What's your opinion on nontraditional students?

[breakmon]

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(NOTE: Please don't derail this thread. I'm looking to have an open discussion on this topic.)

Personally, I sort of resent the idea of nontraditional students. I mean, it's one thing if they took a gap year or two. Whatever. But I was looking through the nontrad pre-med forum and some of the people there are in their late 30's.

That's ridiculous. By the time they get out of residency they'll be in their mid-40s. Who knows how many of them will find out in their 50s that they have a debilitating disease that forces them into retirement? And even if they are healthy, their careers won't be as long as normal doctors' careers.

We already have a shortage of doctors in this country. In my opinion, it's a more efficient use of everyone's resources if we focus on training younger students who can better address the doctor shortage in this country.

 

[NuttyEngDude]

Agreed. We should make them kneel before zod.

 

[NontradCA]

Oh, hi.

 

[aspirantmed]

I'm assuming that if you feel that way, you haven't interviewed for medical schools yet. The non-trads I met often had really diverse, unconventional life experiences that made them more mature, capable, and (in my opinion) interesting M.D. candidates than people like me who have spent most of their lives in the school system. On my interview trail, I met a good number of people who were parents, or even single parents - how's that for an AMCAS 'most significant' experience? I met people who had done Ph.D.s in genetics and neuroscience, but also in fields like literature and visual arts. The cross-disciplinary perspectives those candidates can bring in are incredibly valuable to medicine. Heck, there were interview candidates I met who had served in the military for a number of years; what have you done in the undergraduate setting that demonstrates leadership, teamwork, and ability to deliver under pressure more than taking fire in a combat situation?

Non-trads are awesome. In most cases, if they have a clear motivation for changing into medicine and aren't just people who took several years off to fix a low GPA/MCAT, I wouldn't be surprised if they're usually much more favorably looked upon by admissions committees than traditional applicants.

 

[NickNaylor]

(NOTE: Please don't derail this thread. I'm looking to have an open discussion on this topic.)

Personally, I sort of resent the idea of nontraditional students. I mean, it's one thing if they took a gap year or two. Whatever. But I was looking through the nontrad pre-med forum and some of the people there are in their late 30's.

That's ridiculous. By the time they get out of residency they'll be in their mid-40s. Who knows how many of them will find out in their 50s that they have a debilitating disease that forces them into retirement? And even if they are healthy, their careers won't be as long as normal doctors' careers.

We already have a shortage of doctors in this country. In my opinion, it's a more efficient use of everyone's resources if we focus on training younger students who can better address the doctor shortage in this country.

If they provide the same level of care as anyone else, who cares? Are you going to get mad at the MDs that don't do anything but research? What about the MDs that don't practice medicine and go into industry? What about the MDs that burn out and end up doing something else with their time? Should we chastise them for their short careers as well?

Give me a break. Your perspective is misguided and short-sighted.

 

[breakmon]

I'm assuming that if you feel that way, you haven't interviewed for medical schools yet. The non-trads I met often had really diverse, unconventional life experiences that made them more mature, capable, and (in my opinion) interesting M.D. candidates than people like me who have spent most of their lives in the school system. On my interview trail, I met a good number of people who were parents, or even single parents - how's that for an AMCAS 'most significant' experience? I met people who had done Ph.D.s in genetics and neuroscience, but also in fields like literature and visual arts. The cross-disciplinary perspectives those candidates can bring in are incredibly valuable to medicine. Heck, there were interview candidates I met who had served in the military for a number of years; what have you done in the undergraduate setting that demonstrates leadership, teamwork, and ability to deliver under pressure more than taking fire in a combat situation?

Non-trads are awesome. In most cases, if they have a clear motivation for changing into medicine and aren't just people who took several years off to fix a low GPA/MCAT, I wouldn't be surprised if they're usually much more favorably looked upon by admissions committees than traditional applicants.

That's an interesting viewpoint, but it doesn't really address my original post. 😛

They might have lived "more interesting lives," but that still doesn't solve the doctor shortage problem.

Also, in your post you seemed to belittle people who "spent most of their lives in the school system." I disagree with your presumption that only real world experience seriously prepares you for medical school. Isn't the point of school to prepare you for the real world?

