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I asked this before, but I'm not sure if I asked you specifically -- is the MCAT then not a great equalizer? If someone could have gone to a T20 school but did not, for whatever reason, are they now screwed unless they are one of the lucky few to be able to break through, even with a superlative GPA that is not taken as seriously as one from Yale, and a tippy top MCAT that should be valued the same coming from New Haven as Yale? (I.e., a 4.0/522 from New Haven will never be the same as 4.0/522 from Yale, but at the end of the day, there are only so many 522s (and 4.0s!), so does the person from New Haven still have little to no chance because a 3.8/518 from Yale is still more desirable at your school?)Is the school on the list of top 20 research universities or top 20 LACs? Then it is top tier. Next are the top 50, and then the top 100. after that, there isn't much selectivity so that aspect drops off. Someone will take a 3.8 from Yale more seriously than a 3.8 from The University of New Haven although they are both private schools within a couple miles of each other. Unfortunately, the deck is stacked against students from lower tier schools but it is not impossible to break through.
Yeah, my question goes way beyond the advantage at HYPSM to the deck being stacked against people from lower tier schools at top tier schools, possibly regardless of stats? Hopefully @LizzyM and @gyngyn can shed light on whether I am reading too much into the comment above.we had a thread on that and I believe @efle did some analysis on that. I believe you get some advantage by going to HYPSM. If not GPA, may be for ECs?
i'll let the actual adcoms have the final word, but i think there wouldn't be a huge difference if its like the state flagship school, especially because people who could've gone to top undergrads but choose their state school for financial reasons often end up in very competitive honors scholarship programs that can show they were a competitive applicant last time around. a lot of people were choosing between top 20 undergrads and my state flagship honors program, and chose the honors program, so i think adcoms would see that and realize they're comparable. but who knows?
This is what I'm hoping, but I get nervous when I hear "the deck is stacked against students from lower tier schools."i'll let the actual adcoms have the final word, but i think there wouldn't be a huge difference if its like the state flagship school, especially because people who could've gone to top undergrads but choose their state school for financial reasons often end up in very competitive honors scholarship programs that can show they were a competitive applicant last time around. a lot of people were choosing between top 20 undergrads and my state flagship honors program, and chose the honors program, so i think adcoms would see that and realize they're comparable. but who knows?
do they really care about making things equal or more interested in their rankings and bragging rights?This is what I'm hoping, but I get nervous when I hear "the deck is stacked against students from lower tier schools."
Meaning, if "someone will take a 3.8 from Yale more seriously than a 3.8 from The University of New Haven although they are both private schools within a couple miles of each other," how does @LizzyM know that the person actually was admitted to Yale, but chose New Haven for the full ride, and, even if she did know, would she care? That's what this comes down to.
As you know, and as @LizzyM might or might not know or care about, honors programs are very popular today at public schools all across the country for high stat HS students who are not eligible for need-based financial aid coming from families who either haven't saved $400K for UG or don't think it is worth it with grad school on the horizon. The question comes down to whether med schools have adjusted to this reality, or if they are in a bubble where they really do value the 3.8/518 from Yale more highly than the 4.0/522 from New Haven, all else being equal.
the issue with the New Haven analogy is that it is another private school that likely can't offer the same level of scholarship and fin aid as Yale can, so its unlikely someone chose that school over Yale because of financial reasons. but choosing Alabama over Yale could be a smart financial decision, especially if you got into a selective program that helped groom your research skillsThis is what I'm hoping, but I get nervous when I hear "the deck is stacked against students from lower tier schools."
Meaning, if "someone will take a 3.8 from Yale more seriously than a 3.8 from The University of New Haven although they are both private schools within a couple miles of each other," how does @LizzyM know that the person actually was admitted to Yale, but chose New Haven for the full ride, and, even if she did know, would she care? That's what this comes down to.
As you know, and as @LizzyM might or might not know or care about, honors programs are very popular today at public schools all across the country for high stat HS students who are not eligible for need-based financial aid coming from families who either haven't saved $400K for UG or don't think it is worth it with grad school on the horizon. The question comes down to whether med schools have adjusted to this reality, or if they are in a bubble where they really do value the 3.8/518 from Yale more highly than the 4.0/522 from New Haven, all else being equal.
Neither. I just think they like pulling from schools that produce known quantities from past experience, but it will really suck if it means equally talented people are shut out because the deck is stacked against their school.do they really care about making things equal or more interested in their rankings and bragging rights?
