what should an unsuccessful dentist do?

[mrlantern]

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I'm again unemployed, this time for four months so far. Out of nine resumes I sent out, I only got one interview, for which I didn't get the job. In the middle of last year, I applied for one oral pathology and two prostho residencies. I didn't hear back from the program directors and I don't think I ever will. This may sound crazy but I also applied to the board of education for a teaching position at nearby high schools back in the fall. ( it's not dentistry but no dental jobs can even compare with their retirement pensions, summer vacations, and benefits plans ) Again, I didn't hear back for an interview.

I have no place to go(work). I have no connections, no recommendations, and my dental school faculty members don't even remember me. I have lots of dental school debt remaining too.

Recently I entertained the thought of returning to school ( law? bs in computer science? RN? ) and getting a different degree and seeing if I can have a legitimate career that way.

But there are risks to this, as I will end up in an extra $200k in school debt. ( almost half a million dollars in debt after considering dental loans )Also, if I choose to do this, I will never be able to return to dentistry because I would probably forget the feel of the handpiece while I'm re-training for another career. And no one would presumably hire a dentist who haven't been practicing for years. So apparently there are some great risks if I am considering changing careers.

I'm asking on this forum because this is almost irreversible once I commit myself to it. I'm a little scared at the thought of 500k in total debt and no one knows how the future might change.

Should I make that one big step and go for a career change anyway?

 

[dentheartthrob]

maybe you need to relocate?

 

[Daurang]

The idea have been repeatedly sugested you move out of your business-unfriendly state called New York. Cali don't count either.

 

[cmcner]

No matter what I would restructure my Federal loans to the income based payment plan if you change fields. This is where you pay 15% of your gross annual income less 150% of the poverty level for 25 years and the rest is forgiven. Unless you're a dentist I don't see you paying back $500,000.

I suggest every current student, or former student with loans read this too:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/18/y...udent.html?_r=1&scp=8&sq=student loans&st=cse

 

[MarkND]

Relocate to a place where you would have more chance of getting employment. Get a SBA loan and open a new practice or buy an existing one. Start a business of your own. You are a dentist and you have a better chance of success in your field than a lawyer. Do you know how many lawyers are out of job or have to settle for something just to earn a paycheck? Or how much even they make? Again, you are a dentist. I can't believe you are even considering the change.

I worked in Corporate America for a few years; have five patents in my name, and did considerably well as a managing scientist. I did all of these before deciding to go to dental school. To me, there is nothing more rewarding than having a skill of your own and being able to be your own boss. 3 out of 4 dentists have their own practice. You worked and schooled yourself for years to be where you are!!! Stay the course and be tough...

Good luck to you!

 

[NAVY DDS 2010]

Why is it that you refuse to move. you continually claim you cannot relocate. WHY? It sounds like you have no choice but to relocate if you want to be a dentist - which based on past posts isn't really what you seem you want to do. If you want to be a dentist, quit your whining and do something about it. MOVE!!! There are plenty of places where there is a major need for dentists. now, it may not be ideal locations, but if you move to these places for 5-10 yrs, pay off your debt, get more experience under your belt, by that point the economy should be in better shape so you can set up a business pretty much anywhere you want.

I think I speak for quite a few people here that it gets tiring reading the same thing from you each time. Nothing is going to change unless you are willing to make sacrifices. It seems there are no opportunities for you where you are, so do something about it and MOVE! People make these sacrifices all the time - even if it means moving away from loved ones for a period of time.

I'm again unemployed, this time for four months so far. Out of nine resumes I sent out, I only got one interview, for which I didn't get the job. In the middle of last year, I applied for one oral pathology and two prostho residencies. I didn't hear back from the program directors and I don't think I ever will. This may sound crazy but I also applied to the board of education for a teaching position at nearby high schools back in the fall. ( it's not dentistry but no dental jobs can even compare with their retirement pensions, summer vacations, and benefits plans ) Again, I didn't hear back for an interview.

I have no place to go(work). I have no connections, no recommendations, and my dental school faculty members don't even remember me. I have lots of dental school debt remaining too.

Recently I entertained the thought of returning to school ( law? bs in computer science? RN? ) and getting a different degree and seeing if I can have a legitimate career that way.

But there are risks to this, as I will end up in an extra $200k in school debt. ( almost half a million dollars in debt after considering dental loans )Also, if I choose to do this, I will never be able to return to dentistry because I would probably forget the feel of the handpiece while I'm re-training for another career. And no one would presumably hire a dentist who haven't been practicing for years. So apparently there are some great risks if I am considering changing careers.

I'm asking on this forum because this is almost irreversible once I commit myself to it. I'm a little scared at the thought of 500k in total debt and no one knows how the future might change.

Should I make that one big step and go for a career change anyway?

 

[dentstd]

I'm again unemployed, this time for four months so far. Out of nine resumes I sent out, I only got one interview, for which I didn't get the job. In the middle of last year, I applied for one oral pathology and two prostho residencies. I didn't hear back from the program directors and I don't think I ever will. This may sound crazy but I also applied to the board of education for a teaching position at nearby high schools back in the fall. ( it's not dentistry but no dental jobs can even compare with their retirement pensions, summer vacations, and benefits plans ) Again, I didn't hear back for an interview.

I have no place to go(work). I have no connections, no recommendations, and my dental school faculty members don't even remember me. I have lots of dental school debt remaining too.

