What's the general consensus on psychoanalysis?

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loveoforganic

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When I took abnormal, I was told by the prof (clinical psychologist) that the general consensus among the psychological community that most studies on it have proven it to be generally ineffective, with a slight exception to dissociative disorders. Sub areas of psychoanalysis, like brief psychotherapy, he said, were effective, but they focused on using techniques from other paradigms. What do you all think?
 
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First I would like to point out that "general consensus" should not be contrued to mean "true" or "accurate." General consensus held that the earth was flat and that schizophrenia was caused by refrigerator mothers. Obviously, neither one of these turned out to be true. But if your curious because you want to be within "the stardard of practice," then that is understandable. The word "proven" is also strange here. And "ineffective?" Well, whats the defintion of that term anyway. No improvement next to placebo (ie., a no tx condition. which is rare in this literature by the way)? Less effective compared to another orientation perhaps (which is much more common to see), or maybe statistically significant, but not clinically significant?

However, back to the question. In general, the literature demonstrates that the differences in outcome between all the mainstream approaches is rather small. But keep in mind that some of these giant meta-analysises by people like Larry Buetler utilize massive Ns, and individual cases where the orientation was a huge piece of the outcome variance tend to get "washed out" in these massive studies. So, although one orientation might be better for a given disorder on average, this does not really translate well to the inidividual case. But, in general, no orientation has been shown to be "far superior" to another. (Well maybe DBT for Borderline). Some have been shown to work far quicker than others though🙄.......which of course begs the ethical question of "Why subject a patient (financially) to 30 or 40 sessions of dynamic therapy when the lit shows that generally, this can be acomplished in 12-16 sessions of CBT? There is also a notorious consistency in the lit showing a weak correlation between uncovering uncouncious conflict and providing the "corrective emotional experience" and subsequent behavior change. Moreover, about 70% of the variance in treatment outcome is due to the relationship between therapist and patient. Thus, your specific orientation is often a rather moot point anway. As Meehl said, "sometimes people need Ellis, sometimes people need Rogers, sometime people need Freud." This is my personal view as well. Different strokes for different folks.

I am also a big believer in the notion that just because there is no diagnosis or DSM code for "loniliness" or existential unhappiness does not mean that we dont need to treat them. The need for love, understanding, and compassion are all part of the human condition. I believe that sometimes this notion can get lost when approaches become manulaized for disorders and symptoms, rather than for the persons (cough, CBT, cough).

As an aside, Meehl also had an interesting view (consdering his reputation for "dustbowl empiricism") that since science was simply not advanced enough to understand the human psyche or the etiology of psych illness, all we can do for the time being is go with the one that seems to work the best on average. This seems to be CBT and RBT approaches by a very small margin. However, jsut because these approaches work does not equate to them being the truth of what is truly going on (ie., the dynamics and the etiology) since these approaches were developed strictly for psychological intervention and have no real underlying theory of personality. Meehl hypothesized that when science catches up, Freud's ideas would be the one that most closely apprixmate the nature of the troubled human psyche. This is a seductive notion, that frankly, I tend to agree with.

However, I must say that I reread one of my favorite papers just the other day. http://drlinden.net/ccp606827.pdf. Carl Rogers wrote this in 1956 and it strikes me as odd how much of this is true, and how little more we know about the therapuetic process than we did back then. I see little evidence, ethier in the outrcome literature or in my clinical expereince, that anything else is indeed required to facilitate behavior change in at least semi-motivated patients.
 
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there is no general consensus
opinions range from "it's the basis of our profession and the only type of therapy I use" to "it's an anachronistic embarrassment to modern psychiatry used for intellectual masturbation by the urban wealthy"
you'll have to make up your own mind

But only one of the above is correct... :meanie:
 
I am also a big believer in the notion that just because there is no diagnosis or DSM code for "loniliness" or existential unhappiness does not mean that we dont need to treat them. The need for love, understanding, and compassion are all part of the human condition. I believe that sometimes this notion can get lost when approaches become manulaized for disorders and symptoms, rather than for the persons (cough, CBT, cough).

