What turned you away from other subspecialties? Why did you choose your subspecialty?

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Cere-berus

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There are lots of information about the different subspecialties regarding training, procedures etc. But I'm looking for insights, experiences, or opinions about what it actually feels like to work in each area particularly Neuromuscular, Movement, Headache, MS, Stroke...

For example, in my limited experience, Movement Disorders programs talk about the variety of pathologies, DBS and Botox. But outside of academia, out in the community you're mostly seeing Parkinson's, you need a neurosurgeon and academic center for DBS, and there's not a lot of volume for botox.

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Any specialty where it doesn’t matter if you know how to a neurological exam doesn’t feel like neurology to me. I’m neuromuscular so obvious the exam makes/breaks diagnoses.
 
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Any specialty where it doesn’t matter if you know how to a neurological exam doesn’t feel like neurology to me. I’m neuromuscular so obvious the exam makes/breaks diagnoses.
Thanks for replying. Thats how I feel about the neuro exam too. Honestly, I only truly considered neuromuscular and movement but I was thinking about Headache since there's a decent procedural side and most of what is seen in clinic.

If you dont mind, in your personal view what do like and dislike about neuromuscular? How common do you see muscles diseases as oppose to say... neuropathy? Do you do other procedures besides ncs/emg?
 
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There are lots of information about the different subspecialties regarding training, procedures etc. But I'm looking for insights, experiences, or opinions about what it actually feels like to work in each area particularly Neuromuscular, Movement, Headache, MS, Stroke...

For example, in my limited experience, Movement Disorders programs talk about the variety of pathologies, DBS and Botox. But outside of academia, out in the community you're mostly seeing Parkinson's, you need a neurosurgeon and academic center for DBS, and there's not a lot of volume for botox.
It depends a lot on your practice setting.

For Movement Disorders in a big academic center, within few years you could sub-specialize further in ataxias or chorea or Dystonia/botox, or work closely with a DBS surgeon and do that. In a mid size place you will see a mixture of every movement with majority being Parkinsonisms, tremor, followed by ataxia, dystonia, chorea and so on with some DBS.
In small size programs/community settings, you will see a mix of general neuro and movement. Probably won't get much DBS evals. you could probably build a Botox clinic though.

Obviously movement is big on examination and there is hardly much testing/imaging. In movement there is an added step before localization- phenomenology!
 
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Thanks for replying. Thats how I feel about the neuro exam too. Honestly, I only truly considered neuromuscular and movement but I was thinking about Headache since there's a decent procedural side and most of what is seen in clinic.

If you dont mind, in your personal view what do like and dislike about neuromuscular? How common do you see muscles diseases as oppose to say... neuropathy? Do you do other procedures besides ncs/emg?
Like: very logical specialty. Pattern of weakness cause lead to a diagnosis. Lot of diagnoses are clinical diagnoses and allows for immediate answers during a new patient visit.

Dislike: lack of treatment for a lot of NM disorders.

In private practice, muscle to nerve pathology is like 1:20 or so. Probably more.

Procedure. Nerve blocks, Botox for migraine.
 
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I’m not saying each of these is justified or correct, but these were some of my general “negative” impressions of various subspecialties. Perhaps they could generate discussion. I’ll also include some characteristics that I liked about the field.

Behavioral. Con. Lack of really treatable conditions. Lack of procedures. Dependence on someone else doing a formal neuropsych eval. Often need to be in academics, tends to be research-based. Pro. You may see rapidly progressive dementia and have to keep in mind some of the rare genetic or metabolic differentials. You could help to develop a good way to treat AD.

Stroke. Con. Largely inpatient, and in my experience hardly any other provider in the hospital setting is capable of actually being a doctor and make decisions which entail even a small amount of risk, leading to pan-consults. ED providers can simply activate a stroke protocol without taking any history, completely abdicate patient care, and make you sort out why an 88yoF is confused—often requiring calls to a nursing home or family member. Then when there is not a slam-dunk answer when the UA comes back clean, they try to admit to your service, forcing you to “prove” it’s not a stroke, which is very unlikely given the examination is non-focal but you can’t rule out embolic shower without MRI. (Obviously still salty from residency). Pro. You see some of the best recoveries in medicine with tPA + endovascular treatment. Figuring out the etiology of the stroke can be challenging, satisfying, and really help the patient. If you only work in the hospital, your schedule enables easy vacation scheduling and you don’t have to worry about outpatient follow-ups.

Sleep: Con. Lots of OSA. Really, mostly OSA. The really interesting things like parasomnias and narcolepsy are quite rare in actual practice. You have to somehow be tied to a lab and technically you are on call overnight (though calls are rare). Can be frustrating for patients when you explain they need good sleep hygiene and perhaps cognitive behavioral therapy when they really just want a sleeping pill. Denials from insurance for in-lab PSGs. Uncertain future environment of home monitoring devices, reimbursement rates, home PSGs, etc. (Perhaps this is a pro for some as it represents an opportunity to be ahead of the game). Pro. You get to apply cardiopulmonary physiology to every day practice. There are some interesting crossovers with movement, epilepsy, NDG (REM sleep behavior disorder, restless legs, nocturnal seizures, parasomnias). You get to interpret PSGs. Many patients really do have substantial symptomatic benefit (and long-term clinical benefit) from PAP therapy (if you can convince them to use a CPAP and they can tolerate it).

Epilepsy. Con. Multiple frantic calls per day regarding breakthrough seizures requiring extra time to respond to each of these and look through the chart (non-billable). EEG reimbursement rates were recently hit with more documentation needed for EMU EEG. Often on call for cEEG in the hospital, requiring you to wake up in the middle of the night to check the EEG (which many providers just don’t do, but I think most centers have had a patient in status all night because someone wasn’t reading the EEG). If you only do epilepsy, the examination becomes largely irrelevant (maybe that’s a pro for some people). Telling people they are illegal to drive frequently (but this is common in neuro in general). Pro. Amazing armamentarium of medications. Reading EEG. Surgical evaluations with EEG, MRI, PET, SPECT, fMRI, etc. VNS, RNS. Working closely with other disciplines like neuropsych, NSG (perhaps a con).

Movement. Con. End-stage movement disorders and many etiologies of ataxia have little treatment. There is large crossover with behavioral/neurodegenerative. Pro. Many patients really benefit from treatment (whether via Botox or levodopa). Experienced movement disorder physicians may be the only ones to be able to sort out manifestations of rare disorders from functional and vice versa.

Neuro-ophthalmology: Con. Steep learning curve learning a lot of ophthalmology in one year (not only slit lamp, indirect, prisms etc but also at least basic understanding of ocular conditions). Often complex visits requiring record review. Reliance on a tech to do OCT/Humphrey visual field testing. Many other providers are apparently incapable of actually being doctors, so you may have to identify an ocular issue (monocular diplopia, greatly improved visual acuity with pinhole) and explain to the patient that they need to go back to a competent eye doctor or explain that their homonymous field defect is unlikely to get better and they are illegal to drive (which no one has told them). Triaging patients can be difficult due to many “ASAP” requests and long wait times. Pro. You are able to perform a detailed examination and evaluation using a unique combination of skills, techniques, and diagnostic tests—and there is only 1 full-time neuro-op for every 2.7million people or so in the U.S. OCT provides reliable objective data of optic nerve health which is very easy to obtain and painless. You see patients from basically every subspecialty of neurology with a fair amount of neuro-immunology. Relatively high percentage of interesting cases since you are a specialist for the specialists and you can add to the work-up as you see fit. See consults from multiple specialties like ENT, NSG, neurology, ophthalmology, rheumatology, endocrine, genetics etc.

Neuro-immunology: Con. Tend to absorb all of the really difficult cases because if the answer isn’t clear “it must be autoimmune”. A lot of symptom management with MS which may not be that successful. MS patients may think that every symptom they have is related to MS and reach out to you before their PCP. Lots of lab monitoring. Pro. A lot of interesting, treatable disorders. Growing armamentarium for MS. Great new therapies for NMO.

Neuromuscular: Con. Fair amount of disorders without good treatment. A lot of supportive care. Pro. Procedures with EMG/NCS provide objective data which is relatively easy to obtain and provide some variation within the day. Examination is important and detailed. Broad differential for many presentations. You learn to be comfortable with neuro-immunology given the need to treat MG, CIDP, and inflammatory myopathies.

Endovascular: Con. Requires 3-4 years of training after residency. Extremely steep learning curve. With great power comes great responsibility. Very frequent overnight call. The need to live much of life with a pager. Pro. You can provide amazing life-saving treatment in someone’s greatest moment of need. With great responsibility comes great power.

