WHAT THE ****ABEM!!!

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thegenius

thegenius

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Why does ABEM need to know my sexual orientation?

WTF kind of question is that? WHY DO THEY WANT TO KNOW WHO I LIKE TO F?

FOOKING RIDICULOUS.

They need to take out all these stupid gender questions.

ABEM.jpeg
 
ABEM wants to know this because a significant amount of the medical establishment (ie people on the ABEM Council and similar organizations that you didn’t elect) believes that diversity in characteristics such as race, gender identity, and sexual orientation are markers of quality in doctors. This shouldn’t be surprising.
 
They also increased the yearly fee to $330 which is infuriating. I paid $320 last year.
 
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ShockIndex said:
ABEM wants to know this because a significant amount of the medical establishment (ie people on the ABEM Council and similar organizations that you didn’t elect) believes that diversity in characteristics such as race, gender identity, and sexual orientation are markers of quality in doctors. This shouldn’t be surprising.
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They use the phrase "experiencing homelessness" in question stems too. More woke nonsense.

I live in a home. Am I "experiencing housedness?"
 
Over the past decade, many of us have appropriately focused our attention on the proliferation of corporate residencies as the greatest threat to quality care in our specialty. It was and still is, I suppose.

However, in doing so we took our eye off the threat from within - namely ideological residency program directors selecting and promoting applicants based on characteristics other than medical fund of knowledge and ability standards as we defined them just a decade ago.

Watching this transformation from the outside (I now only supervise EM residents on off-service rotations) has been astonishing. I sometimes wonder if older EM faculty still in The Game notice the transformation, or if incrementalism has prevailed.
 
ShockIndex said:
Over the past decade, many of us have appropriately focused our attention on the proliferation of corporate residencies as the greatest threat to quality care in our specialty. It was and still is, I suppose.

However, in doing so we took our eye off the threat from within - namely ideological residency program directors selecting and promoting applicants based on characteristics other than medical fund of knowledge and ability standards as we defined them just a decade ago.

Watching this transformation from the outside (I now only supervise EM residents on off-service rotations) has been astonishing. I sometimes wonder if older EM faculty still in The Game notice the transformation, or if incrementalism has prevailed.
Click to expand...

I was affiliated with a "powerhouse" residency that used to prioritize knowledge and ability. As that shifted, we matched weaker and weaker residents.

In my group now, we have many DOs that would have been laughed at had they applied to said powerhouse 10 years ago. They are the most talented EM clinicians I've ever worked with.
 
TooMuchResearch said:
There is a yearly fee?

Someone would tell me if I'm not still board certified right? 😂
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Yeah and they force you to do some waste of time modules along with the fee. They'll send you a million emails until you pay it, so you're probably fine.

Oh well. Things could be worse. I could be a pediatrician.
 
thegenius said:
We are paying ABEM about $800 in total fees/year to maintain board certification.

How much do other specialties pay to maintain theirs?
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Here's a handful fetched by ChatGPT. Doesn't include any of those "hidden" fees like the annual tests.
  1. Internal Medicine (American Board of Internal Medicine) – Annual Maintenance of Certification (MOC) fee:
    • $220 per year for first certificate, $120 per year for each additional certificate.
  2. Psychiatry & Neurology (American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology) – Annual Continuing Certification (CC) program fee:
    • $175 for one certification; $240 for two; $310 for three or more.
  3. Diagnostic Radiology (American Board of Radiology) – Annual MOC fee:
    • $340 for diagnostic radiology (same for interventional/diagnostic); $205 for medical physics.
  4. Multiple Specialties (American Board of Physician Specialties – ABPS) – Annual Certification Management Fee (CMF):
    • $595 for primary board certification (plus varying non-primary fees).
  5. Specialty Certifications (American Board of Podiatric Medicine) – Although ABPM uses exam fees rather than a separate annual MOC fee, board certification exam cost ~$1,750 with ongoing participation likely involving annual certification tracking costs (note: this board’s annual maintenance structure is less standardized).
  6. American Board of Preventive Medicine (ABPM) – Annual Continuing Certification Program fee:
    • Range ~$150 – $200 per certificate annually (depending on payment timing).
  7. American Board of Pathology (ABPath) – Annual continuing certification participation fee:
    • $150 per year.
 
thegenius said:
We are paying ABEM about $800 in total fees/year to maintain board certification.

