What should I do about slacker pre-med friends?

[SusGob711]

Does anyone have pre-med friends who are just total slackers? I don't understand how they can just cruise along doing mediocre coursework and think they are have a shot of acceptance--and they won't possibly consider a plan B.

I'm not trying to sound arrogant or suggest that I'm perfect but I wish I knew what to say to them to prevent the inevitable heartache down the road. I guess this is what separates the 'men from the boys' but I don't know what to do 😕

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[Neurocentric]

Does anyone have pre-med friends who are just total slackers? I don't understand how they can just cruise along doing mediocre coursework and think they are have a shot of acceptance--and they won't possibly consider a plan B.

I'm not trying to sound arrogant or suggest that I'm perfect but I wish I knew what to say to them to prevent the inevitable heartache down the road. I guess this is what separates the 'men from the boys' but I don't know what to do 😕

Let them do what they want, honestly. They'll learn the hard way that it won't get them into medical school. But really? This just thins out the herd. I'm not saying you have to be a dick and hope that they never get accepted, but we're all pre-meds, and there are limited spots. Do what YOU need to do, and don't worry about them.

 

[red10]

you aren't their mom. It's college and you can't make them get their act together. focus on your own stuff.

Hopefully they get a reality check, but some never do, and they still manage to get into med school. I have a guy friend who has coasted through, putting in minimal effort and not caring and he still got an acceptance.

 

[gettheleadout]

Let them do what they want, honestly. They'll learn the hard way that it won't get them into medical school. But really? This just thins out the herd. I'm not saying you have to be a dick and hope that they never get accepted, but we're all pre-meds, and there are limited spots. Do what YOU need to do, and don't worry about them.

+1 Exactly what I was going to say.

 

[SusGob711]

I figured I'd get these responses, lol...I just needed to hear it from a third party. It just sucks to stand by and watch someone fail who has so much potential. They are so smart...they are just also really dumb, haha. Thanks for my reality check, lol.

 

[indya]

have you tried telling them?

 

[deleted307836]

Don't bother trying to redirect them. If they think they're entitled to an acceptance with mediocre work and lack the foresight to plan ahead and comprehend what they have to do to succeed, then, quite frankly, they'll get what they deserve.

 

[Neurocentric]

I figured I'd get these responses, lol...I just needed to hear it from a third party. It just sucks to stand by and watch someone fail who has so much potential. They are so smart...they are just also really dumb, haha. Thanks for my reality check, lol.

Unfortunately, that's what college does to some people. They love the experience of partying and having fun, and not realizing that they have to do work as well. I'm sure it sucks because they're your friends and all, but you can't babysit them. If they want to screw around, they'll pay for it later. Sometimes you have to let people you know crash and burn and learn the hard way.

 

[aspiringOSTEO]

1

 

[tako]

Let them do what they want -- it's not your job to baby them. They'll learn sooner or later that all of their slacking off won't amount to anything. I've actually had a lot of "pre-med" friends like yours, and they're not so pre-med anymore. What used to be a group of ~10 of us is now down to 2. 😛

 

[OGMD]

I have these friends too. It's funny and sad at the same time. They honestly believe that their 3.0/26 mcat is going to get them into a top school. Like the poster above said, freshman year there were 20-ish of us. I'd say it's down to 5-6. Most of the others went pharm, dent, opt (nothing wrong with these choices at all)

 

[Cleavername]

Does anyone have pre-med friends who are just total slackers? I don't understand how they can just cruise along doing mediocre coursework and think they are have a shot of acceptance--and they won't possibly consider a plan B.

I'm not trying to sound arrogant or suggest that I'm perfect but I wish I knew what to say to them to prevent the inevitable heartache down the road. I guess this is what separates the 'men from the boys' but I don't know what to do 😕

i would personally do nothing, the more they fail the better rest of us will look, the end. this is a dog eat dog world, the nice dog don't survive very long.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

i would personally do nothing, the more they fail the better rest of us will look, the end. this is a dog eat dog world, the nice dog don't survive very long.

How very gunner-like of you.

 

[Led Zep]

I've got slacker friends too, I pay them no mind and keep working as hard as I can for my goals. They day dream and constantly talk as if they're doctors already, but don't show it in their actions, all that counts for naught. I'd rather not daydream, I'd rather make it my reality.

