What's more important, GPA or DAT?

[Three-Oh]

---

Members do not see this ad.

I think it's the GPA. And if the GPA is not so HOT, then I think the DAT is a Second Chance. What do you all think? Do you agree with me?

 

[aznsfla]

.

 

[RaiderNation]

GPA is probably more important, but they go hand in hand. If you have a crappy DAT and a high GPA your chance of acceptance drops. If you have a crappy GPA and a good DAT you have a slight chance of getting in somewhere. Then come the extracurriculars and all that other fun stuff. If you can't get your app into the 'good enough GPA' pile then your pretty much a gonner. So, I guess GPA is more important.

 

[ElDienteLoco]

You have to have both. Just like the last post said, if you have one but not the other, you're in trouble. Good Luck. The school I'm at (Arizona) also weighs service and experience heavily, but you still have to have a sold GPA and a competitive DAT to get in.

 

[drhobie7]

I'd be more impressed by a high DAT because I have no idea how hard it was for an applicant to get a high GPA, unless I went to his/her undergrad school too.

 

[RaiderNation]

I'd be more impressed by a high DAT because I have no idea how hard it was for an applicant to get a high GPA, unless I went to his/her undergrad school too.

I totally agree. I would be more impressed with a 25 DAT and a 3.0 GPA than a 18 DAT and a 3.7 GPA, but I don't know if adcomms feel the same way.

 

[dexadental]

That makes no sense at all, some people must work, some people have zero time to study for the DAT...therefore your argument that DAT wins is worthless...
While undergraduate institutions vary in their handling of grades, people vary in their ability to afford time for such a test as the DAT. Bottom line: both are fairly important, but neither more important than the other.

 

[drengineer]

I agree with Dexadental...
But...

A person with a 3.8 or above GPA is expected to get atleast a 20 on the DAt and nothing less otherwise it raises some flags about his GPA.

On the other hand a person with 3.0 GPA who scores 20+ on the DAT is giving an indication to the adcom that he can strike back any time with full power and vengeance.

But then some people don't do very well under timed and pressure conditions, so i believe adcom should place equal emphasis on both the GPA and the DAT.

 

[sdnmember]

I agree with Dexadental...
But...

A person with a 3.8 or above GPA is expected to get atleast a 20 on the DAt and nothing less otherwise it raises some flags about his GPA.

On the other hand a person with 3.0 GPA who scores 20+ on the DAT is giving an indication to the adcom that he can strike back any time with full power and vengeance.

But then some people don't do very well under timed and pressure conditions, so i believe adcom should place equal emphasis on both the GPA and the DAT.

Hardly. How can you even begin to compare a hard major such as engineering with something as easy as business or art. You can't. A 3.2 engineering major EASILY spends MUCH more work on studying than a 3.7 business or art major. It's extremely unfair.

If you put it that way, the best goal for a pre health student would be to pick the easiest possible major in the easiest school.

Some of these *hard majors is not simply "i'll study my ass off and i'll get an A". Whereas in what business class is the test not multiple guess? It's disgusting really, if you think about it.

The DAT at least is *somewhat standardized.

 

[BlkWrxwagon2004]

ok there sdnmember...have u ever taking accounting, operations management, statistics, business law, corporate finance...obviously not if your saying that business is easy... i totally agree that both gpa and dat are equally important... I studied just as much to get an A in physics as i did to get an A in Finance...

 

[RaiderNation]

Hardly. How can you even begin to compare a hard major such as engineering with something as easy as business or art. You can't. A 3.2 engineering major EASILY spends MUCH more work on studying than a 3.7 business or art major. It's extremely unfair.

If you put it that way, the best goal for a pre health student would be to pick the easiest possible major in the easiest school.

Some of these *hard majors is not simply "i'll study my ass off and i'll get an A". Whereas in what business class is the test not multiple guess? It's disgusting really, if you think about it.

The DAT at least is *somewhat standardized.

I mostly agree. The DAT is the equalizer. Let's be honest here folks, the effort it takes to get a 3.0 at one school might get you a 3.7 at another. The DAT, although not perfect, is designed to bring things like that to light. It's not perfect, but it does work.

 

[ElDienteLoco]

GPA is probably more important, but they go hand in hand. If you have a crappy DAT and a high GPA your chance of acceptance drops. If you have a crappy GPA and a good DAT you have a slight chance of getting in somewhere. Then come the extracurriculars and all that other fun stuff. If you can't get your app into the 'good enough GPA' pile then your pretty much a gonner. So, I guess GPA is more important.

Standardized isn't what matters.

If you leave a state school in North Dakota where you have a one-on-one biochem program with a 3.9 you will get a better look from the admissions committee than if you got a 3.1 from Yale.