Recently I entertained the thought of returning to school ( law? bs in computer science? RN? ) and getting a different degree and seeing if I can have a legitimate career that way.

But there are risks to this, as I will end up in an extra $200k in school debt. ( almost half a million dollars in debt after considering dental loans )Also, if I choose to do this, I will never be able to return to dentistry because I would probably forget the feel of the handpiece while I'm re-training for another career. And no one would presumably hire a dentist who haven't been practicing for years. So apparently there are some great risks if I am considering changing careers.

I'm asking on this forum because this is almost irreversible once I commit myself to it. I'm a little scared at the thought of 500k in total debt and no one knows how the future might change.

Should I make that one big step and go for a career change anyway?

You're not an unsuccessful dentist. You're a passive dentist. You lack the initiative to make major moves in your life. You shouldn't be looking for work. You should be looking for ways to start your own clinic. Make it happen.

 

[mrlantern]

Why is it that you refuse to move. you continually claim you cannot relocate.

Well I did try applying to a job that was out of state, in NJ. The problem was they wanted three recommendations and there were at least 25 other dentists applying for the same job, as I heard from their dental dept.

 

[mrlantern]

You're not an unsuccessful dentist. You're a passive dentist. You lack the initiative to make major moves in your life. You shouldn't be looking for work. You should be looking for ways to start your own clinic. Make it happen.

At the moment I'm too inexperienced to even consider opening an office. I also always wanted to do a prostho residency before opening a clinic but I got rejected from the programs I applied to.

 

[lphiewok]

maybe apply for federal dentist jobs?

 

[OceanDMD]

Airforce. Navy. Chain/cattle call practice (if you have a pulse, you'll probably get hired).

 

[dentstd]

At the moment I'm too inexperienced to even consider opening an office. I also always wanted to do a prostho residency before opening a clinic but I got rejected from the programs I applied to.

Throughout history, people with no experience have dropped out of high school or college and started billion dollar companies. NO ONE opening an dental office from scratch has experience doing so, but they do it anyway and they're able to turn it into a success (because it's dentistry! We have one of the highest success rates for new businesses.)

But I'm not going to interfere with your own wallowing in self-pity. The problem is you, but you prefer to deter the problem by considering further schooling. In a few years you'll come to face the same situation you face today. Best case scenario you'll have to open a pros practice. But when the time comes, you'll want to go to law school.

 

[jay47]

I'm again unemployed, this time for four months so far. Out of nine resumes I sent out, I only got one interview, for which I didn't get the job. In the middle of last year, I applied for one oral pathology and two prostho residencies. I didn't hear back from the program directors and I don't think I ever will. This may sound crazy but I also applied to the board of education for a teaching position at nearby high schools back in the fall. ( it's not dentistry but no dental jobs can even compare with their retirement pensions, summer vacations, and benefits plans ) Again, I didn't hear back for an interview.

I have no place to go(work). I have no connections, no recommendations, and my dental school faculty members don't even remember me. I have lots of dental school debt remaining too.

Recently I entertained the thought of returning to school ( law? bs in computer science? RN? ) and getting a different degree and seeing if I can have a legitimate career that way.

But there are risks to this, as I will end up in an extra $200k in school debt. ( almost half a million dollars in debt after considering dental loans )Also, if I choose to do this, I will never be able to return to dentistry because I would probably forget the feel of the handpiece while I'm re-training for another career. And no one would presumably hire a dentist who haven't been practicing for years. So apparently there are some great risks if I am considering changing careers.

I'm asking on this forum because this is almost irreversible once I commit myself to it. I'm a little scared at the thought of 500k in total debt and no one knows how the future might change.

Should I make that one big step and go for a career change anyway?

The answer my friend, is in the last frontier (aka- Alaska). With half a million in debt, you cannot afford NOT to be a dentist with a serious salary.

 

[dr37]

Dude..you have a DDS degree and you are complaining about earning a life and thinking to be comp scientist or RN..............

If you can not make money being a dentist, how will you be able to make it by being a nurse..(again no offense to nurses..but i am just trying to open this guy's eyes)

Man, Come on grow up..if one job did not select you or three residencies did n't call you..is it the end of the world..

CA to NYC..Up MICHIGAN to TEXAS... you have only one job in NJ and 3 residencies in whole of AMERICA...Man..grow up..

Move to inner NY, Maine, NH, Vermont, PA..there are thousands of places to go..YOU NEED TO MAKE AN INiTIATIVE AND GET GOING.. make money and pay your debt..

I still wonder that some one as well qualified as a Dentist needs to go for a career change..just because there are no opportunities..

Good luck.

 

[Drabuisa]

You need to really be more aggressive. One application in NJ does not really sound like you are trying to win this battle bro. If I was in your position, I would be sending out applications all over the country, making phone calls, writing emails, contacting old classmates, anything to get a job.

You sound like you make one feeble attempt at getting a job and if it doesn't go perfectly, you curl up in a ball and cry.

I'm not trying to put you down, but you gotta go hard in times like this. Don't rest until you get a job.....as a dentist.

 

[Demeter]

Sending out 5 applications just doesn't cut it.
When I graduated from my residency program, I probably sent out emails to a hundred offices. I probably got 15 interviews and out of those a handful of potential good associate positions became available.

 

[DrReo]

Sending out 5 applications just doesn't cut it.
When I graduated from my residency program, I probably sent out emails to a hundred offices. I probably got 15 interviews and out of those a handful of potential good associate positions became available.

