What the heck are "low-tier" MD schools?!

[SyrianHero]

I keep reading on forms something like "you may have a shot at one of the low-tier MD schools" but no one ever specifies what those schools are. Is there some sort of tentative list of so called "low-tier" MD schools?

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[Etorphine]

you're not from around these parts, are you?

 

[CassieBagley]

nothing

 

[DrMidlife]

small schools that are strictly medical (EVMS, NYMC).

How is size/focus of school relevant? Mayo, UCSF, etc.

Though not always, low tier schools are easier to get into (GPA/MCAT-wise)

I'd argue that low admissions stats are the only relevant info for low tier schools, given the context of the question.

but match at less prestigious residencies due to various reasons.

True on average, but lower tier schools have prestigious matches every year. And high tier schools have students who don't match. Think overlapping bell curves. Consider that the vast majority of med students don't get prestigious residencies...or those residencies aren't prestigious...the vast majority of med students doesn't just go home and cry on match day.

Ultimately, the tier doesn't matter so much as whether that school can get you into your desired residency at your desired hospital. Sometimes low tier schools have professors with connections or have specific research opportunities that may be advantageous.

How much you help yourself out with board scores etc, is going to outweigh your school's prestige pretty quick.

Best of luck to you.

 

[thepoopologist]

Stanford is low tier.

 

[Abider]

I tend to think the cash in on a med school's reputation--entirely separate from the intrinsic experience--comes in one of several broad categories:

Nationally and internationally renownedinstitutions
Regionally or locally respected institutions
And then all the rest as vaguely approximate equals

And then as DrML says the individual talent being of prime importance for residency app.

 

[Bane]

I keep reading on forms something like "you may have a shot at one of the low-tier MD schools" but no one ever specifies what those schools are. Is there some sort of tentative list of so called "low-tier" MD schools?

If you have to ask then you're either considering or attending a low-tier school.

True on average, but lower tier schools have prestigious matches every year. And high tier schools have students who don't match.

How much you help yourself out with board scores etc, is going to outweigh your school's prestige pretty quick.

Best of luck to you.

I could care less about prestige but most of this information is not very good.

Everyone wants to believe they can go to a school not in the Top 40/25/10 - pick your cut-off, and still land that top 3 residency in that surgical sub-specialty or whatever, but let's be honest, top residency programs pick students from top schools to interview 90% of the time... so yes, you could win the lottery to if you buy a ticket tomorrow but saying something is possible doesn't really mean much.

And then as DrML says the individual talent being of prime importance for residency app.

Again, wishful thinking. Talk to people who have actually interviewed in competitive fields + competitive spots... they literally can chose from ANY board scores and ANY whatever (picture 500 applications with only 50 interviews)... So yes, maybe a handful of those people went to Low-tier State U, but you can bet that almost all of them are name brand approved.

I know everyone thinks they are a special little snowflake and they will be that one who slips through the cracks... time will tell.

PD's are obsessed with prestige just like you guys are. "I want to match at MGH...." well, they want someone who went to Harvard to match with them. It's kind of ironic that those who go to low-tier U don't want to match at low-tier U because it's low-tier U, but they don't want the PD's to think like they do (discriminating against their own institution).

 

[surftheiop]

This is obviously a gross over generalization, but if you list all of the medschools in each state in order of prestige, then collect the school on the bottom of the list in each state, then you will have the "low -tier". There are probably a couple notable exceptions where a state only has 1 medschool or something, but is probably a good general estimate. (Assuming your going for a top-middle-low breakdown)

 

[Perrotfish]

I keep reading on forms something like "you may have a shot at one of the low-tier MD schools" but no one ever specifies what those schools are. Is there some sort of tentative list of so called "low-tier" MD schools?

Medical schools that are easier to get into. The top quartile is top tier. Then what's left is split between mid and low tier. People care less, though, than most other kinds of graduate school because medical students are judged so much on the basis of standardized tests that the tier of your school has significalty less impact on your career. So med students don't know their school's ranking like undergrads and law students.