Pain: Con. You see pain patients. Pro. You do procedures.

Neuro-onc: Con. GBM is still for the most part a poorly treatable condition which is rapidly fatal. This is a major portion of the practice. Academics and research-based (perhaps this is a pro for some). Consults for brain metastases where there wasn’t much to offer outside of referring to NSG or rad-onc. Pro: A very unique specialty that is in demand. You can prescribe chemo. You have to keep an open mind because the referrals may be mimics of neoplastic disorders.

Autonomic: Con. You see a lot of patients who have been diagnosed with POTS, often erroneously, who are floridly functional and have many other symptoms without much objective dysfunction. These patients have probably been told by 4 or 5 other doctors that the problems are all “autonomic”, leading to difficult conversations when you 1) don’t think there is an autonomic disorder or 2) don’t have much to offer in terms of treatment besides PT, wearing tight socks, and drinking a lot of water. Autonomic testing can be confounded by the use of many medications which patients are often using. Older patients with autonomic disorders may have diabetes or a NDG condition which is poorly treatable. Pro. Autonomic testing in a legitimate lab is objective, unique, and often helpful, and you are the only one that can interpret it. You have a test that you can say is normal which lets you send the patient back to the referring doctor. There are some occasional rare, interesting pathologies.

Headache: Con. Nearly sole reliance on a subjective symptom. Psychiatric overlay frequently clouds treatment effect. You typically only see the most difficult headache patients, and the ones that are responsive to typical therapies stay with their general neurologist. Pro. Sometimes you are the only one that really listens to the patient and figures out they don’t have migraine but rather hemicrania continua and put them on indomethacin which resolves their headache for the first time in 40 years. You often can at least expand the work-up and obtain MRA/MRV or cervical spine imaging which may detect an undiagnosed issue. Procedures.

Neuro-ID: Con. Relatively high levels of morbidity and mortality. Only available in large academic centers, often research-based. Pro. You get to use a lot of medicine training outside of conventional neurology. See a lot of interesting cases which may or may not be neuro-infectious in nature. You are very subspecialized and probably pretty sharp.

Neurocritical care: Con. Working in the hospital, frequently being on call. Steep learning curve. Relatively high levels of morbidity and mortality despite modern-day medicine. Pro. You get to use a lot of medicine outside of traditional neurology. You are relatively shielded from ridiculous consults and functional patients—getting to focus on treating real disease. For the treatable patients, you were the doctor that was with them in their darkest hour and made them better. Procedures.

Palliative care neurology: Con. Palliative care. Pro. Neurology.

Sports neurology. Con. Neurology. Pro. Sports.
 
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I'm an inpatient neurologist boarded in Epilepsy and I've worked in comprehensive stroke centers handling stroke call, Neuro ICU (open units), etc. A few comments on the above post:

Stroke: I largely agree. Lots of services will wash their hands of any sort of neuro change by calling a code stroke, inpatient or through the E.D. Be it for the liver bomb patient who suddenly goes altered "BuT hE wAs FiNe On ShIfT cHaNgE" or for any sort of pseudo neurological symptom that comes through the E.D. and yes they will sometimes call stroke codes without getting any sort of history first. Additionally, panconsulting is a problem so you do see a ton of general neuro. It's very rare for an inpatient neurology job to be purely stroke. Also in my experience interacting with boarded stroke neurologists they're not all created equal (as with any subspecialty, really).

It is worth noting though that primary services exist pretty much exclusively in residency programs. Therefore, I haven't dealt with people pushing admits on me from the E.D. because "prove it's not a stroke" (which is BS but I digress). That being said I agree when you see a good TPA/endovascular recovery it feels awesome, and no clinic is pretty nice too.

Epilepsy: I didn't really deal with many calls for breakthrough seizures during fellowships. Epileptics know they seize every now and again and know their triggers. If anything people tend to under-report. What I DID run into were a lot of calls about side effects (Keppra making me sleepy, etc) which were kind of annoying when I had already disclosed them but I digress. Pseudoseizures are a problem, and when someone has both epileptic and pseudo you're in for a tough time. It's very hard to get some patients to accept their diagnosis and seek help OR find someone who can provide those services so they're quite difficult to discharge from your clinic.

Getting up to read EEGs at night if you're on call kinda sucks, especially if there's someone who is intubated and shivering and you have people calling you frantically.

As far as surgical evaluations go well you pretty much need to be in an academic center or a very well built program because you need a good EMU, competent surgeon, and lots of support to do anything but the most basic VNS management. That being said some of these cases are big wins, and you develop good relationships with your regular patients.
 
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I’m not saying each of these is justified or correct, but these were some of my general “negative” impressions of various subspecialties. Perhaps they could generate discussion. I’ll also include some characteristics that I liked about the field.

Behavioral. Con. Lack of really treatable conditions. Lack of procedures. Dependence on someone else doing a formal neuropsych eval. Often need to be in academics, tends to be research-based. Pro. You may see rapidly progressive dementia and have to keep in mind some of the rare genetic or metabolic differentials. You could help to develop a good way to treat AD.

Stroke. Con. Largely inpatient, and in my experience hardly any other provider in the hospital setting is capable of actually being a doctor and make decisions which entail even a small amount of risk, leading to pan-consults. ED providers can simply activate a stroke protocol without taking any history, completely abdicate patient care, and make you sort out why an 88yoF is confused—often requiring calls to a nursing home or family member. Then when there is not a slam-dunk answer when the UA comes back clean, they try to admit to your service, forcing you to “prove” it’s not a stroke, which is very unlikely given the examination is non-focal but you can’t rule out embolic shower without MRI. (Obviously still salty from residency). Pro. You see some of the best recoveries in medicine with tPA + endovascular treatment. Figuring out the etiology of the stroke can be challenging, satisfying, and really help the patient. If you only work in the hospital, your schedule enables easy vacation scheduling and you don’t have to worry about outpatient follow-ups.

Sleep: Con. Lots of OSA. Really, mostly OSA. The really interesting things like parasomnias and narcolepsy are quite rare in actual practice. You have to somehow be tied to a lab and technically you are on call overnight (though calls are rare). Can be frustrating for patients when you explain they need good sleep hygiene and perhaps cognitive behavioral therapy when they really just want a sleeping pill. Denials from insurance for in-lab PSGs. Uncertain future environment of home monitoring devices, reimbursement rates, home PSGs, etc. (Perhaps this is a pro for some as it represents an opportunity to be ahead of the game). Pro. You get to apply cardiopulmonary physiology to every day practice. There are some interesting crossovers with movement, epilepsy, NDG (REM sleep behavior disorder, restless legs, nocturnal seizures, parasomnias). You get to interpret PSGs. Many patients really do have substantial symptomatic benefit (and long-term clinical benefit) from PAP therapy (if you can convince them to use a CPAP and they can tolerate it).

Epilepsy. Con. Multiple frantic calls per day regarding breakthrough seizures requiring extra time to respond to each of these and look through the chart (non-billable). EEG reimbursement rates were recently hit with more documentation needed for EMU EEG. Often on call for cEEG in the hospital, requiring you to wake up in the middle of the night to check the EEG (which many providers just don’t do, but I think most centers have had a patient in status all night because someone wasn’t reading the EEG). If you only do epilepsy, the examination becomes largely irrelevant (maybe that’s a pro for some people). Telling people they are illegal to drive frequently (but this is common in neuro in general). Pro. Amazing armamentarium of medications. Reading EEG. Surgical evaluations with EEG, MRI, PET, SPECT, fMRI, etc. VNS, RNS. Working closely with other disciplines like neuropsych, NSG (perhaps a con).

Movement. Con. End-stage movement disorders and many etiologies of ataxia have little treatment. There is large crossover with behavioral/neurodegenerative. Pro. Many patients really benefit from treatment (whether via Botox or levodopa). Experienced movement disorder physicians may be the only ones to be able to sort out manifestations of rare disorders from functional and vice versa.

Neuro-ophthalmology: Con. Steep learning curve learning a lot of ophthalmology in one year (not only slit lamp, indirect, prisms etc but also at least basic understanding of ocular conditions). Often complex visits requiring record review. Reliance on a tech to do OCT/Humphrey visual field testing. Many other providers are apparently incapable of actually being doctors, so you may have to identify an ocular issue (monocular diplopia, greatly improved visual acuity with pinhole) and explain to the patient that they need to go back to a competent eye doctor or explain that their homonymous field defect is unlikely to get better and they are illegal to drive (which no one has told them). Triaging patients can be difficult due to many “ASAP” requests and long wait times. Pro. You are able to perform a detailed examination and evaluation using a unique combination of skills, techniques, and diagnostic tests—and there is only 1 full-time neuro-op for every 2.7million people or so in the U.S. OCT provides reliable objective data of optic nerve health which is very easy to obtain and painless. You see patients from basically every subspecialty of neurology with a fair amount of neuro-immunology. Relatively high percentage of interesting cases since you are a specialist for the specialists and you can add to the work-up as you see fit. See consults from multiple specialties like ENT, NSG, neurology, ophthalmology, rheumatology, endocrine, genetics etc.