 

[Cleavername]

How very gunner-like of you.

aw plz, i merely say what prob alot of people were thinking 🙂.

its not my fault really that med schools like to look at numbers lol.

 

[DrTroll]

aw plz, i merely say what prob alot of people were thinking 🙂.

its not my fault really that med schools like to look at numbers lol.

So true! I applaud you! 👍

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

aw plz, i merely say what prob alot of people were thinking 🙂.

its not my fault really that med schools like to look at numbers lol.

Nah I think you just went a bit too far when you started talking about us needing them to fail for us to look better. I found that to be an overkill. I will admit those who have a 2.9 and are claiming to be doctors or destined by faith to be and be bitches about it. There is no need to help them. However if you know a nice person who's good and calm but a bit mistaken about the numbers. Helping them out will certainly not hurt you and hell somewhere in life it might help you when that kid asks you to be a partner in his clinic.

 

[DrTroll]

Nah I think you just went a bit too far when you started talking about us needing them to fail for us to look better. I found that to be an overkill. I will admit those who have a 2.9 and are claiming to be doctors or destined by faith to be and be bitches about it. There is no need to help them. However if you know a nice person who's good and calm but a bit mistaken about the numbers. Helping them out will certainly not hurt you and hell somewhere in life it might help you when that kid asks you to be a partner in his clinic.

pre-med with a heart...😱 so rare these days 😀

 

[Cleavername]

Nah I think you just went a bit too far when you started talking about us needing them to fail for us to look better. I found that to be an overkill. I will admit those who have a 2.9 and are claiming to be doctors or destined by faith to be and be bitches about it. There is no need to help them. However if you know a nice person who's good and calm but a bit mistaken about the numbers. Helping them out will certainly not hurt you and hell somewhere in life it might help you when that kid asks you to be a partner in his clinic.

ah now ur thinking far, i like it. do keep in mind thats a risk you are taking with a stranger tho. you are investing in something with a chance of being rewarded with absolutely nothing in return. oh wait, this would mean that you cannot be a nice person without being stupid, or rather the conditions of making possible pointless and fruitless decisions.

Meh, being human is really annoying i tell ya.

 

[sphun65]

I have these friends too. It's funny and sad at the same time. They honestly believe that their 3.0/26 mcat is going to get them into a top school. Like the poster above said, freshman year there were 20-ish of us. I'd say it's down to 5-6. Most of the others went pharm, dent, opt (nothing wrong with these choices at all)

+1.

I run into these people all the time when I'm in a science-related lab (since all pre-meds have to take them, yes). You get into a conversation with them and they tell you how they are only going to apply to Ivy schools and the like.. I just never understood how people take things so lightly, or how they just assume a miracle will occur for them. Sometimes I wonder how many kids actually end up following through with these plans.. How many of them make up the "denied" pool of applicants..

I would also like to call out everyone in this thread who is saying that these awful slackers are their "friends". If they really are your friends you should feel the desire to help them out, no? I would do anything to help get my friends to where they want to be, its not my place in life to make the judgment that they don't deserve to be a doctor.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

ah now ur thinking far, i like it. do keep in mind thats a risk you are taking with a stranger tho. you are investing in something with a chance of being rewarded with absolutely nothing in return. oh wait, this would mean that you cannot be a nice person without being stupid, or rather the conditions of making possible pointless and fruitless decisions.

Meh, being human is really annoying i tell ya.

Life is a risk. Its not an investment because you didn't help him because you wanted a reward. This beckons the question that all social psychology teachers and philosophy teachers ask their students. Is there truly an altruistic action? Why do we do things? Or why we do good in this world? All of which is heavily subjective. Regardless by helping others you do expand your horizons and create alliances. All I can say is being a nice guy and having a lot of friends does help in life.

Being human is annoying now read Dostoevsky. JK read Machiavelli 😛.

 

[Cleavername]

Life is a risk. Its not an investment because you didn't help him because you wanted a reward. However by helping others you do expand your horizons and create alliances. All I can say is being a nice guy and having a lot of friends does help in life.
Being human is annoying now read Tolstoy. JK read Machiavelli 😛.

read it? pffn i am machiavelli foo! jk lol.

 

[Electronegative]

Have your friend join SDN... if you know what I mean.

 

[HealthHare]

These friends of yours are simply fulfilling their societal roles. Not everybody can be at the top, that would be impossible. The majority of society are average to under achievers. Leave them be. You being concerned about their achievement only distracts you from accomplishing your own goals.

