What to do to be competitive at top psych programs?

[Smallville86]

Hey guys,

I apologize if these "chance me" threads rankle you, but I'm kind of fatigued from "don't worry, it's psych, it's not competitive" comments I've heard from others.

In general, I was wondering what stats/achievements are necessary to be competitive at quote-unquote "top" psych residencies? I understand that psychiatry in general is not as competitive as say, orthopedic surgery or dermatology, but I've also heard that high-powered programs, namely: MGH, Columbia, UCSF, UCLA- are competitive to get an interview from, much less get into. Is this an exhaustive list of extremely competitive residencies, or are there others?

Me specifically, I don't really know where I stand in the scheme of things. I got 220s on Step 1, high passes/passes (one low pass in Surgery ) but no straight-up honors on clerkships at a top 15 med school, and one first-author manuscript so far (a review article) with two other first-author manuscripts to be submitted soon, plus a first-author abstract and presentation at an international conference, and a Master's degree in Neuroscience outside of med school. I have not taken Step 2 yet, nor have I taken my Psych AI yet, though this will be done by residency time.

If you have the time, any advice you have to offer would be greatly appreciated! And if this is too personal a post, then please let me know and I can remove it.

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[TexasPhysician]

Keep publishing. The academic big wigs like that.

 

[LimbicResponse]

Get a time machine, go back in time . Do better on step 1, honor medicine and psych and you'll get an interview most likely.

Otherwise- Look at other programs that are still great but slightly less competitive. Penn, Longwood, Yale for example. (I'm east coast biased)

An away rotation at one of the top five programs programs during which you get lucky and meet a big time attending while somehow making all the residents happy ( let me tell you, not easy) and they fight for you to get an interview because they already worked with you and you fit so well. I would say UCLA has a friendlier group of residents than MGH or Columbia. By friendlier , I mean slightly less elitist.

Still apply to all of the top programs. Who knows ?

 

[twright]

Hey guys,

I apologize if these "chance me" threads rankle you, but I'm kind of fatigued from "don't worry, it's psych, it's not competitive" comments I've heard from others.

In general, I was wondering what stats/achievements are necessary to be competitive at quote-unquote "top" psych residencies? I understand that psychiatry in general is not as competitive as say, orthopedic surgery or dermatology, but I've also heard that high-powered programs, namely: MGH, Columbia, UCSF, UCLA- are competitive to get an interview from, much less get into. Is this an exhaustive list of extremely competitive residencies, or are there others?

Me specifically, I don't really know where I stand in the scheme of things. I got 220s on Step 1, high passes/passes (one low pass in Surgery ) but no straight-up honors on clerkships at a top 15 med school, and one first-author manuscript so far (a review article) with two other first-author manuscripts to be submitted soon, plus a first-author abstract and presentation at an international conference, and a Master's degree in Neuroscience outside of med school. I have not taken Step 2 yet, nor have I taken my Psych AI yet, though this will be done by residency time.

If you have the time, any advice you have to offer would be greatly appreciated! And if this is too personal a post, then please let me know and I can remove it.

You probably would not get an interview at UCSF, Columbia, MGH. UCLA, Duke, UNC, Longwood, UW, UM, etc are all great programs that are probably more within your range.

The review paper doesn't really help as it is not original research.

Step 1 is fine but it won't get you an interview at the most competitive programs.

No honors is pretty bad.

The Master's in Neuroscience doesn't really help. If anything it is likely to be perceived as a marker for (a) you dropped out of a PhD program (not necessarily a bad thing if you just had a change of heart - just don't expect it to help); or (b) you went to one of those pre-MD post-bacc sweatshop programs (eg CWRU, BU) because your undergrad GPA couldn't get you into a US medical school.

 

[shan564]

UCLA, Duke, UNC, Longwood, UW, UM, etc are all great programs that are probably more within your range.

There are also some great programs in the flyover states where you'd be competitive. If you're interested in neuroscience (I'm guessing you are, based on your Master's degree) and are looking for a "brand name" program (I'm guessing you are, based on the word "top" in the title of this thread), take a close look at WashU, Mayo, Cleveland Clinic, and Northwestern - they're all fairly neuroscience-oriented. There are also great programs at Baylor, UTSW, Iowa, Indiana, Maryland, Colorado, Emory, MUSC, and UCSD. You'd be competitive at any of those programs.

