What to look for in prospective research lab?

[Skarl]

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Hi,

I have done research for 2 years with my current lab and have been seeking a new position in another lab to expand my skillset and investigate other areas of research. I was wondering, what are things I should look out for in a new lab? For any SDNers who are in productive, supportive, and worthwhile labs, what characteristics/things did you notice when you first joined?

I recently met with a potential mentor in a large lab (~20 undergrads, 11 postdocs/grad students), and he was very forward in outlining his expectations ("we don't treat undergrads like undergrads", its your responsibility to take the initiative/understand the research, I will be blunt and directly tell you if you make mistakes which happen, etc...) He expects 15-20 hours a week and told me that he usually requests recommendation letters from prospective undergrads before they join the lab. There are also weekly undergrad lab meetings for students to present on topics of their interest related to the area of study.

I am definitely not afraid to work hard and actually find the intensity quite attractive (although I think letter of recs for an undergraduate lab position is excessive), but I worry about the culture of this lab. Does this seem like it would be a productive environment for me to continue research in? The reason I ask if because the last lab I was in definitely was more laidback so there is a difference in initial impressions.

 

[Phile98]

Generally, smaller labs will allow you greater direct access with the PI. As I value personal relationships (perhaps far more than the research itself), a small setting is important.
I also feel that it is easier to achieve tangible results (pubs) in these intimate settings.
I've worked in both big and small labs. In the big one, I rarely talked to the PI except for pleasantries. The small ones allowed me to really get to know people and be productive with my work.
This is just my experience though; it really varies.
I would suggest to 1) check out the productivity of the lab using PubMed/RG/GS 2) evaluate if the mentor is personable and caring with his past students (because history always repeats itself).

 

[Goro]

Hi,

I have done research for 2 years with my current lab and have been seeking a new position in another lab to expand my skillset and investigate other areas of research. I was wondering, what are things I should look out for in a new lab? For any SDNers who are in productive, supportive, and worthwhile labs, what characteristics/things did you notice when you first joined?

I recently met with a potential mentor in a large lab (~20 undergrads, 11 postdocs/grad students), and he was very forward in outlining his expectations ("we don't treat undergrads like undergrads", its your responsibility to take the initiative/understand the research, I will be blunt and directly tell you if you make mistakes which happen, etc...) He expects 15-20 hours a week and told me that he usually requests recommendation letters from prospective undergrads before they join the lab. There are also weekly undergrad lab meetings for students to present on topics of their interest related to the area of study.

I am definitely not afraid to work hard and actually find the intensity quite attractive (although I think letter of recs for an undergraduate lab position is excessive), but I worry about the culture of this lab. Does this seem like it would be a productive environment for me to continue research in? The reason I ask if because the last lab I was in definitely was more laidback so there is a difference in initial impressions.

I have to warn you that it seems like you will be a tiny cog in a very large machine, and you won't see very much of the PI. What will be critical is the personality of the grad student or post-doc who supervises you.

 

[Frogger27]

The only thing that matters is if they will put you on publications. Find that guy

 

[deleted887473]

The most important thing to look for in labs is how much the lab — including the PI, the grad students, the Post Docs, everyone — respects undergrads. By respecting, I mean really appreciating our contributions and willing to trust us to handle more than technical stuff.
One way you can gauge this is looking up the publications that came out from the lab and see if undergrads authored any. Of course this is setting the bar really high but if you can find a lab like that it probably means they really care about undergrads.

 

[Skarl]

I have to warn you that it seems like you will be a tiny cog in a very large machine, and you won't see very much of the PI. What will be critical is the personality of the grad student or post-doc who supervises you.

Hey @Goro thank you for offering your input!

As an additional question: if the post-doc is a good mentor, do you think it matters if I am a cog in a large machine? My last lab was medium-large sized, so I similarly did not see my PI very often (this seems to be a common experience at my uni), but I was still able to develop a meaningful relationship with the graduate student who mentored me and helped me produce evidence of productivity via posters/pubs/presenting at my undergrad conference. I also plan on asking my previous mentor for my LOR, which he says he will write and simply have the PI read over then sign. At times, I definitely find myself gravitating toward finding a smaller lab and developing more personal relationships with my PI, but I honestly have not found many of these in my search.

 

[Skarl]

The only thing that matters is if they will put you on publications. Find that guy

You think it'd be forward of me to just ask directly? "What are your thoughts on publishing undergrads, provided that the necessary work has been put in?"

The most important thing to look for in labs is how much the lab — including the PI, the grad students, the Post Docs, everyone — respects undergrads. By respecting, I mean really appreciating our contributions and willing to trust us to handle more than technical stuff.
One way you can gauge this is looking up the publications that came out from the lab and see if undergrads authored any. Of course this is setting the bar really high but if you can find a lab like that it probably means they really care about undergrads.