Neuro-immunology: Con. Tend to absorb all of the really difficult cases because if the answer isn’t clear “it must be autoimmune”. A lot of symptom management with MS which may not be that successful. MS patients may think that every symptom they have is related to MS and reach out to you before their PCP. Lots of lab monitoring. Pro. A lot of interesting, treatable disorders. Growing armamentarium for MS. Great new therapies for NMO.

Neuromuscular: Con. Fair amount of disorders without good treatment. A lot of supportive care. Pro. Procedures with EMG/NCS provide objective data which is relatively easy to obtain and provide some variation within the day. Examination is important and detailed. Broad differential for many presentations. You learn to be comfortable with neuro-immunology given the need to treat MG, CIDP, and inflammatory myopathies.

Endovascular: Con. Requires 3-4 years of training after residency. Extremely steep learning curve. With great power comes great responsibility. Very frequent overnight call. The need to live much of life with a pager. Pro. You can provide amazing life-saving treatment in someone’s greatest moment of need. With great responsibility comes great power.

Pain: Con. You see pain patients. Pro. You do procedures.

Neuro-onc: Con. GBM is still for the most part a poorly treatable condition which is rapidly fatal. This is a major portion of the practice. Academics and research-based (perhaps this is a pro for some). Consults for brain metastases where there wasn’t much to offer outside of referring to NSG or rad-onc. Pro: A very unique specialty that is in demand. You can prescribe chemo. You have to keep an open mind because the referrals may be mimics of neoplastic disorders.

Autonomic: Con. You see a lot of patients who have been diagnosed with POTS, often erroneously, who are floridly functional and have many other symptoms without much objective dysfunction. These patients have probably been told by 4 or 5 other doctors that the problems are all “autonomic”, leading to difficult conversations when you 1) don’t think there is an autonomic disorder or 2) don’t have much to offer in terms of treatment besides PT, wearing tight socks, and drinking a lot of water. Autonomic testing can be confounded by the use of many medications which patients are often using. Older patients with autonomic disorders may have diabetes or a NDG condition which is poorly treatable. Pro. Autonomic testing in a legitimate lab is objective, unique, and often helpful, and you are the only one that can interpret it. You have a test that you can say is normal which lets you send the patient back to the referring doctor. There are some occasional rare, interesting pathologies.

Headache: Con. Nearly sole reliance on a subjective symptom. Psychiatric overlay frequently clouds treatment effect. You typically only see the most difficult headache patients, and the ones that are responsive to typical therapies stay with their general neurologist. Pro. Sometimes you are the only one that really listens to the patient and figures out they don’t have migraine but rather hemicrania continua and put them on indomethacin which resolves their headache for the first time in 40 years. You often can at least expand the work-up and obtain MRA/MRV or cervical spine imaging which may detect an undiagnosed issue. Procedures.

Neuro-ID: Con. Relatively high levels of morbidity and mortality. Only available in large academic centers, often research-based. Pro. You get to use a lot of medicine training outside of conventional neurology. See a lot of interesting cases which may or may not be neuro-infectious in nature. You are very subspecialized and probably pretty sharp.

Neurocritical care: Con. Working in the hospital, frequently being on call. Steep learning curve. Relatively high levels of morbidity and mortality despite modern-day medicine. Pro. You get to use a lot of medicine outside of traditional neurology. You are relatively shielded from ridiculous consults and functional patients—getting to focus on treating real disease. For the treatable patients, you were the doctor that was with them in their darkest hour and made them better. Procedures.

Palliative care neurology: Con. Palliative care. Pro. Neurology.

Sports neurology. Con. Neurology. Pro. Sports.
I’m not saying each of these is justified or correct, but these were some of my general “negative” impressions of various subspecialties. Perhaps they could generate discussion. I’ll also include some characteristics that I liked about the field.

Behavioral. Con. Lack of really treatable conditions. Lack of procedures. Dependence on someone else doing a formal neuropsych eval. Often need to be in academics, tends to be research-based. Pro. You may see rapidly progressive dementia and have to keep in mind some of the rare genetic or metabolic differentials. You could help to develop a good way to treat AD.

Stroke. Con. Largely inpatient, and in my experience hardly any other provider in the hospital setting is capable of actually being a doctor and make decisions which entail even a small amount of risk, leading to pan-consults. ED providers can simply activate a stroke protocol without taking any history, completely abdicate patient care, and make you sort out why an 88yoF is confused—often requiring calls to a nursing home or family member. Then when there is not a slam-dunk answer when the UA comes back clean, they try to admit to your service, forcing you to “prove” it’s not a stroke, which is very unlikely given the examination is non-focal but you can’t rule out embolic shower without MRI. (Obviously still salty from residency). Pro. You see some of the best recoveries in medicine with tPA + endovascular treatment. Figuring out the etiology of the stroke can be challenging, satisfying, and really help the patient. If you only work in the hospital, your schedule enables easy vacation scheduling and you don’t have to worry about outpatient follow-ups.

Sleep: Con. Lots of OSA. Really, mostly OSA. The really interesting things like parasomnias and narcolepsy are quite rare in actual practice. You have to somehow be tied to a lab and technically you are on call overnight (though calls are rare). Can be frustrating for patients when you explain they need good sleep hygiene and perhaps cognitive behavioral therapy when they really just want a sleeping pill. Denials from insurance for in-lab PSGs. Uncertain future environment of home monitoring devices, reimbursement rates, home PSGs, etc. (Perhaps this is a pro for some as it represents an opportunity to be ahead of the game). Pro. You get to apply cardiopulmonary physiology to every day practice. There are some interesting crossovers with movement, epilepsy, NDG (REM sleep behavior disorder, restless legs, nocturnal seizures, parasomnias). You get to interpret PSGs. Many patients really do have substantial symptomatic benefit (and long-term clinical benefit) from PAP therapy (if you can convince them to use a CPAP and they can tolerate it).

Epilepsy. Con. Multiple frantic calls per day regarding breakthrough seizures requiring extra time to respond to each of these and look through the chart (non-billable). EEG reimbursement rates were recently hit with more documentation needed for EMU EEG. Often on call for cEEG in the hospital, requiring you to wake up in the middle of the night to check the EEG (which many providers just don’t do, but I think most centers have had a patient in status all night because someone wasn’t reading the EEG). If you only do epilepsy, the examination becomes largely irrelevant (maybe that’s a pro for some people). Telling people they are illegal to drive frequently (but this is common in neuro in general). Pro. Amazing armamentarium of medications. Reading EEG. Surgical evaluations with EEG, MRI, PET, SPECT, fMRI, etc. VNS, RNS. Working closely with other disciplines like neuropsych, NSG (perhaps a con).

Movement. Con. End-stage movement disorders and many etiologies of ataxia have little treatment. There is large crossover with behavioral/neurodegenerative. Pro. Many patients really benefit from treatment (whether via Botox or levodopa). Experienced movement disorder physicians may be the only ones to be able to sort out manifestations of rare disorders from functional and vice versa.

Neuro-ophthalmology: Con. Steep learning curve learning a lot of ophthalmology in one year (not only slit lamp, indirect, prisms etc but also at least basic understanding of ocular conditions). Often complex visits requiring record review. Reliance on a tech to do OCT/Humphrey visual field testing. Many other providers are apparently incapable of actually being doctors, so you may have to identify an ocular issue (monocular diplopia, greatly improved visual acuity with pinhole) and explain to the patient that they need to go back to a competent eye doctor or explain that their homonymous field defect is unlikely to get better and they are illegal to drive (which no one has told them). Triaging patients can be difficult due to many “ASAP” requests and long wait times. Pro. You are able to perform a detailed examination and evaluation using a unique combination of skills, techniques, and diagnostic tests—and there is only 1 full-time neuro-op for every 2.7million people or so in the U.S. OCT provides reliable objective data of optic nerve health which is very easy to obtain and painless. You see patients from basically every subspecialty of neurology with a fair amount of neuro-immunology. Relatively high percentage of interesting cases since you are a specialist for the specialists and you can add to the work-up as you see fit. See consults from multiple specialties like ENT, NSG, neurology, ophthalmology, rheumatology, endocrine, genetics etc.

