When do you plan to retire?

[FatherPsychiatry]

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Lots of interesting financial discussions in other threads, but I am curious about your thoughts regarding when you plan to retire. Obviously we can never know for certain but I think a lot of us have rough estimates (ie, "FI" by age / year x, etc). I think one of the unique aspects of psychiatry, compared to most (if not all) other medical specialties, is that you can really practice in some way until you're dead. During my residency there was a 70+ year old attending who we thought died multiple times while/after seeing patients but he was actually just asleep.

Poll is broad but you could delve into nuances like, cutting back from FT at age 48, then coasting at 50% until fully cutting the cord at 60 etc.

Me - thinking I'll hit FI in my early 50s (~10 years) but I'm enjoying living large and don't experience much stress at my job, so could see myself doing this at least till 55 easy. Probably cut to 50-80% by then to enjoy time with the kids when they are teens and starting college. Then, I don't know, either go back to 80-100% or even down to 20%-ish. Unless things really change a lot in the field or I get some bad disability, or I find some huge new passion, I don't think I'll ever fully stop practicing.

 

[comp1]

I think retirement is exceedingly challenging to do right. Finances are not the issue, at least for professionals. The issue is finding meaning outside work. One day can be very long and kids/grandkids have their own lives. I've seen many, many people fail spectacularly at this. Heck, retirement failure is a core part of my practice. Personally, I don't think I'm strong or smart enough for retirement, so I'm definitely looking at 70+ if I survive that long. My family practice grandfather died about 3 months after retirement and that's probably the way to do it.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Yeah I mean with psych it's so easy to even just have a very part time outpatient practice or do some intermittent contract work coverage, I feel like a lot of people don't truly "retire" completely. Definitely one of the major benefits of psychiatry as a specialty.

It also alleviates basically any financial stress as you can still clear 100-200K working 1-2 days/week and not even have to touch your retirement accounts yet depending on your lifestyle if you're partially retired.

 

[Merovinge]

I have absolutely no idea what I will do once we are empty nester's in our early-mid 50's since I expect my partner to be long since retired. Toying around the idea of buying a 40-50' trawler and puttering around the Mediterranean for a year or two, but who knows, tech might be good enough for me to still work a day or so a week while doing that 🤣 .

 

[TexasPhysician]

I voted based on “partially retiring”. I have no interest right now in ever fully retiring. Hoping to be doing well enough by early 50’s to do whatever I want.

 

[finalpsychyear]

Everything should be laddering up and then laddering down. Thats my goal. This allows you to figure out outside hobbies, activities and social groups.

People that find issues go to extremes. 50-60 hours to 0. You need time to adjust to the free time as odd as that sounds and then you can slowly drop clinical time as you have time for other activities/hobbies/learning/volunteer etc. You might surprise yourself and find you actually start enjoying work more once you reach the point of it making little to no differencec in your finances and/or balanced with a good chunk of free time for other interests the other days.

I've always been about reaching FIRE asap while not sacrificing the present. Retirement is a process. I plan to start dabbling with it in the next 5 years as its equally important to me to maintain prime level physical fucntion perhaps even more so then the actual retirement numbers.

 

[Bartelby]

The idea of having a 3-day or even 4-day weekend every week sounds appealing. I could probably switch to that now, but would still like to save more and find it tough to decide what I would give up in terms of professional commitments to trim down to less than 5 days per week.

So probably by my 50s I want to work 4 days per week or less, but I am not sure if I will actually stop working unless health or other external conditions prevent it.

 

[finalpsychyear]

The idea of having a 3-day or even 4-day weekend every week sounds appealing. I could probably switch to that now, but would still like to save more and find it tough to decide what I would give up in terms of professional commitments to trim down to less than 5 days per week.

So probably by my 50s I want to work 4 days per week or less, but I am not sure if I will actually stop working unless health or other external conditions prevent it.

I like it. Lets say markets keep the overall trajectory upside going aside from 12-18 mo bear market coming soon imo.

2030: 4 day week hopefully in fire territory
2033: 3 day. Work for fun
2035: 1-2 day. Work for cog stim

 

[2025DandW]

I am hoping to retire at my full SS retirement age, which is fast approaching. I can think of lots of things I want to do before I leave this earth, but I am struggling to see myself fully retire even with my FI. I am in the one more year club right now. I recently had a college roommate die, and I am thinking I don’t want to die working. I am semi-retired, for what it’s worth, but I’m still doing locums. My current gig is actually more stressful then my job prior to retirement; however, I can take off whenever I want from this job versus my pre-retirement job where I had 9 weeks off only on paper. I was easily able to put 4 kids through college and buy houses for several kids and at least one other family member. I tend to be frugal, but I suffer from the mindset that what I have is not enough; even though it is more than enough given my frugality. Maybe I spend too much time comparing myself to other Bogleheads, or I just need to take the plunge and see what happens.