You need both a "good enough" GPA and a "good enough" DAT and you need to be a real person in the interview...and you're in!

 

[RaiderNation]

ok there sdnmember...have u ever taking accounting, operations management, statistics, business law, corporate finance...obviously not if your saying that business is easy... i totally agree that both gpa and dat are equally important... I studied just as much to get an A in physics as i did to get an A in Finance...

There are many Business classes that are killer. Although I would say they are not quite at the level of o-chem and things like that. But then again, everyone is different. Heck, some people find o-chem easy and others treat it like the black plague.

 

[Three-Oh]

please ignore this post, it's just a side note....

...the longer and longer threads are, the more 'less meaningful' they become...

...ok, continue with your pointles debate guys...

 

[RaiderNation]

Standardized isn't what matters.

If you leave a state school in North Dakota where you have a one-on-one biochem program with a 3.9 you will get a better look from the admissions committee than if you got a 3.1 from Yale.

You need both a "good enough" GPA and a "good enough" DAT and you need to be a real person in the interview...and you're in!

What do you mean 'standardized isn't what matters'? Isn't that one of the main ideas behind the DAT? Like I said though, it isn't perfect but it does expose students with inflated grades as well as those that know the material but the letters on their transcripts weren't all that impressive. I'm sure there are many that will disagree though. Just my .02

 

[dexadental]

I don't feel as though the DAT is a good equalizer...I myself have a high GPA, and did well on every section except math...is my entire GPA inflated because of this? I don't think so. I've never gotten less than an A in any college math course in my life yet really messed up on the QR...I think it was more an issue of me not having time to study for it enough, and working under pressure. Taking two classes over the summer, two intense science classes is kinda rough when tryin to also fit in DAT study time...I had to call schools and many told me that yes they did have cut offs, but many people retake the DAT and to send them an email that thell put on my file saying I will retake the DAT. When I asked how the DAT was weighted, they simply said they just want to see that I could apply what I learned...hence the DAT is not some test of doom that will deny you a spot in dental school if you can't count cubes or fold ridiculously hard patterns. I'm not discrediting the DAT, I think its very much needed and a decent test as well, I would just like to add that a few dentists I shadow and who are on admissions committes actually talk down on the DAT, and reason that a good QR score or good PAT score does not make a good dentist, and its really the business skills. I don't necessarily believe this, but it be interesting to have a business section on the DAT, or a personality profile test to determine one's unique ability to attract patients in the future. Perhaps this should be done...

 

[RaiderNation]

I don't feel as though the DAT is a good equalizer...I myself have a high GPA, and did well on every section except math...is my entire GPA inflated because of this? I don't think so. I've never gotten less than an A in any college math course in my life yet really messed up on the QR...I think it was more an issue of me not having time to study for it enough, and working under pressure. Taking two classes over the summer, two intense science classes is kinda rough when tryin to also fit in DAT study time...I had to call schools and many told me that yes they did have cut offs, but many people retake the DAT and to send them an email that thell put on my file saying I will retake the DAT. When I asked how the DAT was weighted, they simply said they just want to see that I could apply what I learned...hence the DAT is not some test of doom that will deny you a spot in dental school if you can't count cubes or fold ridiculously hard patterns. I'm not discrediting the DAT, I think its very much needed and a decent test as well, I would just like to add that a few dentists I shadow and who are on admissions committes actually talk down on the DAT, and reason that a good QR score or good PAT score does not make a good dentist, and its really the business skills. I don't necessarily believe this, but it be interesting to have a business section on the DAT, or a personality profile test to determine one's unique ability to attract patients in the future. Perhaps this should be done...

I see your point. I don't think the DAT is a 'good' test by any means, but they need something to prod us with and attempt to standardize as much as possible. I will be taking the DAT in December and studying for it while taking a full courseload...so I could be in your same situation 5 months from now. I guess we'll have to wait and see what I think about the test after that.....

 

[drhobie7]

Here's what makes someone a good dentist: how well you deal with patients.

Hand skills come with practice.
Business principles can be learned, whether you follow them is up to you.
Knowledge of dentistry can also be learned by just about anyone.
Patient Management: this can be learned too, but it is much more susceptible to the dentist's personality than the others. This is what will make a difference to your patients, not how great the margin on your PFM is.

So, in reality the DAT does not test what is important to becoming a good dentist. It simply gives the school an idea of whether or not you can succeed in dental school classes. It is a way to measure everyone by the same yard stick, and that is important when you're dealing with thousands of applicants from different educational backgrounds. How else would you compare them academically? A 3.8 at TJ Tech is not equal to a 3.3 at UC Berkeley. The reason is obviously because grades are based on curves and classes at Berkeley are composed of more exceptional students than at TJ Tech. The DAT is actually an opportunity for the TJ Tech students to show they're as exceptional as the UC Berkeley grads. It's easy to get angry about the DAT when you get a bad score. Just study harder and kick its ass next time.