Neuro-immunology: Con. Tend to absorb all of the really difficult cases because if the answer isn’t clear “it must be autoimmune”. A lot of symptom management with MS which may not be that successful. MS patients may think that every symptom they have is related to MS and reach out to you before their PCP. Lots of lab monitoring. Pro. A lot of interesting, treatable disorders. Growing armamentarium for MS. Great new therapies for NMO.

Neuromuscular: Con. Fair amount of disorders without good treatment. A lot of supportive care. Pro. Procedures with EMG/NCS provide objective data which is relatively easy to obtain and provide some variation within the day. Examination is important and detailed. Broad differential for many presentations. You learn to be comfortable with neuro-immunology given the need to treat MG, CIDP, and inflammatory myopathies.

Endovascular: Con. Requires 3-4 years of training after residency. Extremely steep learning curve. With great power comes great responsibility. Very frequent overnight call. The need to live much of life with a pager. Pro. You can provide amazing life-saving treatment in someone’s greatest moment of need. With great responsibility comes great power.

Pain: Con. You see pain patients. Pro. You do procedures.

Neuro-onc: Con. GBM is still for the most part a poorly treatable condition which is rapidly fatal. This is a major portion of the practice. Academics and research-based (perhaps this is a pro for some). Consults for brain metastases where there wasn’t much to offer outside of referring to NSG or rad-onc. Pro: A very unique specialty that is in demand. You can prescribe chemo. You have to keep an open mind because the referrals may be mimics of neoplastic disorders.

Autonomic: Con. You see a lot of patients who have been diagnosed with POTS, often erroneously, who are floridly functional and have many other symptoms without much objective dysfunction. These patients have probably been told by 4 or 5 other doctors that the problems are all “autonomic”, leading to difficult conversations when you 1) don’t think there is an autonomic disorder or 2) don’t have much to offer in terms of treatment besides PT, wearing tight socks, and drinking a lot of water. Autonomic testing can be confounded by the use of many medications which patients are often using. Older patients with autonomic disorders may have diabetes or a NDG condition which is poorly treatable. Pro. Autonomic testing in a legitimate lab is objective, unique, and often helpful, and you are the only one that can interpret it. You have a test that you can say is normal which lets you send the patient back to the referring doctor. There are some occasional rare, interesting pathologies.

Headache: Con. Nearly sole reliance on a subjective symptom. Psychiatric overlay frequently clouds treatment effect. You typically only see the most difficult headache patients, and the ones that are responsive to typical therapies stay with their general neurologist. Pro. Sometimes you are the only one that really listens to the patient and figures out they don’t have migraine but rather hemicrania continua and put them on indomethacin which resolves their headache for the first time in 40 years. You often can at least expand the work-up and obtain MRA/MRV or cervical spine imaging which may detect an undiagnosed issue. Procedures.

Neuro-ID: Con. Relatively high levels of morbidity and mortality. Only available in large academic centers, often research-based. Pro. You get to use a lot of medicine training outside of conventional neurology. See a lot of interesting cases which may or may not be neuro-infectious in nature. You are very subspecialized and probably pretty sharp.

Neurocritical care: Con. Working in the hospital, frequently being on call. Steep learning curve. Relatively high levels of morbidity and mortality despite modern-day medicine. Pro. You get to use a lot of medicine outside of traditional neurology. You are relatively shielded from ridiculous consults and functional patients—getting to focus on treating real disease. For the treatable patients, you were the doctor that was with them in their darkest hour and made them better. Procedures.

Palliative care neurology: Con. Palliative care. Pro. Neurology.

Sports neurology. Con. Neurology. Pro. Sports.
Accurate and amazing summary. Agree with all of it.
 
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Amazing write up by Spintohalamic.

I couldn't agree more regarding neuromuscular. I'm glad that I'm able to break up my week into EMG days and clinic days. It adds variety and I think I'd be very burned out if I was doing clinic visits 100% of the time. It also tends to reimburse slightly better than equivalent time spent doing E/M visits.

I'd also add that for community neuro, having detailed knowledge of the peripheral nervous system really comes in handy.
 
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Incredible write up above. I think one pro of endovascular and pain is the reimbursement too. I doubt anyone would go NIR if it paid like a behavioural subspecialist lol.

I haven't started residency, but recently I shadowed someone who did pain+EMG+general neurology. 3-3.5 days of pain procedures/clinic, 1/2 day emg and the rest general neurology. Pain itself is said to be boring (although it wasn't for me), but maybe combining it with a bit of general neurology makes it more appealing (especially if you have detailed knowledge of neuromuscular and emg, either through residency or an NM fellowship), and the guy makes 500k+ doing so in a decent non-coastal place (which is probably outside the scope of outpatient neuro unless rural). Again, I am not a neurologist (applied for residency this year), so I don't have a broad understanding of many subspecialties yet.
 
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I couldn't agree more regarding neuromuscular. I'm glad that I'm able to break up my week into EMG days and clinic days. It adds variety and I think I'd be very burned out if I was doing clinic visits 100% of the time. It also tends to reimburse slightly better than equivalent time spent doing E/M visits.
I am an EMG-er and love every aspect of EMG ... the localization, the deductive process, the ability to often confirm a diagnosis quickly. Except ... I have a hard time making small talk with the patient during the exam. Those periods of quiet in between nerve stimulations and needling seem very awkward somehow. So I'm grateful when I have a trainee, resident or fellow to whom I can talk shop and the patient doesn't feel they're being ignored, just that the doctors are too busy to chit-chat.
 
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Like: very logical specialty. Pattern of weakness cause lead to a diagnosis. Lot of diagnoses are clinical diagnoses and allows for immediate answers during a new patient visit.

Dislike: lack of treatment for a lot of NM disorders.

In private practice, muscle to nerve pathology is like 1:20 or so. Probably more.

Procedure. Nerve blocks, Botox for migraine.
What is the age distribution of patients who present to neuromuscular clinic?
 
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It depends a lot on your practice setting.

For Movement Disorders in a big academic center, within few years you could sub-specialize further in ataxias or chorea or Dystonia/botox, or work closely with a DBS surgeon and do that. In a mid size place you will see a mixture of every movement with majority being Parkinsonisms, tremor, followed by ataxia, dystonia, chorea and so on with some DBS.
In small size programs/community settings, you will see a mix of general neuro and movement. Probably won't get much DBS evals. you could probably build a Botox clinic though.

Obviously movement is big on examination and there is hardly much testing/imaging. In movement there is an added step before localization- phenomenology!
Initially I really liked neuromuscular, but recently I see how rewarding movement can be. Its definitely interesting, and I like that you cant fall back on electro diagnostics. I wouldnt mind doing gen neuro/movement.

Medicine is getting to a place where lots of folks make claims without proper training and I want to do something where I cant simply be replaced. I was shocked after I found out that everyone is doing emg/ncs namely PT, PM&R, PCP etc then having patients sent to neuromuscular to redo tests.
 
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Like: very logical specialty. Pattern of weakness cause lead to a diagnosis. Lot of diagnoses are clinical diagnoses and allows for immediate answers during a new patient visit.

Dislike: lack of treatment for a lot of NM disorders.

In private practice, muscle to nerve pathology is like 1:20 or so. Probably more.

Procedure. Nerve blocks, Botox for migraine.
what drew me to neurology was hearing someone talk about neuromuscular medicine. Fascinating stuff. Doing nerve blocks, botox, ncs/emg feels like enough to mix things up in clinic.

Do you do botox for movement stuff like blephs, dystonia etc?
How many emgs or how often does one have to do emgs to remain "good" or "keep the skill"? Folks said because they see so few of certain cases they end up forgetting sometimes
 
I’m not saying each of these is justified or correct, but these were some of my general “negative” impressions of various subspecialties. Perhaps they could generate discussion. I’ll also include some characteristics that I liked about the field.

Behavioral. Con. Lack of really treatable conditions. Lack of procedures. Dependence on someone else doing a formal neuropsych eval. Often need to be in academics, tends to be research-based. Pro. You may see rapidly progressive dementia and have to keep in mind some of the rare genetic or metabolic differentials. You could help to develop a good way to treat AD.

Stroke. Con. Largely inpatient, and in my experience hardly any other provider in the hospital setting is capable of actually being a doctor and make decisions which entail even a small amount of risk, leading to pan-consults. ED providers can simply activate a stroke protocol without taking any history, completely abdicate patient care, and make you sort out why an 88yoF is confused—often requiring calls to a nursing home or family member. Then when there is not a slam-dunk answer when the UA comes back clean, they try to admit to your service, forcing you to “prove” it’s not a stroke, which is very unlikely given the examination is non-focal but you can’t rule out embolic shower without MRI. (Obviously still salty from residency). Pro. You see some of the best recoveries in medicine with tPA + endovascular treatment. Figuring out the etiology of the stroke can be challenging, satisfying, and really help the patient. If you only work in the hospital, your schedule enables easy vacation scheduling and you don’t have to worry about outpatient follow-ups.