 

[QuantumJ]

(NOTE: Please don't derail this thread. I'm looking to have an open discussion on this topic.

Personally, I sort of resent the idea of nontraditional students. I mean, it's one thing if they took a gap year or two. Whatever. But I was looking through the nontrad pre-med forum and some of the people there are in their late 30's.

Personally, I sort of resent the idea that an early 20 something can really appreciate the responsibility it takes to take care of peoples lives. Not really but I'm just showing you I can turn this around in way too.

That's ridiculous. By the time they get out of residency they'll be in their mid-40s. Who knows how many of them will find out in their 50s that they have a debilitating disease that forces them into retirement? And even if they are healthy, their careers won't be as long as normal doctors' careers.

Yeah they may be in their 40s. So what? What does this do to have an effect on you? How many people will find out in their 20s they have some mystery debilitating disease? This is really just a stupid argument. You can't plan your life on some unknown disease you might get.

We already have a shortage of doctors in this country. In my opinion, it's a more efficient use of everyone's resources if we focus on training younger students who can better address the doctor shortage in this country.

Are you going to pay their debt off? No? Then what do you care. Again I don't understand why it matters to you. I'm not going to med school so I can address the doctor shortage in the country. I'm going to go into a specialty I WANT to do for my own fulfillment just like almost everyone else.

Nontrads can provide the same level of care as anyone else. The fact that they don't practice as long (which isn't always true anyway) doesn't affect anyone but themselves. It could also be argued that nontrads have a greater variety of life experiences to draw from.

 

[breakmon]

Personally, I sort of resent the idea that an early 20 something can really appreciate the responsibility it takes to take care of peoples lives. Not really but I'm just showing you I can turn this around in way too.

That's an interesting viewpoint. Why do you resent the people who are helping to address the doctor shortage in our country?

Yeah they may be in their 40s. So what? What does this do to have an effect on you? How many people will find out in their 20s they have some mystery debilitating disease? This is really just a stupid argument. You can't plan your life on some unknown disease you might get.

Okay, I will concede that debilitating diseases affect everyone. Let's be honest, though - we all know that the older you get, the more likely it is that you will have more serious health problems.

Are you going to pay their debt off? No? Then what do you care.

I'm specifically addressing the problem of doctor shortages in America. I care because it pains me to see people go without healthcare. Whenever I see a sick person at the homeless shelter I volunteer at, I think to myself, "If only they had accepted a normal student instead of a nontraditional student, we could have enough doctors to save this man."

Just kidding. But honestly, this issue is a serious one that is not going away time soon. There are actual people who are going without healthcare because of our doctor shortage.

Again I don't understand why it matters to you. I'm not going to med school so I can address the doctor shortage in the country. I'm going to go into a specialty I WANT to do for my own fulfillment just like almost everyone else.

Doesn't that seem just a little bit selfish to you?

Nontrads can provide the same level of care as anyone else.

I don't disagree with you at all. I'm just saying that they won't be around as long - which is a serious issue that shouldn't be taken lightly.

The fact that they don't practice as long (which isn't always true anyway) doesn't affect anyone but themselves;

Of course it isn't always true that nontraditional students don't practice as long. But I'm looking at averages. On average, nontraditional students won't be practicing as long. But to say that it "doesn't affect anyone but themselves" is a ridiculous notion that may be true in some sort of fantasy land but I'm talking about real people who are going without healthcare because of the shortage of doctors in this country.

It could also be argued that nontrads have a greater variety of life experiences to draw from.

Like I said earlier, the point of school is to prepare you for the real world. Not the other way around.

 

[BillyGee]

OP- read the book Blue Collar, Blue Scrubs. Entertaining read and might bring light to this issue

 

[masaraksh]

My viewpoint is that school & academia in many ways shelter you from 'real world'. And this is especially true in some US schools. By real world I mean life in the workforce & adulthood. Thats not to say that school doesn't teach you skills/knowledge.

 

[DrCharlemagne]

How can I be sure that a 20-something who thinks so little of others and their capacity to serve would be a decent physician and leader in a diverse team of healthcare professionals?

 

[gumdrops]

That's an interesting viewpoint, but it doesn't really address my original post. 😛

They might have lived "more interesting lives," but that still doesn't solve the doctor shortage problem.

