What was the motive for ACGME to merge with the AOA?

[hallowmann]

I went to a state school ranked in the ~60s in US news. I don't think I've called my residency "high tier" but it is very competitive (due to location) and does not consider DOs.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

So overall I'd call your med school mid-tier then, so I'll delete you from my post since its not really relevant.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[brocephalic]

That's certainly part of it, but doesn't tell the whole story otherwise you'd see a similar result for urology (also an early match), which is one of if not the hardest fields for DOs to match into.

The other part of it is that really ophtho just isn't as competitive as the other surgical subspecialties.

We all agree that any DOs applying for surgical sub specialties in the ACGME match are at a disadvantage, regardless of their stats/numbers/connections. There are ample Qualified MD students to fill those spots. They probably don't even get looked at. I'm aware of that. You pretty much have to be able to walk on water and then have Lady Luck on your side.

However, that doesn't mean that DO programs are any less competitive, or have applicants with lesser stats. These programs so far only accommodated DOs, and most leadership is pretty hostile about the idea of even letting MDs apply. You may call it reverse discrimination or whatever. Therefore, you may see an occasional MD match at previous DO programs after the merger, but there will be no mass changes to the current system. I have sat through AOAO merger meetings, and have heard all the rants from the PDs. This will only change if/when DOs are on equal footing when applying to ACGME Ortho/oto, which we know is not going to any time soon.

 

[Psai]

I think what people are forgetting is that the bottom 1/3 (possibly 1/2) of current MD matriculants and the top 1/3 (possibly 1/2) of current DO matriculants are roughly the same population. We're talking about a difference between the matriculant means of basically a single standard deviation. It may make a big difference from the perspective of certain PDs, and it may make a noticeable difference come residency app time, but the difference really isn't that huge nor is it clearly delineated.

There is no real reason to assume that a top of their class DO couldn't possibly compete with an MD, because MDs in the bottom half of the matriculant class can and do rise to the top.

That said, none of us know exactly what will happen, we are all, on both sides, guessing. Let's give it a couple years. My guess is it'll be somewhere in the middle, some spots will be lost to MDs, but it won't be appreciable enough to hurt DOs to the degree its being implied on this thread.

1/3 vs 1/2 is a huge difference. You are talking about thousands of people, not that it matters because you're just pulling crap from your rear. Even with grade replacement, the top do schools barely come close to the bottom md schools in stats. It is not even close to the same population and the overlap is small. There are definitely superstars but they are few and far between. I don't know why you guys try to delude yourselves. I'm only posting to correct your misinformation because I don't want future applicants to read what you say and actually believe it. DOs are at a huge disadvantage when applying to residency. Many programs won't even consider them and will look at highly qualified imgs over them.

To the other guy, you can't compare step 1 scores. Every md student takes step 1. The do students that take it are a ridiculously self selected population.

 

[the argus]

We all agree that any DOs applying for surgical sub specialties in the ACGME match are at a disadvantage, regardless of their stats/numbers/connections. There are ample Qualified MD students to fill those spots. They probably don't even get looked at. I'm aware of that. You pretty much have to be able to walk on water and then have Lady Luck on your side.

However, that doesn't mean that DO programs are any less competitive, or have applicants with lesser stats. These programs so far only accommodated DOs, and most leadership is pretty hostile about the idea of even letting MDs apply. You may call it reverse discrimination or whatever. Therefore, you may see an occasional MD match at previous DO programs after the merger, but there will be no mass changes to the current system. I have sat through AOAO merger meetings, and have heard all the rants from the PDs. This will only change if/when DOs are on equal footing when applying to ACGME Ortho/oto, which we know is not going to any time soon.

Since you're a 4th year ortho resident at an AOA program, I'd guess this means you've sat through meetings at your home institution and heard rants from the (small) number of PDs there. Who knows, maybe you're talking about some national meeting where there were lots of PDs. Doesn't really matter.