How did you go about selecting offices for the consideration?

 

[mrlantern]

You need to really be more aggressive. One application in NJ does not really sound like you are trying to win this battle bro. If I was in your position, I would be sending out applications all over the country, making phone calls, writing emails, contacting old classmates, anything to get a job.

The job in NJ offered only 96k/yr and was a nonprofit organization. I thought it would be easy to get until they told me I would eventually need to submit recommendations letters. I don't have any contacts and I'm unable to get in touch with any of my ex-classmates.

 

[fxteef]

. . . I'm unable to get in touch with any of my ex-classmates.

Try a phone book, google search, facebook. . .there are many ways to find old contacts. I'm sorry you won't relocate--here in Missouri there are hundreds of dentists looking to sell their practices and hire associates. Any of the bigger cities in the midwest would be better than where you are (they have public transportation too!)

 

[Primary]

Ugh.

It makes me upset to read that anyone with my degree feels this way.
The problem you have has nothing to do with our career field but rather your attitude.

Contact a headhunter/dental job placement recruiter.

Contact the military.

Contact the government.

These are the easy routes for those that don't do the MOST obvious thing.

MARKET YOURSELF.
You have spent the better part of your adult life gaining a highly sought after, professionally trained skill set that is universally marketable.

Get in the game.

Formulate a business plan. Detailed. Refi your loans so they are manageable. Then go and do the demographic research and find WHERE you want to practice. Scope out available office spaces. Figure out how much it is going to cost to build-out the practice you envision for yourself.
Go to the local bank WITH YOUR DETAILED PLAN and SELL IT.

Nothing is ever handed to us. We have to EARN it. But I can guarantee you that a ton of truly unemployed/underemployed unskilled laborers that have the brass ones to take a risk would trade places with you any day of the week.

Stop placing self-imposed barriers to your success (I can't move, etc.) on yourself and utilize your assets....your education.

Stop hiding. Stop being fearful. Practice your profession.

Dental school is the FIRST step. The next step is being a businessman/woman. Accept this and get working.

Attack it like you did getting in to school and school itself.

If you have no family restrictions ie. a wife/husband, children, etc. you simply have no excuse.
And even in those circumstances, I would assume the motivation to put food on the table for those dependents would be enough to get you in the game.

Time to put on the bigboy pants. 🙂

 

[mrlantern]

Contact a headhunter/dental job placement recruiter.

This is probably going to sound stupid to anyone hearing it. What should I do if an employer asks for recommendations or references? I've already seen one or two instances of it and I'm fearing other employers might ask for the same. This is the worst problem I'm having and I'm thinking it might set me back a lot. I left my previous employers because of uncooperative assistants and issues regarding productions. With almost every employer I left, they would usually not give me my last paycheck and so I developed the habit of quitting without leaving any advanced notices. I don't know if they treat every associate this way but common sense tells me that it's best not to get in touch with them for any reason. And my former dental professors do not remember me clearly and are giving me cold shoulders. So I don't have any sources of recommendations or references except for a lukewarm dean's letter that probably doesn't even qualify. Even until last year, many places would never even ask for references but, from my experience, this is becoming increasingly a common requirement. I want to start all over again with a clean reputation. What should I do?

 

[mrlantern]

or am I now screwed so much that it probably wouldn't make a difference as to whether I stay a dentist or move onto a different career?

 

[mike3kgt]

This is probably going to sound stupid to anyone hearing it. What should I do if an employer asks for recommendations or references? I've already seen one or two instances of it and I'm fearing other employers might ask for the same. This is the worst problem I'm having and I'm thinking it might set me back a lot. I left my previous employers because of uncooperative assistants and issues regarding productions. With almost every employer I left, they would usually not give me my last paycheck and so I developed the habit of quitting without leaving any advanced notices. I don't know if they treat every associate this way but common sense tells me that it's best not to get in touch with them for any reason. And my former dental professors do not remember me clearly and are giving me cold shoulders. So I don't have any sources of recommendations or references except for a lukewarm dean's letter that probably doesn't even qualify. Even until last year, many places would never even ask for references but, from my experience, this is becoming increasingly a common requirement. I want to start all over again with a clean reputation. What should I do?

I would ask for references in hiring, but wound understand in many circumstances as I know personally what it is like in some of these situations, especially corporate dental offices. Get references from former professors or colleagues if you do not wish to have job references.

I promise you, however, if you listed on your resume that you have worked for 5 different places and have the same stories for each reason why you cannot get references, then I would assume that the problem is not with the referencers as maybe it lies with the referencee.

Employers, however, cannot contact your former employees without given permission to (not sure about NY state law, but it is other places), so unless you give them explicit permission to contact but list them as former employment under your CE, you should be OK.

Why don't you take the public health, not for profit job. 96k isn't great but man, it's a job and they probably aren't production-or-die mentality.

You could always move out of NYC (that means Hoboken, NJ, long-island, all 5 boroughs, anywhere that is considered NYC proper). We have recommended that for some time now.

 

[mrlantern]

I promise you, however, if you listed on your resume that you have worked for 5 different places and have the same stories for each reason why you cannot get references, then I would assume that the problem is not with the referencers as maybe it lies with the referencee.

Why don't you take the public health, not for profit job. 96k isn't great but man, it's a job and they probably aren't production-or-die mentality.