How much do other specialties pay to maintain theirs?
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Do you have a fellowship? I’m paying $330/year for just ABEM. Although you can pay for multiple years in advance at the current rate. But I can’t stomach giving them more money ahead of time.
 
ABEM is a scam. 25 yrs ago when I got my 1st cert it was maybe $1k for the test and I was good for 10 yrs. They didn't bug me until I was close to 10 years and then retook the test and paid around $1K the 2nd time around.

Now, I have to do these yearly modules and pay fees. My cert is good for 3 or 5 years I think and the 10 yr route is gone. I feel like I have to jump through constant hoops. Their website sucks and hard to understand what I need.

So It feels like I am paying 3x as much and learn almost nothing. Back in the 10 yr track, I took a week to brush up on current stuff and felt like I learned something. Now, I just pay the fees, click through the modules without even reading anything, and answer the questions via a google search. The PI is a joke, all you do is attest you did something.

ABEM, if you are seeing this, you have turned recert into a joke to the level of recertifying for an ACLS badge.
 
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I’m convinced that they now require the annual fee payment (rather than just requiring a lump sum to recertify) because they know that the specialty is such a dumpster fire, and they are such a scam, that diplomates are all looking for an exit.

If they allowed for you to pay for your recert in the last year before you renew (the way they used to), they know everyone would wait till the last year. In the meantime, a certain percentage of us would find an exit from EM and decide to let certification lapse, and ABEM would lose all that revenue. By requiring annual fees to maintain certification, they squeeze as much out of us as they possibly can and don’t leave any revenue on the table.
 
Guys I don't love ABEM but the fee structure and module cost is pretty straight forward-- @Mount Asclepius has it correct upthread.

You pay one annual fee. Its $330/year. Its Netflix. You can do ALL THE TESTS AND MODULES YOU WANT, and they are included in that fee. If you want category one certified CME, they tag you for 20-30 extra dollars on top when you take a module, but leave this optional if you don't need/want said (cheap but not free!) category one CME. I guess I prefer this, if it keeps the annual fee lower to leave it a la carte.

While you pay an annual fee, our board certification is on a 5 year cycle, so some tasks must be completed every 5 years. Specifically you need to do 4 of these module multiple choice tests within the 5 year period, and you need to attest to an activity, and maintain your medical license per their standard. And pay your annual fee. If you do THAT, you stay certified. So every 5 years you are paying them a total of $1650, taking four open book online 50 questions tests, and clicking a handful of boxes.

Now it was SLIGHTLY more complex when they rolled this out, as there previously had been a 10 year cycle and people were at various times within said cycles, so to make it financially fair, they allowed different cohorts to pay for single one-off modules, etc. But they did push out numbers and explanations of this, and no one cohort took a financial bath changing over.

Now, do I want to pay $330/year for what I find to be a rather silly but occasionally insightful open book multiple choice test that I can bang out in 20 minutes? Nah. Not really. But I honestly prefer it to taking a q10yr high stakes single-take exam for a similar price, and I find them a modest improvement on the prior LLSA tests...
 
I think we can play this two ways--

(1) We want A REALLY DIFFICULT TEST we all have to study for, high stakes, not open book, not taken at your house, etc. Will this improve quality of care?

(2) We want the cheapest, least intrusive MoC/Board certification that still passes a sniff test of validity.


Can't have it both ways.

I chose (2), myself. And I think their product is a reasonable approximation of it. One thing I actually LIKE about the key advances questions is that they can push knowledge / propaganda / care standards via inserting repeated questions on a topic... so you push everyone to acknowledge the concept of HEART score, discharging lower risk chest pain, encouraging this practice, and (one hopes) this translates into less ridiculous tort on these cases since they have declared an EM-MD centric "Reasonable" standard. Clearly this is the little optimist within me, but I think there are some upsides to this model...
 
oldtown said:
I’m convinced that they now require the annual fee payment (rather than just requiring a lump sum to recertify) because they know that the specialty is such a dumpster fire, and they are such a scam, that diplomates are all looking for an exit.