 

[indya]

i would personally do nothing, the more they fail the better rest of us will look, the end. this is a dog eat dog world, the nice dog don't survive very long.

in this world, you get jobs and positions with connections. the chance that your friend will take your place in medical school are extremely small (40,000 applicants, 17,000 admits.) You will gain more in the long run by helping them out and befriending them.

on the other hand... if they are really failing, they might not be worth talking to.

 

[VikingLegacy]

To be honest, I would tell them once and only once, point blank, "You guys need to get your act in gear or you're not going to make it. This is not as easy as it sounds."

Then, after that, don't get attached. Odds are, none of them will change anything, and that's okay. My rule #1 in life is that it is impossible to make people change, so don't get attached to the notion.

This is our early twenties. This is when some of us will make it and some of us will not. This is the "sink or swim" period of our lives, and not everyone swims. It's sad, frustrating, sometimes heart-breaking, but it's nature. Not every gazelle is quick enough to outrun the lions.

 

[UrsusHorribilis]

I say this with the full realization that I perpetuate and reinforce these attitudes in my own way, too, but...
Do you guys ever see in various news outlets the notion that the premedical system we have in place is attracting/creating the wrong kind of students? Lack of humanism, compassion, cooperativeness etc. Too much focus on numbers and competition etc. (the NYT LOVES to write about this in various forms/op-eds, but it comes out in many other general interest publications) If any of those writers read SDN they would immediately find unlimited irrefutable proof to support their claims

As for your slacking friends. Some of them are probably actually rockstars who either don't need to study to ace classes (orgo might be time consuming, but it's not exactly rocket science...I'm sure many people can own it without much effort beyond a cursory pre-test cram). A few might just end up being super-duper lucky. Most of them will probably get a reality check. Whether you want to bring this up with them depends on whether they would take your advice to heart or not. Chances are, you have no way to alter their behavior and they just need to learn for themselves (aka let it go). If you have some reason to believe you can actually get through to them and that they would end up being awesome doctors/people because of whatever you might say, then it's trickier...if they are really your friends, you probably have an ethical obligation to have a premed intervention

 

[indya]

Do you guys ever see in various news outlets the notion that the premedical system we have in place is attracting/creating the wrong kind of students? Lack of humanism, compassion, cooperativeness etc. Too much focus on numbers and competition etc. (the NYT LOVES to write about this in various forms/op-eds, but it comes out in many other general interest publications) If any of those writers read SDN they would immediately find unlimited irrefutable proof to support their claims

ya, i have noticed this. it seems pretty true, and the admissions systems reinforces this behavior.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Those who are intelligent are likely to see the world in a depressive realism. Where are those who are less intelligent tend to see the world in a rosy tint. As such its not surprising that most doctors who we can say are usually pretty smart seem to lack compassion and humanism.
Combine that with our selection system which breeds gunners and hermit crab's which want to be MD's because of their parents and you have a situation with many really unfit doctors who should not be working with people at all.
Final point to add.. when you see a lot of people die you're depressed as a result and as such tend to lack interest to be humane as you tend to realize how pitiful things are.

 

[UrsusHorribilis]

Those who are intelligent are likely to see the world in a depressive realism. Where are those who are less intelligent tend to see the world in a rosy tint. As such its not surprising that most doctors who we can say are usually pretty smart seem to lack compassion and humanism.
Combine that with our selection system which breeds gunners and hermit crab's which want to be MD's because of their parents and you have a situation with many really unfit doctors who should not be working with people at all.
Final point to add.. when you see a lot of people die you're depressed as a result and as such tend to lack interest to be humane as you tend to realize how pitiful things are.

I'll agree with your middle point, but not your two outlying ones. For the former, I would say that the claim that smarter people are more pessimistic and, thus, less humane and compassionate is not really a claim that can be backed (or even refuted) in any complete or meaningful way. Personally, I would actually argue that many professions which require superior intelligence--such as most of those in academia--tend to breed individuals who are more invested in humanistic principles and ethics. Scientifically (and I will be the first to say that these studies are so oversimplistic and derivative that they don't really lead to any meaningful conclusions), it's been shown that higher intelligence correlates with characteristics that would be associated with humanism and compassion-- a greater respect for difference, less inclination towards violence, less fear of outsiders etc. That being said, I think this is just an argument that's almost not worth entertaining because even if it's true, it's immutable and thus doesn't really factor into discussions of culturally produced paradigms.

