What residencies will continue to be accessible to DO's after the merger?

[tunicaexterna]

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Hi,

I've applied to both MD and DO schools this cycle.

As of right now, the specialties that are most appealing to me (right now) are IM, Psych and PM&R. Before people jump in and say 'you might change your mind!', I know I might, but as of right now these are the specialties I am interested in.

The residencies for these three areas will continue to be accessible to DO's after the merger, right? If location effects this question, I want to stay in the midwest during residency (if I get into med school).

 

[TUVIX]

YES 100%. In fact, the specialties that you are interested in are some of the most DO friendly programs.

 

[cliquesh]

Yea, I wouldn't worry about those specialities. The only specialities that might be noticeably affected are general surgery and ortho. There about 100 DO only spots for these two specialities, and the future of those spots are uncertain.

 

[Dr. Death]

Yea, I wouldn't worry about those specialities. The only specialities that might be noticeably affected are general surgery and ortho. There about 100 DO only spots for these two specialities, and the future of those spots are uncertain.

And optho and derm probably those two more than gen surg

 

[QueenJames]

Any takes on radiology? Will that be shut out as well?

 

[DrBowtie]

Any takes on radiology? Will that be shut out as well?

No. Just top tiers like now

 

[Mad Jack]

Any takes on radiology? Will that be shut out as well?

There were over 100 spots that didn't fill in the match for radiology last year. It's not a very competitive specialty these days.

 

[cliquesh]

And optho and derm probably those two more than gen surg

Yeah, Derm will probably take a hit. 49 AOA derm spots were offered this year.

I don't know about optho, though. There were only 17 AOA spots last year and I don't think acgme optho is tremendously DO unfriendly. The 2 people in my class that matched optho matched at acgme programs.

 

[OrdinaryDO]

I don't get why this topic keeps coming back to haunt us. Just wait until the time comes and then worry about it. There is nothing you can do about it now and you will have to deal with what you can get when you get your COMLEX/USMLE scores. Just chill out, get IN medical school first, then worry about it when the time comes. Residencies aren't going anywhere.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I don't get why this topic keeps coming back to haunt us. Just wait until the time comes and then worry about it. There is nothing you can do about it now and you will have to deal with what you can get when you get your COMLEX/USMLE scores. Just chill out, get IN medical school first, then worry about it when the time comes. Residencies aren't going anywhere.

They should somehow sticky this comment or make it a contract when you join to not start any threads about specialties until you are accepted.

 

[IslandStyle808]

They should somehow sticky this comment or make it a contract when you join to not start any threads about specialties until you are accepted.

Too late to go MD if you have been accepted to a DO school. So if there was a time to worry it would be before medical school (before you apply). Once you start, there's nothing you can do other than be the best med student you can be.

 

[Gandyy]

There were over 100 spots that didn't fill in the match for radiology last year. It's not a very competitive specialty these days.

This is very interesting. Why is radiology not a competitive specialty?

 

[Mad Jack]

This is very interesting. Why is radiology not a competitive specialty?

There's no jobs without a fellowship or two and reimbursements are tanking. It's pretty much path all over again. Plus they're closing the interventional fellowships down, so there's no longer a path from DR>IR, which was one of the biggest reasons for competitive people to go into DR in the first place.

 

[DrBowtie]

There's no jobs without a fellowship or two and reimbursements are tanking. It's pretty much path all over again. Plus they're closing the interventional fellowships down, so there's no longer a path from DR>IR, which was one of the biggest reasons for competitive people to go into DR in the first place.

Not quite. The job market is indeed tight but not as dire as many say. You do need a fellowship so it's basically a 6 year program.

Rads was cut pretty hard for a few consecutive years but most recently no worse than anyone else.

During the height of its competitiveness in the late 90s and early 2000s there was growth in programs and now there are just too many spots and bad programs.

Your implication about IR is incorrect as it has only recently become popular as a subspecialty mainly due to relative improved job market. After multiple years of seeing residency classes come in 75% thinking IR and dwindle to 10-15% by the time to apply rolls around, I don't think it will have much impact.

