What's your plan after the new 10.4% cuts for pain go through?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
I added an ortho tenant to my office. Im cutting back to 3 days a week.
What'd you do with your employees? How'd they feel about the time reduction?

When I cut back, I told my one employee that she can come in whenever she needs more hours. She can figure out something to do. I was just going to pay her at home and keep her pay level but I figured that would have been an awful idea.

Members don't see this ad.
 
thats part of the problem. the metrics we use are entirely subjective, unlike spine surgery where they can point to "improved canal capaciousness" (the exact words taken from a spine surgeon's notes on a patient with persistent pain after 3 level fusion) to show that their surgery "worked".

in addition, pain scores may be altered based on a patient's expectations or desires. how many times do we do an injection that not-so-surprisingly prompts the response "well, the shot didnt work. can i get percs now?"

we need a marker to use that is objective. CRP? catecholamine levels? CNTN1?

or these: An exploratory identification of biological markers of chronic musculoskeletal pain in the low back, neck, and shoulders - PubMed


common misconception, one that is derived from how we practice pain medicine.

it is about doing what is right for the patient. for a significant portion of the population, our focus on injections is not the right modality. neither are pills. lifestyle changes, changes in perception of pain, changes in expectations on pain control, improvement in functional capacity are much more important in the long run than an injection or a pill, particularly if it is an opioid.

unfortunately, we get blinded by $$$ to decide what treatments to "offer". in fact, im willing to bet a sizeable proportion of docs here will discharge a patient if they refuse shots - the modus operandi in the local community.


if i didnt feel i was making a difference, i would have just become a grouchy old guy that doesnt bother posting to encourage introspection on pain management, just does his 9-4 job, checks out mentally during the day, browses WSJ or tik tok etc., and spend the day musing on his golf swing and where to get good barbeque.

The second wisest words were ever spoken to me, "Everything in medicine gets boring after a while. And, when it does, all you're left with is the lifestyle."

The third wisest words was ever spoken to me, "Specialize in something that they'll never find a cure for."
 
  • Like
Reactions: 10 users
The second wisest words were ever spoken to me, "Everything in medicine gets boring after a while. And, when it does, all you're left with is the lifestyle."

The third wisest words was ever spoken to me, "Specialize in something that they'll never find a cure for."
Specialize in cardiology and have an office on third floor and put a sign that the elevator is out. You’ll have an easy job
 
Members don't see this ad :)
The second wisest words were ever spoken to me, "Everything in medicine gets boring after a while. And, when it does, all you're left with is the lifestyle."

The third wisest words was ever spoken to me, "Specialize in something that they'll never find a cure for."
Don’t leave us hanging..
What’s #1?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
The second wisest words were ever spoken to me, "Everything in medicine gets boring after a while. And, when it does, all you're left with is the lifestyle."

The third wisest words was ever spoken to me, "Specialize in something that they'll never find a cure for."
Fixed it:

Everything in medicine LIFE gets boring after a while

Treatment for this: Diverse interests
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
What'd you do with your employees? How'd they feel about the time reduction?

When I cut back, I told my one employee that she can come in whenever she needs more hours. She can figure out something to do. I was just going to pay her at home and keep her pay level but I figured that would have been an awful idea.
my office manager is cutting back anyway. My MA is also a marketer so she will be out of the office in high heels and a dress more than usual.

I gave the ortho mondays and thursdays and i decided to make mondays a procedure day so im only in the procedure room vs the exam rooms for now. We will see how it goes....he's not too busy yet.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
ive been told the sky is falling ever since medical school. we are now working on > 2 decades since that time

take home pay keeps going up, though.....
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Not true for all of us. Some of us just keep running faster on the treadmill.

im definitely running faster. not so much a treadmill. more like a hamster wheel. of course id like to make more by doing less. wouldnt we all?

btw, i just went on one of those, "mountain coasters". its like an alpine slide on the side of a mountain. 20 bucks a pop, line was out the door, and it took like 5 minutes. had to have had 2000 people ride/day. thats $40,000/day on a weekday. there are some up-front costs, but wow -- what a great business....
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
my office manager is cutting back anyway. My MA is also a marketer so she will be out of the office in high heels and a dress more than usual.

