what's your benzo speech?

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Suedehead

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Some good points are hidden in similarly topicked (not a word) threads, but I hoped to make something more explicit.........

What is YOUR speech to your patients about why you recommend tapering/discontinuing or why don't want to start/continue a benzodiazepine. I know your reasoning, and I know mine.... what I really want to know is your speech to your patients.

I also know that it is (and should be) individualized; but what old standards, good lines, or approaches do you good folks keep coming to?

And yes, this is being brought up after having yet another benzo arm-wrestle this week.
 
My favorite is if they're alcoholics. "Me prescribing you benzos is like me giving you alcohol in pill form". I usually say this in a soft warm tone, empathetically and with what I like to call an affect of "perplexed surprise". I then enlist the assistance of therapeutic silence. Works everytime.
 
"OMG, that's the worst s#!^ you could ever be on."

or close to that...

I love it when I run a state pharmacy report and ask them why they have 4 providers giving them xanax.
 
"Me prescribing you benzos is like me giving you alcohol in pill form".

That's literally the exact line I use. I do tell them there are differences between benzos and alcohol, but the bottom line is it works on the same chemical messenging system in the brain and gives the same effects and the same type of dependence and addiction.

I also add..."What would you think of me if I told you to solve your problem with vodka, because by giving you Xanax, I'm doing something on the same order."
 
"We don't prescribe that here."

Sometimes I add things about how it makes things worse, how it's still prescribed by a lot of primary care doctors because 30 years ago they used to think it was helpful, etc.

I then segway into that I want to help, and we can try to use the tools we do have...
 
I then segway into that I want to help, and we can try to use the tools we do have...

segue: to make a transition from one thing to another smoothly and without interruption

segway:
images


Just sayin'...
 
segue: to make a transition from one thing to another smoothly and without interruption

segway:
images


Just sayin'...

Excellent point.
And I usually make such efforts for proper grammar and spelling.

Segways bring to mind:
GOB-segway.jpg


And btw, my other favorite is "This hand does not write the word xanax."
 
Segways bring to mind:

And, as an aside, did you hear that 10 new episodes of AD were authorized, along with the movie?

And now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

In the ED, I don't get as much BZD requesting, but had a guy come in night before last, literally twirling his cane around in a theatrical fashion (as witnessed on security camera), and amazingly becoming decrepit on hitting the ED doors. His only line? "Can I have Percocet?" If he didn't say that verbatim at least 10 times, he didn't say it, and that was the response to every single question or statement from me. When I told him "no", he said, "Can I have methadone?" (He didn't get that either.)
 
Fine, but my folks would just say--"OK then, I'll go back to the vodka..."


Well I actually did have a borderline patient, already started on Klonopin by some idiot doctor. We worked out a plan where I was going to gradually transition her off the Klonopin over the course of about 3 months, until one day she got into a fight with the boyfriend and took the entire bottle in a fit of rage.

From that moment on, I refused her anymore Klonopin.

Then a few weeks later, her boyfriend's telling us that she's now resorted to the bottle.

I couldn't help but think that my little line gave her the bright idea to use alcohol instead of benzos.

Off on a tangent, but that patient was just more than the office I worked at could handle. She was one of those borderline patients that end up being hospitalized about once a month. While I wanted to offer her help, she needed a 24-hour DBT case management team, and I referred her to one. The place where I was treating this patient didn't offer that.

And then she refused to see them because it turned out she was with them before and she stiffed them out of few hundred bucks. They weren't treating her until she paid them back, and she refused to do that. I wasn't going to give her benzos, she called up the office making demands for it intrusively, on the order of several times a day despite that I told her several times I would not give it to her. I ended up terminating her case.

Certainly a situation where I didn't feel right about it, but after discussing the case with several colleagues, some of them being very well trained in DBT, they all told me I was stuck between a rock and a hard place and this was the best choice.
 
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From that moment on, I refused her anymore Klonopin.

Then a few weeks later, her boyfriend's telling us that she's now resorted to the bottle.

I couldn't help but think that my little line gave her the bright idea to use alcohol instead of benzos.

The last few outpts that I've tangled with regarding benzos have threatened to start drinking again if they don't get their clonazepam, etc. I'm sort of dumbstruck by this, and it reminds me of my 4 year old (which is actually a logical countertransference, right?). I wanna shrug and say, 'well, uh, ok.' but I end up telling them that I can't blame him/her... the etoh and the benzos both feel good... they just have to ask if the benzo/etoh solution is getting them where they want to go eventually (if it was working, they wouldn't still be in treatment, right?).

Then a small, tired voice in the back of my mind can't help but see the parallel between suboxone/methadone maintenance for opiate dependence and "benzo maintenance" for etoh dep.

sigh. I wonder. Dig what you've all said so far.
 
Then a small, tired voice in the back of my mind can't help but see the parallel between suboxone/methadone maintenance for opiate dependence and "benzo maintenance" for etoh dep.

sigh. I wonder.

I had an addiction attending once bring this idea up during residency. At the time she'd mentioned there wasn't any evidence to support it, though I never dug around on pubmed to verify.

The other thing to remember is alcohol doesn't just hit GABA-A. It hits a lot of receptors(NMDA, and many many others). GABA-A is just the one associated with seizures.
 
That's literally the exact line I use. I do tell them there are differences between benzos and alcohol, but the bottom line is it works on the same chemical messenging system in the brain and gives the same effects and the same type of dependence and addiction.

I also add..."What would you think of me if I told you to solve your problem with vodka, because by giving you Xanax, I'm doing something on the same order."

I didn't realize the ETOH parallel w benzos was such a popular line; I use it all the time.

However, once a pt is on chronic benzos it's like pulling teeth to get them off. I don't accept pts anymore if they take them chronically, particularly if they have the trifecta:

1. Big ass doses of opioids.
2. Chronic benzos
3. FM

and don't want any other Tx apart from being narc'd out of their gourd. I ain't no drug dealer.
 
One thing I've found to have some benefit is to offer Gabapentin during a benzo taper-down. In several patients it does calm anxiety. While there's no data that I'm aware of showing it prevents relapse with benzos, there is good data showing it does it with alcohol, and benzos work similarly to alcohol.