 

[vistaril]

You probably would not get an interview at UCSF, Columbia, MGH. UCLA, Duke, UNC, Longwood, UW, UM, etc are all great programs that are probably more within your range.
.

Im not familar with a lot of those programs. But UNC is one program I am fairly familar with(knowing people there now, knowing people who recently graduated from there, and knowing even more people who interviewed there). And I think it is y likely he would get an interview at UNC.

 

[tobi44]

The responses to OP are more discouraging then I thought they would be. Most always, posters will say you are competitive at all psych programs as long as you are a decent applicant with no red flags. Can someone point out why people are telling the OP (who seems to be a good applicant) should lower his expectations?

 

[Salpingo]

Hey guys,

I apologize if these "chance me" threads rankle you, but I'm kind of fatigued from "don't worry, it's psych, it's not competitive" comments I've heard from others.

In general, I was wondering what stats/achievements are necessary to be competitive at quote-unquote "top" psych residencies? I understand that psychiatry in general is not as competitive as say, orthopedic surgery or dermatology, but I've also heard that high-powered programs, namely: MGH, Columbia, UCSF, UCLA- are competitive to get an interview from, much less get into. Is this an exhaustive list of extremely competitive residencies, or are there others?

Me specifically, I don't really know where I stand in the scheme of things. I got 220s on Step 1, high passes/passes (one low pass in Surgery ) but no straight-up honors on clerkships at a top 15 med school, and one first-author manuscript so far (a review article) with two other first-author manuscripts to be submitted soon, plus a first-author abstract and presentation at an international conference, and a Master's degree in Neuroscience outside of med school. I have not taken Step 2 yet, nor have I taken my Psych AI yet, though this will be done by residency time.

If you have the time, any advice you have to offer would be greatly appreciated! And if this is too personal a post, then please let me know and I can remove it.

I think you have a pretty decent shot. Your school's status will at least get you a second look, as will your publication in an area you've been consistently interested in. I think Columbia and MGH would be particularly interested in your passion for research. I would try to figure out what kept you from getting honors in psych and internal medicine (are those hard clerkships at your school?). You're in a situation where an away rotation could put you over the top, but you have to figure out what held you back in the past.

Good luck!

 

[strangeglove]

The responses to OP are more discouraging then I thought they would be. Most always, posters will say you are competitive at all psych programs as long as you are a decent applicant with no red flags. Can someone point out why people are telling the OP (who seems to be a good applicant) should lower his expectations?

Because while he is a good applicant he is probably not good enough for the most competitive programs. Research (even a PhD with high profile pubs) won't guarantee an interview at these programs without honors in at least psychiatry, and preferably internal medicine, too. These programs value clinical ability more than research, which is why not everyone who matches at them is a researcher, but nearly all have excellent clinical grades/recommendations. Also, this notion that "you've done some research, so you'll match anywhere you want because psychiatry isn't that competitive" does a disservice to applicants and devalues our specialty. While psychiatry is as a whole less competitive than most other specialties, it is just as competitive at the top.

 

[Smallville86]

Dear all,

While I do agree the original responses to my first post were a bit... difficult to stomach at first, I greatly appreciate the degree of honesty in the reply. I agree in general, that the top programs are just as competitive as any other field's top programs, and that it does our field a disservice and cheapens psychiatry as a whole by saying anywhere is fair game. What I was hoping for, through my experience, was kind of to set a ground floor for what is expected to be competitive at these top programs.

Just some clarifications- I Honored in my original psychiatry rotation, it's just our school combines Neuro/Psych, and because of a Pass on the Neuro shelf, I got High Pass overall in that block. My Honors in Psych though, is noted on both my Dean's Letter and from my LOR from that particular attending. Also, one of my other LORs is from an IM attending who gave me H for her portion of IM.

The general point to follow up from here, is whether in screening applicants for interviews, do psych programs (particularly the competitive ones) look at Dean's Letters and LORs, or simply look at the eRAS grade printout and Step scores?

 

[Leo Aquarius]

This won't help you much, but some programs screen and others don't. Where I'm at, we have way more applicants than we can review thoroughly. I do attend a program with a well-recognized name, so that has something to do with it I imagine.

 

[BobA]

While I agree with the others that matching at MGH, Columbia and UCSF would be unlikely (from my limited knowledge base - only the PDs from those programs know for sure), I'd also like to say that the career trajectory of someone from "next tier" programs (Longwood, Cambridge, Penn, etc) is indistinguishable from a graduate of the ever-so-slightly more elite programs. If you interview well (friendly, professional) you will almost certainly match at one of these places.