If they allowed for you to pay for your recert in the last year before you renew (the way they used to), they know everyone would wait till the last year. In the meantime, a certain percentage of us would find an exit from EM and decide to let certification lapse, and ABEM would lose all that revenue. By requiring annual fees to maintain certification, they squeeze as much out of us as they possibly can and don’t leave any revenue on the table.
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As someone in this demographic, this is spot on.

Adding insult to injury, I just paid over 2 grand to sit for the HPM boards.

And I just discovered that ABEM diplomates who are HPM certified have to start their MOC right away. ABIM diplomates don’t have to start for TEN YEARS.
 
Mount Asclepius said:
It’s $330 total per year and that includes the modules.

ABEM Annual Fee
Click to expand...

I looked at the link.

I was due to recert this year. I paid for 4 modules (at $440/each), and also paid the next 5 years worth of annual fees. That was ~$1600.

Isn't the model that you do one exam each year, which costs $$$, and the annual fee, which costs $$$?

Or maybe I won't have to do the MyEMCert going forward, and the annual fee includes the 50 question test?
 
Janders said:
Guys I don't love ABEM but the fee structure and module cost is pretty straight forward-- @Mount Asclepius has it correct upthread.

You pay one annual fee. Its $330/year. Its Netflix. You can do ALL THE TESTS AND MODULES YOU WANT, and they are included in that fee. If you want category one certified CME, they tag you for 20-30 extra dollars on top when you take a module, but leave this optional if you don't need/want said (cheap but not free!) category one CME. I guess I prefer this, if it keeps the annual fee lower to leave it a la carte.

While you pay an annual fee, our board certification is on a 5 year cycle, so some tasks must be completed every 5 years. Specifically you need to do 4 of these module multiple choice tests within the 5 year period, and you need to attest to an activity, and maintain your medical license per their standard. And pay your annual fee. If you do THAT, you stay certified. So every 5 years you are paying them a total of $1650, taking four open book online 50 questions tests, and clicking a handful of boxes.

Now it was SLIGHTLY more complex when they rolled this out, as there previously had been a 10 year cycle and people were at various times within said cycles, so to make it financially fair, they allowed different cohorts to pay for single one-off modules, etc. But they did push out numbers and explanations of this, and no one cohort took a financial bath changing over.

Now, do I want to pay $330/year for what I find to be a rather silly but occasionally insightful open book multiple choice test that I can bang out in 20 minutes? Nah. Not really. But I honestly prefer it to taking a q10yr high stakes single-take exam for a similar price, and I find them a modest improvement on the prior LLSA tests...
Click to expand...

Ok so I was paying for modules this week that I should have done in the prior years. But that's not the model going forward.
 
Janders said:
I think we can play this two ways--

(1) We want A REALLY DIFFICULT TEST we all have to study for, high stakes, not open book, not taken at your house, etc. Will this improve quality of care?

(2) We want the cheapest, least intrusive MoC/Board certification that still passes a sniff test of validity.


Can't have it both ways.

I chose (2), myself. And I think their product is a reasonable approximation of it. One thing I actually LIKE about the key advances questions is that they can push knowledge / propaganda / care standards via inserting repeated questions on a topic... so you push everyone to acknowledge the concept of HEART score, discharging lower risk chest pain, encouraging this practice, and (one hopes) this translates into less ridiculous tort on these cases since they have declared an EM-MD centric "Reasonable" standard. Clearly this is the little optimist within me, but I think there are some upsides to this model...
Click to expand...

Yes I didn't mind the key advance questions as well. In fact I downloaded them to my computer.

I don't know what I want from a recertification process. The fact is there are ER doctors who can be BOTH bad doctors AND board certified. Answering test questions doesn't mean you'll know what the F to do when in front of a patient.
 
Janders said:
I think we can play this two ways--

(1) We want A REALLY DIFFICULT TEST we all have to study for, high stakes, not open book, not taken at your house, etc. Will this improve quality of care?

(2) We want the cheapest, least intrusive MoC/Board certification that still passes a sniff test of validity.


Can't have it both ways.