Sleep: Con. Lots of OSA. Really, mostly OSA. The really interesting things like parasomnias and narcolepsy are quite rare in actual practice. You have to somehow be tied to a lab and technically you are on call overnight (though calls are rare). Can be frustrating for patients when you explain they need good sleep hygiene and perhaps cognitive behavioral therapy when they really just want a sleeping pill. Denials from insurance for in-lab PSGs. Uncertain future environment of home monitoring devices, reimbursement rates, home PSGs, etc. (Perhaps this is a pro for some as it represents an opportunity to be ahead of the game). Pro. You get to apply cardiopulmonary physiology to every day practice. There are some interesting crossovers with movement, epilepsy, NDG (REM sleep behavior disorder, restless legs, nocturnal seizures, parasomnias). You get to interpret PSGs. Many patients really do have substantial symptomatic benefit (and long-term clinical benefit) from PAP therapy (if you can convince them to use a CPAP and they can tolerate it).

Epilepsy. Con. Multiple frantic calls per day regarding breakthrough seizures requiring extra time to respond to each of these and look through the chart (non-billable). EEG reimbursement rates were recently hit with more documentation needed for EMU EEG. Often on call for cEEG in the hospital, requiring you to wake up in the middle of the night to check the EEG (which many providers just don’t do, but I think most centers have had a patient in status all night because someone wasn’t reading the EEG). If you only do epilepsy, the examination becomes largely irrelevant (maybe that’s a pro for some people). Telling people they are illegal to drive frequently (but this is common in neuro in general). Pro. Amazing armamentarium of medications. Reading EEG. Surgical evaluations with EEG, MRI, PET, SPECT, fMRI, etc. VNS, RNS. Working closely with other disciplines like neuropsych, NSG (perhaps a con).

Movement. Con. End-stage movement disorders and many etiologies of ataxia have little treatment. There is large crossover with behavioral/neurodegenerative. Pro. Many patients really benefit from treatment (whether via Botox or levodopa). Experienced movement disorder physicians may be the only ones to be able to sort out manifestations of rare disorders from functional and vice versa.

Neuro-ophthalmology: Con. Steep learning curve learning a lot of ophthalmology in one year (not only slit lamp, indirect, prisms etc but also at least basic understanding of ocular conditions). Often complex visits requiring record review. Reliance on a tech to do OCT/Humphrey visual field testing. Many other providers are apparently incapable of actually being doctors, so you may have to identify an ocular issue (monocular diplopia, greatly improved visual acuity with pinhole) and explain to the patient that they need to go back to a competent eye doctor or explain that their homonymous field defect is unlikely to get better and they are illegal to drive (which no one has told them). Triaging patients can be difficult due to many “ASAP” requests and long wait times. Pro. You are able to perform a detailed examination and evaluation using a unique combination of skills, techniques, and diagnostic tests—and there is only 1 full-time neuro-op for every 2.7million people or so in the U.S. OCT provides reliable objective data of optic nerve health which is very easy to obtain and painless. You see patients from basically every subspecialty of neurology with a fair amount of neuro-immunology. Relatively high percentage of interesting cases since you are a specialist for the specialists and you can add to the work-up as you see fit. See consults from multiple specialties like ENT, NSG, neurology, ophthalmology, rheumatology, endocrine, genetics etc.

Neuro-immunology: Con. Tend to absorb all of the really difficult cases because if the answer isn’t clear “it must be autoimmune”. A lot of symptom management with MS which may not be that successful. MS patients may think that every symptom they have is related to MS and reach out to you before their PCP. Lots of lab monitoring. Pro. A lot of interesting, treatable disorders. Growing armamentarium for MS. Great new therapies for NMO.

Neuromuscular: Con. Fair amount of disorders without good treatment. A lot of supportive care. Pro. Procedures with EMG/NCS provide objective data which is relatively easy to obtain and provide some variation within the day. Examination is important and detailed. Broad differential for many presentations. You learn to be comfortable with neuro-immunology given the need to treat MG, CIDP, and inflammatory myopathies.

Endovascular: Con. Requires 3-4 years of training after residency. Extremely steep learning curve. With great power comes great responsibility. Very frequent overnight call. The need to live much of life with a pager. Pro. You can provide amazing life-saving treatment in someone’s greatest moment of need. With great responsibility comes great power.

Pain: Con. You see pain patients. Pro. You do procedures.

Neuro-onc: Con. GBM is still for the most part a poorly treatable condition which is rapidly fatal. This is a major portion of the practice. Academics and research-based (perhaps this is a pro for some). Consults for brain metastases where there wasn’t much to offer outside of referring to NSG or rad-onc. Pro: A very unique specialty that is in demand. You can prescribe chemo. You have to keep an open mind because the referrals may be mimics of neoplastic disorders.

Autonomic: Con. You see a lot of patients who have been diagnosed with POTS, often erroneously, who are floridly functional and have many other symptoms without much objective dysfunction. These patients have probably been told by 4 or 5 other doctors that the problems are all “autonomic”, leading to difficult conversations when you 1) don’t think there is an autonomic disorder or 2) don’t have much to offer in terms of treatment besides PT, wearing tight socks, and drinking a lot of water. Autonomic testing can be confounded by the use of many medications which patients are often using. Older patients with autonomic disorders may have diabetes or a NDG condition which is poorly treatable. Pro. Autonomic testing in a legitimate lab is objective, unique, and often helpful, and you are the only one that can interpret it. You have a test that you can say is normal which lets you send the patient back to the referring doctor. There are some occasional rare, interesting pathologies.

Headache: Con. Nearly sole reliance on a subjective symptom. Psychiatric overlay frequently clouds treatment effect. You typically only see the most difficult headache patients, and the ones that are responsive to typical therapies stay with their general neurologist. Pro. Sometimes you are the only one that really listens to the patient and figures out they don’t have migraine but rather hemicrania continua and put them on indomethacin which resolves their headache for the first time in 40 years. You often can at least expand the work-up and obtain MRA/MRV or cervical spine imaging which may detect an undiagnosed issue. Procedures.

Neuro-ID: Con. Relatively high levels of morbidity and mortality. Only available in large academic centers, often research-based. Pro. You get to use a lot of medicine training outside of conventional neurology. See a lot of interesting cases which may or may not be neuro-infectious in nature. You are very subspecialized and probably pretty sharp.

Neurocritical care: Con. Working in the hospital, frequently being on call. Steep learning curve. Relatively high levels of morbidity and mortality despite modern-day medicine. Pro. You get to use a lot of medicine outside of traditional neurology. You are relatively shielded from ridiculous consults and functional patients—getting to focus on treating real disease. For the treatable patients, you were the doctor that was with them in their darkest hour and made them better. Procedures.

Palliative care neurology: Con. Palliative care. Pro. Neurology.

Sports neurology. Con. Neurology. Pro. Sports.
Incredible write up. Thank you very much.
 
I'm an inpatient neurologist boarded in Epilepsy and I've worked in comprehensive stroke centers handling stroke call, Neuro ICU (open units), etc. A few comments on the above post:

Stroke: I largely agree. Lots of services will wash their hands of any sort of neuro change by calling a code stroke, inpatient or through the E.D. Be it for the liver bomb patient who suddenly goes altered "BuT hE wAs FiNe On ShIfT cHaNgE" or for any sort of pseudo neurological symptom that comes through the E.D. and yes they will sometimes call stroke codes without getting any sort of history first. Additionally, panconsulting is a problem so you do see a ton of general neuro. It's very rare for an inpatient neurology job to be purely stroke. Also in my experience interacting with boarded stroke neurologists they're not all created equal (as with any subspecialty, really).

It is worth noting though that primary services exist pretty much exclusively in residency programs. Therefore, I haven't dealt with people pushing admits on me from the E.D. because "prove it's not a stroke" (which is BS but I digress). That being said I agree when you see a good TPA/endovascular recovery it feels awesome, and no clinic is pretty nice too.

Epilepsy: I didn't really deal with many calls for breakthrough seizures during fellowships. Epileptics know they seize every now and again and know their triggers. If anything people tend to under-report. What I DID run into were a lot of calls about side effects (Keppra making me sleepy, etc) which were kind of annoying when I had already disclosed them but I digress. Pseudoseizures are a problem, and when someone has both epileptic and pseudo you're in for a tough time. It's very hard to get some patients to accept their diagnosis and seek help OR find someone who can provide those services so they're quite difficult to discharge from your clinic.

