What would you do? (Difficult case)

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whopper said:
36 year old guy presents to our hospital for the first time. Has delusions of being a billionaire, having record labels, owning buildings etc. The guy's homeless. Also had a thrombosis and required Warfarin and will need INR checks at least for several months.

Came to the hospital dehydrated, confused (likely due to the dehydration) and with the thrombosis that was treated. We do not know why he was dehydrated. He doesn't remember. I speculate it was the winter months that were very cold and he couldn't find a source of water.

Tried on 3 antipsychotics at high dosages, no benefit. He has no signs or sx of psychosis other than the delusions. ADLs are fine. You can't tell he even has psychosis unless you bring up the delusions. He doesn't want to take meds but they were court-ordered.

So it's possible he has Delusional Disorder, a disorder that doesn't respond well if at all to meds.

Pimozide was tried with no real benefit. It was tried because there is some data with it and delusional disorder. Guy's been in the hospital 40 days. Way too long IMHO and part of it is because the way the inpatient schedule has been, inpatient attendings have rotated on it and left it for the next guy.

So here's the problem. Guy still is psychotic but there's not direct danger from his delusions. Fine. But he cannot pay for his Warfarin treatment and refuses govt assistance because he insists he is a billionaire. Already tried the rational arguments (if you were really a billionaire the gov would either deny you the stuff you don't qualify for, or you would get the stuff anyone even with money could get).

Should this guy be discharged --> and then not be able to afford his Warfarin treatment? He understands and has capacity that needs that treatment.

Or kept in the hospital-possibly indefinitely given that delusional disorder possibly could not be treated with meds?

If kept in, would you up the ante and try Clozapine or ECT given that there's hardly any data showing they work for delusional disorder? What would you do?

And everything you pretty much think of such as labs to see if it was something that could be isolated, collateral (there is none) have turned up nothing of substance.

Keep and treat? Or discharge?
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Why would they put him on neuroleptics? Neuroleptics make people slow, anxious, and depressed which is why they do not treat delusional disorder. They are used to make people docile, indifferent, and compliant. All they do is block dopamine and seratonin - they don't rewire the brain.

He seems highly invested in his delusions. That is why he is holding onto them so tight. Deep down, he knows he is not a billionaire with record labels. He is using the delusions to cope with other things that neuroleptics will probably make worse.

I never understood why psych wards always go straight to neuroleptics for everyone. Those drugs are very powerful and hurt people very bad. Most the people coming into a psych ward are already under enough mental distress without neuroleptics. I would argue that most people in psych wards are not mentally ill but instead mentally distressed with no actual illness. And when they are ill, neuroleptics are still not a good treatment.

The dopamine hypothesis has never had proof with regards to psychosis. Let alone just delusions. Giving the guy akithisia, anxiety, and extreme depression is not going to help him.

If all your ward will do is torment him with neuroleptics and put him in group, you might as well discharge him. Even if he stops claiming what he claims to get out, he will go right back to using those delusions to cope when he leaves.
 
wolfvgang22 said:
Religious beliefs like voodoo or Jehovah Witness, etc are not considered delusions at all so long as they pretty much conform with others with like beliefs. It is pretty arbitrary and based on the culture the patient belongs to.
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That is why stuff gets so bad sometimes. Most DXs are made based on subjective opinion instead of something objectively verifiable.

I remember this one guy who believed he was being talked to by God every time someone talked to him. He was only like that for one night. He was given sleep meds, and woke up completely normal. Somehow, he was tricked. It is possible for someone to be tricked and believe something that would be considered delusional or psychotic. I don't think he actually had a neurological disease. He was completely normal the next morning and for the rest of the time he was observed. Strangely, they still forced him to take neuroleptics when he was not displaying any psychosis. They took a guy with mental distress that lead to a false belief and tortured him as far as I can see.

I have seen that happen alot. People come into the hospital in distress and often believing something that is not in agreement with consensus reality. They are given a benzo for sleep and wake up normal.
 
JesusSaves said:
That is why stuff gets so bad sometimes. Most DXs are made based on subjective opinion instead of something objectively verifiable.