I have an MR patient in a group home and an idiot doctor before me had her on Ativan 8 mg a day. When I took over, I told this MR patient the problems with benzos and told the group home I was going to taper this patient down slowly, on the order of about 1-2 mg a month.

The MR patient flipped out and threatened to drink bleach. I did my best in trying to detect if there was some type of actual disorder the Ativan was actually treated such as an anxiety disorder....nope, this was just pure iatrogenic benzo dependence. I added/increased Gabapentin with each drop of Ativan and she told me she was able to better tolerate the taper down.

After several months, she's now on 0.5 mg of Ativan a day and I will not stop it because now it's more of an obsessional thing where if it's stopped, she'll flip out again. While normally, I wouldn't budge, it's not worth it IMHO to risk her being hospitalized where a doc in the hospital will just give her more Ativan when it's just 0.5 mg a day.

Now I'm going to taper her off the Gabapentin.

I ain't no drug dealer.

Another line I have almost literally used but I don't use the word "ain't" in front of patients.

When patients demand Xanax, and I don't give it to them, and they ask me why so many other doctors gave it and I didn't, and if they really really push my patience (I try to be as civil as possible), I often give the line...."I'm not a drug dealer. If Dr. X chooses to give you a drug of abuse that by scientific data only puts you at risk of addiction and dependence, you're going to have to ask him why he chooses to do that. I will not. A drug dealer with an M.D. is still a drug dealer."
 
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I thought this was interesting: The Religion of Benzos

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/display/article/10168/54151

I read that, though it seems the proponents of benzo's are (maybe willfully) blind to the patients they can really screw up. It also perpetuates the idea of avoidance of anxiety as a way of managing it, rather than confrontation/exposure, with medication as an adjunct. Most anxiety disorder specialists will tell you that avoidance leads to worsening anticipatory anxiety and limiting basic life activities.
 
It also perpetuates the idea of avoidance of anxiety as a way of managing it, rather than confrontation/exposure, with medication as an adjunct. Most anxiety disorder specialists will tell you that avoidance leads to worsening anticipatory anxiety and limiting basic life activities.

love this
 
Mentioned this before. I will give patients benzos chronically if they are using it only for anticipatory anxiety and on the order of only up to 3 times a week at most.

Such patients can usually only take a handful of benzos a month. The risk of addiction and dependence at that point is quite small. I also tell the patient that we need to work on reducing their anticipatory anxiety through psychotherapy, and there's a danger of mentally relying on benzos as the only method to treat it because they're now locking themselves into a security blanket situation.

Aside from that I can only think of a handful of patients that I've kept on benzos chronically out of literally thousands of patients I've treated, and in those cases they were only allowed to take small dosages.
 
Mentioned this before. I will give patients benzos chronically if they are using it only for anticipatory anxiety and on the order of only up to 3 times a week at most.

Such patients can usually only take a handful of benzos a month. The risk of addiction and dependence at that point is quite small. I also tell the patient that we need to work on reducing their anticipatory anxiety through psychotherapy, and there's a danger of mentally relying on benzos as the only method to treat it because they're now locking themselves into a security blanket situation.

Aside from that I can only think of a handful of patients that I've kept on benzos chronically out of literally thousands of patients I've treated, and in those cases they were only allowed to take small dosages.

and if you had to choose to keep someone on benzos, would you go prn or scheduled?
 
PRN. What happens is I either give them enough for daily use (e.g. Ativan 1 mg Q daily PRN onset of panic attacks) but tell them that I expect it to last them at least a few months. I can tell how long it'll last them by the amount of times they ask for a refill. E.g. If I give someone 30 pills and it lasted them 10 months, they took about 3 a month. I also tell them that they better not be doctor shopping and I can verify if this is the case using the OARRS system in Ohio. That system tells me every single prescription the patient filled out and who prescribed it.

Or based the the # of attacks they have per month, I'll give them enough benzo to last them that many attacks for that month + perhaps some additional just in case. E.g. if the person has 1 attack per month, I'll give them maybe 3 tabs of Ativan with monthly refills.

While the first method is less official, in the sense that you're not expecting daily usage, it gives the patient more freedom to not have to get a refill every month.

This all went without saying that I only do this once the patient is maxed out on at least one SSRI (or SNRI) with Buspirone or Lamictal augmentation. I will not give a benzo until the alternatives are tried first.
 
One thing I've found to have some benefit is to offer Gabapentin during a benzo taper-down. In several patients it does calm anxiety. While there's no data that I'm aware of showing it prevents relapse with benzos, there is good data showing it does it with alcohol, and benzos work similarly to alcohol.

I have an MR patient in a group home and an idiot doctor before me had her on Ativan 8 mg a day. When I took over, I told this MR patient the problems with benzos and told the group home I was going to taper this patient down slowly, on the order of about 1-2 mg a month.

The MR patient flipped out and threatened to drink bleach. I did my best in trying to detect if there was some type of actual disorder the Ativan was actually treated such as an anxiety disorder....nope, this was just pure iatrogenic benzo dependence. I added/increased Gabapentin with each drop of Ativan and she told me she was able to better tolerate the taper down.

After several months, she's now on 0.5 mg of Ativan a day and I will not stop it because now it's more of an obsessional thing where if it's stopped, she'll flip out again. While normally, I wouldn't budge, it's not worth it IMHO to risk her being hospitalized where a doc in the hospital will just give her more Ativan when it's just 0.5 mg a day.

Now I'm going to taper her off the Gabapentin.



Another line I have almost literally used but I don't use the word "ain't" in front of patients.

When patients demand Xanax, and I don't give it to them, and they ask me why so many other doctors gave it and I didn't, and if they really really push my patience (I try to be as civil as possible), I often give the line...."I'm not a drug dealer. If Dr. X chooses to give you a drug of abuse that by scientific data only puts you at risk of addiction and dependence, you're going to have to ask him why he chooses to do that. I will not. A drug dealer with an M.D. is still a drug dealer."

