What's Wrong With Research in Psychiatry?

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skee lo

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Picked this up from an excellent blog, thelastpsychiatrist.com. This guy is the clearest thinker I've ever read on the subject of psychiatry. He should be required reading for all medical students.

What's Wrong With Research In Psychiatry?


Dynastic:

There are no independent psychiatric researchers. Young academics are mentored by older academics; this isn't optional, for either person. In virtually no circumstance do they study something entirely of their own choosing, it is either an outgrowth of the mentors' research, or is the mentors' research.

Distant from reality:

Young academics almost never work outside of the university. Theirs is all selection bias. The only patients they see are the ones the university gives them: either Medicaid/indigent on the inpatient unit, or patients of the disposition to want to be involved in clinical trials. Academics are like government economists: "we haven't had two consecutive quarters of declining GDP, so we're not in a recession." Regular psychiatrists are the management at Wal Mart: "I'm not sure what this is called, but no one is buying anything."

Groupthink:

Academic psychiatrists are nearly all on the same page, and refer to one another as if they have a relationship, even when they've never met. ("Chuck Nemeroff is doing some good work on...") It's pointless to list the other characteristics of groupthink here, except to highlight one: the purpose of groupthink is not to promote an ideology, but self-preservation, and this is unconscious. They don't realize that their lives are devoted to preserving the group, yet young researchers are brought on who connect with the group; peer reviewers-- and journal editors-- come from the group; grant reviewers, and NIMH people themselves came from, and support the group.

An example of groupthink preservation is the referencing of studies. Academics support their propositions with previous studies; however, no one checks the accuracy of these studies. No one has the time, and the group necessarily must trust the work of others in the group. Even if an error were to be found, it would be described as an isolated error. A cursory stroll through this site alone suggests just how "isolated" such errors really are.

Financially isolated:

Medicine is a market. Buyers and sellers.

Academics make a salary, but their survival at university depends on the grants they can bring in. That means their market, their customers, are funding agencies, not patients. It doesn't mean they don't care about patients, it means that the service they provide is nuanced and directed towards Pharma or the NIH.

If the funding agencies are stacked with people who like antiepileptics for bipolar; if the grant goes to Pfizer who is looking to create a bipolar indication, etc, etc, that's the research that can be expected. I'm not even worried that the results will be... predestined. I'm worried that such pressures direct what kind of research, what kind of questions get asked, at all.

Too much data

We're busy talking about bias and hidden results and skewed statistics and nonsense. So we call for more studies, as if they will somehow be better studies, despite no other structural changes being made. The reality is that we have information inflation: new studies have less value because they get lost; and old studies completely disappear, as if somehow their validity is temporal.

There are a quadrillion studies already conducted in psychiatry. There is plenty of data that can be analyzed, meta-analyzed, pooled, parsed. If all current research ground to an immediate halt, and researchers just looked back at what we already have, we would save billions of dollars in future research and future bad treatments, and we would learn so much.

Outcomes Research Is Purposefully Avoided, or Ignored:

You might think in a field with nothing but outcome studies (e.g. Prozac vs. placebo) I might not be able to make this claim, but I do.

Most studies are short term. The few long term studies that exist (e.g. Depakote for maintenance) are either equivocal (e.g. Depakote for maintenance) or show no efficacy (e.g. Depakote for maintenance.) And they are ignored.

But these outcomes are distractions. The question isn't is Depakote good for maintenance bipolar. The question is, is there any value to the diagnosis of bipolar? In other words, if you called it anxiety, or personality disorder, or anything else, and then treated them ad lib, would the outcome be different? Is there value to the DSM? You might argue the diagnosis leads us to the treatment, but in most cases, meds are used across all diagnoses, and more often than not a diagnosis is created to justify the medication.

Are hospitals valuable? You would think that by now we'd have a clear answer to this, the most expensive of maneuvers. I can say, however, that reducing the length of stay from several months to 5-7 days has not affected the suicide rate. I'm not saying they are or are not valuable, I am saying that I don't know-- and that's the problem. It is 2008 and there are more studies on restless leg syndrome then there are on hospital vs. placebo. You know why? See above.

Are one hour sessions associated with better outcomes than 2 minute med checks? I know 2 minute med checks sound bad, what I want to know is if they are actually bad. Higher suicide rates? More days absent from work? More divorce? More sadness?

The system is completely ad hoc, with each party yelling loudly to protect their fiefdom. It allows everyone to declare themselves an expert without having to prove it. Tell a Depakote academic you're suspicious about the utility of the drug, and he won't tell you you're wrong, he will tell you you don't understand. Try it. He will evade the existing data ("not enough people," "studies are difficult to conduct," "we know from clinical experience," "more work is needed") and rely on appeal to authority. Appeal to authority is the signal you're being bull****ted.

