What to advise a friend with a 3.4 GPA

[cantelopeavocado]

What do you think I should do to advise someone with a 3.4 GPA? He is ORM - a year younger than I and wants to only apply to MD schools. Is there an MCAT score he should shoot for - also should he pursue a post-bacc? My GPA was close to a 4.0, but he thinks he has a shot at "low tier" MDs. My personal experience I have only received interviews at low-tier MDs and I have a 4.0! They said their average GPA (at interview experiences) were 3.7s in both? I know that my MCAT was exactly their mean as well (~88th percentile)

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[B-Lymphocyte]

I don't think it is unreasonable for him to apply for MD as long as he has a good MCAT score, particularly if he applies to his state school. The problem is, if he did not do well in his classes like ochem and Biochem that means he will have to study extra hard for the MCAT to ensure he has a proper grasp of the concepts. If he finds himself unable to get in, something like a post-bacc may be necessary or he could just apply DO. He has options.

 

[cantelopeavocado]

I don't think it is unreasonable for him to apply for MD as long as he has a good MCAT score, particularly if he applies to his state school. The problem is, if he did not do well in his classes like ochem and Biochem that means he will have to study extra hard for the MCAT to ensure he has a proper grasp of the concepts. If he finds himself unable to get in, something like a post-bacc may be necessary or he could just apply DO. He has options.

He's Asian (Taiwanese) from CA. He is attending my public university in NV, however. Does being from CA change anything? I heard those public schools are much more difficult to get into.

 

[Frogger27]

He should shoot for a 528

 

[cantelopeavocado]

He should shoot for a 528

haha 😛

 

[Lawpy]

What do you think I should do to advise someone with a 3.4 GPA? He is ORM and wants to only apply to MD schools. Is there an MCAT score he should shoot for - also should he pursue a post-bacc? My GPA was close to a 4.0, but he thinks he has a shot at "low tier" MDs. My personal experience I have only received interviews at low-tier MDs and I have a 4.0! They said their average GPA (at interview experiences) were 3.7s in both.

To try to be like @mimelim

 

[cantelopeavocado]

To try to be like @mimelim

I'm still confused ._. Apologies for being dense! Do you think a post-bacc is necessary at a 3.4 as ORM from CA?

 

[LizzyM]

Google AAMC Table 24 and download the chart specific to Asian applicants. Show him the likelihood of admission by MCAT score at that GPA. (get the MCAT equivalent chart from SDN to translate the old scoring to the new MCAT).
Recommend that your friend buy access to MSAR... that's going to be the best spent money in this process.

We know that 3.4 is below average but not a GPA where it is impossible to get admitted. So, what else do these successful applicants have. Some might have a post-bac after having earned a low GPA without having taken pre-med courses (i.e. business major, music major). Some will prove that they have the right stuff to be successful by taking additional undergrad coursework or taking a MS or taking a SMP. Some will rock the MCAT (easier said than done with a low GPA) and that might be sufficient but it might suggest that one can do well on a high stakes test but doesn't put in the time over the long haul (homework assignments, quizes, class participation, etc) to earn exceptional grades in classes -- i.e. the typical smart but lazy student).

Is the friend familiar with osteopathic medicine. It might be wise to shadow one and consider whether that is a possible career path given that they are open to more holistic review and put less of an emphasis on grades.

 

[Lawpy]

I'm still confused ._. Apologies for being dense! Do you think a post-bacc is necessary at a 3.4 as ORM from CA?

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/importance-of-volunteer-to-top-medical-school.967861/

a 3.4 is not going to be a problem even for top schools, especially since there were few in the past cycles who demolished their app cycles. what did they do? They crushed their MCAT with 37+/520+, had very strong, impassioned activities (clinical, research, volunteering, leadership etc.), wrote great essays, had strong, personal letters of recommendation, and interviewed well.

it's possible to get into any med school with a 3.4, even from california. A postbacc is not necessary, but you need to work very hard and make sure the MCAT goes very well (ideally well above 516+/34+). And strong ECs and strong essays matter

 

[mimelim]

To try to be like @mimelim

Good luck with that.

What do you think I should do to advise someone with a 3.4 GPA? He is ORM - a year younger than I and wants to only apply to MD schools. Is there an MCAT score he should shoot for - also should he pursue a post-bacc? My GPA was close to a 4.0, but he thinks he has a shot at "low tier" MDs. My personal experience I have only received interviews at low-tier MDs and I have a 4.0! They said their average GPA (at interview experiences) were 3.7s in both? I know that my MCAT was exactly their mean as well (~88th percentile)

Always start here:
https://www.aamc.org/download/321516/data/factstablea24-3.pdf

Asian American applicants with a 3.4 got into medical school ~25% of the time. With a near perfect MCAT score that jumps to ~63% of the time. So, is it possible? Yes. Is it an uphill battle, yes. Is the rest of the package well above average? If yes, it isn't crazy to be applying US MD only. If not, there are better things to be doing with your time.

