What's the worst thing that can happen if a DO impersonates an MD?

[Oluedo]

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[NeuroLAX]

Allow me to pose a legitimate question to the allo students in this thread:

If the full gamut of osteopathic manipulative treatments went through intense scientific scrutiny to the point that all invalid treatments were identified and deleted/renounced from history, would you be opposed to learning those treatments that have been proven to be effective in your current curriculum?

I ask simply out of curiosity. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Oluedo]

Not according to the minorities I talk to on a regular basis. Because if he was, then they wouldn't have any basis to various claims they love to make.

You are stupid.

 

[CDI]

You are stupid.

You didn't qualify for an Obamaphone did you?

 

[shan564]

This is a silly discussion. Most people agree that DO training is equivalent to MD training. The bias against DOs, in my opinion, is primarily due to the belief (correct or incorrect) that DO schools are less competitive and usually attract less competitive students. To a larger extent, you'll see a similar bias against Caribbean grads. I think that's why you'll see at least as many DOs in psychiatry (not related to OMM at all) than in orthopedics (highly related to OMM) - the more competitive specialties tend to be a bit pickier about these sorts of things.

 

[shan564]

Allow me to pose a legitimate question to the allo students in this thread:

If the full gamut of osteopathic manipulative treatments went through intense scientific scrutiny to the point that all invalid treatments were identified and deleted/renounced from history, would you be opposed to learning those treatments that have been proven to be effective in your current curriculum?

I ask simply out of curiosity. Nothing more, nothing less.

I'm already open to learning OMM techniques, since many of my respected DO colleagues seem to believe that they work. The only reason why I haven't done it yet is because I'm going into psychiatry.

 

[rog411]

You didn't qualify for an Obamaphone did you?

👍

 

[NeuroLAX]

I'm already open to learning OMM techniques, since many of my respected DO colleagues seem to believe that they work. The only reason why I haven't done it yet is because I'm going into psychiatry.

Fair enough and understandable in the field of psychiatry. I respect your honesty. I hope more people respond to my question. I'm genuinely curious.

 

[rog411]

Allow me to pose a legitimate question to the allo students in this thread:

If the full gamut of osteopathic manipulative treatments went through intense scientific scrutiny to the point that all invalid treatments were identified and deleted/renounced from history, would you be opposed to learning those treatments that have been proven to be effective in your current curriculum?

I ask simply out of curiosity. Nothing more, nothing less.

If they are proven to be effective, then of course I am open to learning them. That would be a no brainer.

 

[CDI]

This is a silly discussion. Most people agree that DO training is equivalent to MD training. The bias against DOs, in my opinion, is primarily due to the belief (correct or incorrect) that DO schools are less competitive and usually attract less competitive students. To a larger extent, you'll see a similar bias against Caribbean grads. I think that's why you'll see at least as many DOs in psychiatry (not related to OMM at all) than in orthopedics (highly related to OMM) - the more competitive specialties tend to be a bit pickier about these sorts of things.

Okay, no one chooses Caribbean MD over US MD. So that's not completely fair. By default that Caribbean MD is a second tier student and knows very well that is the case.

The US DO may in fact have chosen the DO route, which is respectable. They don't deserve any bias at all, IMO.

The few who get into DO (post MD app cycles) and then try to hide that they are a DO, are the ones giving it a bad name.

 

[WompyWomperton]

This is a silly discussion. Most people agree that DO training is equivalent to MD training. The bias against DOs, in my opinion, is primarily due to the belief (correct or incorrect) that DO schools are less competitive and usually attract less competitive students. To a larger extent, you'll see a similar bias against Caribbean grads. I think that's why you'll see at least as many DOs in psychiatry (not related to OMM at all) than in orthopedics (highly related to OMM) - the more competitive specialties tend to be a bit pickier about these sorts of things.

It's not a belief, look at the numbers (average gpa, MCAT, etc. of matriculants). Also, the pass rate for all 3 Step exams is (according to Wikipedia) higher in Allopathic schools.