Outcomes research will never be conducted in psychiatry because its existence depends on not knowing the answers. It will eventually be conducted on psychiatry. You can't tell you're an idiot, someone has to tell you.

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I love his site, & while I do occasionally (though rarely) disagree with the Last Psychiatrist, I respect the guy's intellectual honesty.

The guy never mentions his name on his site but I believe I know how the guy is though he never confirmed it when I asked him (nor did he deny it).

I agree with the guy on several of the things he mentioned. However what he did mention is also true in several of the fields of medicine aside from Psychiatry.

I wanted to point this out because several critics of psychiatry point out problems in the field that are actually problems in all fields of medicine. E.g. there was a recent media attack on SSRIs, noting how they are not much more effective than placebo. Pretty much all the problems that were pointed out in SSRI research are also true of non-psychiatric meds, so then why are psyche meds getting the shaft but those other meds aren't?

Of course that still means that we as psychiatrists should be on top of the problems in our own field & do what we can improve them, but that also means that we should not get selectively blamed for problems that are occurring in the entire field of medicine.

Getting back to the Last Psychiatrist--I agree with the guy in this area. We got to factor things like this when reading research articles.

Outcomes research will never be conducted in psychiatry because its existence depends on not knowing the answers. It will eventually be conducted on psychiatry.

Sad but true.

Every 10 years, when we look back at what we did, we find mistakes. Wouldn't it be better if we found those mistakes within our own field & stopped them instead of having to go through the humiliation of having a 3rd party find it out for us with our pants down?
 
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The article has a valid complaint. The best answer to this is to include more research teaching in psychiatric residency... especially statistics and study methods. With more residents (future attendings) knowing how to criticize a study, we'll see less BS in the literature.
 
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Just wanted to point out that I noticed 2 out of 2 articles I read from Skee Lo point out negative aspects in psychiatry--one of which pretty much judged all psychiatrists as bad for the actions of 1 psychiatrist.

So I checked Skee Lo's other posts--& this person does mention that he/she does not like psychiatry. That's his/her choice. However several of the posts give unfair criticism (e.g. blaming the entire field for the fault of 1), are laden with insults etc.

We've had our share of trollers & such.

Examples of posts from this person...(you can check them out for yourself by clicking onto Skee Lo's username)

Psychiatry hits a new low

Psychiatry really needs to die.

In response to someone who's username is Depakote....
I doubt that there is any point in arguing with someone who names himself after one of the most offensive substances that has ever been administered in the name of medical treatment

Also judging that this person has few posts & almost all of them try to take a stab at psychiatry--I think this person should be red flagged.

Now, ahem, I have criticized our own field from time to time--check out my posts, all in the spirit of improving our field & patient care & making sure that we do not fall into the problems we get criticized for by our critics. I also do not mind outsiders criticizing the field so long as the arguments are factual, they are open to hearing rebuttals, & do not use cognitive distortions to further or defend their argument (such as blaming an entire field for the fault of 1).

However--anti-psychiatrist firebrands & trolls-they deserve the boot.

And getting back to the Last Psychiatrist--I'm pretty certain I know who the guy is. I don't post his name because I figure if he wanted it out in the public he'd do it himself. The guy is a practicing psychiatrist that I'm sure wouldn't share Skee lo's opinion that "psychiatry" as a field needs to die.

The Last Psychiatrist guy's arguments are to make psychiatrists critically self evaluate our own field for the betterment of that field.
 
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Yeah, this guy was in pre-allo shilling his anti-psychiatry line a few days ago without any hard facts. This thread, though, is opening up a discussion and I think we have to give Skee Lo the benefit of the doubt that, although highly unlikely, he has decided he wants to foster intellectual conversation rather than more mindless pap.

It just somehow doesn't seem right to ban someone for what they said in the past -- maybe he was having a bad day and he should have the chance to show he's an adult.
 
I'm not advocating somone be banned because they have an anti-psychiatry opinion & discuss it. In fact IMHO we need to address questions the anti-psychiatry movement sometimes brings up.

I'm am though advocating banning anyone--anti-psychiatry or not that uses cognitive distortions & when people give counter arguments, the guy gives sarcastic "whatever" type comments back. That doesn't lead to a dialogue--by that point it just becomes drum beating & trying to talk over the other person.
 
I'm not advocating somone be banned because they have an anti-psychiatry opinion & discuss it. In fact IMHO we need to address questions the anti-psychiatry movement sometimes brings up.

I'm am though advocating banning anyone--anti-psychiatry or not that uses cognitive distortions & when people give counter arguments, the guy gives sarcastic "whatever" type comments back. That doesn't lead to a dialogue--by that point it just becomes drum beating & trying to talk over the other person.