 

[CassieBagley]

How is size/focus of school relevant? Mayo, UCSF, etc.

I'd argue that low admissions stats are the only relevant info for low tier schools, given the context of the question.

True on average, but lower tier schools have prestigious matches every year. And high tier schools have students who don't match. Think overlapping bell curves. Consider that the vast majority of med students don't get prestigious residencies...or those residencies aren't prestigious...the vast majority of med students doesn't just go home and cry on match day.

How much you help yourself out with board scores etc, is going to outweigh your school's prestige pretty quick.

Best of luck to you.

Well UCSF and Mayo are associated with reputable and famous hospitals compared to EVMS/NYMC. So even though all four are small, the other two happen to also not have something else dragging them up to "high tier status".

With respect to matching, there's no doubt that kids from low tier med schools do match at top notch residencies each year...but if you were to aggregate all the match results I think you'd find that most top tier med students match at top tier residencies whereas only some low tier med students match at top tier residencies.

I completely agree with the last comment on board scores but if you're a low tier med student and you get the same high score as a top tier med student, odds are the top tier kid from Harvard is gonna land that residency slot over you

 

[Perrotfish]

I completely agree with the last comment on board scores but if you're a low tier med student and you get the same high score as a top tier med student, odds are the top tier kid from Harvard is gonna land that residency slot over you

I'm actually not sure that medical students would do better in the match coming from high tier institutions vs low tier if you normalized for undergraduate performance. The match is based heavily on class rank, AOA membership, and letters of recommendation, all of which are based on outperforming your immediate peers. Assuming that Step score doesn't vary between instituitons for matriculants of similar quality, and assuming the student in question isn't quite talented enough to land AOA, a great research project, and top LORs at Hopkins, the best strategy might actually be to be the biggest fish in a relatively small pond.

 

[Abider]

If you have to ask then you're either considering or attending a low-tier school.



I could care less about prestige but most of this information is not very good.

Everyone wants to believe they can go to a school not in the Top 40/25/10 - pick your cut-off, and still land that top 3 residency in that surgical sub-specialty or whatever, but let's be honest, top residency programs pick students from top schools to interview 90% of the time... so yes, you could win the lottery to if you buy a ticket tomorrow but saying something is possible doesn't really mean much.




Again, wishful thinking. Talk to people who have actually interviewed in competitive fields + competitive spots... they literally can chose from ANY board scores and ANY whatever (picture 500 applications with only 50 interviews)... So yes, maybe a handful of those people went to Low-tier State U, but you can bet that almost all of them are name brand approved.

I know everyone thinks they are a special little snowflake and they will be that one who slips through the cracks... time will tell.

PD's are obsessed with prestige just like you guys are. "I want to match at MGH...." well, they want someone who went to Harvard to match with them. It's kind of ironic that those who go to low-tier U don't want to match at low-tier U because it's low-tier U, but they don't
want the PD's to think like they do (discriminating against their own institution).

Well ok. For a small field of applicants--a handful or a dozen or whatever--in each class, where the finer points of separation begin matter then fine. But the topic is one of generalization, in which case you're the one making the extrapolation error. For most us performance will be the topic of our app discussion, tempered by some perception of our home institution but not determined by it.

 

[CassieBagley]

Well ok. For a small field of applicants--a handful or a dozen or whatever--in each class, where the finer points of separation begin matter then fine. But the topic is one of generalization, in which case you're the one making the extrapolation error. For most us performance will be the topic of our app discussion, tempered by some perception of our home institution but not determined by it.

Though performance will be the number one thing they look at, it is paired with everything else- EC, LOR, school reputation etc. Performance is only the first hoop you have to jump through, but for many applicants they can't pass the other criteria that top residencies are looking for EVEN IF that applicant scored 265 on step 1 and is ranked number 1 at louisville med. No matter what, everyone is competing against the harvard/columbia/ucsf med school grads with the same exact scores but arguably better resources/LORs/research/rotations simply b/c their school had those resources from the get go.