Also, in your post you seemed to belittle people who "spent most of their lives in the school system." I disagree with your presumption that only real world experience seriously prepares you for medical school. Isn't the point of school to prepare you for the real world?

I think it's officially time to stop taking this thread seriously...NOW.

 

[breakmon]

I think it's officially time to stop taking this thread seriously...NOW.

I don't understand what you are getting at. Should every prospective engineer be forced to be a mechanic before studying engineering?

 

[darkjedi]

 

[breakmon]

...

Jelly school? What does that have to do with anything? I'm talking about medical school.

 

[gumdrops]

I don't understand what you are getting at. Should every prospective engineer be forced to be a mechanic before studying engineering?

Bookmark this thread and set yourself a reminder on Google Calendar or whatever you use to re-read it in three years. Then post your opinion. Would be one heck of an informative necrobump, not to mention you're going to cringe at yourself. If not a troll

Are you a possible reapplicant?

 

[NickNaylor]

I disagree with your presumption that only real world experience seriously prepares you for medical school. Isn't the point of school to prepare you for the real world?

Yeahhhhhhhhh... about that...

 

[breakmon]

Bookmark this thread and set yourself a reminder on Google Calendar or whatever you use to re-read it in three years. Then post your opinion. Would be one heck of an informative necrobump, not to mention you're going to cringe at yourself. If not a troll

Are you a possible reapplicant?

No, I'm not a reapplicant. I'm applying this summer with a 4.0 GPA and a 42 MCAT. I expect to get in the first time around. (And yes, I have plenty of volunteer and research experience.)

Yeahhhhhhhhh... about that...

Wow, great use of logic there, buddy. I'm dumbfoundead and stupefied by your infallible argument.

 

[aspirantmed]

Let's be honest, OP - you'll learn more about social determinants of health in a week volunteering for a safety-net hospital than you would in a semester-long medical sociology class.

Book knowledge matters, yeah, but it's no substitute for the practical experience where non-trad applicants so hugely outpace trads.

 

[gumdrops]

No, I'm not a reapplicant. I'm applying this summer with a 4.0 GPA and a 42 MCAT. I expect to get in the first time around. (And yes, I have plenty of volunteer and research experience.)

Someone's ridin' in on TROLLERSKATES

 

[darkjedi]

No, I'm not a reapplicant. I'm applying this summer with a 4.0 GPA and a 42 MCAT. I expect to get in the first time around. (And yes, I have plenty of volunteer and research experience.)

LOL yea ok

you poor naive child

 

[deleted407021]

I don't understand what you are getting at. Should every prospective engineer be forced to be a mechanic before studying engineering?

Bro, when people say experience, they mean the life kind. Learning how to be creative, draw form a body of knowledge and construct an original solution. Work with people who are having problems you are familiar with. Stop being obtuse and impertinent.

I think it's officially time to stop taking this thread seriously...NOW.

I agree. What a ridiculous idea to cultivate. Certainly no one in their right mind would think make these statements. Older applicants are now somehow obsolete because they might get sick and die sooner? They made a Twilight Zone episode about this. People's age doesn't determine what they get to do. And my lord, 30 40 and 50 years olds are old, you twonk.

 

[gumdrops]

Bro, when people say experience, they mean the life kind. Learning how to be creative, draw form a body of knowledge and construct an original solution. Work with people who are having problems you are familiar with. Stop being obtuse and impertinent.

I agree. What a ridiculous idea to cultivate. Certainly no one in their right mind would think make these statements. Older applicants are now somehow obsolete because they might get sick and die sooner? They made a Twilight Zone episode about this. People's age doesn't determine what they get to do. And my lord, 30 40 and 50 years olds are old, you twonk.

What were they thinking accepting me when I obviously run such a high risk of dying before finishing training?

 

[deleted407021]

No, I'm not a reapplicant. I'm applying this summer with a 4.0 GPA and a 42 MCAT. I expect to get in the first time around. (And yes, I have plenty of volunteer and research experience.)

/quote]

Pfft! LOL. Ok. Why not just make it a cool 45?

 

[deleted407021]

What were they thinking accepting me when I obviously run such a high risk of dying before finishing training?

Oh. I know. You should just check into an assisted living center, because you're just not going to be able to work long enough to be valuable in the eyes of *****s.