I hear you and couldn't agree more, but the admins won't ban anyone just for being an idiot -- only if they're explicitly offensive. I suppose what qualifies as the latter is open to interpretation...
 
It is 2008 and there are more studies on restless leg syndrome then there are on hospital vs. placebo. .

.

there's alot we still need to learn about RLS, especially how to best manage augmentation.

A lot of your criticisms are true of research in other specialties (dynastic, financially isolated)
 
I'm am though advocating banning anyone--anti-psychiatry or not that uses cognitive distortions & when people give counter arguments, the guy gives sarcastic "whatever" type comments back. That doesn't lead to a dialogue--by that point it just becomes drum beating & trying to talk over the other person.

I also don't think it's intellectually honest to go back and edit one's post after someone else has posted an objection to it. And this person has done that repeatedly as well from what I can see.
 
T.L.P. is a good read.

I think the two biggest problems with Psychiatric research are:

1. Poor research design, which includes select bias, poor generalizability, and lack of proper outcome studies. Unfortunately people are too quick to gloss over the design and just look at the findings.

2. Funding. Sadly much of it is coming from Big Pharma, and this can sometimes skew objectivity, whether it is designing a study to favor one med over another in subtle and/or not so subtle ways, or having the "future funding" carrot get dangled out there.
 
I got chased off the psychiatry board not that long ago so I've kept my posting here to a minimum since, but figured I'd give it another try.

Though I'm convinced the OP is a troll since some of their other posts have been too ludicrous for me to conclude otherwise, this is actually an interesting post with some good points.

However, with the possible exception of the last point - I think every problem mentioned is true across all branches of medicine. Indeed, probably across almost all science. The mentor system is flawed in many ways. I haven't seen any better alternatives presented though. At least not ones that won't further increase the amount of junk data out there.

Distance from reality - i.e ivory-towerish. Every field is guilty of this. Personally, I actually think psychiatry is better about it than many other areas, since the psych population is generally less "pure" and a lower SES population than you'll see in other areas. Research on inpatient schizophrenics with no comorbid conditions would never get past the recruitment phase. It'd make an interesting case study if you could ever actually find one though;) Yet schizophrenic patients are frequently not allowed anywhere near other medical research.

Groupthink - Again, not sure how this is specifically relevant to psychiatry. True across all fields, medicine or not.

Financially isolated - Yup. Money makes the world go round, not just psychiatry. It sucks, but its just a fact of life. It does have the advantage that medicine is not going to get absolutely nailed to the floor by budget cuts. Sure NIH grants are a tough market right now, but compared to say, an art history department that can't even sustain itself anymore, I'll be happy to deal with NIH. Here in FL, budget cuts at state schools are creating serious problems for many departments, that can't even offer necessary courses anymore. Surely enough, the departments bringing in grant dollars are barely getting touched.

Too much data - This is where it starts to get interesting. I'm a firm believer that there is no such thing - data itself is always a good thing, its just what people do with it that creates problems. At the same time, there is lots of junk that still gets published, and not nearly enough caution is used in interpreting it. Too little consideration for methodology. Where is the balancing point? I won't hazard a guess.

Outcomes research - This is actually a somewhat reasonable point. I feel like the focal point of lots of research is completely off-kilter. At some point the "Why?" question that is supposed to drive scientists got lost. Everyone is trying for the next big thing, so everything gets a surface look. Delving deeper takes many years, but it means you aren't working on the next big thing. Again, I'm not sure the balancing point is.
 
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And you Ollie (at least from your 1 post) have given a very rational & reasonable criticism.

This is the type of thing that we on this board should encourage.

I don't know if Skee lo is legit or not but judging from all his posts, I think he may have been disasatisfied with his own experiences with psychiatry in the past & is upset about it. I'm thinking he may be legit because he admits to being busted for a misdemeanor & is asking for advice (if he were an intended troller I don't think he'd do that). I gave a very long response post to him in the pre-allo section.
 
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Too much data - This is where it starts to get interesting. I'm a firm believer that there is no such thing - data itself is always a good thing, its just what people do with it that creates problems. At the same time, there is lots of junk that still gets published, and not nearly enough caution is used in interpreting it. Too little consideration for methodology. Where is the balancing point? I won't hazard a guess.

"Junk in, Junk out"...always a problem in research, though I think some of it gets overlooked because it isn't as sexy to talk about design and generalizability in the face of some juicy outcome findings.
 
Yeah, this guy was in pre-allo shilling his anti-psychiatry line a few days ago without any hard facts. This thread, though, is opening up a discussion and I think we have to give Skee Lo the benefit of the doubt that, although highly unlikely, he has decided he wants to foster intellectual conversation rather than more mindless pap.

It just somehow doesn't seem right to ban someone for what they said in the past -- maybe he was having a bad day and he should have the chance to show he's an adult.