 

[bor0000]

i know you might all make a good case for why "gpa is >dat or <dat". But i believe what is of interest is what the adcoms value, not you. So with your inputs, please provide some anecdotal evidence..

and to join the discussion: my school, i dont think it has a strong management dept. yet the only class i took in that dept, accounting, i got a C+ and the class avg was a C+ (in most science classes it's B- to A-). and it certainly was not multiple choice, all the questions were free answers, and i ran out of time for the 3hr exam... of course i blame it on how i didnt study enough at the end, and it was very possible to get an A if you put more effort into it. and in humanities, i know that people write term papers... and the finals are essay-form and if you're not good at writing(me), i dont know how you would go about getting a good grade, even if you read all the assigned books(even if the class avg is A-, you may still get a B-)... also i must say that it is logical for schools to assume that if you got a 3.8 in an easy major or inferior school, you have the potential to get the same 3.8 in a difficult major or at an ivy, because you havent done anything to prove otherwise.... but if you got a 3.2 in a difficult major, you showed that 3.2 is your ceiling.

 

[bwa102]

Correlation of admission criteria with dental school performance and attrition
PL Sandow, AC Jones, CW Peek, FJ Courts, and RE Watson
J Dent Educ. 66(3): 385-392 2002

"This study was conducted to provide current information on the relationship between admission criteria and dental school performance, including the association of admission criteria and dental school outcomes such as remediation and attrition. Standard tests of bivariate association and multivariate regression models appropriate for continuous and discrete dependent variables were used to examine the relationship between multiple indicators of admission criteria and dental school performance for six recent classes at the University of Florida College of Dentistry (UFCD). The admission criteria included the undergraduate science grade point average (GPA), undergraduate non-science GPA, Dental Admissions Test (DAT) academic score, Perceptual Motor Aptitude Test (PMAT) score, and admission interview score. Measures of dental school performance were the National Dental Board Examination Part I and Part II (NB-I, NB-II) scores, yearly and final dental school GPA, and academic progress through the UFCD program. In general, most admission criteria were good bivariate indicators of dental school performance. Multivariate analyses indicated that students with higher undergraduate science GPAs and DAT academic scores were more likely to achieve higher NB-I and NB-II scores. The undergraduate science GPA and admission interview score were the most consistent determinants of dental school GPA. Students with lower undergraduate science GPAs, DAT academic scores, and PMAT scores were more likely to remediate, to repeat an academic year, or to be dismissed. Although bivariate differences were observed in several admission criteria of students who remediated one or more courses, repeated an academic year, or were dismissed only the undergraduate science GPA and the PMAT score were indicators of programmatic progress in the multivariate analysis."

Looks like undergrad sci GPA is more important than DAT, correlating to both board scores and dental school GPA. Though, if your DAT is good enough to get an interview, and you interview well, you are also likely to succeed. All of a sudden, the admissions process seems to make sense... at least in Florida.

 

[drhobie7]

Correlation of admission criteria with dental school performance and attrition
PL Sandow, AC Jones, CW Peek, FJ Courts, and RE Watson
J Dent Educ. 66(3): 385-392 2002

"This study was conducted to provide current information on the relationship between admission criteria and dental school performance, including the association of admission criteria and dental school outcomes such as remediation and attrition. Standard tests of bivariate association and multivariate regression models appropriate for continuous and discrete dependent variables were used to examine the relationship between multiple indicators of admission criteria and dental school performance for six recent classes at the University of Florida College of Dentistry (UFCD). The admission criteria included the undergraduate science grade point average (GPA), undergraduate non-science GPA, Dental Admissions Test (DAT) academic score, Perceptual Motor Aptitude Test (PMAT) score, and admission interview score. Measures of dental school performance were the National Dental Board Examination Part I and Part II (NB-I, NB-II) scores, yearly and final dental school GPA, and academic progress through the UFCD program. In general, most admission criteria were good bivariate indicators of dental school performance. Multivariate analyses indicated that students with higher undergraduate science GPAs and DAT academic scores were more likely to achieve higher NB-I and NB-II scores. The undergraduate science GPA and admission interview score were the most consistent determinants of dental school GPA. Students with lower undergraduate science GPAs, DAT academic scores, and PMAT scores were more likely to remediate, to repeat an academic year, or to be dismissed. Although bivariate differences were observed in several admission criteria of students who remediated one or more courses, repeated an academic year, or were dismissed only the undergraduate science GPA and the PMAT score were indicators of programmatic progress in the multivariate analysis."

Looks like undergrad sci GPA is more important than DAT, correlating to both board scores and dental school GPA. Though, if your DAT is good enough to get an interview, and you interview well, you are also likely to succeed. All of a sudden, the admissions process seems to make sense... at least in Florida.