I wouldn't make this statement to a patient ( I ain't no drug dealer ) . I suspect I would likely get a call from my friendly neighbourhood college complaints dept / inspector if I did so 😀

I found the religion of benzos articles very interesting. In my experience, I find that there are certain character traits among pts on chronic benzos:

1. Poor frustration tolerance.
2. Unfortunate upbring / hx of childhood abuse.
3. Co-morbid chronic pain.
4. Co-morbid substance abuse history.

I would be willing to bet that the above traits significantly increases the lifetime risk of being on chronic benzos.

I recently received a consult request on a pt who had a past hx of opioid , cocaine and marijuana abuse. He had been on methadone for a 1 yr period for opioid dependence.

The referring MD then noted that his psychiatrist was currently prescribing the pt Clonazepam. I could tell by the tone of the referral that the family MD did not think this was a good idea.
 
Fine, but my folks would just say--"OK then, I'll go back to the vodka..."
<sigh>

I have your patients. I was appalled when I started at a community clinic and discovered how many of my patients had been on massive doses for years. When I asked about substance abuse during the interview, I didn't realize how many people abused prescriptions here. I agree with ghost dog's list of traits of chronic users, and those traits describe a lot of my adult patients. I haven't had anyone agree that maybe QID Xanax/Valium/Ativan wasn't helping, although a few did later say that they felt good about being off.
 
I read that, though it seems the proponents of benzo's are (maybe willfully) blind to the patients they can really screw up. It also perpetuates the idea of avoidance of anxiety as a way of managing it, rather than confrontation/exposure, with medication as an adjunct. Most anxiety disorder specialists will tell you that avoidance leads to worsening anticipatory anxiety and limiting basic life activities.

I told a patient this morning, "Quit calling the ambulance when you have a panic attack. You're not going to die."
 
On the flipside, I got a patient without an anxiety history, had chest pain, he called his PCP, and the idiot told him to it was all psychiatric (yes, the PCP was talking to the guy over the phone) and told him to call me.

I told the patient this could be a cardiac event and he needed to go to the hospital. He called the PCP who told the guy again to not do anything other than talk to me about it.
 
Just had a patient with new-onset GAD with panic attacks, hypochondriasis, kept calling 911, medically cleared in ER's and given xanax to take home. He was slowly escalating his dose, paralyzed with fear, even got himself hospitalized for SI related to his anxiety and was put on ANOTHER benzo and seroquel on top of everything. Stopped it all, got him practicing breathing exercises several times a day and on moderate dose SSRI. Complete remission of symptoms. And he admitted that once he was off xanax and on low dose ssri that he already felt better.
 
4. Co-morbid substance abuse history.

Just a bit of personal insight into this, I'm not sure how widespread it is elsewhere, but in the drug abusing population I was a part of in my neck of the woods, there did exist a certain hierarchy of bragging rights related to Benzo use, depending on what scripts, and from whom you were able to get. The two most desirable Benzos tended to be Xanax or Clonazepam, and the more Benzo unfriendly the Doctor, the bigger the challenge, and the 'better' the pills you could get out of them, the most status you received. It wasn't at all uncommon for groups of pill users to get together and ooh and ahh over what scripts they were getting, and for the more successful to be expected to teach their secrets to others who were having a more difficult time getting stuff prescribed to them. To a certain degree it wasn't just the pills themselves we desired, or were addicted to, it was the entire process. Going to a Doctor, making up some bs story, getting the script, coming out of the office with a nice little adrenalin rush going on, because we'd been successful, it all fed into it.
 
Just a bit of personal insight into this, I'm not sure how widespread it is elsewhere, but in the drug abusing population I was a part of in my neck of the woods, there did exist a certain hierarchy of bragging rights related to Benzo use, depending on what scripts, and from whom you were able to get. The two most desirable Benzos tended to be Xanax or Clonazepam, and the more Benzo unfriendly the Doctor, the bigger the challenge, and the 'better' the pills you could get out of them, the most status you received. It wasn't at all uncommon for groups of pill users to get together and ooh and ahh over what scripts they were getting, and for the more successful to be expected to teach their secrets to others who were having a more difficult time getting stuff prescribed to them. To a certain degree it wasn't just the pills themselves we desired, or were addicted to, it was the entire process. Going to a Doctor, making up some bs story, getting the script, coming out of the office with a nice little adrenalin rush going on, because we'd been successful, it all fed into it.

and thus enters the UDS.

But I don't script these on a chronic basis, so this population wouldn't have gotten this far with me.

The love affair begins....

Foot meet ass😀
 
and thus enters the UDS.

But I don't script these on a chronic basis, so this population wouldn't have gotten this far with me.

The love affair begins....

Foot meet ass😀

Funnily enough we still classified Doctors with a strict 'No Benzo' policy as 'good Doctors'. Doctors in general tended to be divided into two categories, Good Doctors and Dodgy Doctors. Good Doctors didn't always fall for our song and dance routine, and refused to give us scripts. Dodgy Doctors flicked pills out to us like a candy (scripts in exchange for money or sexual favours wasn't unheard of).

I'm sure you would have just loved me and my group. </sarcasm> Actually I'm sure we would have ended up being thrown out your office with the aforementioned foot up our scamming arses, deservedly so. Don't get me wrong, I'm not proud of a lot of the stuff I did back then.

These days I tend to run a mile if I visit a new Doctor and get an inkling that they're of the 'easy with the Benzo scripts' variety. I've been clean for almost 10 years, and off Benzos for around 6. I want to keep it that way. It's heartening reading this thread and seeing the 'no benzos' policy being put forth.

And on that note, I do believe I shall bow out of the discussion. I don't think it's appropriate for someone on the other side of the desk to be engaging in here too much. 😎
 
The abuse is not as great as we are led to believe. They do have a role, an important, role and are medication that actually works as opposed to most of the meds we have. I mean, our meds works but they have a hard time separating from placebo. Patient's with a hx of polysubstance, ETOH abuse, I will avoid them in this population. I will bridge my anxiety folks with benzos until I get there SSRI where I need it. Also, I know that something like zoloft can be activating and folks will quit it before we get it to a place where it will benefit them. I have a taper plan in place.