 

[finalpsychyear]

I am hoping to retire at my full SS retirement age, which is fast approaching. I can think of lots of things I want to do before I leave this earth, but I am struggling to see myself fully retire even with my FI. I am in the one more year club right now. I recently had a college roommate die, and I am thinking I don’t want to die working. I am semi-retired, for what it’s worth, but I’m still doing locums. My current gig is actually more stressful then my job prior to retirement; however, I can take off whenever I want from this job versus my pre-retirement job where I had 9 weeks off only on paper. I was easily able to put 4 kids through college and buy houses for several kids and at least one other family member. I tend to be frugal, but I suffer from the mindset that what I have is not enough; even though it is more than enough given my frugality. Maybe I spend too much time comparing myself to other Bogleheads, or I just need to take the plunge and see what happens.

You have done a lot for your kids and family. When u are nearing ss fra ur identity is tied to medicine. Similar to my parents friends who are pushing 70 and over they keep working and take a few trips yearly. They dont have hobbies and ger bored when not working. Escaping medicine needs to be planned out over many years and hitting financial goals is obviously part of it. You need to figure it out sooner otherwise you'll be asking this same question 5-10 years from now.

 

[Sushirolls]

Once my farm prep is done.
Bills paid.
Some cash reserves.

I'm out.
Going to die on a tractor, with my final breath perfumed by diesel exhaust.

*When I started as a med student I thought I would practice until my license was taken from me. Now, I won't even look back, nor reminisce about the doctor days.

 

[PsyDr]

I wonder how many patients had a therapist die in their session? It can't be zero.

 

[Sushirolls]

None - because pts just thought they fell asleep again. /Joke

 

[clozareal]

Our net worth just hit 7 figures this past year. It was -$300k when I finished fellowship.

The plan is to become coast FI in about 10 years (mid 40s) when my spouse will likely retire, which will reduce future social security income, increase need to spend on health insurance, decreased retirement contributions.

In 15 years is when we would hit traditional FI at which point I'll see if I want to continue working. This is around the age where our kids are going to college so depending on where they go and if there's a huge inflation in college price, I might want to keep working to cash flow their college expenses as we're putting the equivalent of what state school would cost into their 529 right now. It'll be nice to have the freedom not to be tied to income from work and to work only because I want to.

This is assuming 4% withdrawal rate, 7% nominal return and 3.88% real, and 20% savings rate although we've been saving 30+% since fellowship ended. Our reduction of sequence of return risk is in international stocks and real estate investments and the ability to continue working.

 

[bGMx]

Our net worth just hit 7 figures this past year. It was -$300k when I finished fellowship.

When did you complete fellowship? I need an x-axis for that pretty Y.

 

[clozareal]

When did you complete fellowship? I need an x-axis for that pretty Y.

4 years ago

 

[Merovinge]

4 years ago

Really well done, is your spouse in medicine?

 

[Jules A]

View attachment 415869

I wonder how many patients had a therapist die in their session? It can't be zero.

Worked with an old psychiatrist who was brilliant up until his early 70s. He had a stroke while seeing a patient and returned to the office shortly after. It was sad and even more sad for those who picked up his patients after he was forced to retire. The last several years became the common write whatever they ask for scenario.

Spouse and I are done as soon as Medicare eligible or in COBRA range if the hospitals are annoying us.

 

[clozareal]

Really well done, is your spouse in medicine?

No but my spouse makes around what the average psychiatrist makes. I make above 95th percentile for all psychiatrists.

 

[Wilf]

Assuming AI does not make the decision for us, I really hope to retire by early 60s at latest. There is SO MUCH MORE to life than work. I could retire today and fill the rest of my days with likely more happiness than working if I had the financial resources. That said, I am currently in a position that is >50% administration, and if I could get a job that was 100% administration/executive, I may want to work a little longer.

 

[Wilf]

*When I started as a med student I thought I would practice until my license was taken from me. Now, I won't even look back, nor reminisce about the doctor days.

This is sort of how I feel. I greatly misjudged how much autonomy physicians have, or it has changed dramatically in the past 10-20 years, or probably both. The lack of autonomy/freedom is one of the biggest disappointments I have had with psychiatry. And no matter what anyone here says, the field has become less attractive over the past 10 years because of the massive proliferation of midlevels, only the extent of which is up for debate.

 

[FatherPsychiatry]

I am hoping to retire at my full SS retirement age, which is fast approaching. I can think of lots of things I want to do before I leave this earth, but I am struggling to see myself fully retire even with my FI. I am in the one more year club right now. I recently had a college roommate die, and I am thinking I don’t want to die working. I am semi-retired, for what it’s worth, but I’m still doing locums. My current gig is actually more stressful then my job prior to retirement; however, I can take off whenever I want from this job versus my pre-retirement job where I had 9 weeks off only on paper. I was easily able to put 4 kids through college and buy houses for several kids and at least one other family member. I tend to be frugal, but I suffer from the mindset that what I have is not enough; even though it is more than enough given my frugality. Maybe I spend too much time comparing myself to other Bogleheads, or I just need to take the plunge and see what happens.