 

[Mad Jack]

Not quite. The job market is indeed tight but not as dire as many say. You do need a fellowship so it's basically a 6 year program.

Rads was cut pretty hard for a few consecutive years but most recently no worse than anyone else.

During the height of its competitiveness in the late 90s and early 2000s there was growth in programs and now there are just too many spots and bad programs.

Your implication about IR is incorrect as it has only recently become popular as a subspecialty mainly due to relative improved job market. After multiple years of seeing residency classes come in 75% thinking IR and dwindle to 10-15% by the time to apply rolls around, I don't think it will have much impact.

Thanks for the clarification- maybe I'll put rads back on the 'ol list

 

[docycle]

there's no longer a path from DR>IR

Temporarily or like....no more interventionalists forever and for all time?

After multiple years of seeing residency classes come in 75% thinking IR and dwindle to 10-15% by the time to apply rolls around, I don't think it will have much impact.

Why does it dwindle? Competition, or they just don't want to do IR since the DR market is solid enough?

 

[Mad Jack]

Temporarily or like....no more interventionalists forever and for all time?

http://www.sirweb.org/fellows-residents-students/pathway-options.shtml

Basically, as of 2021, there are no more IR fellowships. IR is going the way of vascular and cardiothoracic and making it an integrated residency. Except, unlike vascular and cardiothoracic, the move is top-down and basically shutting down all of the fellowships.

 

[docycle]

http://www.sirweb.org/fellows-residents-students/pathway-options.shtml

Basically, as of 2021, there are no more IR fellowships. IR is going the way of vascular and cardiothoracic and making it an integrated residency. Except, unlike vascular and cardiothoracic, the move is top-down and basically shutting down all of the fellowships.

So IR will itself become a new type of residency? And this essentially means all current DRs are basically s*** out of luck unless they'd want to do the whole new IR residency?

 

[DrBowtie]

Temporarily or like....no more interventionalists forever and for all time?



Why does it dwindle? Competition, or they just don't want to do IR since the DR market is solid enough?

IR isn't as cool as it seems when you're a medical student. Worst lifestyle in radiology. Enough opportunity to do procedures as a DR. Etc.

 

[docycle]

Hi,

I've applied to both MD and DO schools this cycle.

As of right now, the specialties that are most appealing to me (right now) are IM, Psych and PM&R. Before people jump in and say 'you might change your mind!', I know I might, but as of right now these are the specialties I am interested in.

The residencies for these three areas will continue to be accessible to DO's after the merger, right? If location effects this question, I want to stay in the midwest during residency (if I get into med school).

Everything should be accessible to everybody now. That was the point. An exception would be programs that get shut down for not meeting ACGME standards. Course I feel like no program would just be like "aww shucks well guess the program's over now" -- I assume they'd simply just yield to the ACGME's demands before getting shut down.

 

[docycle]

IR isn't as cool as it seems when you're a medical student. Worst lifestyle in radiology. Enough opportunity to do procedures as a DR. Etc.

Lol never heard of rads really being considered lifestyle. Except maybe a personally-owned pp. But that goes for every specialty.

Dat IR ca$h doe.....

 

[Mad Jack]

So IR will itself become a new type of residency? And this essentially means all current DRs are basically s*** out of luck unless they'd want to do the whole new IR residency?

As of 2021, yes.

 

[DrBowtie]

So IR will itself become a new type of residency? And this essentially means all current DRs are basically s*** out of luck unless they'd want to do the whole new IR residency?

Some places will just transition to a two year fellowship for late bloomers with potential for a year of credit for heavy IR experience during DR training.

 

[docycle]

As of 2021, yes.

Well, there's always a bright side.

IR guys are gonna be more valuable for a little while.

 

[docycle]

Some places will just transition to a two year fellowship for late bloomers with potential for a year of credit for heavy IR experience during DR training.

Ah ok.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Too late to go MD if you have been accepted to a DO school. So if there was a time to worry it would be before medical school (before you apply). Once you start, there's nothing you can do other than be the best med student you can be.