I also have folks that have been on low dose benzos for year that I've inherited in my outpatient residency clinic. They stable. They're doing well. No evidence of abuse. And that's not an uncommon story. So, why rock the boat? Yeah, if they impaired by it, cog stuff, 3 MVAs in the past year, disinhibited, etc. I don't use them in folks with PTSD, no evidence that it helps, might harm, perhaps more dissociative episodes. Never in a borderline, etc. Benzos are safer in overdose than other meds. Yeah, yeah, we can site a case with comorbid med problems, but generally safer in overdose than other meds we use. It's when they mix drugs and ETOH with them that we need to worry.

So, the no benzo policy makes little sense to me. I'm not quick to write a script for them, but I have a rationale and appreciation of how they may help certain populations.
 
Evidence?
Exactly, where is the evidence for the abuse? We hear the horror stories, but not the folks for whom it's been a great help. I think judicious use of benzos make sense in the right populations for a limited time and there are people that are stable on it for years. We just don't talk about those cases. If we're told to look for a particular car, then that's all we'll see on the road.
 
Exactly, where is the evidence for the abuse? We hear the horror stories, but not the folks for whom it's been a great help. I think judicious use of benzos make sense in the right populations for a limited time and there are people that are stable on it for years. We just don't talk about those cases. If we're told to look for a particular car, then that's all we'll see on the road.

Your argument, though, is a tautology. There's no evidence for abuse, so that means that it is overstated, or there is less of a problem?

I'll give you an anecdote. I have a one in a million heart valve defect. Literally - it's been diagnosed less than 150 times in the US. However, it is under-reported - it's already been written up, so no one reports it anymore. Under-reported. But it is still there.

To say that the problem is overblown because of a paucity of studies is a logical fallacy. Recall that the weakest form of evidence is expert opinion, and inclusive of that is anecdote. Recall also this piece from the esteemed British Medical Journal, which speaks directly to your point.
 
Exactly, where is the evidence for the abuse?

Seriously? Ok, here:

Evidence of accelerating use, and that benzo's with longer half-lives (contrary to popular belief) led to increased risk of abuse.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21807829

Impairment in cognition in those using benzo's.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21531246
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21494764

Lots more on how at baseline people overuse or abuse them when actually evaluated:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21219408

Long-term users of benzo's have worse sleep quality.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20963787

Stopping benzo's decreases risk for dementia.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20808131

Being on benzo's increases risk for dementia.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19546656

Those on disability and benzo's means they're more likely to be on bzd's 20 years later.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20071064

Paradoxical disinhibition and worsening of aggression in those given benzo's.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18922233

Where's the evidence that you have that the abuse isn't that bad? While I agree that not everyone escalates their use, I'd say there's few ways to figure out who that population is without exposing a much larger population to benzo's, and there's minimal evidence that benzo use ever improves functioning. Lack of escalation doesn't mean they've really improved in any domain of their life. IMHO, the risks far outweigh the benefits. If anything they should be a 4th or 5th line medication.

Perhaps we should be having a discussion not on whether to ever prescribe benzo's, but for whom and what is the evidence to support that?
 
I agree that we should talk about for whom we should use benzos.

Look, I'm not trying to be difficult. Use them with caution, have an exit plan, and a rationale. When I start someone on an SSRI for panic, uniformly they feel worse and quit it before they feel better. When I've covered them with a benzo, not as a prn, but scheduled it, with a plan taper, I've had success and we're able to get to a target dose. I have tons of success with monotherapy of sertraline for panic/social. I suspect my belief in the plan aids in their recovery too.

And, as a resident, I've inherited messes and it's tough, but I work to reduce the risks, lower the dose, but stopping isn't always easy especially some of the folks in my clinic have been on these for years. I've gotten folks in my clinic that have been on benzos for years. I'm in a tough place.

But trying to get a patient off of them is hard and difficult. A regular struggle that I've had to face, but also working to create a safe relationship of trust with patients where they are willing to work with me, takes time.

Where I avoid them is: elderly, personality, PTSD, depression, hx of substance/etoh. Most places.

But, imo, they have a valued role in psychiatry when used appropriately and judiciously for the short term.
 
I agree that we should talk about for whom we should use benzos.

Look, I'm not trying to be difficult. Use them with caution, have an exit plan, and a rationale. When I start someone on an SSRI for panic, uniformly they feel worse and quit it before they feel better. When I've covered them with a benzo, not as a prn, but scheduled it, with a plan taper, I've had success and we're able to get to a target dose. I have tons of success with monotherapy of sertraline for panic/social. I suspect my belief in the plan aids in their recovery too.

And, as a resident, I've inherited messes and it's tough, but I work to reduce the risks, lower the dose, but stopping isn't always easy especially some of the folks in my clinic have been on these for years. I've gotten folks in my clinic that have been on benzos for years. I'm in a tough place.

But trying to get a patient off of them is hard and difficult. A regular struggle that I've had to face, but also working to create a safe relationship of trust with patients where they are willing to work with me, takes time.

Where I avoid them is: elderly, personality, PTSD, depression, hx of substance/etoh. Most places.

But, imo, they have a valued role in psychiatry when used appropriately and judiciously for the short term.

Interesting discussion.

I have a few questions for you:

1. In an "average / typical " patient with panic d / o who is currently on a benzo and starting an SSRI, how long would you keep them on a benzo usually ? 2 weeks ?
2 months ?

2. Do you use benzos for GAD ? How do you evaluate " stability " in this setting ? Do you use standardized anxiety indices to measure their level of anxiety, or do you take the pt's word that they "feel better " ?

3. Do you test for biochemical compliance by way of urine drug testing, even in the absence of risk factors ? Some drug seeking pts can be quite convincing ( and drug diverting pts even more so).

I would also be interested in Whopper's input on this issue.
 
In outpatient, I try to avoid the use of benzos completely. I have given them from time to time.

Whenever someone has an anxiety disorder, if it does not appear to be severe, I usually don't even offer them. What do I consider severe? Some examples: the person has debilitating panic attacks, the person is on the verge of losing their job due to their anxiety, the person's anxiety is so visible that during the meeting I'm actually greatly troubled by it.

What do I not consider severe? The person is still able to manage themselves in school or at work.

I usually only give out benzos for a month tops if at all. From personal experience, I've allowed only about 15% of new patients with an anxiety disorder on it during that first month.