 

[CDI]

Allow me to pose a legitimate question to the allo students in this thread:

If the full gamut of osteopathic manipulative treatments went through intense scientific scrutiny to the point that all invalid treatments were identified and deleted/renounced from history, would you be opposed to learning those treatments that have been proven to be effective in your current curriculum?

I ask simply out of curiosity. Nothing more, nothing less.

I'd definitely give it a look.

 

[rog411]

Okay, no one chooses Caribbean MD over US MD. So that's not completely fair. By default that Caribbean MD is a second tier student and knows very well that is the case.

The US DO may in fact have chosen the DO route, which is respectable. They don't deserve any bias at all, IMO.

The few who get into DO (post MD app cycles) and then try to hide that they are a DO, are the ones giving it a bad name.

True. no one chooses carib MD over US MD, but many people choose Carib MD over DO...

 

[CDI]

It's not a belief, look at the numbers (average gpa, MCAT, etc. of matriculants). Also, the pass rate for all 3 Step exams is (according to Wikipedia) higher in Allopathic schools.

Maneuvers and COMLEX though.

 

[NeuroLAX]

I'd definitely give it a look.

I appreciate your response. But would you object to having it as part of your curriculum (i.e. requiring you to learn it)?

 

[CDI]

True. no one chooses carib MD over US MD, but many people choose Carib MD over DO...

I know someone who chose non-Carib MD over US MD/DO/Carib. That was crazy to me.

 

[CDI]

I appreciate your response. But would you object to having it as part of your curriculum (i.e. requiring you to learn it)?

I wouldn't object at all. Hell, I wish yoga, meditation, and proper exercise technique was a part of my curriculum too. At least those have proven to work for a couple thousands of years too. Those forms of lifestyle adaptations seem to have a better effect than anything I've seen in allopathic medicine over the long run. And the way PCP is headed, better learn some preventive **** fast.

 

[rog411]

I know someone who chose non-Carib MD over US MD/DO/Carib DO. That was crazy to me.

what do you mean by non-Carib MD? polish MD or something?

 

[NeuroLAX]

what do you mean by non-Carib MD? polish MD or something?

Better question to ask is what the hell is a Carib DO? 😕

 

[WompyWomperton]

Better question to ask is what the hell is a Carib DO? 😕

Unemployed.

Honestly, the way things are going, anyone who studies outside the US isn't getting back in for a residency anytime soon.

 

[CDI]

what do you mean by non-Carib MD? polish MD or something?

Sorry, should have said MBBS instead of non-Carib MD. Doxylamine succinate is kicking in and I can't think straight.

Although, I do know of a doctor (who is an older/nearly retired nephrologist) who went the Italian MD route instead of the US MD. Was a long time ago though.

 

[CDI]

Better question to ask is what the hell is a Carib DO? 😕

Wow, edited, this stuff really is strong. Better I probably pass out now while I'm behind...

 

[shan564]

Okay, no one chooses Caribbean MD over US MD. So that's not completely fair. By default that Caribbean MD is a second tier student and knows very well that is the case.

The US DO may in fact have chosen the DO route, which is respectable. They don't deserve any bias at all, IMO.

The few who get into DO (post MD app cycles) and then try to hide that they are a DO, are the ones giving it a bad name.

I didn't say that they deserve the bias or that DOs are automatically inferior to MDs. Just that there is a perception as such, and that's due to the averages (as Wompy mentioned in the next post). As I said before, the bias is much more evident against Caribbean MDs than against US DOs, since US DOs are less likely to be inferior students. If a DO applies to orthopedics or PM&R with a 250 on both Steps, I think it'd be fair to assume that he/she went to DO school because their training is more suited for orthopedics or PM&R. If a DO applies to pathology or psychiatry with a 200 on both Steps, I think it'd be fair to suspect that they went to DO school because it's less competitive, since DO schools aren't known to be stronger in pathology or psychiatry. That said, I'm sure that there are plenty of great DOs in pathology and psychiatry... I interviewed with a PD at a top institution in psych who was a DO.