As for the last point, I don't think that dealing with death on a daily basis is necessarily a reason that we should expect doctors to be cold or lack compassion. Death is a universal reality for everybody. Doctors have the unique ability to help pts die in a more complete, meaningful, and holistically healthy (in the sense of spiritual, emotional, pyschosocial health) way. This can/should be as enriching and life-affirming as it can be depressing and painful. Furthermore, I was specifically referring to premeds, rather than doctors. As I am not a physician, I don't feel qualified to articulate what negative premedical qualities do/do not permeate the world of medicine...Also, most of those articles nitpick on how now-a-days premeds are cold, calculating and evil little buggers. I don't know what premeds were like back 40 years ago, but these articles make it seem as though this is a new phenomenon bred by the increasing competition and changing standards (obviously this might just be the media being...the media, but I don't know!)

Edit: Uhhhh...whoa. I just mega-derailed this thread. Apologies.

 

[vitaebellaa]

in this world, you get jobs and positions with connections. the chance that your friend will take your place in medical school are extremely small (40,000 applicants, 17,000 admits.) You will gain more in the long run by helping them out and befriending them.
on the other hand... if they are really failing, they might not be worth talking to.

+1. Yes, it is a competitive world out there, but, these are your friends. It's not your place to tell them they will/will not eventually make it to medical school, but I think it would help them to have someone they (hopefully) trust and respect hit them with a dose reality that they may not get into medical school.

 

[SusGob711]

Thanks for all of the supportive replies. I have definately addressed the situation in a passive-aggressive way but it's hard to be blunt because they are both seniors. They don't have 2-3 years to make up for their slacking (maybe a post-bac at best). Maybe I should just pick them up a couple brochures for PA school (not that PA school isn't a great choice), lol. I guess someone has to represent the majority that doesn't get in 🙁

 

[tweek125]

Staple a Burger King application to their failed test. haha

 

[student1799]

Maybe I should just pick them up a couple brochures for PA school (not that PA school isn't a great choice), lol.

I know you were mostly joking, but the fact is that you can't live your friends' lives for them--they have to figure it out themselves. If they're truly in the dark about their med school chances, a few rejections will fix that pretty quickly. Then they'll have to make some decisions.

There's something else you haven't considered: maybe these people don't really want to be doctors, despite what they say. Yes, the idea might appeal to them in theory, but are they willing to really bust their ***es if that's what's required to make it happen? Maybe not.

When you think about this rationally, you can't really blame them. Medicine asks an ENORMOUS amount from people who want to get into it, and even more to stay in. Not to mention the exorbitant tuition, not getting any sleep for 10 years, very little time off, ...if you put the same amount of effort and drive into any other profession, you'd probably make a lot more money, sooner, and have a better lifestyle. So there's no sense doing this unless it sets your blood on fire.

When you think about it, that 90% of would-be premeds that never make it don't usually end up working at Burger King or jumping off bridges--they usually find perfectly good careers (many in totally unrelated fields) and have nice lives. So you don't have to pity them or try to save them from themselves. Only they can do that.

 

[SusGob711]

When you think about this rationally, you can't really blame them. Medicine asks an ENORMOUS amount from people who want to get into it, and even more to stay in. Not to mention the exorbitant tuition, not getting any sleep for 10 years, very little time off, ...if you put the same amount of effort and drive into any other profession, you'd probably make a lot more money, sooner, and have a better lifestyle. So there's no sense doing this unless it sets your blood on fire.

Thank you for your great advice...very inspiring 👍

 

[Frazier]

...if you put the same amount of effort and drive into any other profession, you'd probably make a lot more money, sooner, and have a better lifestyle.

While this may be the case in certain fields, the average college grad income with only a bachelor's degree is ~43,000/year.

Assuming that the above income is for 40hrs/week worth of work... If the same individual was to work 80hrs/week (in order to "put the same effort and drive" into their own profession) as some high volume physicians do [let's use ortho as an example], the guy would still only make around $107,000/yr [their normal wage plus 40hrs/wk overtime].

$107,000 for the average ~80hr/week college grad
vs.
$395,000-600,000 for the average ~80hr/week ortho surgeon (figure range taken from aamc)

Even though the physician has almost no income through med school/residency, once they are both working -- it wouldn't take long for him to surpass the avg college grad above.