It's interesting you bring this up, because in prior threads, I've been fairly adamant AGAINST this notion, but somehow, when presented by a psychologist, it seems like a perfectly reasonable and obvious conclusion.

And to be clear, I value the work psychologists do every bit as much as psychiatrists, as much as I value both chocolate cake and cherry pie. My conception of the psychiatrist's role is that of someone who treats the pathologies that have been accepted by our own greater community as within our purview (i.e., the DSM code pathologies). Normal variants of behavior and emotion have always been the psychologist's realm, not ours. And we should be respectful of the expertise of one another, and of our unique treatment philosophies.

Practically speaking, I have a strong reaction to there being persons with severe mental illness not being able to get an appointment in a timely manner when there are physicians whom the public has paid to train to do this work spending substantial portions of their time doing work that does not fall within a medical model. Add to this the fact that many (of course, not all) of these practices are lucrative and cater to the whims of entitled, affluent people, and I wind up with a very bad taste in my mouth.

And much of this comes from growing up in areas where access to psychiatric care is terrible, and seeing the deaths of family members who may have received much better care had they lived in a Boston or a New York where there are three psychiatrists for every two patients, and "access to care" can mean finding a convenient ATM on the way to your appointment.

I'll have to keep thinking about this. My neighbor is a psychologist who spends something like 20k a month on billboards all over town advertising for treatment for various non-DSM conditions (sports-performance, job confidence, etc.), and he sees people in his basement, and obviously pulls in enough cash to offset the 20k/month in billboards! I don't mind this at all, but I'm acutely aware that if he had an M.D. at the end of his name, I'd probably keep a camera on his door trying to catch him sleeping with a patient so I could get his license stripped.

I've had public debates with DS and MoM about this before (friendly, I recall), and I use pretty colorful language in stating my opinion, but at this point I'm just really interested that when psychologists, colleagues whom I respect, make this point, I have very little objection.
 
Thank you. However, just to clarify for others reading, I didnt mean to suggest that psychiatrists should be treating those whom they cant get reimbursed for (ie., people with no formal diagnosis). My point was that some psychotherapies (ie., CBT) have attached themselves to the medical model in the sense that that their underlying theory follows the medical model: 1.) symptoms 2.) specific intervention(s) to alleviate the symptoms. This is the medical model, symptom erradication only. There are other therapies besides CBT that I think account much better for the nature and complexity of the human pyche. This does not neccearily make them more efficacious, just a little bit closer to approximating the true nature of the human condition, IMHO.

Last year, I had a patient come in to our practicum clinic who was in serious emotional distress. He was 48, isolated from his family, unmarried, and lonely. There was no diagnostic code for "middle-age existential crisis" and I found very few concrete "symptoms" to fix or alleviate. Just alot of regrets and internal turmoil. I think this is where one really sees the limits of our current taxometric classificiation system based upon the medical model. I looked for way to treat him, not symptoms, and not a disorder. We used a mix bag of client-centered active listening (Rogers), psychodynamic-like explorations (Freud), zen mindfulness (Buddist Monks), and some acceptance and commitment stuff. I'm not sure a CBT orientation or conceptualization of this case would have allowed us to explore the emotional complexities that existed in this mans head.

A supervisor once told me that if everyone were as naturally rational at their core as CBT assumes people to be, no one would need therapy in the first place...:laugh:

PS: Clinical psychology tends to be rooted in alot of formality, similar to psychiatry. We dont use billboards either! Your friend sounds more like a "life coach" (perhaps an excentric counseling psychologist) considering he is seeing people in his basement.
 
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My problem with CBT is people are often the first to admit that their distortions aren't rational. But it's the "head-heart" disconnect. What you know to be true rationally still doesn't feel true inside. CBT doesn't really have the answer for that. I find CBT techniques to be essential in any form of therapy, but pure CBT all the way I don't much care for.
 