Edit: beaten by @LizzyM

 

[cantelopeavocado]

Google AAMC Table 24 and download the chart specific to Asian applicants. Show him the likelihood of admission by MCAT score at that GPA. (get the MCAT equivalent chart from SDN to translate the old scoring to the new MCAT).
Recommend that your friend buy access to MSAR... that's going to be the best spent money in this process.

We know that 3.4 is below average but not a GPA where it is impossible to get admitted. So, what else do these successful applicants have. Some might have a post-bac after having earned a low GPA without having taken pre-med courses (i.e. business major, music major). Some will prove that they have the right stuff to be successful by taking additional undergrad coursework or taking a MS or taking a SMP. Some will rock the MCAT (easier said than done with a low GPA) and that might be sufficient but it might suggest that one can do well on a high stakes test but doesn't put in the time over the long haul (homework assignments, quizes, class participation, etc) to earn exceptional grades in classes -- i.e. the typical smart but lazy student).

Is the friend familiar with osteopathic medicine. It might be wise to shadow one and consider whether that is a possible career path given that they are open to more holistic review and put less of an emphasis on grades.

He was aiming for a 508!! And yes, I told him to look into that especially since I'm not sure what his science GPA is (I believe it falls below a 3.4!) He said "DO schools are not schools" despite what I did advise him. Thank you so much!

 

[cantelopeavocado]

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/importance-of-volunteer-to-top-medical-school.967861/

a 3.4 is not going to be a problem even for top schools, especially since there were few in the past cycles who demolished their app cycles. what did they do? They crushed their MCAT with 37+/520+, had very strong, impassioned activities (clinical, research, volunteering, leadership etc.), wrote great essays, had strong, personal letters of recommendation, and interviewed well.

it's possible to get into any med school with a 3.4, even from california. A postbacc is not necessary, but you need to work very hard and make sure the MCAT goes very well (ideally well above 516+/34+). And strong ECs and strong essays matter

thank you!!!!

 

[cantelopeavocado]

Good luck with that.



Always start here:
https://www.aamc.org/download/321516/data/factstablea24-3.pdf

Asian American applicants with a 3.4 got into medical school ~25% of the time. With a near perfect MCAT score that jumps to ~63% of the time. So, is it possible? Yes. Is it an uphill battle, yes. Is the rest of the package well above average? If yes, it isn't crazy to be applying US MD only. If not, there are better things to be doing with your time.

Edit: beaten by @LizzyM

thank you!!1!

 

[Lawpy]

Good luck with that.

who knows? it can be done

though granted, it's by no means straightforward and requires ideally a good upward GPA trend, strong MCAT, and strong ECs. it's an uphill battle for sure but i don't think doors are closed by the 3.4 alone.

 

[cantelopeavocado]

who knows? it can be done

though granted, it's by no means straightforward and requires ideally a good upward GPA trend, strong MCAT, and strong ECs. it's an uphill battle for sure but i don't think doors are closed by the 3.4 alone.

Ok thank you!!! I will tell him that

 

[Astra]

your friend sounds like maggi 2.0

 

[libertyyne]

It can be done, he needs 515+ to be reasonably competitive. At 515+ applicants with his scores matriculate 57% of the time. What is his ug sgpa. He might benefit from graduating first and then applying to raise his gpa above the 3.5 threshold, even then he would need a stellar mcat to be academically competitive. He would still need to have good ECs.

 

[cantelopeavocado]

It can be done, he needs 515+ to be reasonably competitive. At 515+ applicants with his scores matriculate 57% of the time. What is his ug sgpa. He might benefit from graduating first and then applying to raise his gpa above the 3.5 threshold, even then he would need a stellar mcat to be academically competitive. He would still need to have good ECs.

I think he has below a 3.4 in that one. I'm pretty sure all his As were in the psych classes? I'll have to ask him and show him this thread. I didn't have a 515+ and I recently got accepted to medical school but I did have a 4.0 so I think that helped me. I'm also from NV but he's from CA, so I'm sure there are a lot of factors he will have to take into consideration here. I'm not sure how he is going to do next semester, so I'll let him know that there are opportunities available. Do you think he should pursue SMP?