False.... It's too late to go MD if you've matriculated DO.. ita just tiring to keep seeing threads like "I am only competative to DO schools but I want to do neurosurgery at Harvard!!! Is that doable as a DO??????" Get into medical school first and then start worrying about specialties. If you get an MD acceptance go, if you get a DO acceptance then go and work hard so you will be competative for whatever it is you end up wanting to do. Have a game plan but don't be all worried if you can still do Rad Onc at WashU before you even take the MCAT.

Steps down off of soapbox... Haha sorry little testy from finals studying..😀

 

[IslandStyle808]

False.... It's too late to go MD if you've matriculated DO.. ita just tiring to keep seeing threads like "I am only competative to DO schools but I want to do neurosurgery at Harvard!!! Is that doable as a DO??????" Get into medical school first and then start worrying about specialties. If you get an MD acceptance go, if you get a DO acceptance then go and work hard so you will be competative for whatever it is you end up wanting to do. Have a game plan but don't be all worried if you can still do Rad Onc at WashU before you even take the MCAT.

Steps down off of soapbox... Haha sorry little testy from finals studying..😀

I understand what you mean, but it get's even more annoying when they ask this question as a medical student. Members would instead go, "well why did you go DO if you were interested in these extremely competitive specialties?" If you read osteo you will see these stories every so often with the same responses. Unfortunately the best time to ask is before applying, even if it does get annoying.

(yep finals can drive a person up a wall, been there too many times to count)

 

[tunicaexterna]

I see folks getting chastised on here for not 'doing their homework', so to speak, about various topics (quality of education varying from school to school, prospects for DO grads, etc), and I am trying to do my homework on this.

Medical school is long, a ton of work and expensive, and I want to make sure that when I get to the end of that road (if I get in), that the specialties that I am interested in (at this point) will be there.

 

[deleted421268]

Specialties I am most interested in are general surgery and orthopedics. How will getting a residency for either of them look like 2020-2022 and onward for both of them? If DO does not offer solid chance of obtaining might as well strive for allopathic even if one gets DO acceptance

 

[Dustbowl12]

I see folks getting chastised on here for not 'doing their homework', so to speak, about various topics (quality of education varying from school to school, prospects for DO grads, etc), and I am trying to do my homework on this.

Medical school is long, a ton of work and expensive, and I want to make sure that when I get to the end of that road (if I get in), that the specialties that I am interested in (at this point) will be there.

Listen man, MD vs DO is not a big of difference as it used to be. The Top MD schools are head and shoulders ahead of every other medical school in that nation. Just go where you get accepted and score well on boards. People take DO over MD for location quite often, if it was that crippling they wouldn't do that. (meaning they stay with a local DO rather than out of state DO)

The only time you will get shafted for being a DO MIGHT be if its down to you vs an MD with comparable stats. Even that is a maybe.

DOs have had higher match rates than MDs for years, the largest sim lab and teaching hospital both belong to DO schools. GME is being merged. Te point is, get your scores and letters, letters of rec matter not your letters after the name

 

[22031 Alum]

The only time you will get shafted for being a DO MIGHT be if its down to you vs an MD with comparable stats. Even that is a maybe.

That's not even close to being true. The fact that you think it is, and are dispensing advice, is concerning. Do you have any experience with resident selection??

 

[Dustbowl12]

That's not even close to being true. The fact that you think it is, and are dispensing advice, is concerning. Do you have any experience with resident selection??

Please clarify and verify, I defer to you.

I just don't buy the residency woes, because I see DO match rates being higher than MDs and I see all the AOA programs across many specialties.

 

[Dr.Smexy]

Listen man, MD vs DO is not a big of difference as it used to be. The Top MD schools are head and shoulders ahead of every other medical school in that nation. Just go where you get accepted and score well on boards. People take DO over MD for location quite often, if it was that crippling they wouldn't do that. (meaning they stay with a local DO rather than out of state DO)

The only time you will get shafted for being a DO MIGHT be if its down to you vs an MD with comparable stats. Even that is a maybe.