In this hypothetical vacuum, with both individual's set with same effort/drive and lifestyles set to suck at 80/hrs week, the physician still obviously wins.

 

[Procyon]

Tell your friends to read SDN for a few weeks. When they see people who are like, "I got an A-, now what, Caribbean? 😕", they'll get stressed out and work harder. 😉

 

[CompSciMath]

College is what you make of it. Some people just prefer to party it away. Personally, I don't see what is so great about partying, but then again I am a prude who prefers the company of books to most of my peer group. Just think of the lifetime of fulfillment you could achieve if you work hard and go on to become a doctor...then again I might just be naive.

 

[jm192]

Does anyone have pre-med friends who are just total slackers? I don't understand how they can just cruise along doing mediocre coursework and think they are have a shot of acceptance--and they won't possibly consider a plan B.

I'm not trying to sound arrogant or suggest that I'm perfect but I wish I knew what to say to them to prevent the inevitable heartache down the road. I guess this is what separates the 'men from the boys' but I don't know what to do 😕

Keep your mouth shut and let them do their thing.

If they really want to go, they'll put it together. If they don't, they won't. Eventually it'll hit that they have to change their study habits or change majors.

There is nothing YOU can do or say to get through to them. And you'll just come across as that annoying condescending know it all friend.

 

[Ansar]

Staple a Burger King application to their failed test. haha

Would love to see their reaction to that

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

College is what you make of it. Some people just prefer to party it away. Personally, I don't see what is so great about partying, but then again I am a prude who prefers the company of books to most of my peer group. Just think of the lifetime of fulfillment you could achieve if you work hard and go on to become a doctor...then again I might just be naive.

And why do you want to be in a service orientated field again?
But yah I personally enjoy just being with a few of my good friends rather then going out and partying. However preferring books to people is eccentric to say the least.

 

[Frazier]

And why do you want to be in a service orientated field again?
But yah I personally enjoy just being with a few of my good friends rather then going out and partying. However preferring books to people is eccentric to say the least.

Yea, but I imagine one would at first glance think that someone who prefers dead people over alive people is quite eccentric too...

But people like that have their own freakin' specialty. Enter pathology. 😉

 

[CompSciMath]

I could just be bad at making friends. It's not that I do not want to help people. I'm always willing to help anyone with math/computer issues even if I hate their guts. I just don't see the point of associating with people who you most likely will not meet after you finish your undergrad and move off somewhere else (this probably stems from what happened with my high school friends).

 

[Dannyw]

I'm a bit older than most of my classmates so I don't really look to make many friends. However, it's amusing to overhear people with terrible stats thinking they're good enough to apply to top schools

I can't count how many times I've heard someone say "ehhh UMass is ok, I want to go to Harvard or BU"-- haha good luck.

 

[Janieve]

My vote would be: show them opcn and Tompi's threads and watch the horror unfold on their faces.

Or just show them this.

 

[SusGob711]

Staple a Burger King application to their failed test. haha

LMAO!!! Now that is my kind of passive aggressive! 😀

 

[student1799]

While this may be the case in certain fields, the average college grad income with only a bachelor's degree is ~43,000/year.

Assuming that the above income is for 40hrs/week worth of work... If the same individual was to work 80hrs/week (in order to "put the same effort and drive" into their own profession) as some high volume physicians do [let's use ortho as an example], the guy would still only make around $107,000/yr [their normal wage plus 40hrs/wk overtime].

$107,000 for the average ~80hr/week college grad
vs.
$395,000-600,000 for the average ~80hr/week ortho surgeon (figure range taken from aamc)

Even though the physician has almost no income through med school/residency, once they are both working -- it wouldn't take long for him to surpass the avg college grad above.

In this hypothetical vacuum, with both individual's set with same effort/drive and lifestyles set to suck at 80/hrs week, the physician still obviously wins.

I said PROFESSION--not just a job. In other words, something like business, consulting, or law, not working as an assistant clerk in the accounting department at Dunder Mifflin.

I spent a long time in this world myself: I was a portfolio manager on Wall Street for 20 years, and I have an MBA. The job I left paid way, way more than I will ever make as a doctor, but I'm doing this because a doctor is what I've always wanted to be. ("Stuff happened" when I was young, and it wasn't realistic to think about med school back then.)