 

[BunnyMan17]

Just anecdote but I had a 3.44 when I applied, although my MCAT was 518 and my summer classes bumped it to a 3.5 (which the schools may or may not have gotten). I applied MD and DO and ended up choosing USUHS (MD) Although I'd seriously advise him to apply MD and DO. Which do you want worse? To be a MD or to be a physician? No judgement either way but its something I really had to chew on.

 

[Toutie]

If he went to school in Nevada and/or from CA, he would met the eligibility requirements for the brand new UNLV school of Medicine. So he should definitely look into that school.

 

[cantelopeavocado]

Does your friend have a significant upward or downward trend throughout undergrad?

I'm not aware! I know he had a 2.7 his freshman year, so my guess would be that it improved for him to have a 3.4?

 

[cantelopeavocado]

Just anecdote but I had a 3.44 when I applied, although my MCAT was 518 and my summer classes bumped it to a 3.5 (which the schools may or may not have gotten). I applied MD and DO and ended up choosing USUHS (MD) Although I'd seriously advise him to apply MD and DO. Which do you want worse? To be a MD or to be a physician? No judgement either way but its something I really had to chew on.

Congrats to you!!! That's a great choice. Thank you for your service!!! 🙂 Yeah, that's what I told him. He has yet to take the MCAT or study for it, but he claims that "DOs are not schools" (silly to me) when I actually had a surgeon for my knee injury from cheerleading who was an osteopathic physician.

 

[cantelopeavocado]

If let's say his GPA went from 2.7 to 3.2 to 3.7 to 4.0 then I think he is very much in the running for MD schools, the reverse not being the same outcome.

If his GPA stayed around a 3.3-3.5 throughout undergrad, I think that he will need an extra strong application in all other areas.

He has not received a 3.7-4.0 in any semester (3.65 is what gets us published Dean's List in my university)

He's a little concerned about doing an SMP since I believe his science gpa is the low gpa, but I wasn't sure what to advise in this regard. The school I attend isn't known for its academic rigor exactly.

 

[BunnyMan17]

Congrats to you!!! That's a great choice. Thank you for your service!!! 🙂 Yeah, that's what I told him. He has yet to take the MCAT or study for it, but he claims that "DOs are not schools" (silly to me) when I actually had a surgeon for my knee injury from cheerleading who was an osteopathic physician.

Thanks! And well if that's the way your friend sees there not much to be done about that. Best of luck to him and congrats on your acceptance!

 

[libertyyne]

I think he has below a 3.4 in that one. I'm pretty sure all his As were in the psych classes? I'll have to ask him and show him this thread. I didn't have a 515+ and I recently got accepted to medical school but I did have a 4.0 so I think that helped me. I'm also from NV but he's from CA, so I'm sure there are a lot of factors he will have to take into consideration here. I'm not sure how he is going to do next semester, so I'll let him know that there are opportunities available. Do you think he should pursue SMP?

SMPs are generally a waste of money. California is a fairly competitive state to be from, and being asian subtracts roughly 1 LizzyM point. Let me put it like this. It is very unlikely he will matriculate to any cali school without a 515+. It is still roughly a 50/50 shot if he matriculates at all with a 515.

\\
If he Scores a 508

He looks worse.

If your friend has a strong upward trend the last two years he should be in a better situation.

A postbac might be the best option if he doesnt get in the first time and does not want to go DO. And it is difficult because during the post bac anything short of a 3.8 will look bad and each class has less and less impact on total GPAs.

What the above charts dont tell you, is the asian applicants that are matriculating at the lower end of that bell curve are likely matriculating to their state schools in less competitive states.

 

[summergirl]

I have two 98th percentile MCATs (1st one expired) and 3 full years of As, and I can only get a very small number of interviews from lower tier schools. GPA matters, a lot. I am applying international though, but being from CA is not that much better imo. My advice to him: tread carefully.

 

[libertyyne]

Here is a list of schools where he would be competitive with a 508 mcat. (competitive meaning being above the 10th percentile of GPA scores and being at the average or above of LizzyMwhere the schools accept greater than 25% of their class from OOS. )
Meharry
Howard
San Juan Bautista



Here is a list if he has a 515.
Virginia Tech
EVMS
Frank H Netter
Wright State University
Rosalind Franklin Chicago
Michigan State
Cooper Medical School Rowan
Meharry
Howard
San Juan Bautista
New York Medical College
Wake Forest
Oregon Health
George Town
University of Arizona
Rush
VCU
University of Arizona College of Medicine

 

[cantelopeavocado]

Here is a list of schools where he would be competitive with a 508 mcat. (competitive meaning being above the 10th percentile of GPA scores and being at the average or above of LizzyMwhere the schools accept greater than 25% of their class from OOS. )
Meharry
Howard
San Juan Bautista