Don't worry yourself about it. What's done is done, and you're going to match at a great program and have a great career - there's plenty of time left for you to be a leader in psychiatry if that's what you want.

 

[vistaril]

While psychiatry is as a whole less competitive than most other specialties, it is just as competitive at the top.

nonsense.....I know plenty of med students with solid/good stats(230ish and above steps, nice grades but not AOA, some research but not stars, mostly honors but not rotation superduperstuds) who get interviews and match at the programs always thrown out as the 'top'.

Those same people would struggly mightily to match *anywhere* at some of the more competitive specialties....never mind at the top programs in the country in those specialties.

And when someone points this out, it's not devaluing psychiatry.

 

[BobA]

The general point to follow up from here, is whether in screening applicants for interviews, do psych programs (particularly the competitive ones) look at Dean's Letters and LORs, or simply look at the eRAS grade printout and Step scores?

No one knows the answer to this - while program PDs and maybe chief residents know how their program does it, they would not share this information with anyone else.

 

[Daedra22]

So everyone seems to be placing a lot of value on honoring psych, which is making me nervous. While I scored very well on my raw percentage for my psych rotation (>90), my school is pass/fail only for all rotations. Is this going to put me at a particular disadvantage? I find it frustrating that I have worked very hard in third year but due to the pass/fail system it's not going to be readily apparent on my transcript.

 

[Leo Aquarius]

So everyone seems to be placing a lot of value on honoring psych, which is making me nervous. While I scored very well on my raw percentage for my psych rotation (>90), my school is pass/fail only for all rotations. Is this going to put me at a particular disadvantage? I find it frustrating that I have worked very hard in third year but due to the pass/fail system it's not going to be readily apparent on my transcript.

I didn't honor psych and ended up in Cali at a strong program.

Don't worry, the reviewers will see that all rotations are P/F and look to what your evaluators wrote about you. That's what counts. Your efforts will be readily apparent because they read what your psych evals say, especially those. I know because I didn't honor psych due to similar reasons but my evals were glowing.

 

[Daedra22]

I didn't honor psych and ended up in Cali at a strong program.

Don't worry, the reviewers will see that all rotations are P/F and look to what your evaluators wrote about you. That's what counts. Your efforts will be readily apparent because they read what your psych evals say, especially those. I know because I didn't honor psych due to similar reasons but my evals were glowing.

That's really good to hear! Thank you.

 

[MiddleRoad]

OP:
Purely anecdotal (N=1), but I interviewed at the 4 programs you mentioned with a Step 1 in the 230's, 1 publication, and honors in all but 2 of the 3rd year rotations (high passes in OB/Gyn and primary care).

I would definitely apply to all of those places, if I were you. Be sure to highlight what makes you a unique candidate in your CV and personal statement.

Good luck.

 

[schimel04]

nonsense.....I know plenty of med students with solid/good stats(230ish and above steps, nice grades but not AOA, some research but not stars, mostly honors but not rotation superduperstuds who get interviews and match at the programs always thrown out as the 'top'.

Those same people would struggly mightily to match *anywhere* at some of the more competitive specialties....never mind at the top programs in the country in those specialties.

And when someone points this out, it's not devaluing psychiatry.

I haven't started third year yet, but if someone is getting mostly honors at my school in their rotations, I would count them as star. I know our IM rotation, fewer then 20% get honors.

Hearing how important rotations are makes me worried. Its not really something you can do better at by studying more. From what I hear, its more learning quickly on the job, applying knowledge and being liked by your attendings. None of which are my strong points.

 

[billypilgrim37]

I haven't started third year yet, but if someone is getting mostly honors at my school in their rotations, I would count them as star. I know our IM rotation, fewer then 20% get honors.

Hearing how important rotations are makes me worried. Its not really something you can do better at by studying more. From what I hear, its more learning quickly on the job, applying knowledge and being liked by your attendings. None of which are my strong points.

We similarly only gave honors to about 15-20% in medicine, and more than 10% of my class matched in ophthalmology. I definitely didn't get honors in medicine, and I still had interview invites from all those programs.

 

[notdeadyet]

nonsense.....I know plenty of med students with solid/good stats(230ish and above steps, nice grades but not AOA, some research but not stars, mostly honors but not rotation superduperstuds) who get interviews and match at the programs always thrown out as the 'top'.