I agree with much of what has been posted. CBT is without a doubt the head honcho at the moment in academic circles, but it is CERTAINLY not without flaw. Erg makes a great point, that it can be a bit like trying to pound a round peg through the square hole when dealing with someone who does not have an actual disorder. I hate treating healthy clients though😉

I know very few people with any respect for old-school psychoanalysis (e.g. the dream analysis crowd, who despite what the media portrays, has largely been laughed out of the field), though modern psychodynamic therapy is another story entirely and has a much wider fan base.

I'm primarily CBT-oriented. My research is closer to cognitive/affective neuroscience than traditional clinical psychology, and I primarily do smoking cessation which is not exactly an area that lends itself well to anything but CBT. I'm not actually sure I've seen anything other than CBT even studied for smoking (well...excepting "supportive therapy", MI, and other things that are qualitatively different). That said, I don't have a big problem with modern psychodynamics (though I don't walk around proclaiming that). I do think there are far too many dinosaurs in the field who have clearly not picked up a journal since the 1960's. However, I do take issue with is a large portion of projective testing. I don't consider them purely psychodynamic, but there is certainly a large overlap. Some use these tests as rapport building, which I don't really have a problem with. Anything that gets clients to open up who otherwise wouldn't cannot possible be a bad thing. Using it for diagnostic purposes is a different story, and I just don't think there is enough legitimate evidence to justify the time spent by either the client or the therapist.
 
Last year, I had a patient come in to our practicum clinic who was in serious emotional distress. He was 48, isolated from his family, unmarried, and lonely. There was no diagnostic code for "middle-age existential crisis" and I found very few concrete "symptoms" to fix or alleviate.

v62.89
 
:laugh:....thats what had to put when i wrote formal "treatment plan. "
 
I agree with Ollie that the days of laying back on the couch and having an analyst implore "the fundamental rule" are largely gone. Nonetheless, the extent to which ones perceives the prominence and availability of relatively strict psychoanalytic/psychodynamic therapies is largely a function of where you are located and how entrenched you are in academia. Ollie, I know your program is pretty much a clinical science model and that you largely associate with academic clinical psychologists. I am in the bay area of CA and it is easy to find academic and scholarly psychologists who practice and have a much more open view of the field. I am basing this in comparison to my experiences in Kansas, Kentucky, and Florida. Its a different world here, but I do NOT find it one where these people are at all removed from scholarship and academic affiliations. You would not believe some of the things my supervisor has told me that used to go on at the prestigious and very research heavy Palo Alto VA just 30 years ago. Especially the sex therapies he got to do, oh lord the disturbing mental images we all got from that...lol. It was an experimental time in psychology and society in general, especially in this area. This professor teaches ethics as well, but even he admits that he sometimes he yearns for his internship days, when psychologists were encouraged to be more free and experimental. But then, as he puts it, came the age of the "empirically-validated treatment Nazis"......Just food for thought.

My program requires us to get 30 hours of therapy for ourselves, and I purposely chose a dynamic therapist. I am comfortable enough in my own mental health to know I do not have any serious problems on the surface and simply thought this would be more "fun." I did the whole package; free associations, dream stuff (but we do these as a fun introspective exercise, not to guide treatment), theme spotting, etc. Overall, I found it be an interesting endeavor that increased my ability to entertain alternate hypothesis about what might be going on (cause lets face it, none of us really know for certain what is behind all our patients problems) and to increase my own self-reflection and introspection. These are abilities all good clinical psychologists and psychiatrists should posses. I could not do the Rorschach or TAT though because I had learned them already. Yes, we learn the Rorshcach here too!

I too I am not a fan of projectives, especially the Rorschach, but possibly for different reasons than you. There is very little psychoanalytic theory left in Exner's scoring system (Klopfer's is a different story though), so its not that. Its mainly thats its a psychometric nightmare. The behavioral correlates are weak for everything except a couple of the DEP and Thought Disorder indices and the norms are poor and flawed (see Garb, Wood, Lillienfeld et al). However, most detrimental from an assessment perspective is simply "the law of diminishing returns." Almost anything you can get from it, I can get from other instrument with better psychometric properties without the scoring headache of the Rorschach. The time you put into it is simply not worth what you will typically get back from it.
 