 

[SoundofSilver]

I agree that students from top tier schools tend to match into prestigious residencies at a higher rate than students from other schools. That's just how it seems to work. I think the more important question is, as long as you match into your desired specialty, why does it matter if your residency is "prestigious" or not. You'll still be trained, you'll still be able to land a fellowship (albeit at a non-prestigious institution), you'll still get a job after residency, you'll still get paid, etc.

Personally, I just want to get through med school and residency as painlessly as possible and then live a simple life with a career that I hopefully enjoy. That's about it. I think I'd probably be equally happy (or perhaps happier) working at a community outpatient clinic vs. a large academic hospital.

 

[Perrotfish]

Though performance will be the number one thing they look at, it is paired with everything else- EC, LOR, school reputation etc. Performance is only the first hoop you have to jump through, but for many applicants they can't pass the other criteria that top residencies are looking for EVEN IF that applicant scored 265 on step 1 and is ranked number 1 at louisville med. No matter what, everyone is competing against the harvard/columbia/ucsf med school grads with the same exact scores but arguably better resources/LORs/research/rotations simply b/c their school had those resources from the get go.

How many residencies, though, are so competitive that they're really closed off to anyone except the top applicants from top schools? A dozen derm and plastics residencies, maybe? And how many guys can really be the top guy AT the top schools?

Now Hopkins is a great choice if you're that guy who can outcompete the entire field, but what about the significantly larger pool of people who are good enough to get into Hopkins but not good enough to rise above the middle of the class? Is being AOA at louisville better than being at the median at Hopkins?

 

[runrunrudolph1]

Well UCSF and Mayo are associated with reputable and famous hospitals compared to EVMS/NYMC. So even though all four are small, the other two happen to also not have something else dragging them up to "high tier status".

With respect to matching, there's no doubt that kids from low tier med schools do match at top notch residencies each year...but if you were to aggregate all the match results I think you'd find that most top tier med students match at top tier residencies whereas only some low tier med students match at top tier residencies.

I completely agree with the last comment on board scores but if you're a low tier med student and you get the same high score as a top tier med student, odds are the top tier kid from Harvard is gonna land that residency slot over you

This.

 

[gasblaster]

Though performance will be the number one thing they look at, it is paired with everything else- EC, LOR, school reputation etc. Performance is only the first hoop you have to jump through, but for many applicants they can't pass the other criteria that top residencies are looking for EVEN IF that applicant scored 265 on step 1 and is ranked number 1 at louisville med. No matter what, everyone is competing against the harvard/columbia/ucsf med school grads with the same exact scores but arguably better resources/LORs/research/rotations simply b/c their school had those resources from the get go.

Agree. When it comes to the rank list and match, board scores get you in the door but at some point the difference between a 262 vs 265 is going to be minimal. It's not just the name of the med school but everything else that comes with it. There's the access to top names in the field, LORs from those people who have connections at other great institutions, alum who have matched before you and paved ways into programs, etc.

I agree that students from top tier schools tend to match into prestigious residencies at a higher rate than students from other schools. That's just how it seems to work. I think the more important question is, as long as you match into your desired specialty, why does it matter if your residency is "prestigious" or not. You'll still be trained, you'll still be able to land a fellowship (albeit at a non-prestigious institution), you'll still get a job after residency, you'll still get paid, etc.

It's all personal preference. If someone wants to have a career in academics, residency and/or fellowship at an academic hospital is likely going to be important. If you prefer private practice or whatever, then it probably doesn't matter as much. However, when applying for a job in a group, I'm sure they will look at the CV and training when comparing candidates... among other things.