 

[breakmon]

Well, good job guys. You ruined what I thought would be good food for thought. I thought we were all mature adults here. I guess I was wrong. I'm done with this. You guys can keep derailing the thread if you want, I don't care any more.

 

[Psai]

There's no shortage of doctors in the places I want to be.

 

[Goro]

Some of my all-time best students have been in their 30s and 40s. If they retire after only 20-30 years, then a new medical school graduate will replace them.

See of the grad, and the length of the time in practice is irrelevant. Your logic seems to be when these older docs retire, there won't be anyone to replace them. Nonsensical!

(NOTE: Please don't derail this thread. I'm looking to have an open discussion on this topic.)

Personally, I sort of resent the idea of nontraditional students. I mean, it's one thing if they took a gap year or two. Whatever. But I was looking through the nontrad pre-med forum and some of the people there are in their late 30's.

That's ridiculous. By the time they get out of residency they'll be in their mid-40s. Who knows how many of them will find out in their 50s that they have a debilitating disease that forces them into retirement? And even if they are healthy, their careers won't be as long as normal doctors' careers.

We already have a shortage of doctors in this country. In my opinion, it's a more efficient use of everyone's resources if we focus on training younger students who can better address the doctor shortage in this country.

 

[kevinus]

OP would be valid if there were a lot more nontraditional students. However, the majority is still medical students in their early-mid 20s.

 

[deleted407021]

Well, good job guys. You ruined what I thought would be good food for thought. I thought we were all mature adults here. I guess I was wrong. I'm done with this. You guys can keep derailing the thread if you want, I don't care any more.

Well until you dragged your crazy arse through our forum, we were.

 

[Stoptheclot]

Gold Medal for Most Entertaining Offensive Thread of the Month!

 

[DrCharlemagne]

Well, good job guys. You ruined what I thought would be good food for thought. I thought we were all mature adults here. I guess I was wrong. I'm done with this. You guys can keep derailing the thread if you want, I don't care any more.

I thought mature adults were the crux of your "valid" concerns?

 

[darkjedi]

Well, good job guys. You ruined what I thought would be good food for thought. I thought we were all mature adults here. I guess I was wrong. I'm done with this. You guys can keep derailing the thread if you want, I don't care any more.

how i imagine OP

 

[sazerac]

(NOTE: Please don't derail this thread. I'm looking to have an open discussion on this topic.)

Personally, I sort of resent the idea of nontraditional students. I mean, it's one thing if they took a gap year or two. Whatever. But I was looking through the nontrad pre-med forum and some of the people there are in their late 30's.

That's ridiculous. By the time they get out of residency they'll be in their mid-40s. Who knows how many of them will find out in their 50s that they have a debilitating disease that forces them into retirement? And even if they are healthy, their careers won't be as long as normal doctors' careers.

We already have a shortage of doctors in this country. In my opinion, it's a more efficient use of everyone's resources if we focus on training younger students who can better address the doctor shortage in this country.

The crux of your argument is that non-trads have shorter careers and therefore valuable education resources are wasted on them.

Are you willing to follow through on your reasoning, and suggest that people with disomy of the X chromosome also waste space in medical school, since they statistically work vastly fewer hours per medical career (fewer hours per day, shorter career length, maternal leave, etc) than those who have a Y?

 

[frosted_flake]

Someone's ridin' in on TROLLERSKATES

I needed a laugh like that!!
Hahahaha 🤣

 

[DrCharlemagne]

The crux of your argument is that non-trads have shorter careers and therefore valuable education resources are wasted on them.

Are you willing to follow through on your reasoning, and suggest that people with disomy of the X chromosome also waste space in medical school, since they statistically work vastly fewer hours per medical career (fewer hours per day, shorter career length, maternal leave, etc) than those who have a Y?

I'd like to buy you a drank.

 

[circulus vitios]

(NOTE: Please don't derail this thread. I'm looking to have an open discussion on this topic.)

Personally, I sort of resent the idea of nontraditional students. I mean, it's one thing if they took a gap year or two. Whatever. But I was looking through the nontrad pre-med forum and some of the people there are in their late 30's.

That's ridiculous. By the time they get out of residency they'll be in their mid-40s. Who knows how many of them will find out in their 50s that they have a debilitating disease that forces them into retirement? And even if they are healthy, their careers won't be as long as normal doctors' careers.