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What's the thought on narrative therapy?
 
Nope, I agree entirely with what you said about the Rorschach, that's exactly how I feel about it.

I know there are certain areas and certain circles where traditional psychoanalysis is still around. Really though...just look at the journals and books. There's 100 books for CBT/DBT/etc. coming out for every one that even touches on psychoanalysis, and I can't remember the last time I saw a psychoanalytic article published anywhere but an obscure, low impact, specialty journal. Unless we count assessment journals that are still finding flaws in the Rorschach😉 Again though, make the point that I'm discussing true psychoanalysis, and that modern psychodynamics is a very different thing.

I'm not surprised to hear that people still have some longing for the "Good ole days". Frankly, it DOES sound fun and interesting. Surgery is probably more fun for surgeons than handing someone a bottle of pills, but I don't think that's a good reason to try and cure lupus by hacking out someone's appendix😉 We had a conference here that I heard about from some fellow students who went. It was brought up that one of the biggest barriers to evidence-based treatments is that its not as "fun" for the therapist. This was a combined meeting of practitioners and academics, and many of the practitioners agreed that it was an issue at their practice. Its fairly obvious why that is, but its still nauseating to think that professionals would actually behave in such a manner. Its one thing to reminisce about it, another to base treatment off it, and ignore all new evidence because it isn't "fun". The fact that this is still somewhat accepted in the field is I think one of the major reasons therapy doesn't get the respect that it deserves.
 
Does anyone incorporate existential or humanistic psychiatry theory into their practice?

I know its unpopular and impractical in many cases. But I'd think its useful in depression and suicidality, personality disorders.... especially when combined with existential unhappiness. Thinking of the above-stated point that once an unconscious motivation is unmasked we can't always find a "corrective emotional experience". I think part of it is that in some situations there really is no ideal or adequate corrective emotional experience. In some cases the corrective emotional experience may be inconsistent with the patients world-view

I was talking to a patient yesterday, who simply couldnt get her head around the fact that other people will knowingly do wrong by her, even when they have an alternative, and that people are unfair. This isnt really psychoanalytic, but, what is the corrective emotional experience in this? Learning to re-interpret, and not take things personally only goes so far. Most people get by in situations like my patient's because they've accepted and internalized the fact that people are unfair. Personally, I dont think I've internalized this myself.

I think that existential or humanistic psych can get deeper than other frameworks. If CBT is at the surface - dealing with behaviors in an outside-inward approach; and psychoanalysis deals with unconsious motivations... then existential psych is the deepest. It explores the reasons behind why stuff gets filed into the unconsious, or why we may have separate 'efferent' and 'afferent' egos, or why we have to put up a defense mechanism against p but not q.

Anyway... getting my patient to even understand that people are unfair was a challenge. The only way I saw out of it was to turn her whole thought process upside down and point out that her assumption that people should act fairly rather than in their own interest is entirely her own assumtion.

Thoughts?
 
I think what you did is perfectly fine, although I would label what you attempted to do as "cognitive restructuring", rather than "corrective emotional experience" given that you're not using a orthodox analytic framework. Corrective experience (actually coined by Alexander I believe, not Freud) really refers more to a process of opening up and working through what has been suppressed, oppressed and repressed and having the client experience a form of acceptance from the therapist that they should have originally experienced from the mother or father. The therapist does very little actually. Remember, in orthodox analytic theory, almost all problems of adulthood are laid before age 12 or so by the parental figures. Hence why the "corrective experience" is really supposed to be a reexperiencing of the proper acceptance/reaction of the mother or father. This is how it has always been taught to me anyway. As you can see, its pretty orthodox. Because you are being rather active in your process (verbally redirecting through explantation) and not tieing her belief/reacton to some childhood incident, this strikes me more as CBTish "cognitive restructuring" method (eg., thinking about the situation differently and trying to get her to consider alternative explanations) than "corrective emotional experience." Lastly, I don’t really think of humanistic (which is interchangeable with "client-centered" from Rogers) as unpopular. In fact, I see it as the basis of psychotherapy, no matter what other approaches one might use. I mentioned this approach (but used the synonym "client-centered") in a previous post and linked an article that I think is great for novice therapists. You will build your "tool kit" as you get more experience, but when you start, this is is a must read IMHO. With the exception of those who might be floridly psychotic or manic, I have not really pinpointed anything in this article that has been disproven in the 50 years since its original publication. http://drlinden.net/ccp606827.pdf