I also give a benzo speech about how it's addictive and in some studies, dependence can start as early as a few weeks. Given my current outpatient private practice setting, the overwhelming majority, upon hearing that speech actually don't even want a benzo. Unfortunately in other settings, and I hate saying it because it sounds judgmental, the lower the SES, often times I get a heck of a lot more people just looking for the quicker fix and wanted a benzo. In such settings, for this reason, I'm even more hesitant to give out benzos.

I've also at time substituted Gabapentin to treat anxiety and while it's not indicated there is data supporting that it as a treatment for anxiety. I've also used Vistaril.

A problem with giving out benzos in the first place is some patients will demand to stay on them even after they've been placed on an SSRI claiming the SSRI doesn't work or they need the benzo even if the SSRI is working. In my private practice setting this is rare, and again, I hate saying this, in lower SES settings, the patients demanding a benzo have been much higher. I still stop it even if they are still experiencing anxiety, telling the patient that it'll be even worse if I they become addicted and dependent to the benzo. If the SSRI isn't working then it's either not the right one or not at the right dosage.

This is a reason why I am very gung-ho about getting SSRIs to maximum dosages as fast as I can within the guidelines (all things being equal, if the patient has bipolar disorder, that's another story). There's no point IMHO for a patient to remain depressed or anxious at Zoloft 50 mg for 4 months when it's going to be the 200 mg dosage that may be the one that get's them better. I tell the patients to increase the dosage per the manufacturer's guidelines as quickly as possible and to call me if there's a problem. If they get better, then we can discuss pulling their dosage back. It could be several months before a patient feels better if you only increase the dosage once every few weeks to months as I've seen several other doctors do it. I don't understand the logic of someone still being depressed and anxious on Zoloft 50 mg after 6 months, when all the data shows that you give it about one month on the current dosage to see what it's going to do at that dosage. Why didn't their doctor increase it sooner? I don't understand the logic of someone being on 50 mg Qdaily for even a month (unless it's what the patient wants, they happened to get better on that dosage, or they have side effects at higher dosages) when the data suggests that at lower dosages, SSRIs usually don't do much at all. I usually increase the dosage automatically after one week. When it hits a moderate dosage, that's when I'm willing to bide more time, though I will still increase it if that's what the patient wants. Remember, STAR*D showed that even at maximum dosages, SSRIs work, but even then they don't work well. Going up slowly on SSRIs when you don't have to go slowly is like asking a patient to watch the water and wait for it to boil. If the SSRI doesn't work, that'll just delay the time even more before the doctor can figure it out and try the next one. I also will not increase faster than the guidelines permit.

If you warn the patient you will get them off the medication ahead of time and why, you will get a lot less backlash by the time you stop it against a patient's will. Again, I hate saying this, but in lower SES patients, I often get the excuse, "Doctor, when I took the Klonopin, I felt so much better I decided I didn't want the antidepressant." That's a reason why I drill it into the patient's head from the beginning that the benzo will be stopped whether they like it or not and that the real long-term treatment is the SSRI (or SNRI).

And I've mentioned this in other threads. I've noticed a subset of patients who come to me with a chief complaint of anxiety but when I tried multiple SSRIs and SNRIs, their anxiety doesnt' get better. After doing TOVA testing, these people actually ended up having ADHD, and the ADHD treatment ended up relieving their anxiety. If a few trials of an SSRI or SNRI don't work, consider ADHD.

The only times I can remember where I continued benzo use after 3 months was mentioned above: patients with panic disorder that take benzos on the order of only a few times a month, and patients on the order of only a handful out of a few thousand I've treated. Right now I can only remember 4 off the top of my head.

To give you an example of some of the few cases where I continued an benzo ....
In one of those cases, the guy was on Clonazepam 1 mg Qdaily for years. I took him off of it and he had a panic attack. I told him about my concerns of dependence, but he was stable on that dosage and it didn't have to be increased. I wasn't the doctor that started him on that regimen. The guy has real real bad bipolar disorder when he's manic, and I dare not give him an SSRI. His bipolar is to the degree where he's received ECT several times. One of his inpatient psychiatric hospitalizations was over 1 year. He's stable now and I don't want to rock that boat.

Another case, and I mentioned it before (is it in this thread)?, I have an MR patient in a group home that was on Ativan 8 mg Qdaily from some idiot doctor who didn't know what he was doing. I weaned her down to 0.5 mg Qdaily. If she is taken off the Ativan, she freaks out (threatens to drink bleach, and she's actually had to be held down to prevent that). If she freaks out, she's sent to the local hospital where the ER doc gives her lots of Ativan. It's either 0.5 mg a day or a lot of it from some idiot ER doctor, and then I got to wean her off again. If this were inpatient, I'd seriously just stop it and if she freaked out, we'd deal with it then, but she's in a group home where they don't have the manpower to deal with this, and I'm only there once a month for about one hour.

The patient doesn't understand that she's taking Ativan 0.5 or 8. She just feels that she has to take it as if it's some type of magical Dumbo feather. I've tried to explain to her that she most definitely doesn't need Ativan but we're talking a very concrete person here. While I'd love to give her a placebo and tell her it's Ativan, we all know I'm not allowed to do that. I've tried to tell her, "I got something better than Ativan," but she won't accept it.
 
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When I start someone on an SSRI for panic, uniformly they feel worse and quit it before they feel better. When I've covered them with a benzo, not as a prn, but scheduled it, with a plan taper, I've had success and we're able to get to a target dose.

I'd recommend starting microdose SSRI as an alternative approach (5mg of celexa or prozac), with titration after 5 days. Lower dose seems to minimize early worsening of anxiety and allow them to acclimate to it. I preferentially use this technique for those I think can't tolerate an SSRI, and I have yet to have a single failed case, with the exception of those actively using other substances. With actively teaching patients breathing exercises and other relaxation exercises in the office (where they can immediately feel the effects), I've gotten patients with severe uncontrolled anxiety and on multiple benzo's off of them completely. Whether it be GAD, severe PTSD, panic disorder.

Occasionally I'll give prn gabapentin or vistaril.
 