I chose (2), myself. And I think their product is a reasonable approximation of it. One thing I actually LIKE about the key advances questions is that they can push knowledge / propaganda / care standards via inserting repeated questions on a topic... so you push everyone to acknowledge the concept of HEART score, discharging lower risk chest pain, encouraging this practice, and (one hopes) this translates into less ridiculous tort on these cases since they have declared an EM-MD centric "Reasonable" standard. Clearly this is the little optimist within me, but I think there are some upsides to this model...
Click to expand...

Or how about c) none of the above?

Board certification doesn't mean anything any more. Not when you have NP Janet running around the ED unsupervised and the random FM person coming in here every few months asking if he can do locums in a critical access ED with no consultants.
 
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Sure option C nihilistic destruction of the board so we can just be on an equal playing field with everyone and their NP aunt.

Not an invalid choice, and maybe we are heading that way.

But hey my shop only allows abem certified docs and it’s allowed me to opt out of acls ATLS and pals for the last 14 years. So look I got something out of it 🙂
 
Yeah

I briefly considered picking up locums after going into UM FT since I found a decent gig. Long drive but good pay and low volume, which would have been a nice change from my murdermill BS sweatshop.

When I submitted my cv they asked for my acls and bls. I said I have my abem and that was good enough. They said I'd have to get bls and acls again.

And that was the end of that conversation and the last time I applied for an em job.

My old job required only abem. That was a good trend--no merit badge BS
 
AlmostAnMD said:
My old job required only abem. That was a good trend--no merit badge BS
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I was able to get away with not doing BLS/ACLS/PALS at Kaiser NW by submitting the ACEP not-merit-badges documentation.:

Get a Card That Says You Exceed the Need for Short Course Merit Badges

ACEP believes that certification by ABEM or AOBEM supersedes the need for so-called "merit badge" short courses. Many credentialing bodies, however, still require evidence. For EPs required to have a card, ACEP offers its members a set of personalized cards online, and attest that they are...
www.acep.org www.acep.org
 
Yeah I took the original versions of that and an AAEM statement to med exec and convinced the docs to change our credentials many years ago. One of my proudest achievements (I think we were the first hospital in the state to do this!). It’s a relatively little thing but less red tape and annoyance = better.
 
Janders said:
Guys I don't love ABEM but the fee structure and module cost is pretty straight forward-- @Mount Asclepius has it correct upthread.

You pay one annual fee. Its $330/year. Its Netflix. You can do ALL THE TESTS AND MODULES YOU WANT, and they are included in that fee. If you want category one certified CME, they tag you for 20-30 extra dollars on top when you take a module, but leave this optional if you don't need/want said (cheap but not free!) category one CME. I guess I prefer this, if it keeps the annual fee lower to leave it a la carte.

While you pay an annual fee, our board certification is on a 5 year cycle, so some tasks must be completed every 5 years. Specifically you need to do 4 of these module multiple choice tests within the 5 year period, and you need to attest to an activity, and maintain your medical license per their standard. And pay your annual fee. If you do THAT, you stay certified. So every 5 years you are paying them a total of $1650, taking four open book online 50 questions tests, and clicking a handful of boxes.

Now it was SLIGHTLY more complex when they rolled this out, as there previously had been a 10 year cycle and people were at various times within said cycles, so to make it financially fair, they allowed different cohorts to pay for single one-off modules, etc. But they did push out numbers and explanations of this, and no one cohort took a financial bath changing over.

Now, do I want to pay $330/year for what I find to be a rather silly but occasionally insightful open book multiple choice test that I can bang out in 20 minutes? Nah. Not really. But I honestly prefer it to taking a q10yr high stakes single-take exam for a similar price, and I find them a modest improvement on the prior LLSA tests...
Click to expand...
My primary gripe is not the recertification process or costs, it’s ABEM’s inability to 1) maintain accurate records and have a functioning portal for MOC activities, and 2) answer the damn phone or return an email. There is a massive sunk costs from me having to make sure ABEM records the MOC activities that I complete.