I don't know what to tell you. Almost everywhere I worked, there was usually an office manager, with a heavy accent, telling me what to do clinically. I get forced through production. Believe me, I'm as motivated as the office managers themselves. But these clinics are always understaffed and not fully supplied. The handpieces often break down, the burrs don't cut, the trays are always slanted and fall off the operatory, etc. And then I'm forced to do two exams while I'm on molar endos, all while the assistants are uncooperative. The typical day production would be something like 8 quads of sc/rp, 5 exams, 2 prophies, 2 surgical exos of 3rds, two crown deliveries, 8 class Is, 4 class IIs, 2 anterior endos, 4 final impressions for removables, two molar pulpectomies, 1 upper/lower denture deliveries, 2 wax rim adjustments. The fillings are usually $30 each, and I never go beyond $800-$1000 in daily production. And the composites are of subpar quality so, unlike in dental school, they are hard to properly do. For my most recent job, I left immediately because their cavitrons were only drooling with water intead of properly spraying, and they wouldn't change their xray solutions and order more retraction cords. I couldn't do my job so I left, and they said of how bad of a dentist I am and wouldn't give me last pay.

By the way, I would love a nonprofit job except I'm assuming they are harder to get because organizations tend to have a human resources dept and they don't hire easily and quickly like some private offices do. For me it's never solely about the income. I don't mind earning less if I am happy and comfortable with the work.

 

[jfitzpat]

I don't know what to tell you. Almost everywhere I worked, there was usually an office manager, with a heavy accent, telling me what to do clinically.

Don't take this the wrong way as I don't know you personally, but have you considered that maybe the problem is you and not them. I'm always suspicious when someone has a bunch of terrible jobs in a row. You can't help but think maybe they aren't bad employers, but that you are a bad employee...just noticed that mike3kgt said the same thing above.

 

[DrReo]

I don't know what to tell you. Almost everywhere I worked, there was usually an office manager, with a heavy accent, telling me what to do clinically. I get forced through production. Believe me, I'm as motivated as the office managers themselves. But these clinics are always understaffed and not fully supplied. The handpieces often break down, the burrs don't cut, the trays are always slanted and fall off the operatory, etc. And then I'm forced to do two exams while I'm on molar endos, all while the assistants are uncooperative. The typical day production would be something like 8 quads of sc/rp, 5 exams, 2 prophies, 2 surgical exos of 3rds, two crown deliveries, 8 class Is, 4 class IIs, 2 anterior endos, 4 final impressions for removables, two molar pulpectomies, 1 upper/lower denture deliveries, 2 wax rim adjustments. The fillings are usually $30 each, and I never go beyond $800-$1000 in daily production. And the composites are of subpar quality so, unlike in dental school, they are hard to properly do. For my most recent job, I left immediately because their cavitrons were only drooling with water intead of properly spraying, and they wouldn't change their xray solutions and order more retraction cords. I couldn't do my job so I left, and they said of how bad of a dentist I am and wouldn't give me last pay.

By the way, I would love a nonprofit job except I'm assuming they are harder to get because organizations tend to have a human resources dept and they don't hire easily and quickly like some private offices do. For me it's never solely about the income. I don't mind earning less if I am happy and comfortable with the work.

You know, this would more than likely not happen in the midwest 😀

 

[tinman831]

or am I now screwed so much that it probably wouldn't make a difference as to whether I stay a dentist or move onto a different career?

With the motivation that you have, you wouldn't cut it in any career you choose. No offense, but dentists are in need, even in this economy. You need to go put your name out there. A job isn't going to fall into your lap. Be more aggressive and send those resume's out. Even if the office isn't hiring, give them an application and just maybe, they might consider expanding their office by one extra associate. Who knows...

 

[xhamburgersamx]

I don't know what to tell you. Almost everywhere I worked, there was usually an office manager, with a heavy accent, telling me what to do clinically. I get forced through production. Believe me, I'm as motivated as the office managers themselves. But these clinics are always understaffed and not fully supplied. The handpieces often break down, the burrs don't cut, the trays are always slanted and fall off the operatory, etc. And then I'm forced to do two exams while I'm on molar endos, all while the assistants are uncooperative. The typical day production would be something like 8 quads of sc/rp, 5 exams, 2 prophies, 2 surgical exos of 3rds, two crown deliveries, 8 class Is, 4 class IIs, 2 anterior endos, 4 final impressions for removables, two molar pulpectomies, 1 upper/lower denture deliveries, 2 wax rim adjustments. The fillings are usually $30 each, and I never go beyond $800-$1000 in daily production. And the composites are of subpar quality so, unlike in dental school, they are hard to properly do. For my most recent job, I left immediately because their cavitrons were only drooling with water intead of properly spraying, and they wouldn't change their xray solutions and order more retraction cords. I couldn't do my job so I left, and they said of how bad of a dentist I am and wouldn't give me last pay.

By the way, I would love a nonprofit job except I'm assuming they are harder to get because organizations tend to have a human resources dept and they don't hire easily and quickly like some private offices do. For me it's never solely about the income. I don't mind earning less if I am happy and comfortable with the work.