DOs have had higher match rates than MDs for years, the largest sim lab and teaching hospital both belong to DO schools. GME is being merged. Te point is, get your scores and letters, letters of rec matter not your letters after the name

Your post is misinformed and not reflective of the current reality but if it makes you sleep better at night, keep on believing brother.

 

[Dr.Smexy]

Please clarify and verify, I defer to you.

I just don't buy the residency woes, because I see DO match rates being higher than MDs and I see all the AOA programs across many specialties.

It is indeed very impressive of DO schools to have their high match rate with the majority matching in primary care community programs...

 

[Dustbowl12]

It is indeed very impressive of DO schools to have their high match rate with the majority matching in primary care community programs...

nothing wrong with primary care...pretty arrogant to think otherwise

 

[IslandStyle808]

DOs have had higher match rates than MDs for years, the largest sim lab and teaching hospital both belong to DO schools. GME is being merged. Te point is, get your scores and letters, letters of rec matter not your letters after the name

You might need to clarify what you mean here.

 

[22031 Alum]

Please clarify and verify, I defer to you.

I just don't buy the residency woes, because I see DO match rates being higher than MDs and I see all the AOA programs across many specialties.

Well, AOA programs aren't going to be exclusively DO much longer. Thinking optimistically, those programs will continue to show preference to DOs, which will be a benefit.

But if you apply that same logic -preferences stay the same - the ACGME programs that show preference to MDs will keep doing that. I've seen applications from DOs get filtered out in every application cycle I've been involved in as a resident and as faculty- stats have never been brought into it. "Bias" is the easiest way to describe it (though it doesn't paint the whole picture). I don't see why that would suddenly change with the merger. So I can't see this being world-shaking as far as which programs DOs have access to.

If you're pessimistic, it could be concerning that programs formerly open only to DOs will start taking more and more MDs. For example, take Ortho. It's quite competitive and there will definitely be MD students applying to any and every program they can. They will happily fulfill any additional requirements, like auditions or OMM training, which may decrease their odds of going unmatched or matching into a backup specialty. If the DO-preference fades at those programs, that ends up being an effective loss of spots for DO applicants - especially in more competitive specialties where the AOA match was some applicants' only shot.

 

[Dr.Smexy]

nothing wrong with primary care...pretty arrogant to think otherwise

Never say that there is anything wrong with primary care...pretty arrogant of you to put words in my mouth. Matching difficulty for primary care especially for unknown community programs? Everyone knows the answer to that

 

[Dustbowl12]

Well, AOA programs aren't going to be exclusively DO much longer. Thinking optimistically, those programs will continue to show preference to DOs, which will be a benefit.

But if you apply that same logic -preferences stay the same - the ACGME programs that show preference to MDs will keep doing that. I've seen applications from DOs get filtered out in every application cycle I've been involved in as a resident and as faculty- stats have never been brought into it. "Bias" is the easiest way to describe it (though it doesn't paint the whole picture). I don't see why that would suddenly change with the merger. So I can't see this being world-shaking as far as which programs DOs have access to.

If you're pessimistic, it could be concerning that programs formerly open only to DOs will start taking more and more MDs. For example, take Ortho. It's quite competitive and there will definitely be MD students applying to any and every program they can. They will happily fulfill any additional requirements, like auditions or OMM training, which may decrease their odds of going unmatched or matching into a backup specialty. If the DO-preference fades at those programs, that ends up being an effective loss of spots for DO applicants - especially in more competitive specialties where the AOA match was some applicants' only shot.

Thank you for insight are probably right. I see it as the former, where DO friendly will remain DO friendly, and MD friendly will remain MD friendly.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Well, AOA programs aren't going to be exclusively DO much longer. Thinking optimistically, those programs will continue to show preference to DOs, which will be a benefit.

But if you apply that same logic -preferences stay the same - the ACGME programs that show preference to MDs will keep doing that. I've seen applications from DOs get filtered out in every application cycle I've been involved in as a resident and as faculty- stats have never been brought into it. "Bias" is the easiest way to describe it (though it doesn't paint the whole picture). I don't see why that would suddenly change with the merger. So I can't see this being world-shaking as far as which programs DOs have access to.