There is some truth to this.

The last data I saw on the subject showed that 4.6% of allopathic medical graduates applying to psychiatry were AOA. That comes to about 30 in the entire match.

Now, AOA isn't the end-all-be-all, but since nomination requires that you be ranked in the top quartile of your class (eventually whittled down to what the school considers to be the top 15% of students), it's a better yardstick than most. Compared to other specialties, AOA percentage is lower than almost any other specialty (except PM&R at 3.9%). It's actually shockingly high at most of the competitive ones like Derm (50%). Family is 6.5% and Peds is 11.6%.

So given that there are only 30 allopathic grads in the entire match, even if they all went to top 5 programs (which is far from certain), you still couldn't fill the entire top 5 programs with people who were top 15% in their class.

So you are not seeing the same objective level of student applying at the top psych programs applying to the top derm programs or the like.

But the most important takeaway is who gives a $hit about class rank, step 1, or AOA status? A few days after the Match and it's a quickly fading memory. Competitive psych programs are competitive because lots and lots of psychiatry applicants want those spots. That's what makes them competitive, not the fact that you have a different level of qualifications in another specialty. Nonissue.

 

[vistaril]

There is some truth to this.

The last data I saw on the subject showed that 4.6% of allopathic medical graduates applying to psychiatry were AOA. That comes to about 30 in the entire match.

Now, AOA isn't the end-all-be-all, but since nomination requires that you be ranked in the top quartile of your class (eventually whittled down to what the school considers to be the top 15% of students), it's a better yardstick than most. Compared to other specialties, AOA percentage is lower than almost any other specialty (except PM&R at 3.9%). It's actually shockingly high at most of the competitive ones like Derm (50%). Family is 6.5% and Peds is 11.6%.

So given that there are only 30 allopathic grads in the entire match, even if they all went to top 5 programs (which is far from certain), you still couldn't fill the entire top 5 programs with people who were top 15% in their class.

So you are not seeing the same objective level of student applying at the top psych programs applying to the top derm programs or the like.

But the most important takeaway is who gives a $hit about class rank, step 1, or AOA status? A few days after the Match and it's a quickly fading memory. Competitive psych programs are competitive because lots and lots of psychiatry applicants want those spots. That's what makes them competitive, not the fact that you have a different level of qualifications in another specialty. Nonissue.

eh...I think sometimes we overstate the number of applicants(vs spots) at some psych programs.

There are only what....550(?) or so american allopathic grads matching in psychiatry every year. Now when comparing those to the number of spots at (insert competitive psych program here) it's important to remember a few things:

1) the more relevant number is not # of spots at UCLA or Columbia or whatever but how far they usually go down their match list
2) applicants really don't *want* to go to that program(relative to most of the other programs on their list) in most cases. So if out of the 550 american allo grads 165 applied to Columbia(and I have no idea what the real number is), even of those 165 you still have a ton who really don't prefer columbia. Many are more favorable to the west coast and are most likely thinking they will wind up at those programs. Many just want to go to Cornell or a Harvard program or whatever instead. Many are from Texas and their wife/husband is in texas and can't fathom the idea of living more than a few hundred miles away from their family and so they may interview at Columbia but are pretty much thinking they are going to stay in Texas.(and no not 'many' fit this texas description but multiply that times a bunch of other regions in the country)

The point is that when you really go deeper, the numbers game even at the 8 or so most competitive psych programs in the country really aren't all that insurmountable for many applicants.

 

[Salpingo]

nonsense.....I know plenty of med students with solid/good stats(230ish and above steps, nice grades but not AOA, some research but not stars, mostly honors but not rotation superduperstuds) who get interviews and match at the programs always thrown out as the 'top'.

Those same people would struggly mightily to match *anywhere* at some of the more competitive specialties....never mind at the top programs in the country in those specialties.

And when someone points this out, it's not devaluing psychiatry.

Nah. Looking at Charting the Outcomes, having a Step 1 in the 230s puts you in pretty good shape for matching even in derm. Not sure how you'd do the regression analysis (right? regression analysis?) to see how many of those people were able to compensate by being AOA, but I think anecdotally, if you bust your hump, the stats you mention won't keep you out of any specialty, except maybe plastics (and even then, you can go from gen surg --> plastics). That might mean taking a year off the grind out some pubs, but its doable. I know plenty of mediocre candidates that would have trouble matching into Columbia or MGH psych, but got into lower-tier, competitive-specialty programs by doing outside rotations or quality research. I don't know what compels people to put all that work so they can look up peoples urethras, down their schnozz or at their disgusting, eroded flesh. They probably wonder the same thing about me when I tell them I spend my weekends dodging feces flung at me in the ED.