I remember this one guy who believed he was being talked to by God every time someone talked to him. He was only like that for one night. He was given sleep meds, and woke up completely normal. Somehow, he was tricked. It is possible for someone to be tricked and believe something that would be considered delusional or psychotic. I don't think he actually had a neurological disease. He was completely normal the next morning and for the rest of the time he was observed. Strangely, they still forced him to take neuroleptics when he was not displaying any psychosis. They took a guy with mental distress that lead to a false belief and tortured him as far as I can see.

I have seen that happen alot. People come into the hospital in distress and often believing something that is not in agreement with consensus reality. They are given a benzo for sleep and wake up normal.
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Please link to the case study of the situation you describe with this gentleman. What is your experience in Psychiatry to make the judgement that he was 'tricked' into his delusions/psychosis. Did you examine this patient yourself? If you are a Psychiatrist I would assume you're aware that the positive symptoms of Psychosis Spectrum Disorders (not an official term) do not tend to be present 24 hours a day, seven days a week, at a continuous rate.
 
wolfvgang22 said:
Religious beliefs like voodoo or Jehovah Witness, etc are not considered delusions at all so long as they pretty much conform with others with like beliefs. It is pretty arbitrary and based on the culture the patient belongs to.
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That is why stuff gets so bad sometimes. Most DXs are made based on subjective opinion instead of something objectively verifiable.

I remember this one guy who believed he was being talked to by God every time someone talked to him. He was only like that for one night. He was given sleep meds, and woke up completely normal. Somehow, he was tricked. It is possible for someone to be tricked and believe something that would be considered delusional or psychotic. I don't think he actually had a neurological disease. He was completely normal the next morning and for the rest of the time he was observed. Strangely, they still forced him to take neuroleptics when he was not displaying any psychosis. They took a guy with mental distress and tortured him as far as I can see.

I have seen that happen alot. People come into the hospital in distress and often believing something that is not in agreement with consensus reality. They are given a benzo for sleep and wake up normal.
Ceke2002 said:
Please link to the case study of the situation you describe with this gentleman. What is your experience in Psychiatry to make the judgement that he was 'tricked' into his delusions/psychosis. Did you examine this patient yourself? If you are a Psychiatrist I would assume you're aware that the positive symptoms of Psychosis Spectrum Disorders (not an official term) do not tend to be present 24 hours a day, seven days a week, at a continuous rate.
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He was normal and completely stable for the rest of his 10 day stay. That kind of situation happens a lot. Anyone working in a psych hospital will see people come in delusional, require sleep meds (sometimes emergency sometimes not), and wake up normal while remaining normal for the rest of their stay. Whether or not they are displaying symptoms of psychosis becomes irrelevant to the treating psychiatrist as far as meds go. They will give them neuroleptics regardless. It happens very often at every psych hospital. That is a very bad thing.

If someone does not display symptoms of psychosis throughout a 10 day stay except the night they come in, they should not be taking neuroleptics.

This was not a neurological issue. This was a belief issue. There is a problem when believing something false becomes justification for a DX of a brain disorder in and of itself. Even worse when it is treated with neuroleptics. I have seen A LOT of people on neuroleptics and it is not a pretty sight. They are very harmful. They should be a last resort, but for some reason they are given right away.

I am someone who does not even buy the dopamine hypothesis. In the case of neurological issues, the issue is in how the brain is wired not how much dopamine is hitting receptors. Neuroleptics are simply used to make the patient docile, indifferent, and compliant. The dopamine hypothesis is the excuse to do that.

Btw, people with decades of experience in psychiatry put CHILDREN on neuroleptics for temper tantrums in foster care. They get DXd bipolar every day and put on drugs that will rob them of their childhood. The less experience, the better. They even put kids with autism on them and old people with dementia. This is standard within the profession.
 
JesusSaves said:
He was normal and completely stable for the rest of his 10 day stay. That kind of situation happens a lot. Anyone working in a psych hospital will see people come in delusional, require sleep meds (sometimes emergency sometimes not), and wake up normal while remaining normal for the rest of their stay. Whether or not they are displaying symptoms of psychosis becomes irrelevant to the treating psychiatrist as far as meds go. They will give them neuroleptics regardless. It happens very often at every psych hospital. That is a very bad thing.

If someone does not display symptoms of psychosis throughout a 10 day stay except the night they come in, they should not be taking neuroleptics.

This was not a neurological issue. This was a belief issue. There is a problem when believing something false becomes justification for a DX of a brain disorder in and of itself. Even worse when it is treated with neuroleptics. I have seen A LOT of people on neuroleptics and it is not a pretty sight. They are very harmful. They should be a last resort, but for some reason they are given right away.