8 quads of sc/rp in other parts of the US is avg ~$300 x 8 = 2400 of production alone..sorry to burst your bubble but get the heck out of whereever you are and try the mid west, down south or west

 

[VCUDDS]

mrlantern, you know i was in the same situation you are at right now, worked near buffalo in 3 different practices, 90% medicaid/fedelis pt's, production driven practice. got burned out really quickly bec of the volume, looked at all my options in the area and there were all similiar bec of pt population, so guess what!....i moved the heck out of there and did not regert it one bit.
If you go back and read all the previous posts on this thread you will notice every single one of them is asking you to leave and you keep dodging the question and go back to complaining about the quality of dentistry and pts in NYC, i think you are stuck in neutral there buddy, so get your bearings straightened out and either:
A- move out
B- find a job in public health or local hospital (it's not as hard as you are making it seem, talk to the right people on staff and things will happen, no one will say no right away, and references are only one part of the application process)

 

[MXDenty77]

Mrlantern I am in a motivation and leadership class right now and read an article that instantly made me think of you. It's by Barry M. Staw, the title is "Organizational psychology and the pursuit of the happy/productive worker". I t may help you gain a valuable perspective that will help because I have to tell you it sounds like your outlook on things is your biggest enemy right now. Do whatever you can to change that. Even if you move out of the saturated area I would guess you will take the extra baggage (your outlook on possibilities) you have accumulated in NYC with you anywhere you go. Good Luck and really, check out the article, its very informative.

 

[mike3kgt]

You know, this would more than likely not happen in the midwest 😀

Actually, I can personally attest that these things DO happen in the midwest.

I have worked in places where handpieces aren't running well, things falling off of counters, irritable assistants, overly aggressive office managers, regional managers, etc. I managed to get through it, do well in that model, but of course, had enough physically and emotionally very quickly and had to get out.

----

"The typical day production would be something like 8 quads of sc/rp, 5 exams, 2 prophies, 2 surgical exos of 3rds, two crown deliveries, 8 class Is, 4 class IIs, 2 anterior endos, 4 final impressions for removables, two molar pulpectomies, 1 upper/lower denture deliveries, 2 wax rim adjustments."

A big portion of mrlantern's problem is the low reimbursement rates as if I did a day's worth of procedures like that, it'd look something more like this (assuming ONLY OHIO MEDICAID FEE STRUCTURE):

8 quads of SRP (srp is not reimburse, so assume SRP = difficult prophy): $34.13 x 8 = $273.04

5 exams (assume comp exam w/ x-rays): $26.35 (0150) x 5 + BWX (0274) $20.00 x 5 + PANO (0330) $46.32 x 5 = $465.35

2 prophies: $34.13 x2 = $68.26

2 surgical ext (no surgicals, only "simple", assuming erupted 3rd): 52.45 x 2 = $104.9

2 crown deliveries: $0 production

8 class Is (composite): $51.21 x 8 = $409.68

4 class Is (composite): $63.49 x 4 = $253.96

2 anterior RCTs: $247.63 x 2 = 495.26

4 imp for removables (assume dentures, RPDs are higher fee): $400 x 4 = $1600

2 molar pulpotomy (primary tooth assume? if pulpectomy = $0 fee): $63.74 x 2 = $127.48

1 denture delivery = $0 production

2 occlusion rims = $0 production

Total daily production on medicaid fee structure in Ohio = $3,797.93

----


mrlantern, I wouldn't have actually taken the time to write this up if I didn't think you were truly (albeit partially your own fault) being screwed by your situation. You have the facts stacked against you, if you were doing your EXACT same procedures in an office outside of NYC, you would have produced $3,797.93. Your take home gross pay for the day (assuming on a low end reimbursement rate 25% of production) = $949.48

These figures are also based upon an old fee structure from over a year ago, but is merely for reference.

Take a map of the United States, measure approximately 200 miles radius around NYC and move outside of that circle. Heck, practicing dentistry in the Atlantic ocean would be better these days than where you have been working.

 

[VCUDDS]

ok so to add to the previous post.....i'm assuming medicaid fees are the same everywhere in NY. if i remember correctly and to compare notes with Mike's ohio fees, mrlantern, is either not being truthful about the numbers or he is being screwed over by the office when reporting productions.
most of the fees listed are actually higher in NY so if anything, production should be higher than 4000k for that typical day.
Now it's been a years since i've worked in ny, so fees could have changed, but for the most part he should be making as much as Mike have suggested for Ohio......not bad IMO, stressfull but not bad.

 

[anschutz1913]

Why do you guys continually try to help someone who does not want to help themselves?

 

[mrlantern]

ok so to add to the previous post.....i'm assuming medicaid fees are the same everywhere in NY. if i remember correctly and to compare notes with Mike's ohio fees, mrlantern, is either not being truthful about the numbers or he is being screwed over by the office when reporting productions.
most of the fees listed are actually higher in NY so if anything, production should be higher than 4000k for that typical day.

I mentioned that these were insurance-based offices. Never did I say they were limited to Medicaid.

I agree that regular NYS Medicaid fees are good but, around here, they really aren't common. Instead the Medicaid patients here tend to have Doral and Metroplus, which are variants of Medicaid that pay half of the regular listed fees. And the bulk of patients I saw had union insurances including CSEA, SEIU, 32BJ, PBA, UFT, L-XXX or L-XXXX plans, Aetna DMO, some strange DMO plans made by local law firms for their employees, that's all I can remember for now. All of these pay around $30 for fillings ( yes, two surfaces. Some won't let you bill for 3 or 4 surfaces for posteriors, not that it makes a big difference ) and exos. ( simple ones are cheaper ) I've seen crowns and molar endos reimbursed for as low as $275.

Anyway let's just put this thread to rest, and I appreciate all the help. I'll come up with a plan and hopefully make a normal living.