Here is a list if he has a 515.
Virginia Tech
EVMS
Frank H Netter
Wright State University
Rosalind Franklin Chicago
Michigan State
Cooper Medical School Rowan
Meharry
Howard
San Juan Bautista
New York Medical College
Wake Forest
Oregon Health
George Town
University of Arizona
Rush
VCU
University of Arizona College of Medicine

Thank you Libertynne. You have been very helpful. I have been trying to encourage him to go to a DO school or at least apply as backups, but he won't budge so I guess I'll let him steer his own course. n=1 I knew a girl with a 3.4 and a 33 MCAT who is now attending an MD this year (unranked also Taiwanese) but she's from Nevada, so not sure how that factors in.

 

[libertyyne]

Thank you Libertynne. You have been very helpful. I have been trying to encourage him to go to a DO school or at least apply as backups, but he won't budge so I guess I'll let him steer his own course. n=1 I knew a girl with a 3.4 and a 33 MCAT who is now attending an MD this year (unranked also Taiwanese) but she's from Nevada, so not sure how that factors in.

33=~ 514. Nevada is a better state to be from and is almost 2~ LizzyM points below the California Median.

 

[cantelopeavocado]

33=~ 514. Nevada is a better state to be from and is almost 2~ LizzyM points below the California Median.

I can't really understand this chart's purpose unfortunately :/

 

[libertyyne]

I can't really understand this chart's purpose unfortunately :/

It is a confusing chart. Green means easier and it is sorted by ascending LizzyM points. The mcat rank is just a comparison in terms of where the state's average MCAT is in an ascending list where 1 is lowest mcat total score in the group and 53 is the highest. So the top of the list has the lowest academic requirements in terms of lizzyM as an average and the bottom has the highest. If your state is on the lower end of the list it means the lizzyM is higher to then the average national lizzyM for matriculants and if it is on the top it is easier. The percent matriculating just tells you what percent of that states applicants matriculated.

The chart was just meant to show that nevada has a lower average LizzyM compared to California and it also has a lower average MCAT of matriculants compared to California.

 

[cantelopeavocado]

It is a confusing chart. Green means easier and it is sorted by ascending LizzyM points. The mcat rank is just a comparison in terms of where the state's average MCAT is in an ascending list where 1 is lowest mcat total score in the group and 53 is the highest. So the top of the list has the lowest academic requirements in terms of lizzyM as an average and the bottom has the highest. If your state is on the lower end of the list it means the lizzyM is higher to then the average national lizzyM for matriculants and if it is on the top it is easier. The percent matriculating just tells you what percent of that states applicants matriculated.

The chart was just meant to show that nevada has a lower average LizzyM compared to California and it also has a lower average MCAT of matriculants compared to California.

Thank you for your explanation

 

[Goro]

1) Apply to his/her state MD school
2) Invest in MSAR Online and target private MD schools whose GPAs have 3.4 below or at the 10th %ile. Also make sure they read the Acceptance Information pages.
3) MCAT will need to be as high as possible, but this alone might not offset the GPAs. Great discordance between GPA and MCAT more often raises eyebrows.
4) Engage in service to others less fortunate
5) Tell them that beggars can't be choosers, and thus they can't rule out DO schools.
6) Do not consider a SMP/post-bac unless an app cycle has been fruitless.

What do you think I should do to advise someone with a 3.4 GPA? He is ORM - a year younger than I and wants to only apply to MD schools. Is there an MCAT score he should shoot for - also should he pursue a post-bacc? My GPA was close to a 4.0, but he thinks he has a shot at "low tier" MDs. My personal experience I have only received interviews at low-tier MDs and I have a 4.0! They said their average GPA (at interview experiences) were 3.7s in both? I know that my MCAT was exactly their mean as well (~88th percentile)

EDIT: I just read through and saw your post below. Tell to work on his Plan B as he doesn't seem to make good choices. He will have to learn the hard way.

He was aiming for a 508!! And yes, I told him to look into that especially since I'm not sure what his science GPA is (I believe it falls below a 3.4!) He said "DO schools are not schools" despite what I did advise him. Thank you so much!

 

[efle]

Tell him to bust his ass preparing for the MCAT, and then come back to assess with a score (and sGPA!). What makes sense for him hinges on that test.

 

[TRPMinus]

He was aiming for a 508!! And yes, I told him to look into that especially since I'm not sure what his science GPA is (I believe it falls below a 3.4!) He said "DO schools are not schools" despite what I did advise him. Thank you so much!