BZDs are a huge problem where I practice and I avoid giving them.
However, I think the vitriol and superlatives are a bit overdone.
NOT everyone abuses/overuses.

In Dr Geppert's article, "The Religion of Benzodiazepines,"
[URL="http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/display/article/10168/54151"[/URL]
she points out that physician's attitudes toward BZDs often include traits reminiscent of a religion. I would suggest 3 particular traits:
- a single, all encompassing worldview (BZDs are "good" or "bad")
- a tremendous self-assurance that the worldview held is completely correct
- a condescension and dismissiveness toward other points of view

She also points out that over-reaching conclusions prevent us from thinking clearly about THIS patient at THIS time, instead becoming caught up in defending/promoting our own view of a controversy.
There is no question that I am guilty of this on many issues, on any given day. It's not uncommon that I hear, "Doc, let it go."


From Dr. Geppert (http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/display/article/10168/54151):
Finding a balance
What is important to realize is that each time we write a prescription for alprazolam(Drug information on alprazolam) (Xanax) for a young woman with panic disorder or refuse to give an anxious elderly man diazepam(Drug information on diazepam) (Valium), our choices may not be nearly as grounded in dispassionate research as we might think. Being aware of one's personal beliefs regarding benzodiazepines and the social and philosophical forces acting on the fulcrum of prescribing can help all of us find a balanced position in accordance with the 1990 task force report on benzodiazepines of the American Psychiatric Association (APA).15 Benzodiazepines, the APA said (and most good clinicians know), are not so much drugs of abuse as drugs that can be abused. As I tell my residents, in the end it is still the doctor who controls the prescription and so we should err on the side of succor whenever reasonable and resume the reins if the pleasure so overwhelms the patient that it causes pain.


In my next post I want to take a closer look at the articles Nitemagi used to support the idea that BZD's are rampantly abused by patients.
Stay tuned.....
(or feel free to tune out if I've already bored you 😀)
 
Nitemagi listed a number of articles in response to the request for evidence that Rx'd BZDs are routinely and rampantly abused.
I admit I have not read most of the entire articles, only the abstracts.
But let's take a closer look at whether these articles provide convincing evidence that Rx'd BZDs are so routinely abused.

Evidence of accelerating use, and that benzo's with longer half-lives (contrary to popular belief) led to increased risk of abuse.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21807829
This one is about whether teens given BZDs end up abusing them as adults.
"Overall, one-quarter were accelerating or chronic users."
Ergo, three-quarters were Not.


Impairment in cognition in those using benzo's.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21531246
This one is not about abuse at all, but residual cog effects after bedtime use.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21494764
Also not about abuse or acceleration of use, but about memory testing in young adult pts using BZDs over 10 yrs.
"The analysis revealed a significant alteration of long-term memory in women whereas there was no significant association in men." Hmm, that was interesting!


Lots more on how at baseline people overuse or abuse them when actually evaluated:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21219408
This one is about "inappropriate" use, but ended up demonstrating that Prescribers keep pts on BZDs too long. "Overall, BZD use was rarely in accordance with all guidelines, mainly because most users (82.5%) exceeded the recommended duration of safe use." That responsibility belongs to the prescribers, not the patients.

Long-term users of benzo's have worse sleep quality.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20963787
Shows that BZD-users report poorer sleep quality and slower recovery of normal sleep quality. Correlation - not causation. It's quite possible that poorer sleep caused BZD prescription and slower recovery caused Rx to go on longer. However, still nothing to do with abuse of Rx'd BZDs.

Stopping benzo's decreases risk for dementia.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20808131
"The risk of dementia was high for current users and decreased as the duration of BZD discontinuation lengthened." I believe the causal relationship here is likely that BZD->increased risk of dementia. But this study is still correlational. It's possible that those still getting BZDs were getting them because of early dementia symptoms, i.e. perhaps very early dementia causes prescribers to be more likely to Rx BZDs. And this still has nothing to do with how rampant BZD abuse is or isn't.

Being on benzo's increases risk for dementia.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19546656
"Our findings suggest that long-term use of BZDs is associated with an increased risk for dementia, but the underlying mechanisms remain unclear, and further investigations are needed." Still correlation and possible (maybe even likely?) that dementia is Causing the BZD Rx, and not the other way around. However, I agree "Long-term use of BZDs should be avoided among the elderly, who may be at a higher risk for developing dementia, in addition to other health problems." But still not really relevant to whether abuse of Rx'd BZDs is rampant and epidemic.

Those on disability and benzo's means they're more likely to be on bzd's 20 years later.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20071064
In this pop'n, half of women were Rx'd enough BZDs to account for "the use of a daily dose every second day." That's not horrific abuse/overuse in my view. And that means that half were getting less than 1 pill / 2 days.
"...Being on a disability pension was a predictor of benzodiazepine use 20 years later." 'Yep, having an illness that is severe and chronic enough to be on disability increases your chances of still being on treatment 20 years later. I would be astounded if that weren't true! I'll bet it's also true for arthritis and MS and Crohn's and Diabetes and....
And still, not indicative of abuse or escalation.


Paradoxical disinhibition and worsening of aggression in those given benzo's.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18922233
I don't know French, so I can't read the article even if i obtain it. However, the abstract points out "General population studies indicate a prevalence of these reactions of less than 1%." I'm personally very skeptical of reports of "paradoxical" reactions. In over 25 years in psych, I've never seen a paradoxical reaction. Every supposed paradoxical reaction was because of inadequate time to have any response "we gave him Ativan PO for threatening to hurt people and 60 seconds later he hit someone," or inadequate dose "he took his Klonipin 0.5mg after hitting the window, and still hit the window an hour later" or really had no correlation to the outcome "he got Haldol 5 and Ativan 1 PO at 10am for thinking the nurse was his dead aunt who raped him, and at 2pm he screamed at her to leave him alone and tried to hit her." I"m not saying it doesn't happen, but that the incidents I've seen are misrepresented as "paradoxical."

But all that STILL has nothing to do with how rampant BZD abuse is or isn't.
 