 

[MarkND]

Anyway let's just put this thread to rest, and I appreciate all the help. I'll come up with a plan and hopefully make a normal living.

You've got the DDS; I've got the brain; Let's make lots of money!!!!!! 😀

well, this is how it goes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuHIRrt5lCI

 

[dentalWorks]

I am a computer science person trying to get into dental school.

You have a DDS/DMD degree and you think you should get a bs in computer science (or law) to obtain a job?

I don't wanna sound rude here, but if you can't get a job as a DDS... then you WILL NEVER land a job as a computer science professional. Let me explain: when I finish my bs in computer science in 2004, I sent my monster resume to... (I am not exaggerating here) 358 positions in about 6 months times. I only landed about 50-ish interviews and ONLY 1 JOB OFFER lmao. Thats how hard landing a position in I.T is these days ESSPECIALLY If your straight out of college and have zero work experience. By the way, that was 6 years ago, today I hear its alot worse.

Trust me, 9 resumes is nothing, I used to sit home and sent 4-5 resumes a night and months straight. You gotta try harder, even start sending your resume to out side locations. Apply to rural areas, even if they are 1-2 hours away from you, you'll make a tone of $$ there. Trust me, a person with a DDS degree in the united states (or canada) should NOT be jobless for more than 2-3 weeks.

Good luck

 

[NAVY DDS 2010]

I just did a search for dental recruiters. I was overwhelmed by how many agencies there are for finding job openings. You might not make as much money going through a recruitign agency, but you should be able to land a job through one. Send them your CV and let them do the work for you.

 

[beijingdds]

Actually, I can personally attest that these things DO happen in the midwest.

I have worked in places where handpieces aren't running well, things falling off of counters, irritable assistants, overly aggressive office managers, regional managers, etc. I managed to get through it, do well in that model, but of course, had enough physically and emotionally very quickly and had to get out.

----

"The typical day production would be something like 8 quads of sc/rp, 5 exams, 2 prophies, 2 surgical exos of 3rds, two crown deliveries, 8 class Is, 4 class IIs, 2 anterior endos, 4 final impressions for removables, two molar pulpectomies, 1 upper/lower denture deliveries, 2 wax rim adjustments."

A big portion of mrlantern's problem is the low reimbursement rates as if I did a day's worth of procedures like that, it'd look something more like this (assuming ONLY OHIO MEDICAID FEE STRUCTURE):

8 quads of SRP (srp is not reimburse, so assume SRP = difficult prophy): $34.13 x 8 = $273.04

5 exams (assume comp exam w/ x-rays): $26.35 (0150) x 5 + BWX (0274) $20.00 x 5 + PANO (0330) $46.32 x 5 = $465.35

2 prophies: $34.13 x2 = $68.26

2 surgical ext (no surgicals, only "simple", assuming erupted 3rd): 52.45 x 2 = $104.9

2 crown deliveries: $0 production

8 class Is (composite): $51.21 x 8 = $409.68

4 class Is (composite): $63.49 x 4 = $253.96

2 anterior RCTs: $247.63 x 2 = 495.26

4 imp for removables (assume dentures, RPDs are higher fee): $400 x 4 = $1600

2 molar pulpotomy (primary tooth assume? if pulpectomy = $0 fee): $63.74 x 2 = $127.48

1 denture delivery = $0 production

2 occlusion rims = $0 production

Total daily production on medicaid fee structure in Ohio = $3,797.93

----


mrlantern, I wouldn't have actually taken the time to write this up if I didn't think you were truly (albeit partially your own fault) being screwed by your situation. You have the facts stacked against you, if you were doing your EXACT same procedures in an office outside of NYC, you would have produced $3,797.93. Your take home gross pay for the day (assuming on a low end reimbursement rate 25% of production) = $949.48

These figures are also based upon an old fee structure from over a year ago, but is merely for reference.

Take a map of the United States, measure approximately 200 miles radius around NYC and move outside of that circle. Heck, practicing dentistry in the Atlantic ocean would be better these days than where you have been working.

I wonder what is the typical and average production for a dentist in LA or NYC makes, at a PPO office.

 

[coolfez]

military which may not pay much but will also give you loan forgiveness.

If you can't find a job, then maybe you don't deserve one. Seriously. Be an adult and look!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you obviously know how to use the internet if you are posting on here.

 

[JonTx2010]

Man- the glass is always half-empty with you!!! How about moving to an under-served area??? US Military (might be good for you, lots of supervision / resources available to you)???? Getting in with a senior, experienced dentist who is willing to mentor you and perhaps give you a shot at an established practice?? Anyway, random thoughts. Perhaps the real issue is confidence, or perhaps some other emotional issue?? Ever think of seeing a counselor? Even a "life coach" might help....
Wish you well!

 

[DentinBond]

Just came across this post as there was a new reply... Hope I'm not so late that your issue is decided already.

Many replies were laden with strong emotional reactions; hopefully they were meant in the spirit of motivating you. Still, overall I'd prefer a non-anonymous network where each member states precisely who they are; one among many advantages of that system is that the level of discourse tends to be more polite and supportive. In any event:

Being objective, one can say that there are "jobs" and circumstances that vary a great deal, some opportunities are far better than others. Yet the key is how we respond to the circumstances that we encounter. Recognizing what is in our control, what is in our influence, and what is totally beyond our control and influence is key.

