What the heck are they teaching in Pharmacy School these days?

[Thoughtfulsinner]

Today I had a new pharmacist ask me the following questions in the hour that we overlapped:

"Have you seen amoxicillin 500mg dosed tid? I thought it should be once to twice daily?"

"Can you take prenatal vitamins when you're breastfeeding?"

"The flu shot can give you the flu, right?"

"This was called in for nitrofurantoin suspension. Can you call the doctor because it only comes in capsules."

I'm getting very concerned that pharmacy school is way too easy and the Naplex lets pretty much anybody of minimal knowledge get by. Anybody else notice this?

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[mustang sally]

What school did the pharmacist in question graduate from?

I'm guessing you're a hawkeye; an excellent pharmacy school if I do say so myself.

 

[johnep34]

We often get the same inane questions in the UK. That is why we have the pre reg year, but first month can be a struggle for both parties.
johnep

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Today I had a new pharmacist ask me the following questions in the hour that we overlapped:

"Have you seen amoxicillin 500mg dosed tid? I thought it should be once to twice daily?"

"Can you take prenatal vitamins when you're breastfeeding?"

"The flu shot can give you the flu, right?"

"This was called in for nitrofurantoin suspension. Can you call the doctor because it only comes in capsules."

I'm getting very concerned that pharmacy school is way too easy and the Naplex lets pretty much anybody of minimal knowledge get by. Anybody else notice this?

Probably a Pitt grad.

While I do claim that a ton of pharmacy school is useless...anyone that doesn't know how Amoxil is dosed is a damned idiot. If anyone from my school didn't know that, I'd be dumbfounded. And, yes, the Naplex is too easy. I studied for 5 hours and killed it. I pity any graduate of an accredited school that doesn't pass it.

What school did said student graduate from?

 

[ffpickle]

Not Pharmacy...

Rather than treat you like a student in professional school & each you about things you need to know, i.e. medicines, they baby the class and make us take completely useless classes with completely useless labs related to Gen Chem, Analytical Chem, etc. In other words, they're teaching a lot of stupid things "other than Pharmacy"...focus on the basic sciences rather than clinical sciences..

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Not Pharmacy...

Rather than treat you like a student in professional school & each you about things you need to know, i.e. medicines, they baby the class and make us take completely useless classes with completely useless labs related to Gen Chem, Analytical Chem, etc. In other words, they're teaching a lot of stupid things "other than Pharmacy"...focus on the basic sciences rather than clinical sciences..

Yeah...the first year...it's part of that whole "academia is like building a house" theory.

 

[p-rog]

I feel dumb. I honestly don't know the dosing of amoxicillin. In infectious disease, we spent all our time learning about the actual bacteria (the infections they cause and the symptoms) and only learned the mechanism of action of the antibiotics. We never focused on the really clinically-relevant stuff. I keep saying they need to add a strictly clinical antibiotics course to the cirriculum instead of all the stupi **** they make use learn. We'll get some of it in therapy this year, but not near enough.

 

[type b pharmD]

academia is ****ed

 

[genesis09]

They told us to not worry about dosing. They said we would pick it up.

 

[BustyPharmD]

yup, nowadays, I feel like my time in class is a waste. I can learn what they want on my own. MOA, Org Chem, P.Chem stuff. Prodrug this...metabolism that...just give me the syllabus and the notes. Come back in a few weeks and give the exam. I can figure it out.

As far as application of the material....that's where they need to put more emphasis. A basic clinical class on what things every pharmacist should know, when they graduate. But isn't that what they should be doing?

 

[WVUPharm2007]

They told us to not worry about dosing. They said we would pick it up.

Yeah...because whenever I'm hanging out in the ICU, the physicians NEVER ask me what the dose is for Arixta...they ask me what the pharmacology is...

This is what kills me about academia. While I agree that memorization of random **** is pointless because you can look it up...the **** they do make you memorize is never the basic, useful ass **** that you'd need to know everyday. Like how to dose antibiotics. Oh no...they ask you about rare 1 in 5,000 disorders like warfarin induced necrosis or some ****...

 

[Sparda29]

Yeah...because whenever I'm hanging out in the ICU, the physicians NEVER ask me what the dose is for Arixta...they ask me what the pharmacology is...

This is what kills me about academia. While I agree that memorization of random **** is pointless because you can look it up...the **** they do make you memorize is never the basic, useful ass **** that you'd need to know everyday. Like how to dose antibiotics. Oh no...they ask you about rare 1 in 5,000 disorders like warfarin induced necrosis or some ****...