Thanks for speaking to the points Kugel. I recognize it's often dogmatic on both sides. The articles I posted were not all meant to address abuse, but that long-term use has documented consequences and little benefits, combined with risk of abuse as well. What I'd maintain is that we have little data to really show who will abuse and who won't. That, combined with the very real side effects (cognitive, sleep) and the questionable benefit makes on average, the risks far outweigh the benefits. I'll use benzo's on a limited basis if aggressive behavioral/psychotherapy and first line meds have failed.

What I see though is a generational difference. Older psychiatrists prescribe benzo's as first-line quite often. Family practitioners prescribe them all the time (often because they don't know how to use SSRI's well).
 
What I see though is a generational difference. Older psychiatrists prescribe benzo's as first-line quite often.

Perhaps that's because they've learned how/when to use them more than you and me. Or just aren't as caught up in the "religion" of not using BZDs.
Just a thought.

Still...not advocating BZDs. I generally avoid them very stringently. But I don't think we do ourselves or our patients any service by refusing to think differently when conditions might warrant.
 
In outpatient, I try to avoid the use of benzos completely. I have given them from time to time.

Whenever someone has an anxiety disorder, if it does not appear to be severe, I usually don't even offer them. What do I consider severe? Some examples: the person has debilitating panic attacks, the person is on the verge of losing their job due to their anxiety, the person's anxiety is so visible that during the meeting I'm actually greatly troubled by it.

What do I not consider severe? The person is still able to manage themselves in school or at work.

I usually only give out benzos for a month tops if at all. From personal experience, I've allowed only about 15% of new patients with an anxiety disorder on it during that first month.

I also give a benzo speech about how it's addictive and in some studies, dependence can start as early as a few weeks. Given my current outpatient private practice setting, the overwhelming majority, upon hearing that speech actually don't even want a benzo. Unfortunately in other settings, and I hate saying it because it sounds judgmental, the lower the SES, often times I get a heck of a lot more people just looking for the quicker fix and wanted a benzo. In such settings, for this reason, I'm even more hesitant to give out benzos.

I've also at time substituted Gabapentin to treat anxiety and while it's not indicated there is data supporting that it as a treatment for anxiety. I've also used Vistaril.

A problem with giving out benzos in the first place is some patients will demand to stay on them even after they've been placed on an SSRI claiming the SSRI doesn't work or they need the benzo even if the SSRI is working. In my private practice setting this is rare, and again, I hate saying this, in lower SES settings, the patients demanding a benzo have been much higher. I still stop it even if they are still experiencing anxiety, telling the patient that it'll be even worse if I they become addicted and dependent to the benzo. If the SSRI isn't working then it's either not the right one or not at the right dosage.

This is a reason why I am very gung-ho about getting SSRIs to maximum dosages as fast as I can within the guidelines (all things being equal, if the patient has bipolar disorder, that's another story). There's no point IMHO for a patient to remain depressed or anxious at Zoloft 50 mg for 4 months when it's going to be the 200 mg dosage that may be the one that get's them better. I tell the patients to increase the dosage per the manufacturer's guidelines as quickly as possible and to call me if there's a problem. If they get better, then we can discuss pulling their dosage back. It could be several months before a patient feels better if you only increase the dosage once every few weeks to months as I've seen several other doctors do it. I don't understand the logic of someone still being depressed and anxious on Zoloft 50 mg after 6 months, when all the data shows that you give it about one month on the current dosage to see what it's going to do at that dosage. Why didn't their doctor increase it sooner? I don't understand the logic of someone being on 50 mg Qdaily for even a month (unless it's what the patient wants, they happened to get better on that dosage, or they have side effects at higher dosages) when the data suggests that at lower dosages, SSRIs usually don't do much at all. I usually increase the dosage automatically after one week. When it hits a moderate dosage, that's when I'm willing to bide more time, though I will still increase it if that's what the patient wants. Remember, STAR*D showed that even at maximum dosages, SSRIs work, but even then they don't work well. Going up slowly on SSRIs when you don't have to go slowly is like asking a patient to watch the water and wait for it to boil. If the SSRI doesn't work, that'll just delay the time even more before the doctor can figure it out and try the next one. I also will not increase faster than the guidelines permit.

If you warn the patient you will get them off the medication ahead of time and why, you will get a lot less backlash by the time you stop it against a patient's will. Again, I hate saying this, but in lower SES patients, I often get the excuse, "Doctor, when I took the Klonopin, I felt so much better I decided I didn't want the antidepressant." That's a reason why I drill it into the patient's head from the beginning that the benzo will be stopped whether they like it or not and that the real long-term treatment is the SSRI (or SNRI).

And I've mentioned this in other threads. I've noticed a subset of patients who come to me with a chief complaint of anxiety but when I tried multiple SSRIs and SNRIs, their anxiety doesnt' get better. After doing TOVA testing, these people actually ended up having ADHD, and the ADHD treatment ended up relieving their anxiety. If a few trials of an SSRI or SNRI don't work, consider ADHD.

The only times I can remember where I continued benzo use after 3 months was mentioned above: patients with panic disorder that take benzos on the order of only a few times a month, and patients on the order of only a handful out of a few thousand I've treated. Right now I can only remember 4 off the top of my head.

To give you an example of some of the few cases where I continued an benzo ....
In one of those cases, the guy was on Clonazepam 1 mg Qdaily for years. I took him off of it and he had a panic attack. I told him about my concerns of dependence, but he was stable on that dosage and it didn't have to be increased. I wasn't the doctor that started him on that regimen. The guy has real real bad bipolar disorder when he's manic, and I dare not give him an SSRI. His bipolar is to the degree where he's received ECT several times. One of his inpatient psychiatric hospitalizations was over 1 year. He's stable now and I don't want to rock that boat.

Another case, and I mentioned it before (is it in this thread)?, I have an MR patient in a group home that was on Ativan 8 mg Qdaily from some idiot doctor who didn't know what he was doing. I weaned her down to 0.5 mg Qdaily. If she is taken off the Ativan, she freaks out (threatens to drink bleach, and she's actually had to be held down to prevent that). If she freaks out, she's sent to the local hospital where the ER doc gives her lots of Ativan. It's either 0.5 mg a day or a lot of it from some idiot ER doctor, and then I got to wean her off again. If this were inpatient, I'd seriously just stop it and if she freaked out, we'd deal with it then, but she's in a group home where they don't have the manpower to deal with this, and I'm only there once a month for about one hour.