Ollie, anything not in this article that the modern lit says that a clinician must do? How much progress and how many insights have we really gained about the process since then is kinda my point here? Also, when I mentioned my former supervisor's occasional longing for "the good ole days," I wasn’t really referring to psychoanalysis/psychodynamics. He was never into that actually. What he was really talking about were the days when psychs had more freedom with their practice, academics were researching therapies outside the CBT box and really focused on underlying personality theory as well; a time when psychotherapy was more innovative and utilized more Eastern philosophy. Yes, it was the early and mid 70s..haha. You should hear about some of the sex therapies he did with couples UCSF during this time, Yikes! Not that they were harmful or unethical, but just vastly different than what is mainstream today. I just find that to be a facinating time on many levels, a time before the profession got "boxed in" so to speak.

I was at a training the other day at our university's community clinic (I am no longer a therapist there since I'm a neuropsych track person) where our diehard CBT clinic director was telling us about a seminar he went to where the presenter got all excited about the novel notion of "just being there in the moment with your client" when techniques dont work as planned. The degree to which this profession rediscovers itslelf is amazing, and kinda sad I think. "All my greatest ideas were stolen by the ancients"...DOH! 🙂
 
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How do people feel about utilizing principles of mindfulness, acceptance, and meditation? After all, it has been around a few thousand years longer than traditional western psychotherapies, right? I don't know many depressed or anxious Buddhist monks either. I sometimes discuss the potential benefits of utilizing yoga and/or meditation in addition to the formal therapy hour with my clients. Obviously, I'm talking about clients who are relatively insightful and/or still functional at the outpatient level here. There are also plenty of places in the Palo Alto and bay area where these classes are free, not sure about other areas though. Personally, I think the modern world demands so much multi-tasking and fast paced switching, that it's nice to train ourselves to focus on the moment and "just be" for a change. Any thoughts here?
 
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How do people feel about utilizing principles of mindfulness, acceptance, and meditation? After all, it has been around a few thousand years longer than traditional western psychotherapies, right? I don’t know many depressed or anxious Buddhist monks either. I sometimes discuss the potential benefits of utilizing yoga and/or meditation in addition to the formal therapy hour with my clients. Obviously, I'm talking about clients who are relatively insightful and/or still functional at the outpatient level here. There are also plenty of places in the Palo Alto and bay area where these classes are free, not sure about other areas though. Personally, I think the modern world demands so much multi-tasking and fast paced switching, that it’s nice to train ourselves to focus on the moment and "just be" for a change. Any thoughts here?

Mindfulness is part of the DBT "package", and is also being used in substance abuse treatment. So, a useful item in the toolbox, yes.
 
Anyway... getting my patient to even understand that people are unfair was a challenge. The only way I saw out of it was to turn her whole thought process upside down and point out that her assumption that people should act fairly rather than in their own interest is entirely her own assumtion.

Thoughts?

I think what you did is perfectly fine

But is it effective? Can we tweak somone's gut instincts ... especally when it seems that they are doing the right thing. (and that was part of her diffuculty in accepting things) Am I suggesting that she adopt an unhealthy or immature coping mechanism? I think that if I knew how to go all Humanstic on her (and I don't really), I would be able to get her to arrive at her own conclusions
 
The short and very simple answer is sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. The ambiguity and uncertainty is something that I and almost everyone else I know had all of trouble with at the beggining.