As someone who knows how to analyze investments, I can tell you quite definitely that medicine doesn't provide a very impressive financial return on all the time and money you must put into your training. First of all, med school is longer than other professional schools (business is 2 years, law 3), so it takes longer to start earning a decent living, and the tuition is very high. But the REAL killer is residency, where you spend up to 9 years working for paltry wages--well below what you'd make in ANY other job, including secretarial work and picking up garbage. The "opportunity cost" of residency--the income you could have made during those years if you were doing something else--actually exceeds the cost of med school.

But, as I said at the beginning, I'm not doing this because of money. I'm giving up a lot economically, but it's worth it to me. However, I am going into it with my eyes open.

 

[miborovsky]

Talking to some "premeds", it seems they have absolutely no idea what getting into med school (as opposed to "being premed", which anyone can do) entails.

Clueless premed: Blah blah blah I'm a premed blah blah blah ...

Me: Oh? Cool, me too!

Clueless premed: ... blah blah my GPA of 2.8 blah blah ...

Me: * dead inside from holding in laughter *

 

[girlofgrace7]

My vote would be: show them opcn and Tompi's threads and watch the horror unfold on their faces.

Or just show them this.

The problem with showing people the number grid is that it makes people feel like they still have a shot. I mean, a third of the applicants with a 1.47-1.99 GPA and a 30-32 MCAT were accepted. It's not showing what crazy circumstances that one person was accepted under or how much research/volunteering/shadowing/ECs that person had. The chart will not scare them.

 

[student1799]

So you have an interesting story about an individual that left an opportunity on the table to make more money doing something else other than being a physician -- to be a physician.

So what?

n=1 is not a very solid basis for drawing averages and I don't feel like trying to derive what your own personal definition of "profession" means in order to run another hypo financial scenario. What are the "any professions" that you are referring to? Accountant? Marketing Consultant? Manager at McDonalds? Painter? Police officer? Taxi Driver? Lawyer?

Crunch the numbers for us all if you want. I'll check them out.

I know off the top of my head that the median lawyer salary is ~62k. The average lawyer seems to work like a dog and puts in over 60/hrs a week (often over 80 hrs/wk before a big trial) [at that salary] in hopes of partnership dreams that never materialize. Show me how he beats the average ortho doc I used in my earlier post.

My original comment about money was not my major point--it was just one element among several that I identified in asserting to the OP that medicine is a very tough job that not everyone would want to take on. I.e. if it's money you're after, there are more efficient ways to get it with less effort. That's quite true, and I stand by it.

I cited my own story merely to show you that I have personal knowledge and expertise to back up my statements. In other words, as someone who's worked in another profession, I'm familiar with its economics and working conditions, and I also know how to evaluate cash flows--which is what this is all about. However, I'm still not sure you get the point, so I'll try one more time.

For any investment, the most important factors determining your return are:

1. Your upfront investment: how much you have to put in, and when.

2. The money you get back, and WHEN you get it.

The above can be summarized as THE TIME VALUE OF MONEY, which could be translated as "a dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow." Why? Because if I get the $ earlier, I can put it in the bank and make interest on it.
So if we look at a doctor vs. a lawyer, we see:

A. Greater investment in professional school tuition, for more years. (Bad)

B. Doctor starts earning full salary much later because training is much longer. (bad) Doctor has many years of very low pay during residency (huge economic give-up), lawyer does not.

Just think about that for a minute. A resident is earning $45K (even in a city like NYC), while a beginning lawyer in a decent firm starts at a minimum of $150K, and their salary keeps increasing during that time. So by the time the MD is done with residency, the lawyer could already be up to $200K or more. He will probably have earned more than $800K in those 5 years, while the doctor has only made $225K--and his starting pay out of residency could well be lower than what the lawyer is already making. Depending on his specialty as well as what area the lawyer is in, the MD might surpass him in salary eventually, but it will take a long time to make up for the huge economic
hole he starts out in.

It's great that you want to do ortho, but I know a lot of a lawyers who make far more than the average ortho--and they earn it for more years, because lawyers don't do residency. So it's pretty hard to medicine to win from a purely FINANCIAL standpoint.

As I said earlier, there are other rewards, which is why I want to do it. But if you are looking at this as a lucrative career, believe me, there are better ways to make money with considerably less effort and sacrifice.