OP is definitely a troll - he's been all over the place primarily bashing psych. Or, well, I guess "troll" would mean he's being abrasive for being abrasive's sake, so it's more accurate to say he has a vendetta based on his own experience. He's completely close-minded to discussion. At one point he said child psychiatrists should get the death penalty. :rolleyes:

That is an interesting site, though it's not surprising that the OP hasn't participated in the following discussion.
 
"Junk in, Junk out"...always a problem in research, though I think some of it gets overlooked because it isn't as sexy to talk about design and generalizability in the face of some juicy outcome findings.

True, but the issue is figuring out when is data actually garbage? In my opinion, its quite rare - situations in which we can reasonably assume that the forms were filled out wrong, entered wrong, etc. obviously. Is a study without tight experimental control garbage? Not necessarily, the data is just telling us something different. In many cases, I think experimental control is actually TOO tight and done at the expense of ecological validity. We need tightly controlled studies to show that the theories are there, but we also need "looser" studies that more accurately depict real-world utility. Efficacy vs. effectiveness and all.

The real problem is, as you said, is that people often ignore the methods. In some cases because they don't understand them (especially when reading in an area outside your own), in some cases for no good reason at all. A bigger problem is many journals seem to even encourage this practice. A few in particular I'm thinking of have moved the "methods" section to follow the conclusion, in smaller print, as though its completely irrelevant. It seems most common in neuroscience journals, at least in my experience. What percentage of readers do you think actually go through the methods section? I bet its alot lower than a more traditionally formatted journal.

Then we have journals like Nature - certainly one of, if not THE most prestigious place to publish, that seems to actively encourage people to overstate their results. Every article reads like they just discovered a cure for all of humankinds suffering. And that's not to diminish the quality of studies there...obviously this is often some of the best research in the field. People are just encouraged to spin things in a way that I think far oversteps the bounds of responsible science. That isn't the fault of the data - data is just information. Its up the authors and readers to decide what it means. That includes being cautious and clear as to what your methodology is actually capable of uncovering.
 
Every single assertion made by the last psychiatrist is specious, incomplete, adolescent, or false. I'm not going to waste my time refuting them, especially since his central point is the concluding one:


Outcomes research will never be conducted in psychiatry because its existence depends on not knowing the answers. It will eventually be conducted on psychiatry. You can't tell you're an idiot, someone has to tell you.


There are flaws in psychiatry. For example, the field is too influenced by commerce (both Big Pharma and Big Insurance), which can lead to underreporting of negative results and me-too drugs. In addition, humans are complicated, and psychiatry's current knowledge base will be seen as meager in a hundred years (though if we keep electing certain types of politicians, perhaps the remaining survivors of the devastation will look at this as the golden era of humanity), and so it is easy to say that we don't know a lot of things about diagnosis and treatment. It's absurd to think, however, that there is some sort of impermeable group-think and that the only clear independent thinker is the last psychiatrist. That kind of thought is just silly.
 
Is a study without tight experimental control garbage? Not necessarily, the data is just telling us something different.

I agree that in the instance above it isn't garbage, but the incorrect inferences based on the tight experimental group often/usually doesn't generalize like the studies often imply.

This statement gets to the crux of my issue:

Then we have journals like Nature.....that seems to actively encourage people to overstate their results.

-

....data is just information. Its up the authors and readers to decide what it means. That includes being cautious and clear as to what your methodology is actually capable of uncovering.

The challenge is in the details. The mere publication of something often makes people assume that it is trustworthy, while many times there are severe limitations and generalizability is suspect. Look no further than many pharma pubs that come down the chute.....they can get hyped, but after looking at the methods, they are far less impressive. Setting up short time frames to avoid capturing certain data (and keep costs down), selecting comparison meds that match up poorly to the primary med in question, excluding certain populations that ultimately will also be taking the med, etc. I understand that requiring a larger, longer, and more comprehensive study would delay a med many years from getting out there....though I still think there is room for improvement without drastically increasing the time frame for approval.
 
It's absurd to think, however, that there is some sort of impermeable group-think and that the only clear independent thinker is the last psychiatrist. That kind of thought is just silly.

While I strongly agree (though I do like TLP's blog), for someone who does not understand the field (Skee lo identified himself as premed, so he's probably young & very impressionable), & may have possibly received poor care from a psychiatrist--it invites a very strong emotionalistic response possibly compounded by the amount of anti-psychiatry propganda out there.

I'm wondering if the anti-psychiatry movement is gaining any ground. When I mention "anti-psychiatry", I'm talking about the whacko-extremists critics of our field such as Scientology, not someone who wants to critically examine our field. Scientology, while it seems the vast majority of the public sees them for what they are, still is a multi-million dollar (perhaps billion dollar) international organization that has lobbied heads of 1st world nations.
 
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