I am someone who does not even buy the dopamine hypothesis. In the case of neurological issues, the issue is in how the brain is wired not how much dopamine is hitting receptors. Neuroleptics are simply used to make the patient docile, indifferent, and compliant. The dopamine hypothesis is the excuse to do that.

Btw, people with decades of experience in psychiatry put CHILDREN on neuroleptics for temper tantrums in foster care. They get DXd bipolar every day and put on drugs that will rob them of their childhood. The less experience, the better. They even put kids with autism on them and old people with dementia. This is standard within the profession.
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Where is your peer reviewed evidence to support the claims you are making. If you didn't examine the patient yourself, how do you know it was a belief issue as opposed to a neurological one, how were you able to make the determination that the patient was not displaying symptoms of psychosis in a 10 day period.
 
Ceke2002 said:
Where is your peer reviewed evidence to support the claims you are making. If you didn't examine the patient yourself, how do you know it was a belief issue as opposed to a neurological one, how were you able to make the determination that the patient was not displaying symptoms of psychosis in a 10 day period.
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I don't need peer reviewed evidence of something everyone working in a psych hospital sees every week. Cases like his are very common. Every patient in a psych hospital is monitored 24/7. If someone is displaying symptoms of psychosis, everyone knows and it gets reported to the treating psychiatrist. Staff interacts with patients all day and night.

The treating psychiatrist called it a neurological issue even though he knew that he hadn't been psychotic during his entire stay. Anyone who ever displays psychosis is said to have a neurological issue. Even if the psychosis goes away and stays away, the dx sticks because the theory is that they have a permanent neurological disorder. Of course, we have no way to prove that and test for it.

But what is interesting is that the treating psychiatrist did in fact know that the patient didn't display symptoms of psychosis during the 10 days. And just like everyone else like this patient (and there are A lOT of them), he was still told he needs neuroleptics for the rest of his life. A condition of his release was that he take neuroleptics. Same thing as just about everyone who goes through the system.

I saw tons of people with that situation, but I used him because of the extremity of his false belief. I have seen a kid who drank too much cough syrup get dxd and put on neuroleptics even though he never displayed psychosis during his stay (not even the day he came in on a petition). Many people who are observed being stable for extended periods of time are still court-ordered to take neuroleptics if non-compliance can be linked to 2 hospitalizations. Even if they commit no crimes and are not dangerous.
 
JesusSaves said:
I don't need peer reviewed evidence of something everyone working in a psych hospital sees every week. Cases like his are very common. Every patient in a psych hospital is monitored 24/7. If someone is displaying symptoms of psychosis, everyone knows and it gets reported to the treating psychiatrist. Staff interacts with patients all day and night.

The treating psychiatrist called it a neurological issue even though he knew that he hadn't been psychotic during his entire stay. Anyone who ever displays psychosis is said to have a neurological issue. Even if the psychosis goes away and stays away, the dx sticks because the theory is that they have a permanent neurological disorder. Of course, we have no way to prove that and test for it.

But what is interesting is that the treating psychiatrist did in fact know that the patient didn't display symptoms of psychosis during the 10 days. And just like everyone else like this patient (and there are A lOT of them), he was still told he needs neuroleptics for the rest of his life. A condition of his release was that he take neuroleptics. Same thing as just about everyone who goes through the system.

I saw tons of people with that situation, but I used him because of the extremity of his false belief. I have seen a kid who drank too much cough syrup get dxd and put on neuroleptics even though he never displayed psychosis during his stay (not even the day he came in on a petition). Many people who are observed being stable for extended periods of time are still court-ordered to take neuroleptics if non-compliance can be linked to 2 hospitalizations. Even if they commit no crimes and are not dangerous.
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So in other words...

2lsgrw2.jpg
 
The truth is that we have no strong national policy like most other modern countries do, which I think is a function both with the direction federalism has taken along with a largely dysfunctional federal government. States are not as competent as modern countries that have populations of their size or smaller. Look at Massachusetts and the Judge Rotenberg Center. An FDA panel has recommended banning skin electric shock devices, yet the FDA has not acted on this in over a year. Massachusetts has kept the program in place based on the decision of a judge for which the center is now named and strong support in its legislature from a relative of a client of the center. All in all the center receives $220,000 per patient per year from the government, and the center has put out no peer-reviewed research after operating since the early 1970s. Our very own federal government's agency (FDA) wants to stop their practices but is too bureaucratic to actually follow through own their own intentions.