After you take several classes in epidemiology you'll understand the outcomes of this study are only applicable to UFCD. Every school has a different admissions process so it would be a mistake to generalize this to all dental schools.
And for the post below you, I can't believe you're saying getting a 3.8 from an lower tier undergrad school shows you can do the same at a higher tier one. Try telling someone that since you got a 3.8 at Southern Methodist you can now get a 3.8 at MIT. It's laughable. The only people who will buy it are delusional graduates of that lower tier school. (SMU simply used as an example. Don't email me telling me how challenging SMU is.)
You should spend your time studying for the DAT so you wouldn't have to make these pointless arguments in order to feel better about an undesireable score.

 

[dexadental]

I know fools at MIT who got in there because of connections through parents. Granted these are exceptions, this kind of thing does happen, and idiots do go to these "top" schools, and a genious can be found at a community college. Some people must work for a living, have families, or other obligations that prevent them from moving across the country to say, MIT, Harvard, or Berkley, and live in a dorm and experience "college life". Fortunately I was able to do so, except at UF.

 

[natroncb]

All the above arguments point to GPA and the DAT as being equally important. Some ways GPA is more... some ways DAT is more. Much of this depends on where your strengths and weaknesses arise in your application. A very good point was made above about a person with a 3.8 gpa but only an 18 on the DAT makes the ADCOMS wonder what was going on. But a 3.1 GPA and a 22 DAT makes the ADCOMS think that this person must have some strong potential. That is why all the dental school websites state DAT AND GPA are the top two determining factors into admission decisions.

I personally would like to have a very high DAT and an Ok GPA because it shows I can work under pressure, perform when needed, but that I am still human and am not perfect.

 

[kato999]

At our school the scores of DAT correlated to our performances on the NBDE much closer than our undergrad GPA's. GPA is important but it completely depends on the school/competition.

It's like stength of schedule in college football. Northern Ill and Miami had the same record (9-3) but Miami ended 9th up and Northern Ill was 69th. If only the BCS had the DAT...

 

[natroncb]

At our school the scores of DAT correlated to our performances on the NBDE much closer than our undergrad GPA's. GPA is important but it completely depends on the school/competition.

It's like stength of schedule in college football. Northern Ill and Miami had the same record (9-3) but Miami ended 9th up and Northern Ill was 69th. If only the BCS had the DAT...

This is my thought... the DAT may not be the greatest test (difficulty to score average) but, we are all taking the same test... so you would expect the brightest students to score really high and the lesser to score lower. I change my stance... I think DAT is more important! (gpa is still a huge component though.)

 

[bor0000]

i think what you think is not important, it's the adcoms that make decisions. i'll try my best on both dat and gpa, i still have 1 year before i apply. but this thread has not convinced me on anything. i just know that if i have a 1% chance of gaining admission, i'll apply and stop overanalyzing it.

 

[drhobie7]

i think what you think is not important, it's the adcoms that make decisions. i'll try my best on both dat and gpa, i still have 1 year before i apply. but this thread has not convinced me on anything. i just know that if i have a 1% chance of gaining admission, i'll apply and stop overanalyzing it.

There you go! That's the mindset to have. (I'm not being sarcastic) You're absolutely right, my opinion isn't important (unless I interview you for UCLA, and if I do don't worry...I'm a nice guy. 🙂 ). However, I do think I offer some accurate advice for pre-dents. My intention on writing these posts is to dispell myths and give you guys good info to make your applications more successful.
You should definitely stop worrying about what might happen if you don't get a great DAT or GPA and just bust your arse to make sure they're both good. If you put in a decent amount of time studying for the DAT you'll do well. The DAT is a test that anyone can do well on if he/she practices.

 

[DrTacoElf]

I say DAT without a doubt - its standardized GPAs are not!

 

[Sweeti8286]

It really depends on the school you're applying to-some put the weight more on DAT some weight on your GPA. But regardless, you should do as best as you can- cuz those are the first things they will look at to weed people out quickly. It's if you make the marks then they will spend the time to read the LORs/personal essays....

 

[Pikeyman]

I think it's the GPA. And if the GPA is not so HOT, then I think the DAT is a Second Chance. What do you all think? Do you agree with me?

Aren't you wishing you had studied more and gotten better grades during the 4 years in college so you could walk into this whole process more confidently?

Or

Are you wishing you had studied more for DAT during the time you had set aside to study?

 

[savvysearch]

It really depends on the school. But overall as an applicant, they probably have the same weight. If you have a GPA of 3.5 but with test scores of 16s and 17s on the DAT, you have an uphill battle. Same with someone with a 2.76 GPA and 20s and 21s on their DAT.