One thing you are overlooking is that these aren't going to be DO/AOA programs anymore, so there are no guarantees that the PDs are going to remain DOs. There's a ton more MDs out there than DOs, so I'd be willing to bet that some of these previously DO-only programs are going to transition to MD PDs in the future. Then this (pretty childish) "scorned DO" idea magically disappears. I also can't imagine a DO PD will remain a PD for very long if they repeatedly pass over more qualified MD applicants for DOs just because of some ridiculous inferiority complex.

And the reason top USMDs are more desirable applicants than top DOs is because pedigree matters in medicine. Believe me, as a caribbean grad who would have ended up at a top tier residency if you kept my application the same but just changed the name of my school to a USMD institution, I feel the pain more than anyone. Doesn't change reality.

No one would argue that those DO applicants aren't stellar, I'm sure they are. But when you have to sort out hundreds or thousands of applications that are basically all the same (high steps, high grades, research, great letters, etc), you then move on to other things, and any USMD school is higher tier than any DO school. That's just reality.

 

[hallowmann]

1/3 vs 1/2 is a huge difference. You are talking about thousands of people, not that it matters because you're just pulling crap from your rear. Even with grade replacement, the top do schools barely come close to the bottom md schools in stats. It is not even close to the same population and the overlap is small. There are definitely superstars but they are few and far between. I don't know why you guys try to delude yourselves. I'm only posting to correct your misinformation because I don't want future applicants to read what you say and actually believe it. DOs are at a huge disadvantage when applying to residency. Many programs won't even consider them and will look at highly qualified imgs over them.

To the other guy, you can't compare step 1 scores. Every md student takes step 1. The do students that take it are a ridiculously self selected population.

I used 1/3 to 1/2 as a range, because the real numbers are hard to come by since there are many factors (like grade replacement that you mentioned) that we can't control for and will skew things. But lets try, since you believe I'm "pulling crap from (my) rear" even if we ignore grade replacement:

2015 Matriculant DO stats were:
Total GPA - 3.55
Total MCAT - 27.33

2015 Matriculant MD stats were:
Total GPA - 3.69, SD of 0.25
Total MCAT - 31.4, SD of 3.9

Sources:
http://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/data-and-trends/2012-15-matprofilerpt.pdf?sfvrsn=8
https://www.aamc.org/download/321494/data/factstablea16.pdf

Looking at that, the DO mean stats are basically within 1 SD below the mean of the MD stats. What does that mean statistically? That means that the top 50% of DO matriculants overlaps with the 16th to 50th percentile of MD matriculants. Am I still "pulling crap from (my) rear"? We're not all that different afterall (*kumbaya playing in the background*).

You can try all you want to explain away my statements as BS, but I made them with the numbers in mind. I wish we had more uniform and comparable data, but given what we have, I still stand by what I said.

Also, no one ever said DOs aren't at a disadvantage when it comes to applying to ACGME only programs. I certainly didn't. If you read my post, I actually imply the opposite.

Since you're a 4th year ortho resident at an AOA program, I'd guess this means you've sat through meetings at your home institution and heard rants from the (small) number of PDs there. Who knows, maybe you're talking about some national meeting where there were lots of PDs. Doesn't really matter.

One thing you are overlooking is that these aren't going to be DO/AOA programs anymore, so there are no guarantees that the PDs are going to remain DOs. There's a ton more MDs out there than DOs, so I'd be willing to bet that some of these previously DO-only programs are going to transition to MD PDs in the future...

In the long-run, this is going to happen, but not really in the short term. There's no incentive for it to happen immediately. DO PDs are already acceptable by the Ortho RC, so its not like they'll be actively replaced. It'll have to wait for normal PD turnover, which will happen. We'll see where everything is by then. I don't think we can predict what's going to happen in the next couple years, let alone what will happen a decade from now.