Other countries do have more cohesive policies. If you look at Norway for example, they have very specific guidelines on when restraint can be used for self-inujurious behaviors. They have an absolute ban on any aversive treatment for self-injurious behavior, and restraint can only be used to stop self-injurious behavior, not in a way that is intended to reduce its frequency, as doing so could be considered aversive.

Whether you agree with it or not, it's a policy. It's not the wild west.

EDIT: To be clear, I am responding to the UN video above. I am not exactly following/understanding the rest of the conversation.
 
@Ceke

Robert Whitaker- " Mad in America"

Also, if there is no compelling evidence of long-term usefulness of antipsychotics, with their side-effects well known, the principle of medicine being " first do no harm", i would think twice before prescribing them to a patient.
 
The UN commission, and I haven't read all of it, was written from an unexperienced position.

But in the spirit of education, JesusSaves-a problem here is there are very very good reasons why things on a psych unit are done the way they are done. If you're in a medschool you'll learn those things.

An analogy is Patch Adams. He complains about he can't go into the hospital his first year of medschool. There are very good reasons as to why. E.g. he didn't get any hospital training, he didn't take any basic courses yet, he might not have yet had his vaccines updated....

But the movie never portrayed that and gives the layman a misinformed view.
 
whopper said:
The UN commission, and I haven't read all of it, was written from an unexperienced position.

But in the spirit of education, JesusSaves-a problem here is there are very very good reasons why things on a psych unit are done the way they are done. If you're in a medschool you'll learn those things.

An analogy is Patch Adams. He complains about he can't go into the hospital his first year of medschool. There are very good reasons as to why. E.g. he didn't get any hospital training, he didn't take any basic courses yet, he might not have yet had his vaccines updated....

But the movie never portrayed that and gives the layman a misinformed view.
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Why are neuroleptics forced on people with delusional disorder if they do not stop the delusions?

They are also forced on people with dementia, and on children with the ever-subjective diagnoses of bi-polar.

It is a known fact that neuroleptics are very harmful and cause the person taking them (or injected with them) to develop akithisia and severe depression. The only rest from that torment they get is when they take benzos. That is the most likely outcome and in reality is the main effect, not side effect, of neuroleptics. In psych wards, it is common for every last person to be medicated with neuroleptics. Even when they do not stop the symptoms. Even if they do stop the symptoms in some cases, is the trade off really worth it? Well, if you are looking to maintain absolute control it is to you. But not to the patient.

I'm not sure how this guy didn't end up with a court order. In most states, 2 hospitalizations linked to non-compliance (they were non-compliant when hospitalized) will result in a court order the second the person refuses neuroleptics. He must have been in a state with higher standards.
 
kaserm said:
@Ceke

Robert Whitaker- " Mad in America"

Also, if there is no compelling evidence of long-term usefulness of antipsychotics, with their side-effects well known, the principle of medicine being " first do no harm", i would think twice before prescribing them to a patient.
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Thanks to the pharmaceutical companies, there are studies that promote the long term usefulness. I know the study you are referring to, and it is the more reliable one. Neuroleptics do not reduce hospital readmission rates in the long term. Neither does forced outpatient. Oh, excuse me, "assisted outpatient treatment."

"First do no harm" is largely ignored when dealing with neuroleptics. They are VERY harmful drugs, and handed out like candy.
 
wolfvgang22 said:
Are you a scientologist? You write like one, and use their sources and arguments.
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I didn't use any scientology sources. I did not use a scientologist's argument. My name should make it obvious I am not a scientologist.

The problem with the things I am saying is that they are true. Calling it scientology doesn't change that.
 
JesusSaves said:
The problem with the things I am saying is that they are true.
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Did you objectively test all of these patients' brains? Define true.

JesusSaves - I understand that you have a difference of opinion, but you are arguing your opinion with psychiatry residents and physicians. You will not be changing anyone's practice of psychiatry here without large blinded studies supporting your evidence. Otherwise asserting your opinion against accepted medical knowledge will likely result in forum complaints and seen as you trolling.

