What's the lowest down the rank list you can realistically match in FM?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

MedicineZ0Z

Full Member
7+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2015
Messages
1,985
Reaction score
1,918
I always keep hearing how everyone gets their top 2-3 picks in FM but what about lower? Below top 5? Below top 10 (haven't heard of this one personally)?
I think I've seen IMGs rank 5-6 FM places and not match and seen an IMG rank 7 IM programs and not match. Haven't seen much in this sense for FM.

Members don't see this ad.
 
you can match on the bottom or not match at all. But most reasonable FM candidates do just fine

The match is a fickle mistress.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I always keep hearing how everyone gets their top 2-3 picks in FM but what about lower? Below top 5? Below top 10 (haven't heard of this one personally)?
I think I've seen IMGs rank 5-6 FM places and not match and seen an IMG rank 7 IM programs and not match. Haven't seen much in this sense for FM.

Dépends on the specialty and applicant - the vast majority of USMDs in all specialties match into their top 3 regardless of specialty whereas half of IMGs don’t match at all
 
35.4% independent applicants didn't match in 2018 per nrmp data. 51.5% matches in top 3.
 
Bottom line:
  • If you're USMD, hope to match well.
  • If you're IMG, hope to match.
 
Dépends on the specialty and applicant - the vast majority of USMDs in all specialties match into their top 3 regardless of specialty whereas half of IMGs don’t match at all
US grads and for family medicine specifically. I did notice (in the charting outcome files) there's almost no one who ranks more than 7-9 programs and doesn't match. Maybe 1 person? And they're usually under the 16+ interviews category.
 
US grads and for family medicine specifically. I did notice (in the charting outcome files) there's almost no one who ranks more than 7-9 programs and doesn't match. Maybe 1 person? And they're usually under the 16+ interviews category.
You'll be fine. I was a super weak applicant and matched #2.
 
You'll be fine. I was a super weak applicant and matched #2.

And I felt like I was a super strong (stats wise) applicant and I didn’t match. Despite 9 ranks.

I’m admittedly introverted and awkward though.

Most do fine, still don’t know what happened to me...
 
And I felt like I was a super strong (stats wise) applicant and I didn’t match. Despite 9 ranks.

I’m admittedly introverted and awkward though.

Most do fine, still don’t know what happened to me...
I know that feel, matched my last ranked program despite never being turned down after a job interview or medical school interview. Maybe I was just too nervous because of the stakes, who knows, but I'm happy where I'm at
 
I know that feel, matched my last ranked program despite never being turned down after a job interview or medical school interview. Maybe I was just too nervous because of the stakes, who knows, but I'm happy where I'm at

I hear ya, apart from the sting to my pride from not matching, it ended up for the better in my case. My SOAP spot was way better program than anything I’d ranked.
 
I hear ya, apart from the sting to my pride from not matching, it ended up for the better in my case. My SOAP spot was way better program than anything I’d ranked.
Now you are making the $$$...
 
And I felt like I was a super strong (stats wise) applicant and I didn’t match. Despite 9 ranks.

I’m admittedly introverted and awkward though.

Most do fine, still don’t know what happened to me...

family medicine?
I know that feel, matched my last ranked program despite never being turned down after a job interview or medical school interview. Maybe I was just too nervous because of the stakes, who knows, but I'm happy where I'm at
also, family medicine? I feel like these are statistical anomalies... NRMP official data makes it seem so rare to match below #6 in FM
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I think another scenario for matching lower down on one's rank list might be if the top of the list contains things like IM, FM+Peds, FM+Psych, etc. Not sure if this kind of list is rare or common...
 
If you look good on paper, but can't get the job done in person, you could get an interview everywhere you apply, rank every place you interview, and fail to match. Doesn't matter if your rank list has 2, 20, or 200 programs on it. Every program uses a "do not rank" pile after interviews. Your med school should prevent this from happening to you by preparing you for the interview process, preferably with personal feedback. And you can save yourself from having this happen to you by using the first 3.5 years of med school to get good at collecting feedback and developing self-awareness, and by sincerely working to be a strong performer welcome on a team.
 
If you look good on paper, but can't get the job done in person, you could get an interview everywhere you apply, rank every place you interview, and fail to match. Doesn't matter if your rank list has 2, 20, or 200 programs on it. Every program uses a "do not rank" pile after interviews. Your med school should prevent this from happening to you by preparing you for the interview process, preferably with personal feedback. And you can save yourself from having this happen to you by using the first 3.5 years of med school to get good at collecting feedback and developing self-awareness, and by sincerely working to be a strong performer welcome on a team.

I’d like to think that I was more than capable of “getting the job done” if you’re talking about being a solid resident. My scores were above average for the field, and I got program-high ITE scores, excellent evals, and got along great with everyone.

But if you’re talking about being immediately comfortable in a social setting with a group of people you’ve never met, while being painfully aware that every move you make and everything you say is being judged; yeah I sucked at that. Still do. And I paid the price for it in the match.
 