Then tell him "asians with 3.4/508 aren't doctors"!

 

[cantelopeavocado]

1) Apply to his/her state MD school
2) Invest in MSAR Online and target private MD schools whose GPAs have 3.4 below or at the 10th %ile. Also make sure they read the Acceptance Information pages.
3) MCAT will need to be as high as possible, but this alone might not offset the GPAs. Great discordance between GPA and MCAT more often raises eyebrows.
4) Engage in service to others less fortunate
5) Tell them that beggars can't be choosers, and thus they can't rule out DO schools.
6) Do not consider a SMP/post-bac unless an app cycle has been fruitless.




EDIT: I just read through and saw your post below. Tell to work on his Plan B as he doesn't seem to make good choices. He will have to learn the hard way.

He was aiming for a 508!! And yes, I told him to look into that especially since I'm not sure what his science GPA is (I believe it falls below a 3.4!) He said "DO schools are not schools" despite what I did advise him. Thank you so much!

Thank you!! And by fruitless you mean no DO acceptances as well? Thank you. He thinks his ECs are very good, but I've told him to look into the less fortunate as "clubs" are things everyone does in college. I'll let him know. Thank you goro

 

[cantelopeavocado]

Tell him to bust his ass preparing for the MCAT, and then come back to assess with a score (and sGPA!). What makes sense for him hinges on that test.

Yep, that's what I've said, but he hasn't started studying yet and he will take it in January so I guess we'll wait to see how he does. I've given him what materials worked for me to get a good score (with my GPA) thank you!

 

[Goro]

Well, your friend was against going the DO route, so I was talking about an MD app cycle. If you can manage to get him into considering the DO route, he should consider retaking any F/D/C science coursework, and utilize AACOMAS grade replacement.

In terms of ECs, tell him to get off campus and out of his comfort zone.

Thank you!! And by fruitless you mean no DO acceptances as well? Thank you. He thinks his ECs are very good, but I've told him to look into the less fortunate as "clubs" are things everyone does in college. I'll let him know. Thank you goro

 

[cantelopeavocado]

Well, your friend was against going the DO route, so I was talking about an MD app cycle.

In terms of ECs, tell him to get off campus and out of his comfort zone.

Yes, he is, but our school advisor suggested DO for him. Thank you!! That makes sense, and yes, I've told him that as well, but he says his ECs are decent enough. I'll try talking to him again and sending this thread to him

 

[efle]

he hasn't started studying yet and he will take it in January

He's on track for disappointment, cramming your entire prep into winter break is a great way to not be an MD. Most people need a summer or a semester

 

[smiley612]

Hi everyone,

Just checking in since I'm a little further along: ORM CA Resident with 3.39 (3.39 BCPM) GPA (AFTER post-bacc), 522MCAT (balanced), completed 36 MD secondaries by the end of August (Do you guys need a school list?), but still 0 II's + ~10R. I'm starting to think about next cycle now. Any tips?

 

[sfkniner81]

interested to know as well

Hi everyone,

Just checking in since I'm a little further along: ORM CA Resident with 3.39 (3.39 BCPM) GPA (AFTER post-bacc), 522MCAT (balanced), completed 36 MD secondaries by the end of August (Do you guys need a school list?), but still 0 II's + ~10R. I'm starting to think about next cycle now. Any tips?

 

[BunnyMan17]

Hi everyone,

Just checking in since I'm a little further along: ORM CA Resident with 3.39 (3.39 BCPM) GPA (AFTER post-bacc), 522MCAT (balanced), completed 36 MD secondaries by the end of August (Do you guys need a school list?), but still 0 II's + ~10R. I'm starting to think about next cycle now. Any tips?

What are your EC's like? n=1 but they seem to go a long way if you're one of the borderline candidates. Also I would've had those secondaries in sooner. Like within a week of getting them in ~July. I already had most of my interviews lined up by mid August.

 

[handsanitizer2021]

What do you think I should do to advise someone with a 3.4 GPA? He is ORM - a year younger than I and wants to only apply to MD schools. Is there an MCAT score he should shoot for - also should he pursue a post-bacc? My GPA was close to a 4.0, but he thinks he has a shot at "low tier" MDs. My personal experience I have only received interviews at low-tier MDs and I have a 4.0! They said their average GPA (at interview experiences) were 3.7s in both? I know that my MCAT was exactly their mean as well (~88th percentile)

Would I have a chance if I have a 3.4 at a top 10 grade deflating school? Even if I have 300+ research hours, 200+ hospital volunteering, and an on exec for two clubs? I haven’t taken the MCAT yet but assume a good but not exceptional score. Let me know what y’all think