 

[marke]

while i do agree that top tier schools and so called prestigious institutions like to take their own

to me, the most important thing is the individual student. As previously mentioned, some low tier students make it to top tier residencies and vice versa. For med school, you go where ever you get in and if you work your a** off.. you'll end up doing just fine.

the best way to find out which tier a med school is in.. just flip through US news ranking and you'll get your answer there.. but then again, it only means so much

just my 2 cents

 

[45408]

The "low-tier" med schools tend to be state schools that show a strong in-state preference and are in a state with a relatively high student:state population ratio and aren't otherwise known as big research powerhouses. California has a lot of applicants, not as many spots. Pick a state with a lot of schools or a few large schools and not as many people living there, and those are the easier schools to get into.

That doesn't mean you can't get a good education there. Much of the discussion above can be chalked up to selection bias, IMO. High-scoring students go to selective undergrads-->med schools-->residencies. It isn't the schools that make them hard-working and efficient. Good residencies are filled with student from good med schools which are filled with students from good universities. People who gravitate toward these careers tend to be research-oriented academic types, which is what these places want.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Moving to pre-allo.

As others have said, it's entirely based on which schools are state based and accept few out-of-staters, or are generally not in the US News Top 50, or whatever. Doesn't at all mean you can't get a good education there.

 

[WorldChanger36]

The tier system has to do with prestige of the school and does not always correspond with the difficultly to get in. Most top tier school are very competitive but middle and lower tier schools are about the same in competitiveness. There is no easy medical school to get into, however lower numbers usually qualify better at mid/lower tier schools and DO schools.

 

[Member 987653]

This is obviously a gross over generalization, but if you list all of the medschools in each state in order of prestige, then collect the school on the bottom of the list in each state, then you will have the "low -tier". There are probably a couple notable exceptions where a state only has 1 medschool or something, but is probably a good general estimate. (Assuming your going for a top-middle-low breakdown)

Lolz, I'm from NH and that would make Dartmouth (now Geisel) a "low tier" school...but then again, what do I know about these things?

 

[qwerty2012]

There are no low MD schools. Any schools that accept you should be high in your heart. The low ones are the ones who won't even send a secondary. j/k, don't smite me o'mighty top 20 nih funded.

 

[kpcrew]

The ones that don't make you say "oh wow, congratulations!"

 

[notbobtrustme]

Every US MD school will give you an excellent education and prepare for your residency. The higher ranked schools also give you more oppurtinities for academic/institutional/administrative positions down the line (think CDC Director).

 

[Fivo]

Low-Tier MD Schools are the schools that, when someone asks you what school you got into, you mumble the school and then have to explain how all medical schools are equal and that regardless of the school you got into, you're going to be a great doctor.

 

[whatbout2morrow]

I'd argue that low admissions stats are the only relevant info for low tier schools, given the context of the question.

👍

 

[MedPR]

Low-Tier MD Schools are the schools that, when someone asks you what school you got into, you mumble the school and then have to explain how all medical schools are equal and that regardless of the school you got into, you're going to be a great doctor.

Only on SDN. In the real world nobody knows that a school like EVMS (low tier) isn't exactly the same as a school like Saint Louis University (mid-tier). And by not exactly the same I mean SLU has more research funding. Education is the same, obviously.

 

[Fivo]

Only on SDN. In the real world nobody knows that a school like EVMS (low tier) isn't exactly the same as a school like Saint Louis University (mid-tier). And by not exactly the same I mean SLU has more research funding. Education is the same, obviously.

I hear what you're saying. Is it bad that I had to google EVMS? 😀

 

[Lucky Louie]

^^^ lol Where's the "Like" button.?



Actually, is there anyone able to provide a low-tier, mid-tier, and top-tier list? I enjoy looking through profiles to get a sense of comparitive schools, but even that isn't quite so clear.

 

[Geebeejay]

Low-tier is a very relative term, since only 40%(forget the exact statistics, so go away everyone who was thinking of arrogantly correcting me on this) of people who apply to medical school get an acceptance.