Yep, like right now we're in the cardiovascular module in Therapeutics. Professor told us not to worry about the dosing for the exams, just worry about the mechanism of action, and what class does what, and which drugs are in what class.

Dosing is something you can pick up in 2 minutes by just reading the Siegler drug card. Eventually you'll get most of it during rotations. Oh, and a little part of my soul died last week at work when we got our first script for Moxatag.

 

[medicalCPA]

So if what's being taught in pharmacy school is irrelevant, how would you go about changing the curriculum?

 

[grizzlesgrizzlies]

in general i feel that i learned a lot of facts and figures in pharmacy school, but the program never really taught us how to put everything together (like how to think clinically)

 

[DrWrong]

in general i feel that i learned a lot of facts and figures in pharmacy school, but the program never really taught us how to put everything together (like how to think clinically)

FAMU just implemented a new class that is all clinical. It's PDA lab, where basically we get a case study and Let the Therapeutics professor, let's call him Dr. House, play out an episode of House, M.D. We tell him what is going on and he tells us if we are right. Only problem is two of the lab teachers that help the professor or PGY1 residents and think they are the shiznit, when really neither of them can tell the difference between subjective and objective data.

Actually fun thus far.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

So if what's being taught in pharmacy school is irrelevant, how would you go about changing the curriculum?

I'd remove the fluff classes, shorten it to two years, and add another year of rotations. I'd also put a greater focus on developing critical thinking skills.

 

[charfdorn]

Today I had a new pharmacist ask me the following questions in the hour that we overlapped:

"Have you seen amoxicillin 500mg dosed tid? I thought it should be once to twice daily?"

"Can you take prenatal vitamins when you're breastfeeding?"

"The flu shot can give you the flu, right?"

"This was called in for nitrofurantoin suspension. Can you call the doctor because it only comes in capsules."

I'm getting very concerned that pharmacy school is way too easy and the Naplex lets pretty much anybody of minimal knowledge get by. Anybody else notice this?

Well, this person is just an idiot. I'm glad I read this thread, though, because a lot of curricula are drastically different. I'm a fourth week P1, so I can't talk too much about it, but we ARE learning dosing of every drug we're learning (so far just pain meds, but I assume that continues) and we haven't had any hard science labs at this point. I sort of assumed the reason they made you take all those science pre-reqs was so they wouldn't have to re-teach it all. I mean, we blitzed through all of gen chem in like 4 weeks.

 

[ForcedEntry]

FAMU just implemented a new class that is all clinical. It's PDA lab, where basically we get a case study and Let the Therapeutics professor, let's call him Dr. House, play out an episode of House, M.D. We tell him what is going on and he tells us if we are right. Only problem is two of the lab teachers that help the professor or PGY1 residents and think they are the shiznit, when really neither of them can tell the difference between subjective and objective data.

Actually fun thus far.

Just implemented? You guys didn't have verbal defense before this class?

 

[Vitamin K]

We have a pharmacy school near us that churns out students that I really question. I've worked with several of them, and I've seen the following:

-Student who asked what he should counsel on for VICODIN (on his rotations!!!)
-P3 with no idea what Levaquin was for or what class it was in
-Student on last rotation who didn't know how to take a transfer


Yikes.

 

[confettiflyer]

I'd remove the fluff classes, shorten it to two years, and add another year of rotations. I'd also put a greater focus on developing critical thinking skills.

I think Touro CA does 2 years of rotation (after 2yrs of didactic), can't comment much else on that...anyone here work with Touro CA grads and can comment on the quality of their graduates?

I've been hearing a lot of **** talking in the Philly area about certain schools, won't air that dirty laundry here (yet).

 

[confettiflyer]

-Student on last rotation who didn't know how to take a transfer


Yikes.

I can kinda sympathize with this one...was there no proper training going on? I wouldn't think they would teach you this skill in school, you pick it up in 2 minutes out on rotations.

That said...I know what information to get, but my first transfer was less than slick (lots of "uhms" and thinking "crap what did i forget to ask")...it was more of a workflow issue for me than a lack of basic understanding.

But yes, a straight lack of knowing what a transfer entails is just sad. I'll go ahead and blame the student not the school for that. We get community experience as an IPPE then again for P-4 rotations....wtf did that student do in the 3 years before rotations?