Getting up to read EEGs at night if you're on call kinda sucks, especially if there's someone who is intubated and shivering and you have people calling you frantically.

As far as surgical evaluations go well you pretty much need to be in an academic center or a very well built program because you need a good EMU, competent surgeon, and lots of support to do anything but the most basic VNS management. That being said some of these cases are big wins, and you develop good relationships with your regular patients.
thanks for the insight. much appreciated.
 
Amazing write up by Spintohalamic.

I couldn't agree more regarding neuromuscular. I'm glad that I'm able to break up my week into EMG days and clinic days. It adds variety and I think I'd be very burned out if I was doing clinic visits 100% of the time. It also tends to reimburse slightly better than equivalent time spent doing E/M visits.

I'd also add that for community neuro, having detailed knowledge of the peripheral nervous system really comes in handy.
Since you split your weeks into clinic/emg days. How many emgs would you say one needs to do weekly to keep up the skill? How do you feel about PT's, PM&R and others doing ncs/emgs?

Neurologists tell me how expensive and hard the electrophysiology board exam is and the importance of a strong neuro background but then they told me how PCP, PT, PM&R and pretty much everyone was doing it which is why CMS cut reimbursements because of frauds. I was shocked and confused.
 
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Incredible write up above. I think one pro of endovascular and pain is the reimbursement too. I doubt anyone would go NIR if it paid like a behavioural subspecialist lol.

I haven't started residency, but recently I shadowed someone who did pain+EMG+general neurology. 3-3.5 days of pain procedures/clinic, 1/2 day emg and the rest general neurology. Pain itself is said to be boring (although it wasn't for me), but maybe combining it with a bit of general neurology makes it more appealing (especially if you have detailed knowledge of neuromuscular and emg, either through residency or an NM fellowship), and the guy makes 500k+ doing so in a decent non-coastal place (which is probably outside the scope of outpatient neuro unless rural). Again, I am not a neurologist (applied for residency this year), so I don't have a broad understanding of many subspecialties yet.
Thanks. Good luck with your residency applications.
 
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Since you split your weeks into clinic/emg days. How many emgs would you say one needs to do weekly to keep up the skill? How do you feel about PT's, PM&R and others doing ncs/emgs?

Neurologists tell me how expensive and hard the electrophysiology board exam is and the importance of a strong neuro background but then they told me how PCP, PT, PM&R and pretty much everyone was doing it which is why CMS cut reimbursements because of frauds. I was shocked and confused.

I do about 3 half days of EMGs every two weeks and that’s enough to keep up my skills. I have been in practice for 3.5 years post fellowship and gradually I have cut back on my EMGs as I was initially doing them 3 days per week. Gradually, however, the volume of my clinic and daily inpatient census increased - so I had to make changes to accommodate all of that. I also found that my department’s priority has always been about improving clinic access and EMGs are an afterthought for them - probably at least partially cause EMGs don’t reimburse well enough.
 
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Do you do botox for movement stuff like blephs, dystonia etc?
FYI, botox is generally more under the umbrella of movement disorders than neuromuscular at most places simply because the most common reasons for botox are movement disorders. At some places neuromuscular will do it too, particularly EMG-guided injections for limb dystonia. However at my current center and others I'm most familiar with, movement disorders does the vast majority including EMG and/or ultrasound guided BTX.
 
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Since you split your weeks into clinic/emg days. How many emgs would you say one needs to do weekly to keep up the skill? How do you feel about PT's, PM&R and others doing ncs/emgs?

Neurologists tell me how expensive and hard the electrophysiology board exam is and the importance of a strong neuro background but then they told me how PCP, PT, PM&R and pretty much everyone was doing it which is why CMS cut reimbursements because of frauds. I was shocked and confused.
I was also surprised to learn that you could do neuromuscular from PMR residency as neurologists say it requires a wide breadth and depth of understanding of neurological disease as well as being able to pick up subtle findings from the patient's hx and physical exam. But you don't even need to have gone through neurology residency to practice the specialty in the same way that a neurologist would.

While I much prefer the content in neurology, the residency seems killer compared to PMR, and the specialty I'm most interested in neurology is neuromuscular medicine because I really like logical thinking and diagnostic reasoning. So I might just do a PMR residency followed by neuromuscular fellowship. It let's me get to the same destination without burning out.
 
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I was also surprised to learn that you could do neuromuscular from PMR residency as neurologists say it requires a wide breadth and depth of understanding of neurological disease as well as being able to pick up subtle findings from the patient's hx and physical exam. But you don't even need to have gone through neurology residency to practice the specialty in the same way that a neurologist would.

While I much prefer the content in neurology, the residency seems killer compared to PMR, and the specialty I'm most interested in neurology is neuromuscular medicine because I really like logical thinking and diagnostic reasoning. So I might just do a PMR residency followed by neuromuscular fellowship. It let's me get to the same destination without burning out.
I wouldn't make a whole speciality career choice just because of the slight difference in rigor of training. Neurology residency as hard, but empowering.

Wouldn't you prefer to be the ultimate specialist in neuromuscular disease and not just a PMR doctor with some extra training in EMG/NCS?
PMR doctors are great for simple EMG cases (radic, basic mononeuropathies, simple sensorimotor polyneuropathies). However, once the question is outside those specific dx...you'll want to be a fellowship trained neuromuscular neurologist
 
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I was also surprised to learn that you could do neuromuscular from PMR residency as neurologists say it requires a wide breadth and depth of understanding of neurological disease as well as being able to pick up subtle findings from the patient's hx and physical exam. But you don't even need to have gone through neurology residency to practice the specialty in the same way that a neurologist would.

While I much prefer the content in neurology, the residency seems killer compared to PMR, and the specialty I'm most interested in neurology is neuromuscular medicine because I really like logical thinking and diagnostic reasoning. So I might just do a PMR residency followed by neuromuscular fellowship. It let's me get to the same destination without burning out.
Yeah, but as you mentioned, the knowledge base required to be comfortable and good at neuromuscular, is really best obtained through Neuro. And if you like the content of Neuro, that should make the choice pretty clear. In the long run a tough residency is a small blip in a long career. I am also interested in Neuromuscular and am going to do a Neuro residency. I feel it will best prepare me.
 
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I was also surprised to learn that you could do neuromuscular from PMR residency as neurologists say it requires a wide breadth and depth of understanding of neurological disease as well as being able to pick up subtle findings from the patient's hx and physical exam. But you don't even need to have gone through neurology residency to practice the specialty in the same way that a neurologist would.

While I much prefer the content in neurology, the residency seems killer compared to PMR, and the specialty I'm most interested in neurology is neuromuscular medicine because I really like logical thinking and diagnostic reasoning. So I might just do a PMR residency followed by neuromuscular fellowship. It let's me get to the same destination without burning out.
Being able to do EMGs and 'neuromuscular' is very different than being an expert in it. Avoiding burn out is very important and PMR is one of the very best residencies for that. PMR guys are great and do good work. They aren't experts at neuromuscular disease however. I've trained under several true experts in neuromuscular medicine with NEJM publications on ALS, etc. Getting to that level of understanding really requires being a neurologist, as all kinds of weird stuff will get sent to you (CPEO, mitochondrial myopathies, HSP, every flavor of LGMD and CMT, even SCAs). Some of these will have other stuff like seizures and movement disorders mixed in. You can't sort out all of these various problems in the most complicated patients without a broad understanding of Neurology. I haven't seen PMR confidently diagnose ALS on a routine basis either, even when they do a high volume of EMGs- there are a lot of central features one needs to be good at sorting through beyond just the EMG, and always confounders like diabetic neuropathy and cervical myelopathy.

If you want to relax and just be a guy that does EMGs, sure PMR is a good choice. If you want to be an expert in neuromuscular disease, PMR is not a short cut and people will 100% notice if you don't know what you are doing at the end of all of that training when you take on complex patients that have already been seen elsewhere and had extensive work ups. PMR is great for the other stuff we don't get much at all of in neuro like customizing DME/managing prosthetics, evaluating and optimizing rehab potential for spinal chord injury/stroke/severe TBI, and optimal chronic spinal chord injury management- it is a different specialty with a different mentality/focus but a lot of overlap and essentially the same patient population.
 
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I was also surprised to learn that you could do neuromuscular from PMR residency as neurologists say it requires a wide breadth and depth of understanding of neurological disease as well as being able to pick up subtle findings from the patient's hx and physical exam. But you don't even need to have gone through neurology residency to practice the specialty in the same way that a neurologist would.