 

[Psai]

Wait lol have you ever seen a bell curve before? You know how the lines go really low really quick? It is definitely not one third to one half. And being almost a whole standard deviation for both gpa and mcat is pretty bad. 3.55 vs 3.7? 27 vs 31? That's a huge difference.

 

[IsWhat]

1/3 vs 1/2 is a huge difference. You are talking about thousands of people, not that it matters because you're just pulling crap from your rear. Even with grade replacement, the top do schools barely come close to the bottom md schools in stats. It is not even close to the same population and the overlap is small. There are definitely superstars but they are few and far between. I don't know why you guys try to delude yourselves. I'm only posting to correct your misinformation because I don't want future applicants to read what you say and actually believe it. DOs are at a huge disadvantage when applying to residency. Many programs won't even consider them and will look at highly qualified imgs over them.

To the other guy, you can't compare step 1 scores. Every md student takes step 1. The do students that take it are a ridiculously self selected population.

You would rather have them read what you say and actually believe it? I'm not saying I completely disagree with some of your opinions, but you are definitely one of the more sensationalistic posters on SDN.

 

[hallowmann]

Wait lol have you ever seen a bell curve before? You know how the lines go really low really quick? It is definitely not one third to one half. And being almost a whole standard deviation for both gpa and mcat is pretty bad. 3.55 vs 3.7? 27 vs 31? That's a huge difference.

Yeah, as whole populations they are different. No one said they weren't. We were talking about the top 1/3 to 1/2 of DOs and bottom 1/3 to 1/2 of MDs. As far as stats go, those 2 populations aren't really all that different.

Because it doesn't seem to be clear how means and SDs work and all, here is some graphical representation of it. Bear in mind that this is rough assuming a perfect standard curve, which it probably isn't. Its based on the data we actually have from 2015, since we only have means and SDs, and not all data points.

 

[Bea5T]

I often wonder if people, outside of medicine, would laugh at the **** we squirm about if they read it. It's almost hilarious how we're so obsessed with the idea of constantly differentiating ourselves from our colleagues that we forget we're all on the same side.

It's really just a few select people that spend way too much time on this site.

 

[songl4a]

A decade ago, DO students would most likely get MD acceptances with the trend of increasing year to year matriculation stats. Are MDs of the past generation not qualified?

 

[PL198]

A decade ago, DO students would most likely get MD acceptances with the trend of increasing year to year matriculation stats. Are MDs of the past generation not qualified?

thats not how it works at all. if that thought process is logical to you then theres no conversation to be had.

 

[SurfingDoctor]

A decade ago, DO students would most likely get MD acceptances with the trend of increasing year to year matriculation stats. Are MDs of the past generation not qualified?

Ha.

 

[Psai]

Yeah, as whole populations they are different. No one said they weren't. We were talking about the top 1/3 to 1/2 of DOs and bottom 1/3 to 1/2 of MDs. As far as stats go, those 2 populations aren't really all that different.

Because it doesn't seem to be clear how means and SDs work and all, here is some graphical representation of it. Bear in mind that this is rough assuming a perfect standard curve, which it probably isn't. Its based on the data we actually have from 2015, since we only have means and SDs, and not all data points.

View attachment 208787

You can't assume a normal distribution (not sure what you mean by standard curve). We actually have numbers of acceptances at each gpa and mcat score for md students published by the aamc. The two curves are not the same size as many more people apply md than do. The x axis is a joke. It should start at 0 to 4 and 3 to 45 for mcat. You can't have more than a 4 in gpa on amcas and most schools don't grade like that anyway. You don't even have a y axis.

Please take a basic statistics class. If your do school doesn't provide one, you can supplement your education from mit courseware lectures.

 

[IsWhat]

thats not how it works at all. if that thought process is logical to you then theres no conversation to be had.