If you would like to "bust out the Humanistic" and "get all Rogerian" on her, just read up it. PM me if you would like a list of citations. Also, watch a few tapes of Rogers or other humanists doing therapy. You'll catch on.
 
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There is plenty of data that demonstrate the efficacy of psychodynamic treatments for a variety of conditions--just as there is plenty of data that confirm that current medications are not particularly good at treating most of our disorders. It is intellectually and professionally irresponsible to accept pharma and cbt as better than psychodynamic treatment just because there are more articles on them.

If you are looking for typical articles that focus on analytic treatments (ie, transference-based treatments as opposed to treatments that simply focus on dynamics), try:

Transference focused psychotherapy: overview and update.Kernberg OF, Yeomans FE, Clarkin JF, Levy KN. Int J Psychoanal. 2008 Jun;89(3):601-20.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

or

Evaluating three treatments for borderline personality disorder: a multiwave study.Clarkin JF, Levy KN, Lenzenweger MF, Kernberg OF. Am J Psychiatry. 2007 Jun;164(6):922-8.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

or

A randomized controlled clinical trial of psychoanalytic psychotherapy for panic disorder.Milrod B, Leon AC, Busch F, Rudden M, Schwalberg M, Clarkin J, Aronson A, Singer M, Turchin W, Klass ET, Graf E, Teres JJ, Shear MK.1: Am J Psychiatry. 2007 Feb;164(2):265-72
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
 
How do people feel about utilizing principles of mindfulness, acceptance, and meditation? After all, it has been around a few thousand years longer than traditional western psychotherapies, right? I don't know many depressed or anxious Buddhist monks either. I sometimes discuss the potential benefits of utilizing yoga and/or meditation in addition to the formal therapy hour with my clients. Obviously, I'm talking about clients who are relatively insightful and/or still functional at the outpatient level here. There are also plenty of places in the Palo Alto and bay area where these classes are free, not sure about other areas though. Personally, I think the modern world demands so much multi-tasking and fast paced switching, that it's nice to train ourselves to focus on the moment and "just be" for a change. Any thoughts here?

Surprise! The hindu/buddhist approves of mindfulness.

Seriously though, I am finishing up a meta-analysis and was stunned. It's extremely effective. I rechecked my numbers about 85,000 times. Because I was shocked at how positive they were.

I think there's a lot of neuroscientific 'sense' to mindfulness, and personally, I've found it to be extremely effective at helping with both chronic pain and in the physical rehabilitation process.

Also as an exercise phys guy, I'm pretty well convinced that exercise and nutrition can have significant effects on mental health. Countering the changes seen in the HPA/HPG axes often seen in various psych disorders. As well as changing the reactivity and baseline of the autonomic nervous system.
 
Also as an exercise phys guy, I'm pretty well convinced that exercise and nutrition can have significant effects on mental health. Countering the changes seen in the HPA/HPG axes often seen in various psych disorders. As well as changing the reactivity and baseline of the autonomic nervous system.

Cool. One of my main research foci is studying the cognitive and neuroendocrinological profile of psychotic major depression via examination of the HPA axis.
 
I can't remember the last time I saw a psychoanalytic article published anywhere but an obscure, low impact, specialty journal.

Ollie, "low impact" journals? With all due respect, get real man. Take a step outside the academic box and utilize what's out there. Some of the most informative articles for practice are published in journals like Clinical Psychlogy Review, Journal of Clinical Pyschology, etc. Yes, I know not all of them are randomized trials, but sometimes we need to read about more than just Cohen's D effect sizes. 🙂
 
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Cool. One of my main research foci is studying the cognitive and neuroendocrinological profile of psychotic major depression via examination of the HPA axis.

very cool, I'm hoping to make headway in researching whether a purely 'physiological' intervention of a well-designed and scientifically sound exercise program can improve depression/anxiety. It's shocking how little exercise phys is applied when we research exercise interventions in medicine
 
very cool, I'm hoping to make headway in researching whether a purely 'physiological' intervention of a well-designed and scientifically sound exercise program can improve depression/anxiety. It's shocking how little exercise phys is applied when we research exercise interventions in medicine

even in PM&R?
 