 

[kbv]

Today I had a new pharmacist ask me the following questions in the hour that we overlapped:

"Have you seen amoxicillin 500mg dosed tid? I thought it should be once to twice daily?"

"Can you take prenatal vitamins when you're breastfeeding?"

"The flu shot can give you the flu, right?"

"This was called in for nitrofurantoin suspension. Can you call the doctor because it only comes in capsules."

I'm getting very concerned that pharmacy school is way too easy and the Naplex lets pretty much anybody of minimal knowledge get by. Anybody else notice this?

during my immunization lecture, that "influenza vaccine can't cause the flu" was repeated several times among my fellow rph/pharmd. why was it necessary for the lecturers to repeat that, I wonder?

to answer your last question: experiences are the key.
many phar students already answered your 1st question.
i don't recall any of my professors ever mentioned prenatal vit at all.

We often get the same inane questions in the UK. That is why we have the pre reg year, but first month can be a struggle for both parties.
johnep

agree.

Not Pharmacy...

Rather than treat you like a student in professional school & each you about things you need to know, i.e. medicines, they baby the class and make us take completely useless classes with completely useless labs related to Gen Chem, Analytical Chem, etc. In other words, they're teaching a lot of stupid things "other than Pharmacy"...focus on the basic sciences rather than clinical sciences..

depending on each school's curriculum

This is why any pharmacist going into retail should have retail experience beforehand. The answers to all of those questions come from experience rather than school.
I had a lot of practical questions on my naplex, but how they score it is a joke.

agree

I'd remove the fluff classes, shorten it to two years, and add another year of rotations. I'd also put a greater focus on developing critical thinking skills.

i dislike 2-year rotation; 1-year is enough. rotation is more/less like a lottery; you may end up w/ the preceptor who may fail you for whatever reasons

Well, this person is just an idiot. I'm glad I read this thread, though, because a lot of curricula are drastically different. I'm a fourth week P1, so I can't talk too much about it, but we ARE learning dosing of every drug we're learning (so far just pain meds, but I assume that continues) and we haven't had any hard science labs at this point. I sort of assumed the reason they made you take all those science pre-reqs was so they wouldn't have to re-teach it all. I mean, we blitzed through all of gen chem in like 4 weeks.

you shouldn't have called him/her stupid. you just said this yourself "". in order to earn accredition, the schools must change/adjust/fix the curriculum; thus what you're learning now may not be the same as the previous year or the next year.

We have a pharmacy school near us that churns out students that I really question. I've worked with several of them, and I've seen the following:

-Student who asked what he should counsel on for VICODIN (on his rotations!!!)
-P3 with no idea what Levaquin was for or what class it was in
-Student on last rotation who didn't know how to take a transfer

Yikes.

what's wrong with them asking how to counsel on vicodin or to tk a transfer? i had 3 walgreens rotations (community/elective) but all they wanted me to do was to fill b/c their tech hours were cut. regarding the consultation, you could provide them some pointers: timely, effectively, accurately, those i'm still learning from my partners. regarding the transfer, give them the pointers, again.

 

[Zrchrn]

Accreditation and the NAPLEX need to get tougher then. I say this and I'm a 1PD at UF. Judging by the 4th years I think UF does a damn fine job training it's pharmacy students. Seriously people, the deficit is coming to an end, let's start hammering people now.

I say NAPLEX gets tougher. Then 2-3 years later. Any school with <70% pass rate gets to be put on probation for 4 years and gets investigated at it's own cost. After the 4 years if it hasn't got it's act together, accreditation is yanked. This is health care! People can die from foolishness like this. Also, 1 year residencies need to become mandatory. It's a Doctorate program with a ~70 credit hour undergrad requirement and it's not like you don't get paid during residency. (Although I agree a B.S. requirement is stupid).

Finally, community pharmacy needs to look more like a clinic. People don't complain as much about waiting if they get a couch with a bunch of stupid magazines in a carpeted area. They should have to walk in through a door to get to the pharmacy + it's waiting area. If they want go to the grocery part of the store they should walk out the waiting room and go hang there. Driver thru pharmacy should go to hell.

Alas, none of this will happen unless people actually do something. Most of us only vent here on the forums, only a few send letters/emails to congressmen/women or to the APhA etc.

Anyone on these forms up for helping organize movements to fix what is wrong with the Pharmacy practice?

 

[Sparda29]

I think Touro CA does 2 years of rotation (after 2yrs of didactic), can't comment much else on that...anyone here work with Touro CA grads and can comment on the quality of their graduates?