There are plenty of factors at play, but I think there is certainly some truth to that statement, or at least a conversation to be had. I know my state MD school brought in a new dean who openly stated they would be looking for more well rounded individuals compared to the previous administration. The first class under the new dean saw a huge decrease in MCAT average. Research and clinical medicine couldn't be more different - so it has always been a curiosity of mine why schools accept students with a bunch of experience in the former and zero of the latter. The MD (and DO for that matter) is a clinical degree after all.

At least one dean is asking the same question.

 

[hallowmann]

You can't assume a normal distribution (not sure what you mean by standard curve). We actually have numbers of acceptances at each gpa and mcat score for md students published by the aamc. The two curves are not the same size as many more people apply md than do. You don't even have a y axis.

Please take a basic statistics class. If your do school doesn't provide one, you can supplement your education from mit courseware lectures.

I apologize for that. The first images I made were a standard distribution curve (i.e. standard curve) centered around 0 with positive and negative SDs, but two graphs were more easily displayed with the X axis as stats so I changed the image, but not the wording. I made it pretty clear that I was using just the mean and sd because we don't have all the data to accurately portray the distributions.

We only have stats for the MD side, not the DO side. Its not a perfect normal curve on the MD side, but we also have no reason to believe that it is on the DO side. If you remember, that's why I used a pretty broad range of 1/3-1/2, which you later criticized for being "huge". There's no way to know if the curves are similar or different, so going through the effort of plotting just the MD side without a similarly accurate DO side is about as useful as comparing two normal curves (so that's what I did).

The two curves aren't the same size, you're right, but that wouldn't change the % of overlap, it would only change the absolute number. Since we're talking about percents, its irrelevant, but its OK, keep trying to point out irrelevant issues unrelated to what we're talking about. It makes you sound all the more right after all .

The lack of a Y axis is because I just plotted it on a normal curve using the means and SDs to interpret visually. If it makes you feel better, the Y axis is percent, which would make them look relatively similar in heights.

I've taken years of stats, but to be honest, I tend to lose motivation when it feels like all you're after is more or less a pissing contest of semantics. I've said my peace, if people really want to analyze our two sets of comments, they can.

 

[Psai]

Skew matters. I believe both curves skew left. The curves would definitely have a different percentage of overlap with different absolute numbers. Say there was 1 do student. That would be 100% within the md curve. Years of stats? In any case it's all irrelevant. The point is that the overlap is smaller than you portray and it's obvious to the people that matter (program directors).

 

[Mr Roboto]

Skew matters. I believe both curves skew left. The curves would definitely have a different percentage of overlap with different absolute numbers. Say there was 1 do student. That would be 100% within the md curve. Years of stats? In any case it's all irrelevant. The point is that the overlap is smaller than you portray and it's obvious to the people that matter (program directors).

It's not as small of an overlap as you think, and it's definitely not as significant as you think. The difference between a 3.55 and 3.69 is one rough semester... maybe someone had trouble as a freshman, or a parent died, or whatever.

 

[brocephalic]

Skew matters. I believe both curves skew left. The curves would definitely have a different percentage of overlap with different absolute numbers. Say there was 1 do student. That would be 100% within the md curve. Years of stats? In any case it's all irrelevant. The point is that the overlap is smaller than you portray and it's obvious to the people that matter (program directors).

Lol, you hate DOs, dont you?

People that matter are hospitals and private groups, last I checked, I have already received offers for $600K plus and I am just over half of my training. How's that for a lowly DO?

Like I said before. We DO's are a slippery bunch. Vile. Despicable. Reprehensible. We are standing next to you while you work. Breathing your air. Copulating with your opposite sex. Reproducing like the rodents we are. We are using your computer terminals. Taking up your seats at the cafeteria. We are everywhere.

 

[jw3600]

1/3 vs 1/2 is a huge difference. You are talking about thousands of people, not that it matters because you're just pulling crap from your rear. Even with grade replacement, the top do schools barely come close to the bottom md schools in stats. It is not even close to the same population and the overlap is small. There are definitely superstars but they are few and far between. I don't know why you guys try to delude yourselves. I'm only posting to correct your misinformation because I don't want future applicants to read what you say and actually believe it. DOs are at a huge disadvantage when applying to residency. Many programs won't even consider them and will look at highly qualified imgs over them.