Ollie, "low impact" journals? With all due respect, get real man. Take a step outside the academic box and utilize what's out there. Some of the most informative articles for practice are published in journals like Clinical Psychlogy Review, Journal of Clinical Pyschology, etc. Yes, I know not all of them are randomized trials, but sometimes we need to read about more than just Cohen's D effect sizes. 🙂

Oh, I don't disagree that there is useful stuff outside of the mainstream journals and empirical work. Though that said, I consider both of the journals you mentioned to be well within the mainstream. I glanced through the Clinical Psychology Reviews so far this year, and only saw 1-2 articles that seemed to take a psychodynamic perspective, and none I'd consider to fall under the category of classical psychoanalysis, though admittedly this was not at all thorough so I may have missed something.

My point was just that psychoanalysis isn't exactly a hot topic right now. Of course, I don't know that CBT is either, I think the 3rd generation therapies (e.g. ACT, Mindfulness) are the hot ones, and we're going to see a slow down in CBT over the next decade.

I also don't disagree with your earlier statement that we have not exactly had overwhelming progress on the therapy front. I think the main reason for that is our approach has been wrong (namely, the lack of concern for mechanisms). I dislike the fact that academia is often more of a quest to produce p values than actual progress. However, I do think its important to limit experimentation in practice til after proven treatments have been tried and failed. To do otherwise is just completely unethical in my eyes.
 
Ok, well then we do agree then for the most part. I also do not approve of experimentation with completely novel ideas or approaches. This can be dangerous and backfire. What I do take issue with is the EVT movment that continously tries to point out "lack of emprical support" for reasons not to engage in something that has actually been utilized in various forms for hundreds, sometimes thousand of years (meditation or mindfulness), and for failing to understand that just because an approach/technique seems to work better for a particular disorder does not translate very well to individual cases. Namely, because its a person that your ultimately dealing with, not a disorder.

I remember reading Richard McFall's (the father of the "clinical science" training model) A Manifesto for a Scientific Clinical Psychology and him making a bunch of analogies to physics and chemistry and making a statement to the effect of "Well, whats the alternative, an unscientific clinical psychology?" My first thought was, well no, of course not, but how scientific are we really capable of being with such an intangible process/construct? We are just not there yet. And, no, this state of affairs would not be acceptable in a science like chemistry or physics, but this is NOT chemistry or physics. Nor will it probably ever be! Why deny the uncertainty and ambuguity that is our profesion at this point in time? In my mind, psychotherapy will probably always be an art, built from an underlying science.
 
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Ok, well then we do agree then for the most part. I also do not approve of experimentation with completely novel ideas or approaches. This can be dangerous and backfire. What I do take issue with is the EVT movment that continously tries to point out "lack of emprical support" for reasons not to engage in something that has actually been utilized in various forms for hundreds, sometime thousand of years, and for failing to understand that just because an approach/technique seems to work better for a particular disorder does not translate very well to individual cases. Namely, because its a person that your ultimately dealing with, not a disorder.

I remember reading Richard McFall's (the father of the "clinical science" training model) A Manifesto for a Scientific Clinical Psychology and him making a bunch of analogies to physics and chemistry and making a statement to the effect of "Well, whats the alternative, an unscientific clinical psychology?" My first thought was, well no, of course not, but how scientific are we really capable of being with such an intangible process/construct? We are just not there yet. And, no, this state of affairs would not be acceptable in a science like chemistry or physics, but this is NOT chemistry or physics. Nor will it probably ever be! Why deny the uncertainty and ambuguity that is our profesion at this point in time? In my mind, psychotherapy will probably always be an art, built from an underlying science.