While I much prefer the content in neurology, the residency seems killer compared to PMR, and the specialty I'm most interested in neurology is neuromuscular medicine because I really like logical thinking and diagnostic reasoning. So I might just do a PMR residency followed by neuromuscular fellowship. It let's me get to the same destination without burning out.
Very few neuromuscular programs have consistently taken PM&R grads. Neuromuscular med is one of the more complex subspecialties in neurology and perhaps all of medicine. If interested in neuromuscular career you would be better positioned in completing a neurology residency. Otherwise you'd be at a serious disadvantage. Would be hard to cover that much ground making up for neuro knowledge/skill deficit in a yr or two of fellowship.
 
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Just for another perspective, a lot of people here are saying physiatrists aren't great at EMGs. That's true. Some programs are much better than others in their training. But if you're finishing the same neuromuscular fellowship as neurologists with the same competency requirements, what does it matter which pathway you went? While there's a lot of overlap in pathology, the day to day of PM&R and neuro residents are completely different, and in neither residency is neuromuscular going to be your bread and butter, so keep that in mind. Also my 2 c, my hosp has a very well regarded neuromuscular fellowship and they take PM&R, including this past year. If you are deadset on NM and that's the only thing youre into, then go neurology IMO.
 
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Just for another perspective, a lot of people here are saying physiatrists aren't great at EMGs. That's true. Some programs are much better than others in their training. But if you're finishing the same neuromuscular fellowship as neurologists with the same competency requirements, what does it matter which pathway you went? While there's a lot of overlap in pathology, the day to day of PM&R and neuro residents are completely different, and in neither residency is neuromuscular going to be your bread and butter, so keep that in mind. Also my 2 c, my hosp has a very well regarded neuromuscular fellowship and they take PM&R, including this past year. If you are deadset on NM and that's the only thing youre into, then go neurology IMO.
Just out of curiosity why is your conclusion to do neurology residency if you say neither of them get much exposure in neuromuscular throughout residency and they both have to acquire the same competencies during fellowship?
 
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Just out of curiosity why is your conclusion to do neurology residency if you say neither of them get much exposure in neuromuscular throughout residency and they both have to acquire the same competencies during fellowship
Most fellows are from Neuro, usually housed in Neuro dept, and as someone said before I believe some fellowship programs don’t take pmr grads. Find a mentor in the field and ask them. I’m just a pmr resident who once has a passing interest in NM.
 
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I do about 3 half days of EMGs every two weeks and that’s enough to keep up my skills. I have been in practice for 3.5 years post fellowship and gradually I have cut back on my EMGs as I was initially doing them 3 days per week. Gradually, however, the volume of my clinic and daily inpatient census increased - so I had to make changes to accommodate all of that. I also found that my department’s priority has always been about improving clinic access and EMGs are an afterthought for them - probably at least partially cause EMGs don’t reimburse well enough.
If emgs were such a big part of your week, I assume that as your practice grew so would the need for emgs, no? Or is the physical exam enough to make the diagnosis. Also does this mean that seeing clinic patients reimburse more than doing emgs?
 
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FYI, botox is generally more under the umbrella of movement disorders than neuromuscular at most places simply because the most common reasons for botox are movement disorders. At some places neuromuscular will do it too, particularly EMG-guided injections for limb dystonia. However at my current center and others I'm most familiar with, movement disorders does the vast majority including EMG and/or ultrasound guided BTX.
Thank you. I was talking to a Neuromuscular person who do EMG-guided botox for spasticity, limb dystonia, blephs. I guess thats not the norm.
 
I was also surprised to learn that you could do neuromuscular from PMR residency as neurologists say it requires a wide breadth and depth of understanding of neurological disease as well as being able to pick up subtle findings from the patient's hx and physical exam. But you don't even need to have gone through neurology residency to practice the specialty in the same way that a neurologist would.

While I much prefer the content in neurology, the residency seems killer compared to PMR, and the specialty I'm most interested in neurology is neuromuscular medicine because I really like logical thinking and diagnostic reasoning. So I might just do a PMR residency followed by neuromuscular fellowship. It let's me get to the same destination without burning out.
Thats an interesting take. But the catch is you have to already know what you want to do! PMR sounds good, plus theres lots of quick procedures. But I dont know if I'm willing to give up all the high acuity stuff, or other interesting pathology. Lets say I just decided to work after residency would I be happy being a general neuro or PMR? I would prefer neuro. you know?
 
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Being able to do EMGs and 'neuromuscular' is very different than being an expert in it. Avoiding burn out is very important and PMR is one of the very best residencies for that. PMR guys are great and do good work. They aren't experts at neuromuscular disease however. I've trained under several true experts in neuromuscular medicine with NEJM publications on ALS, etc. Getting to that level of understanding really requires being a neurologist, as all kinds of weird stuff will get sent to you (CPEO, mitochondrial myopathies, HSP, every flavor of LGMD and CMT, even SCAs). Some of these will have other stuff like seizures and movement disorders mixed in. You can't sort out all of these various problems in the most complicated patients without a broad understanding of Neurology. I haven't seen PMR confidently diagnose ALS on a routine basis either, even when they do a high volume of EMGs- there are a lot of central features one needs to be good at sorting through beyond just the EMG, and always confounders like diabetic neuropathy and cervical myelopathy.

If you want to relax and just be a guy that does EMGs, sure PMR is a good choice. If you want to be an expert in neuromuscular disease, PMR is not a short cut and people will 100% notice if you don't know what you are doing at the end of all of that training when you take on complex patients that have already been seen elsewhere and had extensive work ups. PMR is great for the other stuff we don't get much at all of in neuro like customizing DME/managing prosthetics, evaluating and optimizing rehab potential for spinal chord injury/stroke/severe TBI, and optimal chronic spinal chord injury management- it is a different specialty with a different mentality/focus but a lot of overlap and essentially the same patient population.
Great explanation. I thought that because PMR and Neuro did the same fellowship that they will both be equally qualified.
 
Thank you. I was talking to a Neuromuscular person who do EMG-guided botox for spasticity, limb dystonia, blephs. I guess thats not the norm.
In my fellowship NM/CNP doing EMG guided botox was very common, including for dystonia/bleph. PMR guys do botox without fellowship commonly from what I have seen no problem.

Thats an interesting take. But the catch is you have to already know what you want to do! PMR sounds good, plus theres lots of quick procedures. But I dont know if I'm willing to give up all the high acuity stuff, or other interesting pathology. Lets say I just decided to work after residency would I be happy being a general neuro or PMR? I would prefer neuro. you know?
Yes this is the central choice. I still enjoy the acuity with neurology- treating status and stroke can be very satisfying and one of the few ways you occasionally get instant big results. Having aphasia melt away in front of you once can make you feel all of the suffering in medical training was worth it.

Great explanation. I thought that because PMR and Neuro did the same fellowship that they will both be equally qualified.
You could get your EMG skills to the same level certainly (ABEM is the same board), sure but you'll be missing a lot of the complexity in neurology. Big difference from your first exposure to MG being in fellowship from a PMR angle to doing fellowship having managed several patients in MG crisis in residency and titrated their meds in resident clinic dealing with the complications afterwards. That's just one example aside from the gad-65 patients and all the other bizarre stuff, along with the psychogenic variants that plague you as a resident.
 
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Just my 2 PM&R cents.

First, PM&R residency requires, at minimum, 200 EMG studies (max 50 observed, at least 150 performed). The quality of these studies will depend on where you train, just like neurologists who perform these studies without a fellowship in CNP / NM. If a PM&R resident is only ever exposed to bread n' butter CTS, radics, PN, then they likely won't feel comfortable going past that. At large academic centers where PM&R is trained to do EMG by CNP / NM specialists, we do learn how to do brachial plexopathies, CIDP, interpret rep stim, motor neuron diseases, myopathies, etc. It all depends on where you train. There are PM&R physicians involved in AANEM who are (A) boarded by ABEM in Electrodiagnostic Medicine and (B) are certified by ABEM in neuromuscular ultrasound.

Regarding PM&R's role in neuromuscular medicine, how it has been explained to me is as follows: even though PM&R can go through a neuromuscular fellowship, typically they will not be the ones doing the IVIG, immunosuppressant therapies, or nerve biopsy performance/reads (those who perform these or manage these are likely the exception rather than the rule). PM&R will end up practicing more as an electrodiagnostic physician, doing heavy EMG, often with the incorporation of ultrasound (which is already taught to us during residency), in addition to general musculoskeletal medicine. Most PM&R who do neuromuscular fellowships do this because they either (A) didn't get the vast exposure to the other pathologies in residency or (B) barely hit that 200 number and want more EMG experience.
TL;DR: Typically (not the rule) neuro NM / PM&R NM practice differently, but both can do the fellowships and both can be boarded.