Anyway, to the OP, I still don't think you'll be screened out coming from a top 15 med school (especially looking at your school's match list). I'd just focus on figuring out what makes you an interesting person, or, like I mentioned earlier, doing an away rotation at a program that interests you. The latter will almost guarantee you an interview, provided you don't do something like lead an inpatient unit in an uprising.

 

[strangeglove]

AOA reflects only preclinical grades, if I recall. The top psychiatry programs, eg MGH and Columbia, don't consider these grades as much as they consider your clinical work. They want good doctors, not people who just know a lot about biochemistry and anatomy and test well. Same for Step 1. And they care about medicine, surgery, pediatrics, OB-Gyn, which are more intensive and where you tend to have more responsibility. By the way, these are programs with relatively hard internships, and they want people who can hack this, and even thrive under such conditions.

 

[notdeadyet]

AOA reflects only preclinical grades, if I recall.

Not necessarily. The requirements for AOA are based on class rank. For those inducted in MS3 year, it's usually class rank based on pre-clinical grades and potentially Step 1 scores and potentially some clinical grades (class rank criteria is determined by the school). For those inducted in MS4 year, it's based on third year clinical grades and potentially preclinical grades and potentially Step 1 scores.

Again, AOA criteria is school dependent, but it's based on how high students are ranked in their class. Many schools (and more each year) are P/F for preclinical years so they don't actually matter at all.

 

[NYCMS2]

What constitutes, say, the most competitive list, down to a number that really doesn't matter? Is it only the "top 5" or do people need to know the "top 25" programs?

I am not particularly interested in the competitiveness factor, or in the high demand NYC, NE corridor, California progs - my interests are geographic - but I do need to know just how competitive some of the programs I am interested in are. Like: UNC, MUSC, USC Palmetto...Vandy, Emory...

I gather that these are highly regarded, but how far down a "most competitive" residencies list are they, and how much should an average psych applicant with no red flags but also no real stellar achievements (no honors, mostly high passes) at a Top 20 med school (no better than middle of class, 210-ish Step 1) with no research (in med school) but a pretty interesting personal back story that makes for unique personal statement.

In other words, how far down do I need to apply to have some super solid backup programs in the South? Augusta? Birmingham? Mobile? Getting pretty paranoid about this entire process - SDN, starting with pre allo, is so heavily skewed to the most competitive schools and programs, and it is easy to lose perspective here when your sights are set a tad lower for personal, geog reasons.

Would be helpful to know the "best of" the less competitive programs in the South and Southwest...and any to avoid.

Thanks.

 

[billypilgrim37]

Like: UNC, MUSC, USC Palmetto...Vandy, Emory...

I gather that these are highly regarded, but how far down a "most competitive" residencies list are they, and how much should an average psych applicant with no red flags but also no real stellar achievements (no honors, mostly high passes) at a Top 20 med school (no better than middle of class, 210-ish Step 1) with no research (in med school) but a pretty interesting personal back story that makes for unique personal statement.

You sound extremely competitive for those programs. Don't worry. Especially the fact that you can list five of them. Duke isn't that much more competitive, you could include it. The South is the best bargain in all of psychiatry for quality/difficulty of match ratio. Now, the issue with that is that your colleagues are also going to be less decorated, which may or may not have any real significance.

UK, UofL, UAB, and UVA are probably excellent "backup" schools to consider. Folks in Ohio still have a southern accent up until about Dayton, so you could reasonably include Cincinnati. But you could just interview at the 5 you listed and be okay 95% of the time.

 

[vistaril]

What constitutes, say, the most competitive list, down to a number that really doesn't matter? Is it only the "top 5" or do people need to know the "top 25" programs?

I am not particularly interested in the competitiveness factor, or in the high demand NYC, NE corridor, California progs - my interests are geographic - but I do need to know just how competitive some of the programs I am interested in are. Like: UNC, MUSC, USC Palmetto...Vandy, Emory...