We already have a shortage of doctors in this country. In my opinion, it's a more efficient use of everyone's resources if we focus on training younger students who can better address the doctor shortage in this country.

 

[deleted407021]

The crux of your argument is that non-trads have shorter careers and therefore valuable education resources are wasted on them.

Are you willing to follow through on your reasoning, and suggest that people with disomy of the X chromosome also waste space in medical school, since they statistically work vastly fewer hours per medical career (fewer hours per day, shorter career length, maternal leave, etc) than those who have a Y?

Let's give him a minute to Google what that means. I'm super curious to see what his opinion is.

 

[askamsky51]

My opinion is that it's threads like this that reinforce non-trad superiority and maturity which is what schools are looking for.

If you want the advantage, then go out and live a meaningful life first, then apply.

Or you can continue to whine and maybe just take a couple extra tries to get in. But you know, what do I know?

The median age at my school is 26-27 for matriculants. 30 is only the top of average.

 

[DR MOM]

And I kind of think you should not be allowed to become a doctor if you've never had to buy your own toilet paper.

There are reasons that schools are moving away from the K-MD path and that "non-traditional" is becoming the more traditional path at a lot of schools.

Medicine is a career and it is strange to me that people can commit to that career before they've experienced full-time employment. (That said, traditional students can also become great physicians!)

Even if some older students spend fewer years practicing, they bring important knowledge to their cohort, and I would not be surprised if they make better physicians. There are other ways to address physician shortages.

I will only be three years out of school, but those three years were important ones and I am so glad I decided not to apply while I was in school.

 

[Doctor Strange]

Well, good job guys. You ruined what I thought would be good food for thought. I thought we were all mature adults here. I guess I was wrong. I'm done with this. You guys can keep derailing the thread if you want, I don't care any more.

I feel like a "mature adult" would be able to make up more believable stats than 4.0/42. I mean, come on... lol

 

[No Limits]

Gold Medal for Most Entertaining Offensive Thread of the Month!

idk... there's been a lot of offensive threads lately. This is a

at best.

 

[gumdrops]

I needed a laugh like that!!
Hahahaha 🤣

Thanks, gurlfran! Your post made me happy 🙂

 

[Zelda840]

I can't even imagine how disastrous it would have been to let me be a doctor in my 20's. I may have been smart enough, but I definitely didn't have the emotional maturity. The thought of marriage, divorce, office politics, tight budgets, experiencing the first death of a loved one, etc....all during the already stressful medical school? Props to those young ones who can handle it. I certainly couldn't have at that age.

 

[engineer16]

The crux of your argument is that non-trads have shorter careers and therefore valuable education resources are wasted on them.

Are you willing to follow through on your reasoning, and suggest that people with disomy of the X chromosome also waste space in medical school, since they statistically work vastly fewer hours per medical career (fewer hours per day, shorter career length, maternal leave, etc) than those who have a Y?

Also why not just pluck people out of the nursery and designate them the candidates for med school? If you're concerned about career length then we should get people started on their training as soon as they can pick up a pencil.

 

[Harpsx]

Please adcom gods, let this person be asked about their opinion on nontrads at every interview! Thank you.

 

[deleted407021]

I can't even imagine how disastrous it would have been to let me be a doctor in my 20's. I may have been smart enough, but I definitely didn't have the emotional maturity. The thought of marriage, divorce, office politics, tight budgets, experiencing the first death of a loved one, etc....all during the already stressful medical school? Props to those young ones who can handle it. I certainly couldn't have at that age.

I've come to the same realization. Perhaps the next 2 years and the single gap year I plan to take will help get to that point I need to be at.

 

[Microglia]

I feel like a "mature adult" would be able to make up more believable stats than 4.0/42. I mean, come on... lol

There are people with those stats out there, but they're usually a lot more down to earth than OP...

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

(Seriously concerned about doctor shortage)

(Matches plastics)

 

[rain4venus]

a) I'm responding to this post as if it were not a troll post
b) You know nothing about the doctor shortage to which you are referring. If you did, you would actually change the OP to say basically the opposite of what it does now. i.e. We need more nontrads because they're far more likely to work in fields and locations where there are actually shortages.