Let’s take them one at a time. For at least 3 months between Oct 2025 and Jan 2026, my ABEM portal listed deficiencies or required tasks that had actually been completed…often years prior. For example, it took them more than 3 months to show that I had completed my annual 60-question CCM MOC requirement. That “deficiency” stood on my portal page for 3 months despite having completed it 2 months ahead of schedule and multiple emails to clarify why I was still being listed as deficient. In fact, my entire CCM portal page mysteriously became a mirror of my EM portal (without any CCM info) for much of 2025. My portal also listed deficiencies in LLSA articles for my EM certification despite the portal clearly showing that I had completed every year’s LLSA for the past 17 years they were available. Ironically, I literally tried to log into my portal just before typing this message to see if it had been updated, and every attempt return a “403 Gateways Error.” Their inability to maintain accurate and timely records is the mother of all ironies given our profession.

When it comes to contacting someone at ABEM, they literally never answer the phone - ever. I’ve tried to call probably 15 times over the past 3 years and cannot recall a single instance of someone picking-up the line - no matter which extensions I tried. Not even the general operator answers. Less than 25% of my emails or messages generated through the website have been returned. Mind you, these are not small matters and this is not the pattern of any other professional organization that I’ve encountered in any industry.
 
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ShockIndex said:
My primary gripe is not the recertification process or costs, it’s ABEM’s inability to 1) maintain accurate records and have a functioning portal for MOC activities, and 2) answer the damn phone or return an email. There is a massive sunk costs from me having to make sure ABEM records the MOC activities that I complete.

Let’s take them one at a time. For at least 3 months between Oct 2025 and Jan 2026, my ABEM portal listed deficiencies or required tasks that had actually been completed…often years prior. For example, it took them more than 3 months to show that I had completed my annual 60-question CCM MOC requirement. That “deficiency” stood on my portal page for 3 months despite having completed it 2 months ahead of schedule and multiple emails to clarify why I was still being listed as deficient. In fact, my entire CCM portal page mysteriously became a mirror of my EM portal (without any CCM info) for much of 2025. My portal also listed deficiencies in LLSA articles for my EM certification despite the portal clearly showing that I had completed every year’s LLSA for the past 17 years they were available. Ironically, I literally tried to log into my portal just before typing this message to see if it had been updated, and every attempt return a “403 Gateways Error.” Their inability to maintain accurate and timely records is the mother of all ironies given our profession.

When it comes to contacting someone at ABEM, they literally never answer the phone - ever. I’ve tried to call probably 15 times over the past 3 years and cannot recall a single instance of someone picking-up the line - no matter which extensions I tried. Not even the general operator answers. Less than 25% of my emails or messages generated through the website have been returned. Mind you, these are not small matters and this is not the pattern of any other professional organization that I’ve encountered in any industry.
Click to expand...
How can they answer the phone when they’re all in Hawaii, on our dime?
Jeez.
 
Yeah that’s sounds pretty bad. I haven’t had personally issues with the portal but I log in roughly 1x a year in December to pay and due a quiz, so I may have lucked out or missed it! And I only have the EM cert to worry about…
 
ShockIndex said:
My primary gripe is not the recertification process or costs, it’s ABEM’s inability to 1) maintain accurate records and have a functioning portal for MOC activities, and 2) answer the damn phone or return an email. There is a massive sunk costs from me having to make sure ABEM records the MOC activities that I complete.

Let’s take them one at a time. For at least 3 months between Oct 2025 and Jan 2026, my ABEM portal listed deficiencies or required tasks that had actually been completed…often years prior. For example, it took them more than 3 months to show that I had completed my annual 60-question CCM MOC requirement. That “deficiency” stood on my portal page for 3 months despite having completed it 2 months ahead of schedule and multiple emails to clarify why I was still being listed as deficient. In fact, my entire CCM portal page mysteriously became a mirror of my EM portal (without any CCM info) for much of 2025. My portal also listed deficiencies in LLSA articles for my EM certification despite the portal clearly showing that I had completed every year’s LLSA for the past 17 years they were available. Ironically, I literally tried to log into my portal just before typing this message to see if it had been updated, and every attempt return a “403 Gateways Error.” Their inability to maintain accurate and timely records is the mother of all ironies given our profession.