I've been hearing a lot of **** talking in the Philly area about certain schools, won't air that dirty laundry here (yet).

Same at Touro NY, 2 years of rotations after 2 years of didactic. I like this because if you are focused on a certain field of pharmacy you wanna get into after you graduate, it gives you the chance of getting plenty of experience.

 

[Vitamin K]

what's wrong with them asking how to counsel on vicodin or to tk a transfer? i had 3 walgreens rotations (community/elective) but all they wanted me to do was to fill b/c their tech hours were cut. regarding the consultation, you could provide them some pointers: timely, effectively, accurately, those i'm still learning from my partners. regarding the transfer, give them the pointers, again.

What's wrong is that these weren't P1 or P2 students...they were on their rotations. If you don't know side effects and counseling points on vicodin by the time you reach rotations, something is wrong with your education.

As for the transfer, if this was their first rotation, I'd understand...but it wasn't. The student in question was on his LAST rotation, and had been through several rotations previous. I don't care what your rotations site was like, it's your responsibility to use your time there to LEARN. That's what rotations are for. If you're not getting that experience, you need to bring it up to the school.

 

[OldPharmer]

They need to be teaching folks how to speak the English language! Good God ... I have a hard time understanding people when I call for transfers....

 

[Passion4Sci]

Sometimes, during lunch time at the in-patient pharmacy, I swear I am the only person who speaks English (As everyone else is speaking to each other in Korean/Vietnamese).

I don't mind it but it's pretty funny.

They need to be teaching folks how to speak the English language! Good God ... I have a hard time understanding people when I call for transfers....

 

[Sparda29]

What's wrong is that these weren't P1 or P2 students...they were on their rotations. If you don't know side effects and counseling points on vicodin by the time you reach rotations, something is wrong with your education.

As for the transfer, if this was their first rotation, I'd understand...but it wasn't. The student in question was on his LAST rotation, and had been through several rotations previous. I don't care what your rotations site was like, it's your responsibility to use your time there to LEARN. That's what rotations are for. If you're not getting that experience, you need to bring it up to the school.

A lot of stores do transfers differently. Some pharmacies want people to get every piece of information. Personally, all I need is the patients name, date of birth, number of refills, pharmacists name, and the drug/dose/duration, doctor's name + phone #. I rarely ask for **** like last fill date, original fill date, DEA numbers.

 

[Praziquantel86]

A lot of stores do transfers differently. Some pharmacies want people to get every piece of information. Personally, all I need is the patients name, date of birth, number of refills, pharmacists name, and the drug/dose/duration, doctor's name + phone #. I rarely ask for **** like last fill date, original fill date, DEA numbers.

That's what you do. Not what the law requires.

And why do you need the number of refills? New York won't allow you to transfer those. Unless you do that under the table as well...

 

[genesis09]

That's what you do. Not what the law requires.

And why do you need the number of refills? New York won't allow you to transfer those. Unless you do that under the table as well...

In most states, when you do a transfer, you transfer everything. The new pharmacy has control over all the remaining refills.

 

[Praziquantel86]

In most states, when you do a transfer, you transfer everything. The new pharmacy has control over all the remaining refills.

He's in New York, like me. You're not able to transfer refills here.

 

[Sparda29]

That's what you do. Not what the law requires.

And why do you need the number of refills? New York won't allow you to transfer those. Unless you do that under the table as well...

Nope, there's a little box saying amount of original refills, but we don't do refills on transfers in NY, which is a pain in the ass because I'd like to be able to do the inter-CVS Store transfer without calling the other store, but if I don't call the patient loses the rest of their refills since it voids out the script at the other store by doing the transfer.

 

[Sparda29]

"This was called in for nitrofurantoin suspension. Can you call the doctor because it only comes in capsules."

Maybe he meant that you guys only have the capsules in stock.

 

[evilolive]

"The flu shot can give you the flu, right?"

I think this one floored me the most.

 

[meister]

Why does the flu shot one surprise you, I hear that crap from patient after patient. They think the flu vaccine is another gravy-train racket set up by doctors to make more money.

 

[Vitamin K]

Why does the flu shot one surprise you, I hear that crap from patient after patient. They think the flu vaccine is another gravy-train racket set up by doctors to make more money.

Probably the same people that think the government invented AIDS.

 

[evilolive]

Why does the flu shot one surprise you, I hear that crap from patient after patient. They think the flu vaccine is another gravy-train racket set up by doctors to make more money.

