why not organize a book club that meets every 6-8 weeks and discusses a book. That's leadership!😉

Is pharmacy a clinical experience? Are you close enough to the patients that you can smell them? (with all due respect to the patients) If so, then yes; if not, then no.

 

[pakbabydoll]

I don't recall anyone listing reading as a hobby. Why not organize a book club that meets every 6-8 weeks and discusses a book. That's leadership!😉

Is pharmacy a clinical experience? Are you close enough to the patients that you can smell them? (with all due respect to the patients) If so, then yes; if not, then no.

Thank you so much. I really appreciate it 🙂
I guess with pharmacy I can only *smell* patients when I assist with a code which is like once or twice in months since I only work weekends. However , I do volunteer in the ER, and I work closely with them there.

 

[decafplease]

I don't recall anyone listing reading as a hobby. Why not organize a book club that meets every 6-8 weeks and discusses a book. That's leadership!😉

Are you kinda serious, or not at all? 🙂

 

[unsung]

I work part-time as a paternity collector, doing buccal (cheek) swabs on children, mothers, and alleged fathers (sometimes in jail).

Does that count as clinical experience?

 

[lolasmommy]

Become an EMT -- easy class, only a few months long, get hands-on patient contact, which most applicants don't have...it's gotten me more than school acceptances.*





*Discounts at Denny's

Hrm. Sounds like I'll be doing that PADI Divemaster course after all, just to be safe...

I suggest you do the Divemaster course. My husband had his general certification for diving in like 2 days for $150. I live on an island and diving is a big tourist attraction so its made available fast, cheap, and easy. Dont get me wrong it is efficient and safe. I didnt do it. I dont regret it though, I have trouble with equilizing my ears and stuff... I snorkel. Its cheaper, less pressure, and just as fun.

 

[LizzyM]

Are you kinda serious, or not at all? 🙂

About starting a book group that discusses a different book every 6-8 weeks? I was quite serious. I think that it is a great way to get to know people, to get different viewpoints on a work of fiction (or non-fiction) and sometimes to read something that you would not have chosen on your own.

 

[HanginInThere]

Lizzy,
What about the non-trad parents? If I'm not working (32 hrs/wk) or studying (12 credit hours/semester), I'm taking kids to their sporting events. The only "spare" time left is spent sleeping, doing laundry, or making dinner... Somehow, I don't think "watching juvenile baseball/soccer practice/games 12 hours per week" counts as an EC, but that's my life

Lizzy,
I'll definitely be counting my various jobs as "experience." Being 30-something, I've had a few.
I tried coaching 👎 My dear son said it best -- "A herd of cats could coach better than you." I think I'll leave that failure off (or perhaps group it with other kid-related things, such as chaperoning field trips and fund-raising for the school and sporting teams).
I definitely won't be counting cooking as a hobby/avocation, because I cook well enough to merely keep us fed (nothing gourmet...). Heck, I enjoy doing laundry more than cooking... I suppose my application will be hobby-less (unless SDN counts).
Thanks for all the help you give us. You're the best😍

Speaking as another non-trad parent, I'd say that even if you don't fit all of these experiences into the EC boxes, they'll still help you enormously. Your personal statement and secondary essays will probably highlight how your family life makes you the applicant you are.

Even more than the application, your interviews will really show off your identity. Most of the interviews I had this season were very interesting give-and-take conversations. Depending on what grabbed each interviewer and what was freshest in my mind, my interviews ranged over all facets of my application and beyond. I always felt like there were tons of things to talk about and tons of ways for me to show who I am and where I'm coming from, and with most of them I thought the inerviewer and I were really communicating well. If I'd tried to do these interviews ten+ years ago fresh out of school, I think it would have been a real struggle for me to sound like a unique, interesting, and memorable applicant.

(And I think that "herd of cats" line is great - I'd say it needs to find its way in somewhere!)

 

[45408]

Most of us have pretty good GPA's and MCAT scores, as well as, strong LOR's.