When it comes to contacting someone at ABEM, they literally never answer the phone - ever. I’ve tried to call probably 15 times over the past 3 years and cannot recall a single instance of someone picking-up the line - no matter which extensions I tried. Not even the general operator answers. Less than 25% of my emails or messages generated through the website have been returned. Mind you, these are not small matters and this is not the pattern of any other professional organization that I’ve encountered in any industry.
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I might be lucky, but the one time I called abem to reschedule my oral boards a few years ago, they responded and were super nice and rescheduled me.
 
carbonizedeyesockets said:
Who cares? You were allowed to decline. So. What. Of all the things to beef with ABEM over, this is nothing.
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yes and no

in order to make this change

1) someone had the idea
2) it went to a subcommittee
3) approved from sub went to general body for discussion
4) a vote was held
5) technical peeps made the physical interface changes

This probably involved dozens of people, and a collective hundreds of hours of individual commitment time, all paid for by us

So I dunno. Yeah, you can just ignore it but the resources spent on it that we all pitched in for is a valid complaint. Time, resources that could have been spent on things a broader group cares about.
 
AlmostAnMD said:
yes and no

in order to make this change

1) someone had the idea
2) it went to a subcommittee
3) approved from sub went to general body for discussion
4) a vote was held
5) technical peeps made the physical interface changes

This probably involved dozens of people, and a collective hundreds of hours of individual commitment time, all paid for by us

So I dunno. Yeah, you can just ignore it but the resources spent on it that we all pitched in for is a valid complaint. Time, resources that could have been spent on things a broader group cares about.
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I'm doubtful this was a big spend on their part; a drop in the bucket insofar as costs. Again, so what. Don't answer and move on with your life instead of being a snowflake and crying about it on a web forum. There's bigger fish to fry, man.
 
You really don't understand why an organization would be interested in the demographics of its customers? In 2026? In the era when your phone, computer, doorbell, and smart toilet dissect you into a million market subsegments, the idea of an organization wanting your basic demographics is so confusing you can't fathom anyway that information would be of interest or worth their time to ask for?
 
DeadCactus said:
You really don't understand why an organization would be interested in the demographics of its customers? In 2026? In the era when your phone, computer, doorbell, and smart toilet dissect you into a million market subsegments, the idea of an organization wanting your basic demographics is so confusing you can't fathom anyway that information would be of interest or worth their time to ask for?
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There are "basic" demographics. and then there is wat they want. I dont get my panties in a wad. IDC. I answer with no regard for the truth to make their data meaningless just as I see their organization as just a meaningless hoop i have to jump thru
 
carbonizedeyesockets said:
Who cares? You were allowed to decline. So. What. Of all the things to beef with ABEM over, this is nothing.
Click to expand...

I care along with tens of thousands of other ER docs.

If they simply put something saying

"the following questions listed are OPTIONAL and allows us to better profile you so we can comply with woke government policies.
You are not required to answer them.
And yes, we want to know what kind of person you roll around naked with in bed.
We do not support answers such as threesomes, foursomes, or orgies. Please choose an accurate answer since those are not allowed"

I probably would have never posted this angry thread.



ABEM should know my name, address, what state licenses I hold, and that's about it.
 
DeadCactus said:
You really don't understand why an organization would be interested in the demographics of its customers? In 2026? In the era when your phone, computer, doorbell, and smart toilet dissect you into a million market subsegments, the idea of an organization wanting your basic demographics is so confusing you can't fathom anyway that information would be of interest or worth their time to ask for?
Click to expand...

There is no reason for any professional organization to know about what I do in my private life. Period.

Why does ABEM want to know what kind of person I ****** last night? Why should they want to know?

When you see your personal doctor because of your urge incontinence, do you care who your PCP ****ed this past week?
 
I can imagine reasons to be curious about the race / gender / ethnicity / etc of a specific professional group that don’t actually involve some type of woke government conspiracy for us to get gender conforming surgery prior to a string of overnights.

I guess my cynicism only goes so far.
 
Janders said:
I can imagine reasons to be curious about the race / gender / ethnicity / etc of a specific professional group that don’t actually involve some type of woke government conspiracy for us to get gender conforming surgery prior to a string of overnights.

I guess my cynicism only goes so far.
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It's the next stage in forcing MOC on everyone. If you fall behind more than 1 cycle they come to your house and force gender reassignment surgery on you.

Guarantee that's the last time you don't do your MOC busywork...
 
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