Because this was from a pharmacist, not a layman. The simplified concept of putting a little disease into other people as we would describe it to others would be a witch-doctory way of thinking about the science, but honestly, someone who went through pharmacy school should have that very basic understanding.

 

[npage148]

Nope, there's a little box saying amount of original refills, but we don't do refills on transfers in NY, which is a pain in the ass because I'd like to be able to do the inter-CVS Store transfer without calling the other store, but if I don't call the patient loses the rest of their refills since it voids out the script at the other store by doing the transfer.

You use this as justification to break the law? Just becasue CVS's system can't handle doing one transfer at a time, doesn't give you the power to disobey law. How about you just call the store and get the transfer the legal way

 

[Maxpwer222]

I am taking a couple courses on how to be a professional.

Common sense garbage

 

[yatzek]

I wouldn't judge someone by their knowledge of dosing- i don't work in retail or hospital and never intend to memorize it.... i know its about a gram- but stupid things like that you pick up when you dispense it 20 times a day- it is idiotic to sit there and memorize dosing for something like that- read about some concepts instead... i looked it up in 0.5 seconds just then

 

[p-rog]

I wouldn't judge someone by their knowledge of dosing- i don't work in retail or hospital and never intend to memorize it.... i know its about a gram- but stupid things like that you pick up when you dispense it 20 times a day- it is idiotic to sit there and memorize dosing for something like that- read about some concepts instead... i looked it up in 0.5 seconds just then

So, where do you work?

 

[yatzek]

insurance

 

[nafcillin]

or how to say atenolol or metoprolol. that just bugs the crap out of me.

Or that Revatio is another brand name for Sildenafil, which is used for pulmonary hypertension. Some pharmacists don't even know what pulmonary hypertension is.

 

[yatzek]

Some pharmacists don't even know what pulmonary hypertension is.

that you should know... PAH is being dxd more and more and its freakin expensive to tx

 

[Thoughtfulsinner]

that you should know... PAH is being dxd more and more and its freakin expensive to tx

Just saw my first Adcirca prescription today 2 20mg tablets daily. About 1200dollars for a month supply.

 

[CYP3A4]

Accreditation and the NAPLEX need to get tougher then. I say this and I'm a 1PD at UF. Judging by the 4th years I think UF does a damn fine job training it's pharmacy students. Seriously people, the deficit is coming to an end, let's start hammering people now.

I say NAPLEX gets tougher. Then 2-3 years later. Any school with <70% pass rate gets to be put on probation for 4 years and gets investigated at it's own cost. After the 4 years if it hasn't got it's act together, accreditation is yanked. This is health care! People can die from foolishness like this. Also, 1 year residencies need to become mandatory. It's a Doctorate program with a ~70 credit hour undergrad requirement and it's not like you don't get paid during residency. (Although I agree a B.S. requirement is stupid).

Finally, community pharmacy needs to look more like a clinic. People don't complain as much about waiting if they get a couch with a bunch of stupid magazines in a carpeted area. They should have to walk in through a door to get to the pharmacy + it's waiting area. If they want go to the grocery part of the store they should walk out the waiting room and go hang there. Driver thru pharmacy should go to hell.

Alas, none of this will happen unless people actually do something. Most of us only vent here on the forums, only a few send letters/emails to congressmen/women or to the APhA etc.

Anyone on these forms up for helping organize movements to fix what is wrong with the Pharmacy practice?

I agree with almost all othat except the part about residencies being mandatory versus a BS being mandatory. I just graduated and I can say that the students who excelled (including myself) were the ones who had a 4 year degree before hand. As for residencies......why should they be mandatory for retail? Unless retail pharmacy suddenly morphs into something other than what it is now, I think a PharmD degree is more than enough to prepare someone. The technicalities of work flow will vary from store to store but that is something that can be learned on the job.

 

[ffpickle]

insurance

good money? how did you break into that?

 

[Sparda29]

Just saw my first Adcirca prescription today 2 20mg tablets daily. About 1200dollars for a month supply.

Not covered? About 80% of our patients who get Viagra, Cialis, Levitra can get it their months supply for $10.

 

[Thoughtfulsinner]

Not covered? About 80% of our patients who get Viagra, Cialis, Levitra can get it their months supply for $10.

I was quoting the cash price.

 

[eeyore spice]

Well, I feel smarter...

The flu question was the absolute worst, imho, in terms of overall public health.