Okay, I'm not in the weeds regarding whether New Haven is offering scholarships to lure high stat students away from Yale, but your Alabama example captures my point. I only used New Haven because @LizzyM did. The name of the school is irrelevant.the issue with the New Haven analogy is that it is another private school that likely can't offer the same level of scholarship and fin aid as Yale can, so its unlikely someone chose that school over Yale because of financial reasons. but choosing Alabama over Yale could be a smart financial decision, especially if you got into a selective program that helped groom your research skills
have you tried being wealthier?Okay, I'm not in the weeds regarding whether New Haven is offering scholarships to lure high stat students away from Yale, but your Alabama example captures my point. I only used New Haven because @LizzyM did. The name of the school is irrelevant.
The point is a lot of high stat HS students are not paying $350,000+ for bachelors degrees when lower tier schools have responded with cost effective options that provide high quality experiences in lower tier environments. The question is whether @LizzyM tier schools care about bringing such students into their schools, or are they not able to overcome whatever stigma is attached to coming from Alabama, no matter how good the senior thesis, or how high the GPA and MCAT, because Alabama will never be Princeton?
or are they not able to overcome whatever stigma is attached to coming from Alabama, no matter how good the senior thesis, or how high the GPA and MCAT, because Alabama will never be Princeton?
is it really .5 lower? like 3.7 vs 3.2? or .05?My two cents: you'll never be barred admission or have a tangible disadvantage (on paper) when you're applying. The advantage of going to a "top" school probably more so comes from the opportunities and resources you have there when compared to something like a state flagship school. I'll pull some statistics from UChicago (a top 10 school, I suppose that fits your criteria). The average accepted med school applicant GPA is ~.5 lower than the national average, the average MCAT is a 516 (which is pretty damn high), and the % accepted is something like 85%. Obviously this is all after weeding out and all that, but nonetheless this tells me two things: med school somewhat consider the rigor of a top school, being that all the students are extremely high achieving/high-scoring students as opposed to a state school (generally), and that said rigor leads to a higher MCAT score. Research opportunities, especially fellowships, are also generally much easier to get at these schools, and premed advising is generally better.
Also, AAMC guidebook does say that 'undergraduate institution' is indeed a factor (albeit in the lowest tier) so clearly it's something they look at haha
Oh crap, totally not .5, I meant .05. A .5 difference would be....quite a lot...sorry about that. Still, a .05 difference can amount to like 1-4 A-/B+'s which is still significant, imo.is it really .5 lower? like 3.7 vs 3.2? or .05?
thats my undergrad lol and while its definitely a deflating school i'd be surprised if it was really a .5 differential
no problem, you had me excited for a second lolOh crap, totally not .5, I meant .05. A .5 difference would be....quite a lot...sorry about that.
Oh crap, totally not .5, I meant .05. A .5 difference would be....quite a lot...sorry about that. Still, a .05 difference can amount to like 1-4 A-/B+'s which is still significant, imo.
That seems off, .2 is really high considering Harvard is a grade inflating school while a notorious deflating school like UChicago only appears to have a <0.05 difference.I believe it's a 0.2 differential for Harvard UGs (as in, average GPA for Harvard UG is ~3.7 for top med schools, as opposed to the overall average of 3.9). I'd wager it's similar for the rest of HYPSM.
That seems off, .2 is really high considering Harvard is a grade inflating school while a notorious deflating school like UChicago only appears to have a <0.05 difference.
i agree, i feel like if you have below a 3.9 at Harvard you must really be strugglingThat seems off, .2 is really high considering Harvard is a grade inflating school while a notorious deflating school like UChicago only appears to have a <0.05 difference.
I asked this before, but I'm not sure if I asked you specifically -- is the MCAT then not a great equalizer? If someone could have gone to a T20 school but did not, for whatever reason, are they now screwed unless they are one of the lucky few to be able to break through, even with a superlative GPA that is not taken as seriously as one from Yale, and a tippy top MCAT that should be valued the same coming from New Haven as Yale? (I.e., a 4.0/522 from New Haven will never be the same as 4.0/522 from Yale, but at the end of the day, there are only so many 522s (and 4.0s!), so does the person from New Haven still have little to no chance because a 3.8/518 from Yale is still more desirable at your school?)
Sure! The question is whether being in an honors college, and doing really well, will be taken seriously at T20?Being in an "honors college" at your state university will be taken seriously by your in-state medical school(s), who recognize the rigor of the program.
the issue with the New Haven analogy is that it is another private school that likely can't offer the same level of scholarship and fin aid as Yale can, so its unlikely someone chose that school over Yale because of financial reasons. but choosing Alabama over Yale could be a smart financial decision, especially if you got into a selective program that helped groom your research skills
But do they ask same question to someone who chose to attend T10-T20 school over ivy due to $$$s or they generally have idea about which schools offer merit scholarships?I have also heard this when I've asked during interviews, "why did you choose to attend xyz for undergrad?"