Not really. The average applicant's MCAT is around a 27. Likewise, everyone assumes they have good LORs, but very rarely have I ever heard of someone with real proof of that.

 

[45408]

While the admissions process may encourage BS, the admissions committee is sufficiently adept at recognizing this BS. Therefore, while it exists, it is easily weeded out and becomes inconsequential.

is that why so many of my classmates talk about how much BS they had to do in undergrad in order to get into med school?

 

[LizzyM]

is that why so many of my classmates talk about how much BS they had to do in undergrad in order to get into med school?

After cutting through all the BS, if I can't find something genuine in an application, I generally don't recommend an interview. So if someone got in with BS in their background, they got in despite the BS, not because of it.

A series of 3 month experiences that personify "check the box" is generally not enough to get someone an interview at a top school (I can't speak for every school).

 

[MattEvers]

While I would agree that medical school admissions is a lot of "BS", I'm not sure I would dismiss the entire process as such.

For those who see it this way, what would you recommend to be changed? Should admissions be solely GPA and MCAT based? How do you cut thousands of applicants to a hundred? You certainly can't interview them all.

With anything, there will be people who try to game the system. And a lot of them will be successful; that is a part of life, not just medical school admissions.

It is easy to recognize a problem. What is the solution? That's the important question.

Considering the applicant has spent the last four years in the medical field (or at least two), it would be much easier to gauge which people deserve residency spots. It's not so easy when you have a kid who majored in french, political science, etc. These people (as well as science majors) aren't as easy to judge; some of the process is arbitrary, but I think dismissing it to the level of haircut coolness is not fair.

Again, what is the solution?

 

[45408]

After cutting through all the BS, if I can't find something genuine in an application, I generally don't recommend an interview. So if someone got in with BS in their background, they got in despite the BS, not because of it.

A series of 3 month experiences that personify "check the box" is generally not enough to get someone an interview at a top school (I can't speak for every school).

I think a lot of people put in a lot of time and a lot of effort to accomplish something that they don't have much direct interest in, for no other reason than to get into med school. I'm not saying that the experiences are "fluff" or would ever come across as a BS "check the box" extracurricular, but it was viewed as a hoop to jump through, and not much more.

 

[armybound]

I think a lot of people put in a lot of time and a lot of effort to accomplish something that they don't have much direct interest in, for no other reason than to get into med school. I'm not saying that the experiences are "fluff" or would ever come across as a BS "check the box" extracurricular, but it was viewed as a hoop to jump through, and not much more.

I agree, and that's coming from personal experience. There are several things I did or am doing because it's seen as necessary for a good application, not because I actually want to do them out of the goodness of my heart.

And the things I do want to do, even if altruistic, are apparently looked at as insignificant. Go figure.

 

[gators13]

My unique EC was my athletic background. Playing a Divison I sport at a big name university was my ticket to interviews. But, my answer to the question "how do you plan to pay for medical school" and "where do you see yourself 10 years from now" (answer: the military) seemed to impress at least one of my interviewers more than my athlete status. I guess this ties into the whole genuine-answers thing.

 

[SoCalGirl]

This whole process is about how well you can sell yourself. Sure, a lot of people have similar stats/pre-med EC's, but you have to take your experiences and package them in a way that will stand out from others.

 

[tylerh87]

I'm not very interested in the "check the box" philosophy. I don't think there is such a thing. If you want to be a doctor...its gonna be evident to the Admissions Committee. For example:

I am a premed major. I have a 3.91 GPA, and will take my MCAT this April. I study alot, and do well in my classes, but I also do things that I LIKE. Example: this fall I started a Bass Fishing Club at my school. I am a member of a bass fishing team that fishes tournaments against other colleges regularly. Why do I do this? Its my outlet. I love to fish. I compete in tournaments all the time and have done many things to establish the club, such as securing sponsors to help us out with our costs. I am also a phlebotomist at a hospital in the summers full time. It helps me get through school financially (and funds my fishing habit 😀). I am also the Vice President of my fraternity, but still find time to study for my MCAT. These things are not to "check the box." These things are what I do because it is who I am. I do things I like to do...not for any other reason. If you go volunteer at a hospital JUST to fulfill a medical school requirement, then why do it? If you don't wanna commit some time to the medical field now, what makes you think that you are going to enjoy committing MUCH more of your time to your patients in the future? So I mean, thats just my opinion, but seriously...if you wanna be a doctor, it will be evident.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

I'm not very interested in the "check the box" philosophy. I don't think there is such a thing. If you want to be a doctor...its gonna be evident to the Admissions Committee. For example:

I am a premed major. I have a 3.91 GPA, and will take my MCAT this April. I study alot, and do well in my classes, but I also do things that I LIKE. Example: this fall I started a Bass Fishing Club at my school. I am a member of a collegiate bass fishing team that was recently ranked the 5th place team in the country. Why do I do this? Its my outlet. I love to fish. I compete in tournaments all the time and have done many things to establish the club, such as securing sponsors to help us out with our costs. I am also a phlebotomist at a hospital in the summers full time. It helps me get through school financially (and funds my fishing habit 😀). I am also the Vice President of my fraternity, but still find time to study for my MCAT. These things are not to "check the box." These things are what I do because it is who I am. I do things I like to do...not for any other reason. If you go volunteer at a hospital JUST to fulfill a medical school requirement, then why do it? If you don't wanna commit some time to the medical field now, what makes you think that you are going to enjoy committing MUCH more of your time to your patients in the future? So I mean, thats just my opinion, but seriously...if you wanna be a doctor, it will be evident.

You want a pat on the back?

 

[tylerh87]

No reason to come off tacky. I was just stating my opinion...take it or leave it kind of thing.

 

[Drogba]

You want a pat on the back?

3 posts is not enough to acculturate yourself to SDN, give em a break. Or better yet, don't. He needs to be socialized as quickly as possible.

 

[BrokenGlass]

I'm not very interested in the "check the box" philosophy. I don't think there is such a thing. If you want to be a doctor...its gonna be evident to the Admissions Committee. For example:

I am a premed major. I have a 3.91 GPA, and will take my MCAT this April. I study alot, and do well in my classes, but I also do things that I LIKE. Example: this fall I started a Bass Fishing Club at my school. I am a member of a collegiate bass fishing team that was recently ranked the 5th place team in the country. Why do I do this? Its my outlet. I love to fish. I compete in tournaments all the time and have done many things to establish the club, such as securing sponsors to help us out with our costs. I am also a phlebotomist at a hospital in the summers full time. It helps me get through school financially (and funds my fishing habit 😀). I am also the Vice President of my fraternity, but still find time to study for my MCAT. These things are not to "check the box." These things are what I do because it is who I am. I do things I like to do...not for any other reason. If you go volunteer at a hospital JUST to fulfill a medical school requirement, then why do it? If you don't wanna commit some time to the medical field now, what makes you think that you are going to enjoy committing MUCH more of your time to your patients in the future? So I mean, thats just my opinion, but seriously...if you wanna be a doctor, it will be evident.

5th place you say? that's probably because there are only 5 teams in the whole country.

 

[tylerh87]

5th place you say? that's probably because there are only 5 teams in the whole country.

haha, very funny. It's not the rankings that matter-its that I do what im interested in. Sorry to come off "cocky", or whatever I may have seemed to be. I was just reinforcing Lizzy's point about someone starting a book club, or something similar.

PS-There are 144 schools represented by Bass Fishing Teams in the USA.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

I placed 5th in the national fart and burp competition, can I put that down?

 

[SoCalGirl]

Tyler, don't worry about it, most people get what you were trying to say. SDN is just like that sometimes...🙄

Ugh, I wish I hadn't seen that avatar. 😱