The patient doesn't understand that she's taking Ativan 0.5 or 8. She just feels that she has to take it as if it's some type of magical Dumbo feather. I've tried to explain to her that she most definitely doesn't need Ativan but we're talking a very concrete person here. While I'd love to give her a placebo and tell her it's Ativan, we all know I'm not allowed to do that. I've tried to tell her, "I got something better than Ativan," but she won't accept it.


Good stuff. If I had a psych like you in my area, I would refer all my pts to you!😎
 
Nitemagi listed a number of articles in response to the request for evidence that Rx'd BZDs are routinely and rampantly abused.
I admit I have not read most of the entire articles, only the abstracts.
But let's take a closer look at whether these articles provide convincing evidence that Rx'd BZDs are so routinely abused.

Evidence of accelerating use, and that benzo's with longer half-lives (contrary to popular belief) led to increased risk of abuse.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21807829
This one is about whether teens given BZDs end up abusing them as adults.
"Overall, one-quarter were accelerating or chronic users."
Ergo, three-quarters were Not.

Impairment in cognition in those using benzo's.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21531246
This one is not about abuse at all, but residual cog effects after bedtime use.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21494764
Also not about abuse or acceleration of use, but about memory testing in young adult pts using BZDs over 10 yrs.
"The analysis revealed a significant alteration of long-term memory in women whereas there was no significant association in men." Hmm, that was interesting!

Lots more on how at baseline people overuse or abuse them when actually evaluated:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21219408
This one is about "inappropriate" use, but ended up demonstrating that Prescribers keep pts on BZDs too long. "Overall, BZD use was rarely in accordance with all guidelines, mainly because most users (82.5%) exceeded the recommended duration of safe use." That responsibility belongs to the prescribers, not the patients.

Long-term users of benzo's have worse sleep quality.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20963787
Shows that BZD-users report poorer sleep quality and slower recovery of normal sleep quality. Correlation - not causation. It's quite possible that poorer sleep caused BZD prescription and slower recovery caused Rx to go on longer. However, still nothing to do with abuse of Rx'd BZDs.

Stopping benzo's decreases risk for dementia.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20808131
"The risk of dementia was high for current users and decreased as the duration of BZD discontinuation lengthened." I believe the causal relationship here is likely that BZD->increased risk of dementia. But this study is still correlational. It's possible that those still getting BZDs were getting them because of early dementia symptoms, i.e. perhaps very early dementia causes prescribers to be more likely to Rx BZDs. And this still has nothing to do with how rampant BZD abuse is or isn't.

Being on benzo's increases risk for dementia.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19546656
"Our findings suggest that long-term use of BZDs is associated with an increased risk for dementia, but the underlying mechanisms remain unclear, and further investigations are needed." Still correlation and possible (maybe even likely?) that dementia is Causing the BZD Rx, and not the other way around. However, I agree "Long-term use of BZDs should be avoided among the elderly, who may be at a higher risk for developing dementia, in addition to other health problems." But still not really relevant to whether abuse of Rx'd BZDs is rampant and epidemic.

Those on disability and benzo's means they're more likely to be on bzd's 20 years later.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20071064
In this pop'n, half of women were Rx'd enough BZDs to account for "the use of a daily dose every second day." That's not horrific abuse/overuse in my view. And that means that half were getting less than 1 pill / 2 days.
"...Being on a disability pension was a predictor of benzodiazepine use 20 years later." 'Yep, having an illness that is severe and chronic enough to be on disability increases your chances of still being on treatment 20 years later. I would be astounded if that weren't true! I'll bet it's also true for arthritis and MS and Crohn's and Diabetes and....
And still, not indicative of abuse or escalation.

Paradoxical disinhibition and worsening of aggression in those given benzo's.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18922233
I don't know French, so I can't read the article even if i obtain it. However, the abstract points out "General population studies indicate a prevalence of these reactions of less than 1%." I'm personally very skeptical of reports of "paradoxical" reactions. In over 25 years in psych, I've never seen a paradoxical reaction. Every supposed paradoxical reaction was because of inadequate time to have any response "we gave him Ativan PO for threatening to hurt people and 60 seconds later he hit someone," or inadequate dose "he took his Klonipin 0.5mg after hitting the window, and still hit the window an hour later" or really had no correlation to the outcome "he got Haldol 5 and Ativan 1 PO at 10am for thinking the nurse was his dead aunt who raped him, and at 2pm he screamed at her to leave him alone and tried to hit her." I"m not saying it doesn't happen, but that the incidents I've seen are misrepresented as "paradoxical."

But all that STILL has nothing to do with how rampant BZD abuse is or isn't.

Yes, but what long term benefit does this medication actually provide ?

Are you relying on the pt's purely subjective reports, or do you try to have them fill out a validated index?

This is why I have pt's fill out serial brief pain inventories (or other such questionairres) when scripting opioids. It gives me something to hang my hat on, and compare their baseline level of pain and functioning.

Is this the standard approach in psych when prescribing benzos?
 
Yes, but what long term benefit does this medication actually provide ?

Are you relying on the pt's purely subjective reports, or do you try to have them fill out a validated index?

This is why I have pt's fill out serial brief pain inventories (or other such questionairres) when scripting opioids. It gives me something to hang my hat on, and compare their baseline level of pain and functioning.

Is this the standard approach in psych when prescribing benzos?

The problem with many of those validated inventories is that they're still based on self-report. Malingerers can exaggerate on self-reports.
 
Perhaps that's because they've learned how/when to use them more than you and me. Or just aren't as caught up in the "religion" of not using BZDs.
Just a thought.

Still...not advocating BZDs. I generally avoid them very stringently. But I don't think we do ourselves or our patients any service by refusing to think differently when conditions might warrant.

I agree limiting thinking is a problem. I just don't have a whole lot of faith (or evidence) that the common benzo prescribers are discriminating at all about who they prescribe to.

I think our job is not just to pay attention to what the patient wants, or our reaction to them, but what they really want behind the surface request, and think outside of the immediate dynamic to try to offer them what they're really asking for, but might not even realize how to get.
 
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