A more productive manner may be starting a thread about a specific article on neuroleptics and discussing the findings objectively. If everyone can do so politely, it may be a good educational exercise. This thread is not the place.
 
JesusSaves, you are in fact repeating typical scientologist arguments, whether you are aware of it or not. Your original post, before you edited it, mentions Thomas Szasz, who I knew. Wonderfully kind man. However, he worked with the Citizens Commission on Human Rights, a scientologist group designed to attack psychiatry. The U.N. video testimony you linked above was heavily promoted by the Church of Scientology. I'll let others decide how much weight they want to give these arguments. I for one, give them little weight. Feel free to take it personally if you like.
 
wolfvgang22 said:
JesusSaves, you are in fact repeating typical scientologist arguments, whether you are aware of it or not. Your original post, before you edited it, mentions Thomas Szasz, who I knew. Wonderfully kind man. However, he worked with the Citizens Commission on Human Rights, a scientologist group designed to attack psychiatry. The U.N. video testimony you linked above was heavily promoted by the Church of Scientology. I'll let others decide how much weight they want to give these arguments. I for one, give them little weight. Feel free to take it personally if you like.
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CCHR is not a scientologist group. It is funded by scientology. There is a difference. However, the things I have been saying do not have a foundation in scientology nor CCHR. I did not edit anything out of a post mentioning someone names Thomas Szasz as far as I know. Do you mean the page to the book I posted? That got removed. It didn't mention scientology, though.

Anyways, the common deflection for arguments against neuroleptics is to discredit the arguments based on the fact that scientologists make them. Pharmaceutical companies must love scientology.

I am going to make a thread about neuroleptics soon. Maybe you can join in.
 
TexasPhysician said:
Did you objectively test all of these patients' brains? Define true.

JesusSaves - I understand that you have a difference of opinion, but you are arguing your opinion with psychiatry residents and physicians. You will not be changing anyone's practice of psychiatry here without large blinded studies supporting your evidence. Otherwise asserting your opinion against accepted medical knowledge will likely result in forum complaints and seen as you trolling.

A more productive manner may be starting a thread about a specific article on neuroleptics and discussing the findings objectively. If everyone can do so politely, it may be a good educational exercise. This thread is not the place.
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I was posting in reference to how the man with delusional disorder was given neuroleptics even though neuroleptics are known to be ineffective in treating it. I will start another thread soon.

If I get just one person to reconsider giving someone neuroleptics, or even worse forcing them, especially a child or an elderly person - every letter I typed was worth it. Akithisia and chemically induced extreme depression are serious matters, along with the rest of the effects and side effects. Much of the problem, in fact, is that it is accepted medical knowledge that the benefits outweigh the risks. Pharma is responsible for that, not objective logic and science
 
JesusSaves said:
CCHR is not a scientologist group. It is funded by scientology. There is a difference. However, the things I have been saying do not have a foundation in scientology nor CCHR. I did not edit anything out of a post mentioning someone names Thomas Szasz as far as I know. Do you mean the page to the book I posted? That got removed. It didn't mention scientology, though.

Anyways, the common deflection for arguments against neuroleptics is to discredit the arguments based on the fact that scientologists make them. Pharmaceutical companies must love scientology.

I am going to make a thread about neuroleptics soon. Maybe you can join in.
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Yep, and the NRA is not a conservative group, it's just funded by conservatives. The ACLU is not a liberal group, it's just funded by liberals. 🤣
Anyway, I apologize for my last sentence above about taking it personally. Dr. Szasz would have never said anything like that, and neither should I.
 
wolfvgang22 said:
Yep, and the NRA is not a conservative group, it's just funded by conservatives. The ACLU is not a liberal group, it's just funded by liberals. 🤣
Anyway, I apologize for my last sentence above about taking it personally. Dr. Szasz would have never said anything like that, and neither should I.
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I can't stand the "conservative" mentality but I do like a lot of what the NRA does. I can't stand the "liberal" mentality either, but I do like a lot of what the ACLU does.
 
There is a difference between being anti-psychiatry and being anti-torture. Forced/coerced neuroleptics = torture. Neuroleptics are torture, but if someone wants to torture themselves that is their business.

Main effects are listed as side effects. The main effects of blocking dopamine are severe restlessness, akithisia, and severe depression. If someone is deluded and thinks they are a billionaire, making them severely depressed and restless will not solve their problem. Stopping delusions is not a main effect of neuroleptics. Anyone who has spent time in a psych ward knows that neuroleptics rarely even SEEM to stop delusions.