I gather that these are highly regarded, but how far down a "most competitive" residencies list are they, and how much should an average psych applicant with no red flags but also no real stellar achievements (no honors, mostly high passes) at a Top 20 med school (no better than middle of class, 210-ish Step 1) with no research (in med school) but a pretty interesting personal back story that makes for unique personal statement.

In other words, how far down do I need to apply to have some super solid backup programs in the South? Augusta? Birmingham? Mobile? Getting pretty paranoid about this entire process - SDN, starting with pre allo, is so heavily skewed to the most competitive schools and programs, and it is easy to lose perspective here when your sights are set a tad lower for personal, geog reasons.

Would be helpful to know the "best of" the less competitive programs in the South and Southwest...and any to avoid.

Thanks.

I think, with the *possible* exception of Duke, you're going to be a very attractive candidate at any of the southeast programs....and you would have a shot there too. I interviewed at all the programs you listed that you like. I really wonder about the quality of the training at USC(Columbia) meaning do you get enough decent cases. It almost seemed like the residents there were shadowing the attendings at different sites. good schedule, basically no call, but not a lot of autonomy imo. Looking at the backups you listed(and you dont need any backups), UAB would love to have you and they have some strengths(ER psychiatry) and weaknesses. The programs in Mobile and Augusta I wouldn't apply to, especially the program in Mobile. That's a program with a very community feel and they get almost exclusively IMG residents.

IMO the difference between resident quality at many of the programs you listed and the 'top' programs is the variablilty in abilities of the residents. I know at my program we have several people who are very bright and on paper(things like step1 scores, grades, etc) could have gone to top 10 programs had they wanted to leave the area for various reasons. Then we have other residents who are not anything close to that.

 

[NYCMS2]

Thanks for the reality check, guys. This is a tough process, much harder to find out info about residencies (and what to consider in applying and picking) compared to the med school app process which is actually funny since all med schools teach the same things without a whole lot to differentiate them, although premeds have all kinds of strong ideas about what matters. All the damn thinking I put into applying to med school is kind of a joke to me now.

 

[Bartelby]

We similarly only gave honors to about 15-20% in medicine, and more than 10% of my class matched in ophthalmology. I definitely didn't get honors in medicine, and I still had interview invites from all those programs.

Exactly. It seemed odd to me that getting a 240 step score (prob around 82 percentile, http://www.bigbri.net/?p=95, considering mean 222 and SD around 22) is really impressive but if you are not in the top 18% of your very competitive class for medicine (where at least half of the class feels they *need* the A and might be right) it is considered a warning sign that you might not be good enough clinically. I never quite got that.

 

[A2C2014]

Hey guys,

I apologize if these "chance me" threads rankle you, but I'm kind of fatigued from "don't worry, it's psych, it's not competitive" comments I've heard from others.

In general, I was wondering what stats/achievements are necessary to be competitive at quote-unquote "top" psych residencies? I understand that psychiatry in general is not as competitive as say, orthopedic surgery or dermatology, but I've also heard that high-powered programs, namely: MGH, Columbia, UCSF, UCLA- are competitive to get an interview from, much less get into. Is this an exhaustive list of extremely competitive residencies, or are there others?

Me specifically, I don't really know where I stand in the scheme of things. I got 220s on Step 1, high passes/passes (one low pass in Surgery ) but no straight-up honors on clerkships at a top 15 med school, and one first-author manuscript so far (a review article) with two other first-author manuscripts to be submitted soon, plus a first-author abstract and presentation at an international conference, and a Master's degree in Neuroscience outside of med school. I have not taken Step 2 yet, nor have I taken my Psych AI yet, though this will be done by residency time.

If you have the time, any advice you have to offer would be greatly appreciated! And if this is too personal a post, then please let me know and I can remove it.

To the OP, Your problem can probably be solved by some quick introspection. We all know that clerkship grades are one of the more important considerations programs look at when evaluating residency applicants. What do you think kept you from getting honors in your clerkships? By answering this question and addressing whatever it is that you come up with, you could take a big step toward becoming a stronger applicant. So, what do you think stood between you and an honors grade?

 

[docinabox8888]

To the OP, Your problem can probably be solved by some quick introspection. We all know that clerkship grades are one of the more important considerations programs look at when evaluating residency applicants. What do you think kept you from getting honors in your clerkships? By answering this question and addressing whatever it is that you come up with, you could take a big step toward becoming a stronger applicant. So, what do you think stood between you and an honors grade?