To the other guy, you can't compare step 1 scores. Every md student takes step 1. The do students that take it are a ridiculously self selected population.

TCOM released their data from this year and 84% of their class took the USMLE and averaged 229. I know dozens from my class and friends at other DO schools that scored over 240. There are literally hundreds of DO students that outscore HALF the US MD population now.

 

[TedStark]

TCOM released their data from this year and 84% of their class took the USMLE and averaged 229. I know dozens from my class and friends at other DO schools that scored over 240. There are literally hundreds of DO students that outscore HALF the US MD population now.

If only 84% of MD students could take the USMLE.

 

[PL198]

TCOM released their data from this year and 84% of their class took the USMLE and averaged 229. I know dozens from my class and friends at other DO schools that scored over 240. There are literally hundreds of DO students that outscore HALF the US MD population now.

thats 1 school and its a fairly easy assumption that the other 16 % taking it too would have brought down the average. hundreds isn't a significant number on the scale we're talking.... that's like a couple kids a school with how fast they are popping up

 

[IsWhat]

thats 1 school and its a fairly easy assumption that the other 16 % taking it too would have brought down the average. hundreds isn't a significant number on the scale we're talking.... that's like a couple kids a school with how fast they are popping up

Every student at my school will be required to take the USMLE starting with my year.

 

[IsWhat]

If only 84% of MD students could take the USMLE.

If only 100% of MD's had to take an extra set of liscensing exams.

 

[mehc012]

If only 100% of MD's had to take an extra set of listening exams.

OK, I know it's a typo, and I'm not trying to dig you for it or anything...but it's a pretty damn great one at that!
Subconscious speaking there?

 

[Stagg737]

Actually going to an md school does make you magically better because you didn't get stuck going to a do school. My program doesn't even interview below 240 and that's a great score. You just don't know the competition.

Where did you get the idea that AOA ortho programs interview candidates below a 240? Because some certainly don't, and they won't care if the applicant is an MD or DO, they'll toss the 239 in the reject file regardless of the letters.

 

[zero0]

I see the usual crew is busy making DO vs MD thread #867879255. I'll leave you to it, but just in case the original question was never answered...

Basically the ACGME grasped the AOA firmly by the gonads and the AOA buckled under its vice-like grip.

 

[AlteredScale]

The AOA knew it had no choice but to merge with the acgme. The fire back would be enormous if an announcement was made that graduating residents of AOA programs were not eligible to even apply for acgme fellowships (which is what would have happened if the AOA told the acgme to screw off).

The next logical step is to rid of the COCA accreditation council and, as they did at the gme level, create and osteopathic sub committee within the LCME.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[the argus]

The next logical step is to rid of the COCA accreditation council and, as they did at the gme level, create and osteopathic sub committee within the LCME.

Or just quit beating around the bush and get rid of the osteopathic degree altogether and call it what it is, allopathic medicine + OMM.

 

[deleted245139]

Or just quit beating around the bush and get rid of the osteopathic degree altogether and call it what it is, allopathic medicine + OMM.

I think a not insignificant number of more recent DO graduates agree.

 

[hallowmann]

Or just quit beating around the bush and get rid of the osteopathic degree altogether and call it what it is, allopathic medicine + OMM.

That would require a change in culture that the current brass, and dare I say even some of the current students/recent graduates aren't ready for. Gradual progression is the only way I see it going forward.

I see it going two ways, either as you say the degree is no more and some schools maintain education associated with OMT (for a time) or it'll go the way of DMD/DDS where the bodies will merge (i.e. the bigger one will take over) and there will just be two degrees under one umbrella with the same requirements. We'll see what happens. I still don't know if it'll happen soon enough for it to really affect any of us in the system right now.