I gave the ortho mondays and thursdays and i decided to make mondays a procedure day so im only in the procedure room vs the exam rooms for now. We will see how it goes....he's not too busy yet.
Very good job! Are you planning on completely retiring? I know it's not an easy decision to make. I believe you're in your early 50s. Way to go!
 
it is about doing what is right for the patient. for a significant portion of the population, our focus on injections is not the right modality. neither are pills. lifestyle changes, changes in perception of pain, changes in expectations on pain control, improvement in functional capacity are much more important in the long run than an injection or a pill, particularly if it is an opioid.
these are important factors to consider, more so in certain patient demographics...patients with psych issues, medicaids, etc.

funny thing is, while 50% of my patients do have history of depression, anxiety, coping issues, etc, 80 to 90% of my patients do benefit from interventional pain procedures.

so I have a very different view of pain patients...they actually benefit from what I do for them, interventionally. So I don't believe I'm overpaid by payers.

In fact, my patients pay out-of-pocket to get injections. I doubt you get that at wherever you work. I'm not saying you don't have skills to be properly compensated, you are just stuck in the system that doesn't reward outcome.

When I was working in VA, interventional pain guys limit how many procedure they schedule in a week (even though they only do procedure one a day week). At the same time, they have a psych PhD in the department who does "chronic pain management" and program TENS unit.

Why not let the next guy handle the chronic pain and "improve functional capacity" when one's income is capitated? why take additional risks of doing interventional pain procedures when there's just risks and no rewards?

I surely hope when one day you or your family need good interventionists to perform procedures, there will be enough of us who stick around to provide these all-risk-no-rewards procedures to you. At least we won't be telling to you to focus on "change your perception of pain and improve functional capacity".
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
A lot of virtue signaling amongst pain doctors in this forum, and I do not believe this forum represents the field of pain as a whole.

BTW - My pain fellowship is the premier pain psychology location in the USA. They publish more than anyone and the biggest names in pain psych work there...Can't say it actually does anything though. I personally think it's a joke.
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: 3 users
Members don't see this ad :)
Very good job! Are you planning on completely retiring? I know it's not an easy decision to make. I believe you're in your early 50s. Way to go!
cant fully retire until my 11 y/o gets to college and i dont have to pay child support
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
A lot of virtue signaling amongst pain doctors in this forum, and I do not believe this forum represents the field of pain as a whole.

BTW - My pain fellowship is the premier pain psychology location in the USA. They publish more than anyone and the biggest names in pain psych work there...Can't say it actually does anything though. I personally think it's a joke.
academics? Different
 
  • Haha
Reactions: 1 user
these are important factors to consider, more so in certain patient demographics...patients with psych issues, medicaids, etc.

funny thing is, while 50% of my patients do have history of depression, anxiety, coping issues, etc, 80 to 90% of my patients do benefit from interventional pain procedures.

so I have a very different view of pain patients...they actually benefit from what I do for them, interventionally. So I don't believe I'm overpaid by payers.

In fact, my patients pay out-of-pocket to get injections. I doubt you get that at wherever you work. I'm not saying you don't have skills to be properly compensated, you are just stuck in the system that doesn't reward outcome.

When I was working in VA, interventional pain guys limit how many procedure they schedule in a week (even though they only do procedure one a day week). At the same time, they have a psych PhD in the department who does "chronic pain management" and program TENS unit.

Why not let the next guy handle the chronic pain and "improve functional capacity" when one's income is capitated? why take additional risks of doing interventional pain procedures when there's just risks and no rewards?