If you look good on paper, but can't get the job done in person, you could get an interview everywhere you apply, rank every place you interview, and fail to match. Doesn't matter if your rank list has 2, 20, or 200 programs on it. Every program uses a "do not rank" pile after interviews. Your med school should prevent this from happening to you by preparing you for the interview process, preferably with personal feedback. And you can save yourself from having this happen to you by using the first 3.5 years of med school to get good at collecting feedback and developing self-awareness, and by sincerely working to be a strong performer welcome on a team.
Question is, what's the threshold for not ranking someone? You mean someone who's socially awkward? I'd say I came across one every 2-3 interviews. But if you mean just looking for small things in a candidate, hmmmm.
 
Question is, what's the threshold for not ranking someone? You mean someone who's socially awkward? I'd say I came across one every 2-3 interviews. But if you mean just looking for small things in a candidate, hmmmm.

People we didn’t rank generally were known comodities with serious academic issues or known toxic personalities.
 
Awkward / nervous / uncomfortable is expected. My experience was that residencies went way out of their way to make candidates feel welcome and celebrated and reassured. (Treasure that feeling, people, make it help you survive the next 3 years.)

One thing folks might not realize is that due to sheer overwhelming app volume, your app gets reviewed pretty well to get an interview out of a pile of thousands, but then at the interview your app gets reviewed again, to death, by the relatively fresh eyes of a gang of strongly opinionated people, who weeks/months later might be in the room where you're compared head to head with every other interviewee, to make the rank list. In other words, app review keeps going and going until rank lists are due.

Every interviewer will forever overreact to how a bad resident got through and will bring their own biases and preferences to bear. As will you, when you're in their shoes.

Every year at least one candidate behaves so badly, their med school dean gets a WTF call.

Ways in which you might fail to "get the job done" at an interview, all of which I've seen multiple times:
- verbally or physically disrespect anybody, from the volunteer hospital receptionist, to the spouse of another candidate at the social
- forget to learn anything about the program thus can't answer "why us?"
- forget to learn how to answer the question "why FM?"
- forget to have an answer for anomalies in your app, or not even know they're anomalies
- hit on somebody (anybody)
- forget to smile / say thank you / use kindergarten rules
- forget to express enthusiasm for a clearly emphasized aspect of the program
(here? show no interest in learning Spanish, or make a face at the idea of delivering lots of babies)​
- don't realize it's a job interview
- opine about politics or religion
- fail to notice and apologize after being painfully oblivious, such as when you trip somebody or you don't hold the door for the people behind you

It's pretty darned obvious when somebody is interviewing with us for literally no reason other than being close to home (major cities 1-2 hrs away).

It's obvious when somebody thinks we're a **** program and they seriously hope they don't match here. Why are you bothering to apply to programs with names that don't start with a "U" my friend.

Hope this helps.
 
Awkward / nervous / uncomfortable is expected. My experience was that residencies went way out of their way to make candidates feel welcome and celebrated and reassured. (Treasure that feeling, people, make it help you survive the next 3 years.)

One thing folks might not realize is that due to sheer overwhelming app volume, your app gets reviewed pretty well to get an interview out of a pile of thousands, but then at the interview your app gets reviewed again, to death, by the relatively fresh eyes of a gang of strongly opinionated people, who weeks/months later might be in the room where you're compared head to head with every other interviewee, to make the rank list. In other words, app review keeps going and going until rank lists are due.

Every interviewer will forever overreact to how a bad resident got through and will bring their own biases and preferences to bear. As will you, when you're in their shoes.

Every year at least one candidate behaves so badly, their med school dean gets a WTF call.

Ways in which you might fail to "get the job done" at an interview, all of which I've seen multiple times:
- verbally or physically disrespect anybody, from the volunteer hospital receptionist, to the spouse of another candidate at the social
- forget to learn anything about the program thus can't answer "why us?"
- forget to learn how to answer the question "why FM?"
- forget to have an answer for anomalies in your app, or not even know they're anomalies
- hit on somebody (anybody)
- forget to smile / say thank you / use kindergarten rules
- forget to express enthusiasm for a clearly emphasized aspect of the program
(here? show no interest in learning Spanish, or make a face at the idea of delivering lots of babies)​
- don't realize it's a job interview
- opine about politics or religion
- fail to notice and apologize after being painfully oblivious, such as when you trip somebody or you don't hold the door for the people behind you

It's pretty darned obvious when somebody is interviewing with us for literally no reason other than being close to home (major cities 1-2 hrs away).

It's obvious when somebody thinks we're a **** program and they seriously hope they don't match here. Why are you bothering to apply to programs with names that don't start with a "U" my friend.

Hope this helps.

This is a great list. What about, people who are backing up? How do you tell and how do you rank those people, assuming they have a great app.
 
People we didn’t rank generally were known comodities with serious academic issues or known toxic personalities.
Why were they invited if they had major academic issues?
 
true, what sort of academic flaws?

Multiple board and class failures, Sub-I’s with poor performance etc.

We also blacklisted a few for concerning behavior at interviews and I think I even remember seeing a letter from one student’s school which shared concerns and landed that person on the DNR list.
 
Top