I will say, being in an EMG laboratory, there is a benefit of having PM&R-trained in there as well, as we get a lot of musculoskeletal pathology exposure and oftentimes can pick up on other pathologies that are not EMG related that the patient was referred for, that maybe mimics an EMG pathology (ex. hip joint pain vs. lumbar radic OR lateral epicondylitis vs. cervical radic OR trochanteric pain syndrome vs. L5 radic).

Long story short, I wouldn't be so quick to knock PM&R for performing EMG's. We can be very well-trained and be very useful in an EMG laboratory. Plus, we have extensive knowledge of peripheral nerve and musculoskeletal anatomy, as this is a primary part of our residency training.

Oh! And PM&R is also trained to do Botox injections, without a fellowship. Many spinal cord injury and brain injury fellowship have another component of botox training in there, but we also get extensive botox training during residency. Our botox training focuses more on spasticity, or perhaps pain depending on where you train, and I would say likely less on migraine protocol, dystonias, etc, however, I have seen pediatric rehab physicians perform botox for dystonias, torticollis, and sialorrhea.
 
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Just my 2 PM&R cents.

First, PM&R residency requires, at minimum, 200 EMG studies (max 50 observed, at least 150 performed). The quality of these studies will depend on where you train, just like neurologists who perform these studies without a fellowship in CNP / NM. If a PM&R resident is only ever exposed to bread n' butter CTS, radics, PN, then they likely won't feel comfortable going past that. At large academic centers where PM&R is trained to do EMG by CNP / NM specialists, we do learn how to do brachial plexopathies, CIDP, interpret rep stim, motor neuron diseases, myopathies, etc. It all depends on where you train. There are PM&R physicians involved in AANEM who are (A) boarded by ABEM in Electrodiagnostic Medicine and (B) are certified by ABEM in neuromuscular ultrasound.

Regarding PM&R's role in neuromuscular medicine, how it has been explained to me is as follows: even though PM&R can go through a neuromuscular fellowship, typically they will not be the ones doing the IVIG, immunosuppressant therapies, or nerve biopsy performance/reads (those who perform these or manage these are likely the exception rather than the rule). PM&R will end up practicing more as an electrodiagnostic physician, doing heavy EMG, often with the incorporation of ultrasound (which is already taught to us during residency), in addition to general musculoskeletal medicine. Most PM&R who do neuromuscular fellowships do this because they either (A) didn't get the vast exposure to the other pathologies in residency or (B) barely hit that 200 number and want more EMG experience.
TL;DR: Typically (not the rule) neuro NM / PM&R NM practice differently, but both can do the fellowships and both can be boarded.

I will say, being in an EMG laboratory, there is a benefit of having PM&R-trained in there as well, as we get a lot of musculoskeletal pathology exposure and oftentimes can pick up on other pathologies that are not EMG related that the patient was referred for, that maybe mimics an EMG pathology (ex. hip joint pain vs. lumbar radic OR lateral epicondylitis vs. cervical radic OR trochanteric pain syndrome vs. L5 radic).

Long story short, I wouldn't be so quick to knock PM&R for performing EMG's. We can be very well-trained and be very useful in an EMG laboratory. Plus, we have extensive knowledge of peripheral nerve and musculoskeletal anatomy, as this is a primary part of our residency training.

Oh! And PM&R is also trained to do Botox injections, without a fellowship. Many spinal cord injury and brain injury fellowship have another component of botox training in there, but we also get extensive botox training during residency. Our botox training focuses more on spasticity, or perhaps pain depending on where you train, and I would say likely less on migraine protocol, dystonias, etc, however, I have seen pediatric rehab physicians perform botox for dystonias, torticollis, and sialorrhea.
Very helpful post and completely agree with almost all of your points- except that in NM immunosuppression is essentially the mainstay of much of outpatient clinic, and plenty of patients in NM clinic show up with rare diagnoses that go well beyond a myopathy or MND with central pathology or general neurology issues that also needs accurate diagnosis and management. You can't really manage MG/CIDP at all without understanding the immunosuppression needed to treat them, and these are essentially bread and butter in an NM clinic. That said, anyone ABEM certified should be able to do a passable EMG and students should know its the same board for both specialties.

Joint issues will be completely missed by a neurologist (we get absolutely no training in them) and is an area where PM&R can really help. Even trochanteric bursitis for example could be misdiagnosed as our boards, residency training etc really don't touch on joint issues. The reality is that most neurology patients with chronic, substantial disability are best served by having both a neurologist and physiatrist.
 
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How many days a month or weeks a year do neurointensivists typically work?
In a community setting its typically week on week off for a total of ~26 weeks a year. In academics it varies a lot depending on your administrative, teaching, research roles and I've seen anywhere from 8 weeks on service on the low side to mid teens on the higher side.

Academic medicine is a different story but in the community when you are off you are off. No patient messages, no refills, no prior authorizations, no DMV forms. Neurohospitalist is also a growing model with a similar schedule if clinic isn't your thing.
 
In a community setting its typically week on week off for a total of ~26 weeks a year. In academics it varies a lot depending on your administrative, teaching, research roles and I've seen anywhere from 8 weeks on service on the low side to mid teens on the higher side.

Academic medicine is a different story but in the community when you are off you are off. No patient messages, no refills, no prior authorizations, no DMV forms. Neurohospitalist is also a growing model with a similar schedule if clinic isn't your thing.
For the weeks on, are they 12 hour days or 15 hour days or? And when you're home, are you bothered with pages those weeks you are on or is there in house staff that handles things while you're not on site?
 
For the weeks on, are they 12 hour days or 15 hour days or? And when you're home, are you bothered with pages those weeks you are on or is there in house staff that handles things while you're not on site?
That will be variable. If you are in an academic setting there will usually either be an in house fellow or fellow on home call. Depending on the time of year and fellow comfort level you may or may not get calls from them.

In the community you may be the primary point of contact or there may be night shift PA/NPs in which case they may or may not need to call you for management decision or to come in for procedures.
 
I agree neurology clinic at least for me was soul crushing. When I was a resident the inbox was a nightmare to manage, and a good amount of what you see outpatient is nonsense. Don't get me wrong, it's the same inpatient but at least you can sign off and when you're off you're truly off.

For my friends who stayed in academics the name of the game is buy as much of your time for research as you can to get out of doing 1.0 clinical.
 
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I agree neurology clinic at least for me was soul crushing. When I was a resident the inbox was a nightmare to manage, and a good amount of what you see outpatient is nonsense. Don't get me wrong, it's the same inpatient but at least you can sign off and when you're off you're truly off.

For my friends who stayed in academics the name of the game is buy as much of your time for research as you can to get out of doing 1.0 clinical.
What does buying mean? If (let’s say) $240k is the starting salary for for full clinical assistant professor at State Uni X, does that mean a 2.5 days of research+ 2.5 days of clinical would amount to a $120k salary? Or a 4 day research + 1 day clinical amount to essentially $48k?
 
Let's say you make 240k a year. You get a research grant for 24k. You've "bought" 0.1 FTE. Now you only see patients 90% of the time, and do research the other 10%.

Essentially that.
 
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Also keep in mind that even if you do Movement or Neuromuscular you will not be doing that 100% of the time and will see general neurology patients as well (a large proportion of which is not neurology as we have discussed). This is absolutely true in a community setting and even in a lot of academic settings an early career Movement or Neuromuscular attending is probably going to get shunted general patients that the senior attendings with the real interesting subspecialty patient population dont want to book in their clinic.
 
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I was also surprised to learn that you could do neuromuscular from PMR residency as neurologists say it requires a wide breadth and depth of understanding of neurological disease as well as being able to pick up subtle findings from the patient's hx and physical exam. But you don't even need to have gone through neurology residency to practice the specialty in the same way that a neurologist would.

While I much prefer the content in neurology, the residency seems killer compared to PMR, and the specialty I'm most interested in neurology is neuromuscular medicine because I really like logical thinking and diagnostic reasoning. So I might just do a PMR residency followed by neuromuscular fellowship. It let's me get to the same destination without burning out.
IMO the ability to perform an EMG does not make one a neuromuscular specialist. I wouldn't do PM&R if you are interested in neurology. The fun part of neurology is finding the diagnosis. From the outside, PM&R seems like a specialty where the diagnosis is already made and you manage symptomatically.
 
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