I'd like to echo this. If you didn't honor a *single* clerkship then either 1. there's a knowledge deficiency (which is unlikely given your average step 1 score) or 2. there's a personality quirk that makes you less than likable or 3. you consistently demonstrate behavior that is frowned upon such as being late, leaving early, etc. You need to ask yourself what happened and honestly question these things.

 

[BobA]

What constitutes, say, the most competitive list, down to a number that really doesn't matter? Is it only the "top 5" or do people need to know the "top 25" programs?

I am not particularly interested in the competitiveness factor, or in the high demand NYC, NE corridor, California progs - my interests are geographic - but I do need to know just how competitive some of the programs I am interested in are. Like: UNC, MUSC, USC Palmetto...Vandy, Emory...

I gather that these are highly regarded, but how far down a "most competitive" residencies list are they, and how much should an average psych applicant with no red flags but also no real stellar achievements (no honors, mostly high passes) at a Top 20 med school (no better than middle of class, 210-ish Step 1) with no research (in med school) but a pretty interesting personal back story that makes for unique personal statement.

In other words, how far down do I need to apply to have some super solid backup programs in the South? Augusta? Birmingham? Mobile? Getting pretty paranoid about this entire process - SDN, starting with pre allo, is so heavily skewed to the most competitive schools and programs, and it is easy to lose perspective here when your sights are set a tad lower for personal, geog reasons.

Would be helpful to know the "best of" the less competitive programs in the South and Southwest...and any to avoid.

Thanks.

Agree that you will be very competitive at the programs you listed.

One piece of unsolicited advice, don't get too cute with your personal statement (since you mention you have an interesting background). You don't need to impress anyone with it - the fact that you're an AMG in the middle of their class at a top school and no red flags will already have them rolling out the red carpet for you. I've seen even stronger (on paper) candidates shoot themselves in the foot by writing a personal statement that provided Too Much Information. Now, if you're a Sudanese Lost Boy who learned English, then went on to get a PhD in neuroscience prior to med school you should probably mention that as it displays superior intelligence and character. But don't talk about your drunk uncle or controlling mother in your personal statement. The personal statement will be fodder for your discussion with your interviewers, and not much more. It should leave everyone with a positive, feel good impression.

 

[splik]

One piece of unsolicited advice, don't get too cute with your personal statement (since you mention you have an interesting background). You don't need to impress anyone with it - the fact that you're an AMG in the middle of their class at a top school and no red flags will already have them rolling out the red carpet for you. I've seen even stronger (on paper) candidates shoot themselves in the foot by writing a personal statement that provided Too Much Information.

will echo this. have read some truly awful personal statements in terms of TMI. think of it as a cover letter for a job. if you think its too personal for a cover letter, it is too personal for a personal statement.

 

[shinystar2014]

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[splik]

well if its not why you want to be a psychiatrist, why mention it? clearly it is a motivating factor. It's fine to mention these things, people do it all the time and they match. I mean there are only so many ways to write one of these personal statements, so they are all fairly cliche and hackneyed. Just don't derail your application and keep details to a minimum. If they want to know more they can ask in the interview. It's a turn off to reveal too much.

 

[NYCMS2]

Agree that you will be very competitive at the programs you listed.

One piece of unsolicited advice, don't get too cute with your personal statement (since you mention you have an interesting background). You don't need to impress anyone with it - the fact that you're an AMG in the middle of their class at a top school and no red flags will already have them rolling out the red carpet for you. I've seen even stronger (on paper) candidates shoot themselves in the foot by writing a personal statement that provided Too Much Information. Now, if you're a Sudanese Lost Boy who learned English, then went on to get a PhD in neuroscience prior to med school you should probably mention that as it displays superior intelligence and character. But don't talk about your drunk uncle or controlling mother in your personal statement. The personal statement will be fodder for your discussion with your interviewers, and not much more. It should leave everyone with a positive, feel good impression.

No, I did not mean anything like TMI by what I said. Nothing psychiatric, nothing medical, nothing about helping someone - something about me that is very unusual in terms of <being very vague here> my path to psychiatry - it is an interesting, unusual, intellectual achievement kind of thing. It will leave a "feel good" impression on any reader since it is a variation on my med school admissions PS and that triggered lots of interviews, lots of great responses, and made for engaging conversation with interviewers.

I agree with the advice to not put those TMI anecdotes in a PS. I read a lot of med school PSs, and some of them really made me cringe.