 

[zero0]

I think a not insignificant number of more recent DO graduates agree.

Given how annoyed recent DO grads are with COCA rapidly approving schools, the NBOME being incapable of putting together a decent exam year after year, and the AOA being okay with it all, I'd say most DO students at this point agree.

 

[Brorthopedic]

I think a not insignificant number of more recent DO graduates agree.

Given how annoyed recent DO grads are with COCA rapidly approving schools, the NBOME being incapable of putting together a decent exam year after year, and the AOA being okay with it all, I'd say most DO students at this point agree.

My DO colleagues poke more fun at OMM than do my MD colleagues. Hell, my MD colleagues constantly ask me to crack their neck/back and seem to take it way more seriously...

 

[PL198]

My DO colleagues poke more fun at OMM than do my MD colleagues. Hell, my MD colleagues constantly ask me to crack their neck/back and seem to take it way more seriously...

ya I'd rather keep my spine intact and not some voodoo stuff that may or may not work. some stuff like myofascial release I can get down with, but "cracking" something is total BS in my eyes

 

[Mjolner]

ya I'd rather keep my spine intact and not some voodoo stuff that may or may not work. some stuff like myofascial release I can get down with, but "cracking" something is total BS in my eyes

How do you feel about HVLA?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Brorthopedic]

ya I'd rather keep my spine intact and not some voodoo stuff that may or may not work. some stuff like myofascial release I can get down with, but "cracking" something is total BS in my eyes

It's not that serious broski, at least I and most DO students I've met don't look at it that way. It's not like I'm sitting here diagnosing myself before I'm about to crack my knuckles or neck and claiming a lifetime cure.

There's a new generation of DO's that will soon replace the old. And from what I've seen, these DO's only remember a small handful of techniques (myofascial/HVLA) that won't even be used on anyone but the occasional friend/family member. Could be a good or bad a thing, depending on one's perspective.

 

[Goro]

So true this. The days of the cult of Still are ending. Medicine shouldn't be a belief system.

It's not that serious broski, at least I and most DO students I've met don't look at it that way. It's not like I'm sitting here diagnosing myself before I'm about to crack my knuckles or neck and claiming a lifetime cure.

There's a new generation of DO's that will soon replace the old. And from what I've seen, these DO's only remember a small handful of techniques (myofascial/HVLA) that won't even be used on anyone but the occasional friend/family member. Could be a good or bad a thing, depending on one's perspective.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

Our school released a memo that states there MAY be a pull out and urges us to tell our deans to hopefully get the AOA to pull out from the merger since many of the program's haven't even applied for pre accreditation.

Half of them didn't even make it past that stage.

Good thing I knew I would be good in EM, IM, or Gas before going down this path.

If you wanna do anything surgery... You are pretty much ****ed

 

[username456789]

Our school released a memo that states there MAY be a pull out and urges us to tell our deans to hopefully get the AOA to pull out from the merger since many of the program's haven't even applied for pre accreditation.

Half of them didn't even make it past that stage.

Good thing I knew I would be good in EM, IM, or Gas before going down this path.

If you wanna do anything surgery... You are pretty much ****ed

It sounds like you go to a terrible school.

 

[IsWhat]

So true this. The days of the cult of Still are ending. Medicine shouldn't be a belief system.

Don't be so sure - my school just released the new Dr. Gevitz paper calling for a pull-out from the merger.

 

[PL198]

Don't be so sure - my school just released the new Dr. Gevitz paper calling for a pull-out from the merger.

dig your own graves. feel free

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

It sounds like you go to a terrible school.

What can I say. I should have worked harder to go for that MD but it is what it is.

 

[IsWhat]

dig your own graves. feel free

The paper points to the fact that a bunch of AOA residencies not passing accreditation is cause for DOs to pull out. To me this just highlights the reasons why the ACGME and LCME need to take over .