I surely hope when one day you or your family need good interventionists to perform procedures, there will be enough of us who stick around to provide these all-risk-no-rewards procedures to you. At least we won't be telling to you to focus on "change your perception of pain and improve functional capacity".
i honestly initially believed that every single injection i did helped... but then i realized that patients will mislead you because they do not want to upset or lose you as a physician. problem is, in the limited amount of time we have with patients, we really dont and cant get down to what is really going on with patients and we hear what we want to hear - that we are gods amongst doctors...

for the most part, we all do injections the same, use the same meds (even with dex/depo dispute), and place medications all in the same place. we for the most part have the same criteria of when to do injections, yet some here state that their injections are always beneficial.

a local competitor states the same as you have, all the time. injections always helps. never had a failure. epidurals always in the right spot. stims 90% go to implant. implants 100% success rate. ITP always reduce patients pain, at micro dosing.

but its actually a significant part of my business seeing his failures. probably 70% of his SCS that have been explanted. the blobograms on his epidurals. the "well, they never helped and when i tried to tell him he wouldnt listen, so i decided to find someone else". at one point i was seeing up to 10 of his failures per week.



oh and the vast majority of data - with the exception of those from Padukah, Ky - are all very equivocal about benefits from interventional procedures.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
A lot of virtue signaling amongst pain doctors in this forum, and I do not believe this forum represents the field of pain as a whole.

BTW - My pain fellowship is the premier pain psychology location in the USA. They publish more than anyone and the biggest names in pain psych work there...Can't say it actually does anything though. I personally think it's a joke.

I'm curious what virtue is being signaled?
 
BTW - My pain fellowship is the premier pain psychology location in the USA. They publish more than anyone and the biggest names in pain psych work there...Can't say it actually does anything though. I personally think it's a joke.
Robert Jamison at BWH?
 
Last edited:
A lot of virtue signaling amongst pain doctors in this forum, and I do not believe this forum represents the field of pain as a whole.

BTW - My pain fellowship is the premier pain psychology location in the USA. They publish more than anyone and the biggest names in pain psych work there...Can't say it actually does anything though. I personally think it's a joke.
A quality pain psych program will help patients develop an internal locus of control for managing their pain. Sorely lacking in many people who expect someone else to solve all their problems with a pill, shot or surgery. Mayo has a really good pain psych dept. Psych doesn’t solve everything, and I love doing procedures, but it can be invaluable to give someone a feeling of control over their pain.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
A quality pain psych program will help patients develop an internal locus of control for managing their pain. Sorely lacking in many people who expect someone else to solve all their problems with a pill, shot or surgery. Mayo has a really good pain psych dept. Psych doesn’t solve everything, and I love doing procedures, but it can be invaluable to give someone a feeling of control over their pain.
Pain psych is cultural.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Pain psych is cultural.
For sure, but that doesn’t mean that someone’s perception of pain is a fixed idea or can’t change.
Although honestly I discuss this less and less with patients every year, because usually they just get mad and claim I’m telling them their pain “is all in their head.” I save these talks for the fibromyalgia “pain from head to toe” folks, but it’s usually a waste of both of our time. A few come around.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
For sure, but that doesn’t mean that someone’s perception of pain is a fixed idea or can’t change.
Although honestly I discuss this less and less with patients every year, because usually they just get mad and claim I’m telling them their pain “is all in their head.” I save these talks for the fibromyalgia “pain from head to toe” folks, but it’s usually a waste of both of our time. A few come around.
Your first sentence gets no argument from me.

I have no ability to send to pain psych for anything other than SCS. No one will go. I've tried countless times and ultimately quit bringing it up.

Rural GA pts aren't gonna go...Period.

I had a woman today who was in the ED a few days ago with a panic attack. She has PTSD after getting in a wreck and someone died. She won't even see a psychologist for that, and I'm gonna get her in pain psych?

If you tell me I need pain psych for severe stenosis with 3 level spondy I'm gonna destroy you on your social media page and Google reviews.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Your first sentence gets no argument from me.

I have no ability to send to pain psych for anything other than SCS. No one will go. I've tried countless times and ultimately quit bringing it up.

Rural GA pts aren't gonna go...Period.

I had a woman today who was in the ED a few days ago with a panic attack. She has PTSD after getting in a wreck and someone died. She won't even see a psychologist for that, and I'm gonna get her in pain psych?