Yeah the postdoc I am working with actually sent me the contact info of some of his previous students and recommended I reach out to them to see if I would be a good fit. This and the fact that he emphasized his high expectations for undergrads is a good sign. Conversely, he told me that the PI is "skeptical" of undergrads in lab, so that may also be a bad sign. It is, admittedly, hard to gauge at this point.

 

[deleted887473]

You think it'd be forward of me to just ask directly? "What are your thoughts on publishing undergrads, provided that the necessary work has been put in?"

Yeah the postdoc I am working with actually sent me the contact info of some of his previous students and recommended I reach out to them to see if I would be a good fit. This and the fact that he emphasized his high expectations for undergrads is a good sign. Conversely, he told me that the PI is "skeptical" of undergrads in lab, so that may also be a bad sign. It is, admittedly, hard to gauge at this point.

Don’t ask a PI directly if they’ll publish undergrads; that can come off as you just wanting rewards without doing work and can turn off some PIs. Talk to other people and look at publication history to figure that out.

 

[Frogger27]

Look up the guy on PubMed. See how much he publishes. If he publishes a lot, I would ask if he anticipates the project you would be working on to lead to a publication and if you would be on it.

If he does not publish a lot, you probably know your answer.

I’m a medical student so I’m much more matter of fact about this stuff, but it’s also because I have wasted plenty of time in pre-med working on research that has 0% chance of going anywhere. Med school is a lot different and if you can get some pubs in undergrad they will help you for the rest of your career

 

[Skarl]

Don’t ask a PI directly if they’ll publish undergrads; that can come off as you just wanting rewards without doing work and can turn off some PIs. Talk to other people and look at publication history to figure that out.

Any tips for deducing which authors are undergrads on a paper? I usually pubmed the PI and individually click on each author and make a judgement call.

 

[deleted887473]

Look up the guy on PubMed. See how much he publishes. If he publishes a lot, I would ask if he anticipates the project you would be working on to lead to a publication and if you would be on it.

If he does not publish a lot, you probably know your answer.

I’m a medical student so I’m much more matter of fact about this stuff, but it’s also because I have wasted plenty of time in pre-med working on research that has 0% chance of going anywhere. Med school is a lot different and if you can get some pubs in undergrad they will help you for the rest of your career

Did you really go up to a PI when you were an undergrad and ask that? And if so did that work? If not do you think it would have worked?
As a med student you might have the place to ask that and I’m an undergrad so I’m probably not confident enough or whatever but I feel like that’s asking a lot as an undergrad.

 

[deleted887473]

Any tips for deducing which authors are undergrads on a paper? I usually pubmed the PI and individually click on each author and make a judgement call.

I check their lab website if they have one; they might list undergrads among their lab personnels. On PubMed check if an author on a paper is from “Department of...” or “Xxx university [undergraduate major] program.” Look up if an author has multiple papers; if they do they probably are a faculty not an undergrad.

 

[Skarl]

I check their lab website if they have one; they might list undergrads among their lab personnels. On PubMed check if an author on a paper is from “Deprartment of...” or “Xxx university [undergraduate major] program.” Look up if an author has multiple papers; if they do they probably are a faculty not an undergrad.

This is actually a great tip. Thanks!

 

[Frogger27]

Did you really go up to a PI when you were an undergrad and ask that? And if so did that work? If not do you think it would have worked?
As a med student you might have the place to ask that and I’m an undergrad so I’m probably not confident enough or whatever but I feel like that’s asking a lot as a undergrad.

I took two gap years where I worked in a lab full time. I was interviewing in a couple of different labs and yes I straight up asked. It usually came up in a way of PI asking what my goals are and I would say: I want to join a productive lab where I will get published to enhance my medical school app... you will be able to tell if this person is invested in you by their response.

It all depends on what you want to get out of the experience.

If your goal is to put a little research line on your AMCAS, maybe get a letter of Rec and waste 20/hours a week pippeting and doing cell cultures than do that. Check the research box and move on.

But if you want your time to actually be used on something that will benefit your career, Find a mentor who is invested in you and who will teach you how to publish. Learn this school before med school. Future you will thank you 1000x.

Be confident in yourself. All they can say is no. Find the lab that is the best fit for your career goals and that is invested in you. If you want to be a little pippetting robot who wastes 20/hrs a week to put a line on their AMCAS than that’s fine, thousands of people have done this. But i would advise to look for a mentor who will give you an investment for your time (publications).

If you are at an undergrad with an attached med school/city with a good med school then there are plenty of productive labs/attendings that would love some pre med to do grunt work, chart reviews, etc. should not be too hard to find. Don’t settle.