 

[FourniersGreenGang]

The paper points to the fact that a bunch of AOA residencies not passing accreditation is cause for DOs to pull out. To me this just highlights the reasons why the ACGME and LCME need to take over .

Yeah I actually got the same feeling while reading it. On one hand I felt bad that DO students are ultimately paying the price, but the fact that the AOA only residencies can't pass muster reflects that they are indeed inferior and should not continue to produce licensed physicians. That being said, going into the unified match, DO and MD students should be equally considered for each specialty and program, given that they have identical apps other than the degree. Obviously this is not going to be the case, but in a perfect world, DO PDs should give equal consideration to MD applicants, and MD PDs should give equal consideration to DO applicants. Ultimately a PD should want the best American trained Dr. to be in his or her program.

 

[Psai]

Yeah I actually got the same feeling while reading it. On one hand I felt bad that DO students are ultimately paying the price, but the fact that the AOA only residencies can't pass muster reflects that they are indeed inferior and should not continue to produce licensed physicians. That being said, going into the unified match, DO and MD students should be equally considered for each specialty and program, given that they have identical apps other than the degree. Obviously this is not going to be the case, but in a perfect world, DO PDs should give equal consideration to MD applicants, and MD PDs should give equal consideration to DO applicants. Ultimately a PD should want the best American trained Dr. to be in his or her program.

Lol

 

[Goro]

Just for clarification: ACGME regulates post-graduate medical training. LCME is for medical schools.

Perhaps @aProgDirector can shed some light on the question of whether problematic residency programs are automatically given a death sentence of loss of accreditation. Even med schools get warning shots across the bow, and get placed upon probation.

The paper points to the fact that a bunch of AOA residencies not passing accreditation is cause for DOs to pull out. To me this just highlights the reasons why the ACGME and LCME need to take over .

 

[IsWhat]

On second read through it looks like 30 of 38 AOA surgical residencies did not pass initial ACGME accreditation... Jesus.

 

[PL198]

Yeah I actually got the same feeling while reading it. On one hand I felt bad that DO students are ultimately paying the price, but the fact that the AOA only residencies can't pass muster reflects that they are indeed inferior and should not continue to produce licensed physicians. That being said, going into the unified match, DO and MD students should be equally considered for each specialty and program, given that they have identical apps other than the degree. Obviously this is not going to be the case, but in a perfect world, DO PDs should give equal consideration to MD applicants, and MD PDs should give equal consideration to DO applicants. Ultimately a PD should want the best American trained Dr. to be in his or her program.

so you're acknowledging that the DO residency programs are crap, but you expect people to think the students are equal to MD students? Makes no sense.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

On second read through it looks like 30 of 38 AOA surgical residencies did not pass initial ACGME accreditation... Jesus.

Stuff like this makes me seriously consider an SMP...

 

[IsWhat]

Stuff like this makes me seriously consider an SMP...

Yeah I don't know how the AOA could ever think about backing out now with this information coming to light. Pulling out now would solidify AOA trained physicians as second rate - there is no way around that.

 

[235009]

Our school released a memo that states there MAY be a pull out and urges us to tell our deans to hopefully get the AOA to pull out from the merger since many of the program's haven't even applied for pre accreditation.

Half of them didn't even make it past that stage.

Good thing I knew I would be good in EM, IM, or Gas before going down this path.

If you wanna do anything surgery... You are pretty much ****ed

If the AOA pulls out of the "merger" then those seeking IM subspecialties will be the biggest lossers. And now it sounds like if they don't pull out surgery applicants will be the losers. Basically rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic at this point.

Just for clarification: ACGME regulates post-graduate medical training. LCME is for medical schools.

Perhaps @aProgDirector can shed some light on the question of whether problematic residency programs are automatically given a death sentence of loss of accreditation. Even med schools get warning across the bow, and get placed upon probation.

Residency programs can be placed on probation too. However I doubt they would extend that to programs that never got initially accredited.



Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app