I should qualify this statement by saying that I also went overseas for med school, partially due to a low undergrad GPA. I was able to get into Australia because my MCAT was good (they care more about the MCAT than the GPA), so I didn't face much bias when I was going through residency interviews. But I was fully expecting some discrimination, and I think it's perfectly reasonable for them to prefer a candidate who went to a school that's perceived as more competitive... because if all else is equal, it's fair to give preference to a guy who has been a good student for 8 years over a guy who has been a good student for 4 years (i.e. me).

It's not a belief, look at the numbers (average gpa, MCAT, etc. of matriculants). Also, the pass rate for all 3 Step exams is (according to Wikipedia) higher in Allopathic schools.

Even if it's true, it's still a belief. That's why I qualified my statement by saying "belief (correct or incorrect)."

 

[NeuroLAX]

Wow, edited, this stuff really is strong. Better I probably pass out now while I'm behind...

It's all good.

 

[Druggernaut]

Nothing at all. You're able to fit more stuff into 4 years. It's kind of like magic.

Allopaths tend to be on the slower side and need to revise more of the same stuff I guess.

I probably shouldn't even open this can of worms in this thread that's gone on for far too long, but my DO program starts earlier, ends later, and has no spring breaks during the first two years when compared with any MD program that I'm aware of. It's not magic to fit in an hour of OMM lecture and and hour and a half of lab time per week when you're doing that.

It'll be funny if you ever try to practice overseas and tell someone you have a "Doctorate of Medicine" then show them your credentials and they look at you like you're from Mars.

I agree that you'd be out of line trying to get credentialed in a foreign country and telling them you're a medical doctor when you hand in your paperwork, but the differences in overseas practice rights are overblown on SDN. American MDs are accepted for full practice rights in something like 5-10 more countries than DOs, most of which nobody's going to want to go to anyway.

To answer the actual question of the thread- the only thing that happens when a DO impersonates an MD is that the DO proves that MD > DO. 😀

Nope. Go ahead and read the thread before posting.

 

[CDI]

I probably shouldn't even open this can of worms in this thread that's gone on for far too long, but my DO program starts earlier, ends later, and has no spring breaks during the first two years when compared with any MD program that I'm aware of. It's not magic to fit in an hour of OMM lecture and and hour and a half of lab time per week when you're doing that.

I agree that you'd be out of line trying to get credentialed in a foreign country and telling them you're a medical doctor when you hand in your paperwork, but the differences in overseas practice rights are overblown on SDN. American MDs are accepted for full practice rights in something like 5-10 more countries than DOs, most of which nobody's going to want to go to anyway.

[insert slow clap]

 

[WompyWomperton]

I agree that you'd be out of line trying to get credentialed in a foreign country and telling them you're a medical doctor when you hand in your paperwork, but the differences in overseas practice rights are overblown on SDN. American MDs are accepted for full practice rights in something like 5-10 more countries than DOs, most of which nobody's going to want to go to anyway.

 

[GUH]

While we're at it, we should just call all nurses, PAs, MDs, and DOs "medicine people."

Can we please use that title instead?

I can see it now outside my office ten years from now:

GUH, Medicine Man

I'll be a Medicine Man practicing medicine, man.

F*&^%in' awesome. Unless the ND's already have exclusive rights to the term "medicine people".

 

[Tommyguns89]

Rofl, if the coffee had been too cold she would have sued for bad customer service

There is actually an entire documentary dedicated to the fact that, that lawsuit wasnt as outrageous as it seems. It is called "Hot Coffe" and is very good.

I am biased because I did a semester of law school and loved torts(for reasons similar to why I am pursuing medicine, its one of the few areas of law where you can have a direct positive impact on a person's life in light of a bad situation) but a lot of what you hear about frivolous law suits is the result of a corporate campaign for tort reform. Both sides have decent arguments, but the hot coffee case has been so misrepresented by the media, it is pretty scary.