If you're pessimistic, it could be concerning that programs formerly open only to DOs will start taking more and more MDs. For example, take Ortho. It's quite competitive and there will definitely be MD students applying to any and every program they can. They will happily fulfill any additional requirements, like auditions or OMM training, which may decrease their odds of going unmatched or matching into a backup specialty. If the DO-preference fades at those programs, that ends up being an effective loss of spots for DO applicants - especially in more competitive specialties where the AOA match was some applicants' only shot.

What's the reason for the DO filter?

 

[Dustbowl12]

Never say that there is anything wrong with primary care...pretty arrogant of you to put words in my mouth. Matching difficulty for primary care especially for unknown community programs? Everyone knows the answer to that

Sorry to assume, some value community based medicine in CHCs or FQHCs, some don't. Feel free to maintain whatever you wish though

 

[Dr.Smexy]

What's the reason for the DO filter?

More than enough of highly qualified MD applicants to choose from I would think.

 

[22031 Alum]

Thank you for insight are probably right. I see it as the former, where DO friendly will remain DO friendly, and MD friendly will remain MD friendly.

So at best, things stay the same. I also forgot to mention the loss of residency spots as programs close in the face of new accreditation requirements. Hopefully there will not be many.

 

[IslandStyle808]

More than enough of highly qualified MD applicants to choose from I would think.

Feels like taking a DO would be like opening pandora's box in that situation (not sure what you are getting if you are not familiar with it).

 

[Dustbowl12]

So at best, things stay the same. I also forgot to mention the loss of residency spots as programs close in the face of new accreditation requirements. Hopefully there will not be many.

I think a long term gain is DO profession getting stronger overall due to getting stronger ACGME training all around...And it makes sense that some programs toss DOs out, its an easy way to narrow the pool down when you have so many qualified MD applicants

 

[Dr.Smexy]

Feels like taking a DO would be like opening pandora's box in that situation (not sure what you are getting if you are not familiar with it).

I don't even know what will happen among the MD crowd if a DO match dermatology at Mass General or Plastic Surgery at Standford...scary thought ,even though it won't happen for any foreseeable future, I tell ya!

 

[Dr. Death]

I don't even know what will happen among the MD crowd if a DO match dermatology at Mass General or Plastic Surgery at Standford...scary thought ,even though it won't happen for any foreseeable future, I tell ya!

Probably the country would tear itself apart, physicians would stop helping patients altogether, people going on hunger strikes and parents taking their children to other hospitals. It would be such a spectacle that nobody would be able to do their job even if they wanted to. Or maybe not.

 

[Dr.Smexy]

Probably the country would tear itself apart, physicians would stop helping patients altogether, people going on hunger strikes and parents taking their children to other hospitals. It would be such a spectacle that nobody would be able to do their job even if they wanted to. Or maybe not.

Understatement of the century...

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Listen man, MD vs DO is not a big of difference as it used to be. The Top MD schools are head and shoulders ahead of every other medical school in that nation. Just go where you get accepted and score well on boards. People take DO over MD for location quite often, if it was that crippling they wouldn't do that. (meaning they stay with a local DO rather than out of state DO)

The only time you will get shafted for being a DO MIGHT be if its down to you vs an MD with comparable stats. Even that is a maybe.

DOs have had higher match rates than MDs for years, the largest sim lab and teaching hospital both belong to DO schools. GME is being merged. Te point is, get your scores and letters, letters of rec matter not your letters after the name

The bolded is downright false.... I have no idea where you are getting that from? I like your optimism though, maybe a little too optimistic but i think your gist is correct.

 

[Dustbowl12]

The bolded is downright false.... I have no idea where you are getting that from? I like your optimism though, maybe a little too optimistic but i think your gist is correct.

It was my understanding the largest school operated teaching hospital belongs to OSUcom and largest sim to BCOM @ NMSU