You seem to not care that young children and elderly people are victims of neuroleptics. They are in torment this very second. If you don't care about them, you sure won't care about anyone else.

I'm not anti-psych though. I think amphetamines, for example, are good for many people. Amphetamines don't torture people - they IMPROVE quality of life. People with severe anxiety are rightfully given benzos. It gives them relief, the opposite of what neuroleptics do. Wellbutrin brings many people relief from depression, which is tough to deal with.

Psychiatry should only be used to bring people relief.

Throughout all of history the mentally ill have been condemned and tormented for their delusions. Why stop now right? Let's make a bingo card and laugh.

In reality, I am pro-psychiatry. I want to see psychiatrists succeed if their genuine aim is to HELP people. Neuroleptics do far more harm than good. Do no harm should be taken more seriously.

I'm making a thread tomorrow. You should take a look at it.
 
Everyone - read this -

I think we should do away with Cardiology. Beta-blockers do more harm then good. I once saw a guy who had chest pain, they fixed him up with a needle thoracostomy. Beta-blockers and chest pain is therefore a lie. Do you know what beta-blockers DO to people? It can DESTROY their lives with debilitating DEPRESSION. It can RUIN their ability to breathe my making their ASTHMA WORSE. What kind of barbaric medical DOCTORS do this to people? I'm pro-medicine, in case you were wondering, but I can't support treating someone post-MI with something like a beta-blocker. It like, totally ruins peoples lives.

Don't even get me started on chest compressions and what they can do to somebody's ribs. Whatever happened to DO NO HARM?

:sarcasm:
 
JesusSaves said:
There is a difference between being anti-psychiatry and being anti-torture. Forced/coerced neuroleptics = torture. Neuroleptics are torture, but if someone wants to torture themselves that is their business.

Main effects are listed as side effects. The main effects of blocking dopamine are severe restlessness, akithisia, and severe depression. If someone is deluded and thinks they are a billionaire, making them severely depressed and restless will not solve their problem. Stopping delusions is not a main effect of neuroleptics. Anyone who has spent time in a psych ward knows that neuroleptics rarely even SEEM to stop delusions.

You seem to not care that young children and elderly people are victims of neuroleptics. They are in torment this very second. If you don't care about them, you sure won't care about anyone else.

I'm not anti-psych though. I think amphetamines, for example, are good for many people. Amphetamines don't torture people - they IMPROVE quality of life. People with severe anxiety are rightfully given benzos. It gives them relief, the opposite of what neuroleptics do. Wellbutrin brings many people relief from depression, which is tough to deal with.

Psychiatry should only be used to bring people relief.

Throughout all of history the mentally ill have been condemned and tormented for their delusions. Why stop now right? Let's make a bingo card and laugh.

In reality, I am pro-psychiatry. I want to see psychiatrists succeed if their genuine aim is to HELP people. Neuroleptics do far more harm than good. Do no harm should be taken more seriously.

I'm making a thread tomorrow. You should take a look at it.
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Right, so you're Pro Psychiatry so long as they're prescribing you the good **** (read 'stuff I can get high on), gotcha.

And FYI I'm not a Psychiatrist, I'm a mental health patient who has taken Anti-Psychotic medication in the past (without coercion or forced drugging) and who will take it again if it becomes neccessary - MY CHOICE. Yes the medication has side effects, ALL medications do, even Amphetamines and Benzos (Amphetamines can cause dangerous cardiac side effects and Benzo withdrawal can kill you, where's your wrath over those pills?) but here's a nifty idea, dosages can be adjusted, medications can be changed, you can actually work with a Psychiatrist to increase benefits over side effect profiles (I know, who woulda thunk it). And no, being on Anti-Psychotics did not make me docile and compliant, it made me more outgoing, stable, and happy. Same as anti-psychotics gave me back my father after three years of him being trapped in a dementia induced psychosis to the point that I wasn't able to even have a simple conversation with him - if it had been up to me those meds would have been prescribed a lot sooner, he wasn't 'tortured' by them, he was momentarily saved from the hell of his own mind. You say I don't care about children or the elderly being tortured? Do you even know what torture looks like? Pro Tip, it doesn't look like side effects of medication. By the way Google "eye enucleation by a schizophrenic patient" and tell me that is a preferable outcome to having the person on Anti Psychotics.
 