Just thought I would put my .02 in, hope I didnt offend anyone.

 

[CDI]

There is actually an entire documentary dedicated to the fact that, that lawsuit wasnt as outrageous as it seems. It is called "Hot Coffe" and is very good.

I am biased because I did a semester of law school and loved torts(for reasons similar to why I am pursuing medicine, its one of the few areas of law where you can have a direct positive impact on a person's life in light of a bad situation) but a lot of what you hear about frivolous law suits is the result of a corporate campaign for tort reform. Both sides have decent arguments, but the hot coffee case has been so misrepresented by the media, it is pretty scary.

Just thought I would put my .02 in, hope I didnt offend anyone.

You offended me.

 

[touchpause13]

There is actually an entire documentary dedicated to the fact that, that lawsuit wasnt as outrageous as it seems. It is called "Hot Coffe" and is very good.

I am biased because I did a semester of law school and loved torts(for reasons similar to why I am pursuing medicine, its one of the few areas of law where you can have a direct positive impact on a person's life in light of a bad situation) but a lot of what you hear about frivolous law suits is the result of a corporate campaign for tort reform. Both sides have decent arguments, but the hot coffee case has been so misrepresented by the media, it is pretty scary.

Just thought I would put my .02 in, hope I didnt offend anyone.

I just watched that documentary. I realllly liked it. If your a big documentary fan I would recommend The Invisible War. It has some cross overs with hot coffee and is just excellent. Hard to watch at times, but excellent all the same

Sent from my SCH-I405 using SDN Mobile

 

[touchpause13]

Double post sawy
Sent from my SCH-I405 using SDN Mobile

 

[Procyon]

Can we please use that title instead?

I can see it now outside my office ten years from now:

GUH, Medicine Man

I'll be a Medicine Man practicing medicine, man.

F*&^%in' awesome. Unless the ND's already have exclusive rights to the term "medicine people".

I kind of want my title to be Medicine Man, too.

 

[docnotsopc]

Patients will come to you expecting real medicine and be completely shocked and disappointed when all you can do is crack them.

Makes zero sense unless that DO specializes in OMM. How many DOs do you come in contact with who actually use OMM on patients other than musculoskeletal injuries? Its very very rare that a DO is stupid enough to actually try OMM on a patient in the ICU etc. (in that case, that DO drank WAAAY too much of the kool-aid)

You do realize that only a small % of DOs actually use OMM right? Most of those few only use OMM for musculoskeletal injuries.

I forgot that medications, ultrasound, x-rays, CT scans, endoscopies, etc are not real medicine. If this is the case, than ya you caught us

 

[DrBowtie]

Less trolling, more discussion about the lawsuit I posted 🙂

 

[JGimpel]

IN! IN! IN! IN! IN! IN!

 

[tiedyeddog]

Interesting case:
https://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F2/708/708.F2d.1466.81-5343.html

Brandwein vs. California medical Board

"Dr. Brandwein claimed that the regulation requiring osteopaths to display the title D.O. outside their office is a violation of equal protection because the Medical Board has no comparable regulation. The district court dismissed this claim without discussion. Since members of the public may assume that all physicians hold an M.D. degree, the state, as suggested above, has an interest in making sure that they are informed of a physician's actual educational background. Therefore, the regulation clearly appears to satisfy the rational relation test"

I would guess in most states if you were reported for actively representing yourself as a MD when you were a DO (i.e, a patient asks you directly and you say "I am an M.D.") most state's medical boards would come down on you. This is a misrepresentation of your degree (even if both degrees grant you same practicing rights, they are indeed different and are granted by different governing bodies). My question is, why would anyone honestly want to do this? To practice in other countries where D.O.'s are typically not granted licenses?

 

[rog411]

Nope. Go ahead and read the thread before posting.

I did read the thread, it sounds like you didn't understand what I meant. If a DO is impersonating an MD that means that the DO thinks there is some benefit to having an MD over a DO. Why would someone impersonate a lesser, or even equal degree?