If you tell me I need pain psych for severe stenosis with 3 level spondy I'm gonna destroy you on your social media page and Google reviews.

I'm sure steroids are only going to help her untreated severe panic attacks, anxiety, and PTSD...

Seriously though, if someone is that severe and is not being treated, I'd go full stop on elective pain treatment. Perhaps a letter from a psychologist to begin your treatment is the nudge your patient needs to get appropriate care. Same reason I don't inject people that are using hard drugs, have untreated diabetes, or severe untreated cardiovascular issues such as severe HTN.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I'm sure steroids are only going to help her untreated severe panic attacks, anxiety, and PTSD...

Seriously though, if someone is that severe and is not being treated, I'd go full stop on elective pain treatment. Perhaps a letter from a psychologist to begin your treatment is the nudge your patient needs to get appropriate care. Same reason I don't inject people that are using hard drugs, have untreated diabetes, or severe untreated cardiovascular issues such as severe HTN.
I'm not doing anything with her.

She's in PT right now, and just got a denial for surgery from one of my spine surgery partners. She has osteoporosis and we're not injecting her.

I ablated her in Dec and we got...Some benefit.
 
I've started telling patients that I can get them half way there but it's up to them to do the other half which may include PT, psych, weight loss, smoking cessation, anti-inflammatory diet etc. I'm becoming much more wholistic as I finish out my career
 
  • Like
Reactions: 7 users
I try the pain psych spiel and it works like 1 in a 100.

I am a lot more blunt now in telling patients I have nothing else to offer and I don't think medication or procedures will help - they need weight loss or PT, etc. It kind of pisses them off but it's resulted in fewer wasteful visits. We have a lot of Medicaid and we screen our referrals but many make it through who really won't benefit.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I've started telling patients that I can get them half way there but it's up to them to do the other half which may include PT, psych, weight loss, smoking cessation, anti-inflammatory diet etc. I'm becoming much more wholistic as I finish out my career
Not a bad line. Stolen...
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
so pain psych isnt a spiel, not when you are trying to convince them that they have control over their pain and how much suffering they must accept from that pain.

im guessing the groundwork hasnt been laid for the patient to come to the self-awareness that they can impact positively their pain - or at least how to avoid negatively impacting it.

honestly, in the 10 minutes ppl allot for most follow up appointments, there is no way that this kind of conversation will lead to anything other than patient frustration.


at the initial appointment, i ask patients "doesnt the pain make you frustrated, anxious, or even depressed?" if they say yes, or do not get angry with that question, then i mention about how changing our perspectives on pain and trying to disconnect the pain from these emotional responses can be helpful in the long run, even if it doesnt change the pain.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I try the pain psych spiel and it works like 1 in a 100.

I am a lot more blunt now in telling patients I have nothing else to offer and I don't think medication or procedures will help - they need weight loss or PT, etc. It kind of pisses them off but it's resulted in fewer wasteful visits. We have a lot of Medicaid and we screen our referrals but many make it through who really won't benefit.
Agree, people they should see psych for thei pain. My spiel is something along the lines of “Living with chronic pain can cause depression and anxiety, which increase your stress and make it more difficult to cope with your pain. Do you feel like may have depression or anxiety? Do you already see a psychologist or psychiatrist? Would you be interested in a referral? I don’t expect it to take your pain away but it can help with the depression and anxiety, which may then make it easier to cope with your pain.”
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I just tell them the suffering is all in their head and the pain started in the joint/spine/nerve but the head has to deal with it. Some meds help at the source, most do not.
 
I've started telling patients that I can get them half way there but it's up to them to do the other half which may include PT, psych, weight loss, smoking cessation, anti-inflammatory diet etc. I'm becoming much more wholistic as I finish out my career
Definitely poaching thank one. Thank you.

I am just nearing about a quarter of the way into my career and have found myself becoming more blunt with patients as time goes on
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
im 52.....everything hurts when i stay still, so i tell patients i have first hand knowledge on what they need to do. Some believe it....some dont.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Top