If I see that you went to Alabama on a 100% scholarship, I might infer that you could have gone to a prestigious LAC or top research school but chose the most cost effective school given your options
It all starts in Kindergarten 🙂So in that sense, high school performance does matter.
I think it's somewhat regional; small liberal arts colleges are well know to nearby medical schools, but schools in other areas of the country may not be as familiar. The fewer the graduates of the school, the less likely that any particular medical school will have experience with them.
But the "name brands"are well known coast to coast, particularly to adcoms:
Williams
Amhurt
Bryn Mawr
Grinnell
Carleton
Claremont McKenna
Pomona
Washington & Lee
Just to mention a few in every region..
Would be curious to know whether any of the all women’s colleges - particularly of the Seven Sisters variety - is considered a name brand school.
It’s interesting that Swarthmore didn’t make your off-the-cuff list but Washington & Lee did.
What do adcoms think of St John's in Annapolis and its unique curriculum?
Too few to make the AAMC chartsI've been doing this for 20 years and I've never seen an applicant from St. John's in Annapolis. How many of its undergrads take the MCAT each year? How many apply? Does anyone know?
St. John's doesn't offer all the pre-reqs for medical school. One has to do a post-bac or summer classes elsewhere. You might as well ask what adcoms think of Berklee School of Music for one's undergraduate degree.
I’ve know Juilliard grads who got into top professional schools.
What do adcoms think of St John's in Annapolis and its unique curriculum?
So, this is the answer I was looking for. To a degree, the MCAT IS the great equalizer, and someone coming from a state school, on a scholarship, with great grades and a great MCAT, is NOT at a huge disadvantage to someone coming from a prestigious UG, with similar or somewhat lower stats, correct????I'll add that anecdotally I do know people at T5 med schools from state programs. They were in honors college and on scholarship. I even know someone who started out in community college. They all had strong MCATs and/or other "hooks" like URM, born and raised in small town rural midwest, nontrad with many years medical/clinical experience, etc.
I think your question might be irrelevant, because you are splitting hairs in comparing T20 to Ivies. You already get the advantage coming from T20; there is no "extra" advantage to be had coming from T20 with a scholarship, other than the fact you saved money on tuition! 😎But do they ask same question to someone who chose to attend T10-T20 school over ivy due to $$$s or they generally have idea about which schools offer merit scholarships?
So, this is the answer I was looking for. To a degree, the MCAT IS the great equalizer, and someone coming from a state school, on a scholarship, with great grades and a great MCAT, is NOT at a huge disadvantage to someone coming from a prestigious UG, with similar or somewhat lower stats, correct????
N=1, I’m not bitter or anything, but I had LM>80 and honestly very impressive ECs and an MPH, but I went to a no name UG and that’s the only part of my app I could see any “deficiency” in but I got very little love from top schools, and a lot of lower ranked schools probably thought I was too competitive for them based on numbers. Ended up at a great school, but I was under the same assumption that UG doesn’t matter, and it’s just not true. Maybe 20% of my class went to a state school, and to my knowledge, they were all, except mine, an “elite” state schools (Cal, UCLA, Michiga). Anyways I’d still recommend most people to not worry about it too much and go to the school that’s cheapest, bc in all likelihood that’s not going to be the determining factor in most people not getting into a top med school.So, this is the answer I was looking for. To a degree, the MCAT IS the great equalizer, and someone coming from a state school, on a scholarship, with great grades and a great MCAT, is NOT at a huge disadvantage to someone coming from a prestigious UG, with similar or somewhat lower stats, correct????
It's relevant 🙂 I hear HPYSM gives some advantage but I know several students who declined and chose schools like WashU, Vandy, Emory for scholarship and I believe @efle said attending those schools doesn't give any advantage (WashU vs Brown premed thread)I think your question might be irrelevant, because you are splitting hairs in comparing T20 to Ivies. You already get the advantage coming from T20; there is no "extra" advantage to be had coming from T20 with a scholarship, other than the fact you saved money on tuition! 😎
There is no hypothetical individual. 😎 This is a question I've had from the very beginning of my journey.Does this hypothetical individual’s name rhyme with BrightOc?
hypothetical KnightDoc already have their hypothetical school list 🙂They are certainly not to help a "hypothetical KnightDoc" develop a school list. 😎