 

[JP2740]

This is a silly discussion. Most people agree that DO training is equivalent to MD training. The bias against DOs, in my opinion, is primarily due to the belief (correct or incorrect) that DO schools are less competitive and usually attract less competitive students. To a larger extent, you'll see a similar bias against Caribbean grads. I think that's why you'll see at least as many DOs in psychiatry (not related to OMM at all) than in orthopedics (highly related to OMM) - the more competitive specialties tend to be a bit pickier about these sorts of things.

DO schools are not less competitive? 😕 I guess all my friends who went that route chose to go there because they like OMM? Not according to everyone I know who went to a DO school.

 

[mvenus929]

Allow me to pose a legitimate question to the allo students in this thread:

If the full gamut of osteopathic manipulative treatments went through intense scientific scrutiny to the point that all invalid treatments were identified and deleted/renounced from history, would you be opposed to learning those treatments that have been proven to be effective in your current curriculum?

I ask simply out of curiosity. Nothing more, nothing less.

I wouldn't be opposed to it. I've learned a couple techniques (which were backed up by the day I spent in physical therapy) that have been personally useful. If something helps the patient and doesn't cause harm, I'm not at all opposed to learning it.

I've heard rumors that the DO and MD residencies are going to combine under one governing body here in the next few years. If that is the case, then it really shouldn't matter which degree you graduate with, but which residency program you end up doing.

 

[NeuroLAX]

I wouldn't be opposed to it. I've learned a couple techniques (which were backed up by the day I spent in physical therapy) that have been personally useful. If something helps the patient and doesn't cause harm, I'm not at all opposed to learning it.

I've heard rumors that the DO and MD residencies are going to combine under one governing body here in the next few years. If that is the case, then it really shouldn't matter which degree you graduate with, but which residency program you end up doing.

I appreciate your response. So far not one person has expressed concern about learning effective OMT. Fantastic!

I am curious to know how allopathic students will be treated as far as applying to the formerly AOA-only programs. For example, will allopathic students be required to demonstrate some degree of competence in OMM in order to be eligible for these programs? I'm also curious to know what effect that will have on future allopathic curricula, if it affects them at all. A lot of interesting changes are coming up in the next few years, so only time will tell how the details will be ironed out.

 

[harnabra01]

wouldn't it depend on the damage? why would this issue be in front of a judge in the first place?

even if "fraud" was part of the case, it wouldnt logically fall under the same verdict anyway right?

 

[mvenus929]

I appreciate your response. So far not one person has expressed concern about learning effective OMT. Fantastic!

I am curious to know how allopathic students will be treated as far as applying to the formerly AOA-only programs. For example, will allopathic students be required to demonstrate some degree of competence in OMM in order to be eligible for these programs? I'm also curious to know what effect that will have on future allopathic curricula, if it affects them at all. A lot of interesting changes are coming up in the next few years, so only time will tell how the details will be ironed out.

There's a number of programs in my state that are both AOA and ACGME certified, particularly the family medicine programs. I went to a conference a couple years ago promoting all the FM programs, and it seemed that allopathic students who went to those residencies were taught some OMM as part of their weekly didactic sessions. On the larger scale, I'm not sure what it would mean, but it will certainly be interesting to see where things end up.

 

[NeuroLAX]

There's a number of programs in my state that are both AOA and ACGME certified, particularly the family medicine programs. I went to a conference a couple years ago promoting all the FM programs, and it seemed that allopathic students who went to those residencies were taught some OMM as part of their weekly didactic sessions. On the larger scale, I'm not sure what it would mean, but it will certainly be interesting to see where things end up.

Interesting. I wasn't aware of exactly how dual-accredidation programs are structured. It's nice to know that they aren't just teaching it to the DO residents.

There is a rumor going around the Osteopathic forum that the merger (or whatever term you wish to use) might be moved back a few extra years.

 

[Dharma]

these threads....