Your responses to jobs that fail to meet your ethical and clinical standards have been fatalistic- letting the world happen to you more than you happening to the world. In any field of endeavor, you would do well to change this. However I also commend you for not giving in to ethical and other compromises. I believe that you can start your own practice if you wish to. The advantage is of course that you can practice dentistry according to your own standards and vision. Many colleagues who entered private practice from the late 60's until now have told me stories of how their neighboring colleagues were tremendously helpful; most of us recognize that our true competition is from vacations and new plasma TV's and failed mortgages, not from each other.

In a nation where there are roughly 160,000 dentists, and up until the economy crashed, we graduated roughly 4,000 dentists per year and retired 6,000, the outlook for a new practice is superb. Even though retirements have been drastically less due to the economy, in a time period from 5 years from now out to about 10, we can expect to see massive retirements by the oldest boomers.

If you wish to remain in dentistry, and I hope you do, please state so in this thread and we can talk strategy in terms of opening an office. Also, as a pre-requisite, I highly HIGHLY (and I almost never use all caps) advise you to read Linchpin, by Seth Godin. The author knows me a bit, I've studied with him on three occasions, and his latest book is exactly, precisely what you need to hear before proceeding in any career.

(If you start a practice, reading his The Purple Cow is required reading as well.)

www.sethgodin.typepad.com

 

[peanutb123]

I am a computer science person trying to get into dental school.

You have a DDS/DMD degree and you think you should get a bs in computer science (or law) to obtain a job?

I don't wanna sound rude here, but if you can't get a job as a DDS... then you WILL NEVER land a job as a computer science professional. Let me explain: when I finish my bs in computer science in 2004, I sent my monster resume to... (I am not exaggerating here) 358 positions in about 6 months times. I only landed about 50-ish interviews and ONLY 1 JOB OFFER lmao. Thats how hard landing a position in I.T is these days ESSPECIALLY If your straight out of college and have zero work experience. By the way, that was 6 years ago, today I hear its alot worse.

Trust me, 9 resumes is nothing, I used to sit home and sent 4-5 resumes a night and months straight. You gotta try harder, even start sending your resume to out side locations. Apply to rural areas, even if they are 1-2 hours away from you, you'll make a tone of $$ there. Trust me, a person with a DDS degree in the united states (or canada) should NOT be jobless for more than 2-3 weeks.

Good luck

+1

I have a perfect GPA in computer science Degree... proficient in almost most of the things used in today's industry except networking... it took me 20 interviews to land a job, but its in a financial industry geared towards IT programming and databases... out of the 20 interviews i have been on some of them were not hiring for $ they want to test me out for a month... wtf... you want me to finish a project and not get paid for it... thats messed up. and some companies even straight out told me that they dont even know why they are interviewing me while letting go off dozens and dozens of people...

3 months after quitting my job in July i have received an email from a coleague telling me that they are getting rid of 18 people on my team and it was a 25 member team 🙁...

so IT IS NO GOOD anymore its not the year 2000 anymore...

Plus if you have experience as you go up in a company and start to make good amount of money you will get laid off. and once you find another job you wont start at the same salary range again...

PS. my friend/colleague was 64 years old... they have laid him off b/c they didnt want to pay for his retirement... and yet the ceo makes over 30 million w/ stock options per year.

 

[DrReo]

PS. my friend/colleague was 64 years old... they have laid him off b/c they didnt want to pay for his retirement... and yet the ceo makes over 30 million w/ stock options per year.

Are you saying he doesn't deserve a large salary and bonus due to taking a massive financial risk? You have no idea what he may have went through to achieve that position. Unfortunately, sometimes the best business move is to fire people.

 

[Cboseak1]

I am a computer science person trying to get into dental school.

You have a DDS/DMD degree and you think you should get a bs in computer science (or law) to obtain a job?

I don't wanna sound rude here, but if you can't get a job as a DDS... then you WILL NEVER land a job as a computer science professional. Let me explain: when I finish my bs in computer science in 2004, I sent my monster resume to... (I am not exaggerating here) 358 positions in about 6 months times. I only landed about 50-ish interviews and ONLY 1 JOB OFFER lmao. Thats how hard landing a position in I.T is these days ESSPECIALLY If your straight out of college and have zero work experience. By the way, that was 6 years ago, today I hear its alot worse.
.

Good luck

I know this thread is old so im assuming the OP has figured it out, but I'm going to respond for the same of other people in the same situation, or people that have wondered what comp sci will get you

I agree I was comp sci, sent my resume to literally over 1000 places in a few months, and was even going to relocate, and ended up only getting interviews for tech support and junior developer positions. The problem with IT is that a degree looks nice, but it's only really preferred. So you end up getting people that have instead of going to school spent 4 years in an internship/getting certs. That end up beating you out. There's nothing regulating someone from being a rockstar in C++ or java, at least with a dds your competition is limited by people that have gone to dental school

 

[yappy]

I think he's pointing out the difficulties found in big business if you find yourself in the lowly position as employee.

You're right – the CEO probobally was the most effective, hardworking, largest producing, talented employee at that company. After all… why else would he be a CEO? /sarcasm.

The bourgeoisie always abuse those who produce/create.

Are you saying he doesn't deserve a large salary and bonus due to taking a massive financial risk? You have no idea what he may have went through to achieve that position. Unfortunately, sometimes the best business move is to fire people.

 

[charlestweed]

The bourgeoisie always abuse those who produce/create.