 

[45408]

^^^ lol Where's the "Like" button.?



Actually, is there anyone able to provide a low-tier, mid-tier, and top-tier list? I enjoy looking through profiles to get a sense of comparitive schools, but even that isn't quite so clear.

Buy an MSAR and use the criteria I mentioned above.

 

[Abider]

Though performance will be the number one thing they look at, it is paired with everything else- EC, LOR, school reputation etc. Performance is only the first hoop you have to jump through, but for many applicants they can't pass the other criteria that top residencies are looking for EVEN IF that applicant scored 265 on step 1 and is ranked number 1 at louisville med. No matter what, everyone is competing against the harvard/columbia/ucsf med school grads with the same exact scores but arguably better resources/LORs/research/rotations simply b/c their school had those resources from the get go.

So what you're saying is that there's somebody out there that always has a more immaculate resume than we do. Accepted. Not a single f@ck given. The things that interest me are not typically forefront in the minds of people who run "top residencies," as I take you to mean it. B/c really clinical training in a specialty doesn't track the same items. You think an ED resident from Cook County isn't ready for anything?

As the perrotfish said. Once the spots get handed to all the 260 scores with massive research from the big time. Then what....then there's the 99%.

I guess the "slightly less than top residencies" will have to make do.

But carry that kind of crap around with you, by all means.

 

[drizzt3117]

While I generally agree with the spirit of your post, it's really ironic that the chief rads residents last year from both ucsf and bwh were Louisville med grads...

Though performance will be the number one thing they look at, it is paired with everything else- EC, LOR, school reputation etc. Performance is only the first hoop you have to jump through, but for many applicants they can't pass the other criteria that top residencies are looking for EVEN IF that applicant scored 265 on step 1 and is ranked number 1 at louisville med. No matter what, everyone is competing against the harvard/columbia/ucsf med school grads with the same exact scores but arguably better resources/LORs/research/rotations simply b/c their school had those resources from the get go.

 

[45408]

While I generally agree with the spirit of your post, it's really ironic that the chief rads residents last year from both ucsf and bwh were Louisville med grads...

I've always heard pretty good things about Louisville, particularly their surgery department. Their former chairman Hiram Polk is a legend.

 

[MedPR]

I hear what you're saying. Is it bad that I had to google EVMS? 😀

I only know what EVMS is because my stats are low and it was a school I applied to because of that. 😀

 

[SisterDisco08]

FWIW, don't worry about rank. Just do your best, work hard, actually get into med school, make good connections, pick a school/residency that is the right fit for you, and become a physician by whom you would feel comfortable being treated. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if it's a low, middle, or top tier doc doing a heart transplant, so long as the procedure is done right. No reason to stress out before even getting into medical school, anyway. Won't do you any good.

 

[drizzt3117]

I've always heard pretty good things about Louisville, particularly their surgery department. Their former chairman Hiram Polk is a legend.

Fire-em Hiram? Haha, apparently he fired his share of residents and attendings during grand rounds, for which he insisted everyone wore coat and tie to.

He's apparently still involved in the program as chairman emeritus.

 

[pre med 2014]

Low-tier is a very relative term, since only 40%(forget the exact statistics, so go away everyone who was thinking of arrogantly correcting me on this) of people who apply to medical school get an acceptance.

and that number includes carribean MD and DO schools, so if you're gunho on american MD that number is even lower.

 

[MedPR]

and that number includes carribean MD and DO schools, so if you're gunho on american MD that number is even lower.

Idk, this says about 43% of applicants matriculated: 19,230/43,919. It explicitly states US Medical schools, and I highly doubt the AAMC is accounting for DO schools.

https://www.aamc.org/download/161128/data/table1.pdf

 

[Slack3r]

Drexel

 

[shinbeats]

"DO" let the trolling begin!