Don't completely agree with the second paragraph, but don't completely disagree either. We need to acknowledge the inherent ambiguity, but at the same time, that doesn't mean throwing our arms up and saying "We're never going to understand it, so we might as well just do what we want". Its tough to find the balance🙂

You are completely correct regarding literature based off averages not necessarily speaking to individual clients. The only additional point I'll make (and I don't think you're arguing against this) is that these sorts of decisions should be based off the clients needs, and I think all too often that is ignored. Classic example I've mentioned before on the psychology board is exposure therapy for specific phobias. Pretty much all evidence points towards it being enormously successful for nearly everyone, can produce fairly lasting results in a relatively short time frame, etc. Problem is, it can be incredibly distressing and not everyone will agree to treatment. Still, the idea needs to be presented to clients, and the decision about what to pursue needs to be mutual. If someone has the client come in twice a week for 2 years at $200 a session to analyze why they have that fear, or throws a Rx for benzos at them and sends them on their way without so much as considering the possibility of exposure therapy or making sure the client is aware of it, I say yank their license. I think the intangibility of the disorders we work with has made us a little too comfortable operating outside of evidence-based guidelines. We will probably never reach the point we can have as strict a protocol as areas that deal more in the absolute, but I think all too often that becomes an excuse to base treatment decisions off the practitioners needs, rather than the clients.
 
even in PM&R?

to some degree, yes. But I'll admit to having a very foul taste in my mouth WRT neurology/PM&R as a patient myself. Had to design my own rehabilitation/physical therapy program from the ground up. Admittedly, I am one very messed up monkey. But I was and still am shocked by the blank stares I frequently got on how to deal with various NMSK issues, when kinesiologists and CSCSs understood immediately what was going on. Not to mention the fact that every doc I see still tells me to 'stop lifting weights', ignoring the demonstrable improvement on physical exam and MRI directly stemming from a scientifically-based weight-training protocol. I used to have no ROM in my back. Now I have some. My facet syndrome was a near-constant phenomenon for years, and now it only bothers me once or twice a week. I used to have radiculopathy and myelopathic symptoms at rest. Now they have to be provoked. My arm tired out so fast I couldn't shave myself without taking breaks, or hold a phone with it, or write half a page. Now i do all of those things. I was taking 15mg Mobic QD, now I take it once a month. 'Weights are evil'. Really? So how else do you correct large musculoskeletal imbalances when the rubber bands aren't doing it? How do you improve the flexibility of a muscle if its weak and shortened? How do you improve muscular endurance during loaded activities without weights? etc etc etc. Shutting up now.

Back to psych though. We throw people on a treadmill for an arbitrary length of time and then see if it changes anything on their BDI/BAI. Why? When there's a host of studies by the exercise phys people indicating that different forms of exercise at different intensities and durations have different effects hormonally and on the autonomic nervous system? Why have people do steady state cardio when it tends not to change BMR (or decrease it) and raises cortisol. Given that people with depression often have lower BMRs and higher cortisol. Why not interval training, which can increase BMR and has a much smaller effect on cortisol? And when explosive strength training tends to decrease sympathetic tone, why haven't we tried that in anxiety patients, instead of throwing them on the treadmill, which has minimal effect on sympathetic tone?

It seems we're still stuck in the world of Kenneth Cooper. Where only 'aerobic' exercise has health benefits. And nothing else comes close.
/end rant.
 
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Don't completely agree with the second paragraph, but don't completely disagree either. We need to acknowledge the inherent ambiguity, but at the same time, that doesn't mean throwing our arms up and saying "We're never going to understand it, so we might as well just do what we want". Its tough to find the balance🙂

Yes it is, and its an epistomoligical question that really boils down to philosophy of science, I think. Although I certainly prefer rigorous methods whenever they are suitable, Aristotle's dictum that one should not study a subject matter at a precision beyond which it permits is important to keep in mind here, IMHO.
 
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Yes it is, and an epistomoligical question that really boils down to philosophy of science, I think. Although I certainly prefer rigorous methods whenever they are suitable, Aristotle's dictum that one should not study a subject matter at a precision beyond which it permits is important to keep in mind here, IMHO.


I just KNEW that this is where we were going to end up.

Allow me to offer Developmental Psychology as an example of the above.
 
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