Then you should go to my native communist country and see how people are treated over there. It is a classless society. Everybody is equal. Everybody works for the government. If you talk trash about your employer (the government), you will be fired…or worse than that…get killed. This was why I escaped this oppress regime and came to the USA for a better life.

Capitalism has made America the greatest country in the world. America is great because there are more people (percentage wise) who think like DrReo. Many successful people are successful because they were willing to take some sort of risk to achieve their success.

 

[yappy]

I'm not saying that anything should be to the extreme of where you come from...
But would you enjoy working for a walmart dentistry along side alot of midlevels where you operate on volume and your pay is a flat hourly rate? It might fit in nicely between the pharmacy and optometrist. There is another side to the bell curve of capitalism - dentists just arnt on it yet.

Capitalism has made America the greatest country in the world. ... Many successful people are successful because they were willing to take some sort of risk to achieve their success.

 

[charlestweed]

I'm not saying that anything should be to the extreme of where you come from...
But would you enjoy working for a walmart dentistry along side alot of midlevels where you operate on volume and your pay is a flat hourly rate? It might fit in nicely between the pharmacy and optometrist.

I chose to work for a dental chain (or what you called a Walmart dentistry) right after I finished my ortho residency because I didn’t want to take risk to set up my own practice. Although the initial wage was very low, I felt very fortunate to have this job…it was a lot better than my old busboy job during high school/college years. I never feel I am being exploited. In fact, working for a chain has given me several great opportunities:

- Improve my clinical skills.
- Paid off the student loans without having to stretch to 30 year repayment period.
- Saved enough $$$ to set up 3 offices…I only borrowed $70k from the bank.
- Learn how to run a business more effectively.
- Learn how to control the overhead more effectively.
- And best of all…. live the American dream.

There is another side to the bell curve of capitalism - dentists just arnt on it yet.

Dentists are definitely on it. For example, it takes an orthodontist less than a minute to diagnose and examine the patient’s dental alignment/occlusion but it takes his ortho assistant 15-30 minutes to do all the hard works on the same patient. This orthodontist only pays the assistant $17-20/hour (the national average salary for ortho RDAs). Based on the average fee of $4800 per ortho case, this orthodontist still makes a lot of money even if he/she pays his assistant $50-75/hour. Do you think the orthodontist (the evil bourgeoisie), in this case, is abusing his assistant?

Another example, an owner GP does nothing and gets 50% of the implant production that is generated by an in-house periodontist. Is this GP unfair? Or is this GP a hero for creating a very good paying job for the periodontist? If I were a periodontist, I wouldn't mind working for this GP.

 

[yappy]

I see that you've done well as an ortho... This is something we can all aspire to and wasn't my point of criticism. I'm not saying the dentist is the bourgeoisie.

In most other professions there is a tendency for the valued skill (in this context the dentist) to be transitioned from a position of power and autonomy to a position of labor.
This is done by saturation of the skill - either by diploma mills, lower entrance requirements, changing laws to include foreign labor, midlevels... etc. This occurs because someone who has little interest in dentistry (or career "X") has capital and thinks they can make money off of it (Wal-Mart was my hypothetical example). They will naturally come to view a professional like a dentist as an expensive pair of hands. The tendency is to then diminish their role and compensation as much as possible in order to achieve maximum profits for those who are running the operation. If they achieve this model they can now operate loss leaders in areas to gain monopoly or more realistically others will do the same and create an oligopoly on the market making it impossible for owners like you to compete.

This may sound extreme but it has happened to many professions. The owner who does this is who I was referring to as the bourgeoisie - not you.

 

[DentinBond]

In most other professions there is a tendency for the valued skill (in this context the dentist) to be transitioned from a position of power and autonomy to a position of labor.

Very well put, Yappy.

There's this utterly ridiculous model:
http://www.e-myth.com/
-where the factory owner (factory in the philosophical sense) hires as many cheap drones as possible and pays them the lowest amount possible to do the work at hand...

-Fun for the factory owners, but no one else.

Then there's this model:

http://sethgodin.typepad.com/files/thelinchpinmanifesto.pdf

"The essence of the problem: The working middle class is suffering. Wages are stagnant; job security is, for many people, a fading memory; and stress is skyrocketing. Nowhere to run, and apparently, nowhere to hide. The cause of the suffering is the desire of organizations to turn employees into replaceable cogs in a vast machine. The easier people are to replace, the less they need to be paid. And so far, workers have been complicit in this commoditization. This is your opportunity. The indispensable employee brings humanity and connection and art to her organization. She is the key player, the one who's difficult to live without, the person you can build something around. You reject whining about the economy and force yourself to acknowledge that the factory job is dead. Instead, you recognize the opportunity of becoming indispensable, highly sought after, and unique. If a Purple Cow is a product that's worth talking about, the indispensable employee—I call her a Linchpin—is a person who's worth finding and keeping."

-Excerpt from Linchpin, Seth Godin

Dentistry is one of those fields where we have a choice between those two radically different business models.

There is, as you say, a race to the bottom when it comes to cheaper. But not every consumer of dental care wants the cheapest- far from it. Many more are looking for connection and certainty, and a practice that provides that in the face of the corporate-interchangeable model that 80%+ of the businesses out there around us provide- such a practice will be successful.

I say to the original poster- start one of those practices or join an existing one. But don't leave dentistry for a field of endeavor where you're even more likely to end up in a factory.