 

[Frogger27]

And in case this wasn’t blatantly obvious: Do clinical research unless you want to be a phd/physician scientist

 

[Skarl]

If you are at an undergrad with an attached med school/city with a good med school then there are plenty of productive labs/attendings that would love some pre med to do grunt work, chart reviews, etc. should not be too hard to find. Don’t settle.

Would you recommend reaching out to clinical labs then? I.e. emailing research-involved MD faculty in medicine, surgery, other departments.

 

[deleted887473]

I took two gap years where I worked in a lab full time. I was interviewing in a couple of different labs and yes I straight up asked. It usually came up in a way of PI asking what my goals are and I would say: I want to join a productive lab where I will get published to enhance my medical school app... you will be able to tell if this person is invested in you.

It all depends on what you want to get out of the experience.

If your goal is to put a little research line on your AMCAS, maybe get a letter of Rec and waste 20/hours a week pippeting and doing cell cultures than do that. Check the research box and move on.

But if you want your time to actually be used on something that will benefit your career, Find a mentor who is invested in you and who will teach you how to publish. Learn this school before med school. Future you will thank you 1000x.

Be confident in yourself. All they can say is no. Find the lab that is the best fit for your career goals and that is invested in you. If you want to be a little pippetting robot wastes 20/hrs a week to put a line on their AMCAS than that’s fine, thousands of people have done this. But i would advise to look for a mentor who will give you an investment for your time (publications).

If you are at an undergrad with an attached med school/city with a good med school then there are plenty of productive labs that would love some pre med to do grunt work, chart reviews, etc. should not be too hard to find. Don’t settle.

I see; I get your point. I suppose I lucked out because I joined my current lab without asking that last school year and I’m pretty happy with what I’ve gotten in a year — fellowship funded by NIH, oral presentation at symposium, poster authorship at national conference, a agreement for an honors thesis. I suppose I can always want more, I.e. a publication, but I feel like that depends on my ability more than the lab itself. Plent of lab alumni got into med school without publication.

 

[Frogger27]

Would you recommend reaching out to clinical labs then? I.e. emailing research-involved MD faculty in medicine, surgery, other departments.

Yes, 100%. See if they have any chart review projects that a pre-med could work on. I’d start with a field you’re interested in first. Email attendings and also look at the administrative assistants in the lab. They are the most responsive and usually well plugged in. Some departments will have research coordinators, etc you could try also

 

[Frogger27]

I see; I get your point. I suppose I lucked out because I joined my current lab without asking that last school year and I’m pretty happy with what I’ve gotten in a year — fellowship funded by NIH, oral presentation at symposium, poster authorship at national conference, a agreement for an honors thesis. I suppose I can always want more, I.e. a publication, but I feel like that depends on my ability more than the lab itself. Plent of lab alumni got into med school without publication.

That’s more productive than 95% of M1s, so good job! Most people won’t have any type of publications during pre-med, which is fine. But it’s an added bonus if you do and the skills you learn about how to publish will be invaluable when you start projects in med school

 

[deleted887473]

That’s more productive than 95% of M1s, so good job! Most people won’t have any type of publications during pre-med, which is fine. But it’s an added bonus if you do and the skills you learn about how to publish will be invaluable when you start projects in med school

Thanks! Honestly it’s mostly my PI being really supportive and my mentor willing to teach me.
I do feel like publications in the sense of posters/presentations/thesis are reasonable for undergrads. Peer-reviewed journals though, well even the post-doc in our lab is struggling to publish...

 

[Frogger27]

I don't think this is blatantly obvious or accurate. Basic science research can give you an immense mechanistic training and practice with critical thinking that will help you care for patients and even support future clinical research goals.

Lmaaaaaaao. Immense mechanistic training and practice with critical thinking that will help care for future patients.

Is that how your tries to spin your research experience on your AMCAS app?? I’m guessing that is copy and pasted from it.

Good for you If you actually believe those cell cultures will treat you how to care for patients.

 

[Goro]

As an additional question: if the post-doc is a good mentor, do you think it matters if I am a cog in a large machine?
Not at all!

the only reason I mentioned that is I have read a fair number of SDN posts on the subject of UG research from people lamenting the fact that the PI won't give them individual attention.

 

[Frogger27]

Actually, no. I do agree that if you're going to be a tech in a basic science lab it might be more helpful to be at the lowest level of the clinical research food chain. that's definitely not the only option for undergrads/post-bacs in basic science, though, and I think if you find a basic research opportunity in an area of interest then the work can be meaningful. I have 4 first author publications and 4 second author so basic science hasn't exactly wasted my time. Thanks for the condescension though.

8 basic science publications? Lmao okay. There are PhD’s who do not get 8 publications in a decade.