That was a terrible analogy. Beta blockers do not cause what neuroleptics cause as a main effect. They literally seize up the brain by blocking dopamine and seratonin. Their lack of effectiveness aside (and I will have the studies in the thread), I have seen tons and tons of people who say they would rather die than stay on neuroleptics. It is torture, and they put KIDS on that stuff.

Why compare to beta blockers? Are you suggesting that they are comparable in how they affect people adversely? They are not even close. Neuroleptics hurt people more than any other psych drug. The bad part is that it is the MAIN EFFECT, not side effect. They are designed to do harm.

Do you know why the delusional guy is taking neuroleptics? Not because they will stop his delusions. To make him docile. How? By locking up his brain. That is harm.
 
Ceke2002 said:
Right, so you're Pro Psychiatry so long as they're prescribing you the good **** (read 'stuff I can get high on), gotcha.
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Yes, the best psychiatric drugs are the ones that affect the person in a pleasurable way. That doesn't mean I support drug abuse. Many pleasurable meds happen to be abused by some. However, wellbutrin is not a drug people take to "get high," and I did mention wellbutrin. The whole point of psychiatry is to bring people RELIEF (read make them feel good).

I stopped reading after that part. How can you expect anyone to take you seriously with an opening statement like that?

edit: ok I read it. Yes, fast acting neuroleptics can stop psychotic episodes in some cases. They can be useful on an as-needed basis. However, putting an elderly person on them long-term is torturing them in their last years. If you had ever been given, for instance, an invega sustenna shot - you would have known why so many people call it torture.

There are other ways to stop psychotic episodes, but neuroleptics work sometimes.

I have a question. Did the doctor try a benzo before the neuroleptic?

Most schizophrenics are not dangerous to themselves or others. Torturing them, especially against their will, is terrible. You don't seem to understand how bad akithisia, SEVERE chemically induced depression, and SEVERE chemically induced restlessness really are. Tons of people have committed suicide from this. Be very careful to learn to find peace if you ever find yourself dealing with a spirit of confusion again. If you meet certain criteria later down the road, you will find out the hard way. Don't find out the hard way.

I'm not going to respond again in this thread, but if you respond I will read it.
 
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JesusSaves said:
I don't need peer reviewed evidence
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I stopped reading after that part. How can you expect anyone to take you seriously with an opening statement like that?

Oh by the way I just love how you're rallying for patient's rights with Psychiatry, but you turn around and completely dismiss an actual Psych patient and their experiences. I guess you only care to the degree that you can use us to further your own agenda, I mean it's not like we're real people with real experiences and real feelings or anything, feel free to make us dance like puppets to whatever tune *you* decide to play. 🙄
 
? I never said that. I think you edited one of my sentences. Anyways, I edited in a response because it caught my eye that you were talking about something useful. I'm not responding anymore in this thread unless we are talking about the delusional guy, so if you want to respond go ahead but I won't respond back. I am making a thread tomorrow that you might be interested in.

Btw, I am so serious, be careful. Depending on your state, you could be one hospitalization away from forced neuroleptics. You do NOT want to find out what it is like. It will be the worst thing you have ever experienced. You seem to have been on a neuroleptic for a small window of time.
 
Am I wrong or does one of these anti-psychiatry guys shows up here with a new account about every few months, with the same old arguments?
Anyway, I've had time to follow this thread this evening after (brace yourselves, it's shocking, I know) not putting a man with acute Adjustment Disorder on any psychiatric medication at all! I mean, I thought about destroying his life with Stelazine for a while, but JesusSaves changed my mind. Instead I plan to torture my patient with Brief Supportive Therapy bi-monthly.
 
wolfvgang22 said:
Am I wrong or does one of these anti-psychiatry guys shows up here with a new account about every few months, with the same old arguments?
Anyway, I've had time to follow this thread this evening after (brace yourselves, it's shocking, I know) not putting a man with acute Adjustment Disorder on any psychiatric medication at all! I mean, I thought about destroying his life with Stelazine for a while, but JesusSaves changed my mind. Instead I plan to torture my patient with Brief Supportive Therapy bi-monthly.
Click to expand...

Go hard, or go home!
2uy3aip.jpg
 
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