This is my father in law. Physician who put all his kids through college + grad schools, helped by houses for them, and only "retired" (ie, forced out of the hospital when he couldn't keep up) when his recently diagnosed chronic illness progressed much faster than standard for the condition, and led to quickly being homebound and ultimately dying. Besides the above spending he was frugal, and carried that sensibility into retirement, which I am sure partly led to having the nest egg that he did. I don't think the last few years of his life were as comfortable as he deserved, which unfortunately was also due to his frugality.

The nest egg is much larger than it was since he retired, and died, and yes although a big part of that is because of the immense run up of the stock market over the last 5+ years, I think we (kids and in-laws) would have much preferred he spent some of that to make his life more enjoyable in the last few years. I know its hard to teach an old dog new tricks and all, but at least for me, also naturally frugal, it motivated me to learn "how to spend." I have found Morgan Housel's books very helpful in this regard.

 

[finalpsychyear]

This is my father in law. Physician who put all his kids through college + grad schools, helped by houses for them, and only "retired" (ie, forced out of the hospital when he couldn't keep up) when his recently diagnosed chronic illness progressed much faster than standard for the condition, and led to quickly being homebound and ultimately dying. Besides the above spending he was frugal, and carried that sensibility into retirement, which I am sure partly led to having the nest egg that he did. I don't think the last few years of his life were as comfortable as he deserved, which unfortunately was also due to his frugality.

The nest egg is much larger than it was since he retired, and died, and yes although a big part of that is because of the immense run up of the stock market over the last 5+ years, I think we (kids and in-laws) would have much preferred he spent some of that to make his life more enjoyable in the last few years. I know its hard to teach an old dog new tricks and all, but at least for me, also naturally frugal, it motivated me to learn "how to spend." I have found Morgan Housel's books very helpful in this regard.

I am seeing older physicians who retired not even spending the principal or growth on there investments. With SS, dividends, and interest esp those who worked 30+ years.

The other issue is you having worked so long have only known how to add money to your savings and see it keep growing. Its an adjustment to start to chip away at it. Easier said then done but maybe you have to be very deliberate in this process. Getting out early with maybe less money than if you worked till 60 or laddering into it like part time only work is maybe one of the answers.

 

[clozareal]

For these folks who have a hard time spending money, which is the case for many physicians and high income earners who are so good at saving but then that habit becomes ingrained and fear based, I highly recommend Bill Perkins' book Die With Zero. The title is a bit misleading because it's not about using up all your money by the time you die, but rather avoiding the common outcome where people save excessively and leave behind large unused wealth because they delayed living.

There are certain times in your life that if you don't have experiences during that chapter, you won't get it back (i.e., spending time with your kids when they are little, traveling when you have the health and stamina to do so, giving money to your kids earlier when it actually matters more for them like buying a house or having a wedding or traveling when young or helping them with ambitious projects that require $$$ or helping with grandchild care costs). Each chapter has a window and some experiences can only happen/are best during certain ages and life circumstances. If you delay them too long while focusing only on saving money as amny physicians do, you risk missing the chapter entirely.

 

[Stagg737]

I'm the "other" because it depends on several things financially (potential inheritance and wife's career) as well as how we're defining "retire". Idk that I could ever plan to fully retire in the sense that I feel like I'll always want to do some kind of work, even if it's in a field outside of medicine. Imo retirement doesn't mean you stop working, it means you have the financial freedom to work however you want doing whatever you want, and there's too many things I want to do to just lay around when I'm done with medicine.

Ideally, I'd like to hit FIRE by mid-50's and be able to shift into either a very part-time clinical role (10-12 hours/wk) or completely give up clinical work and shift to a purely educational/admin role within a SOM. My favorite part of my job is being able to teach medical students and residents and have them teach me about things I don't know. I find myself getting progressively more burnt out with my clinical work other than those 2-3 cases per month that are really unique or interesting (AIE, CJD, heavy metal poisoning, etc). If I won the Powerball tomorrow I'd likely retire and pivot to a completely different area outside of medicine, but I don't play the lottery so probably going to be sticking with around here for awhile.

 

[Stagg737]

This is my father in law. Physician who put all his kids through college + grad schools, helped by houses for them, and only "retired" (ie, forced out of the hospital when he couldn't keep up) when his recently diagnosed chronic illness progressed much faster than standard for the condition, and led to quickly being homebound and ultimately dying. Besides the above spending he was frugal, and carried that sensibility into retirement, which I am sure partly led to having the nest egg that he did. I don't think the last few years of his life were as comfortable as he deserved, which unfortunately was also due to his frugality.

The nest egg is much larger than it was since he retired, and died, and yes although a big part of that is because of the immense run up of the stock market over the last 5+ years, I think we (kids and in-laws) would have much preferred he spent some of that to make his life more enjoyable in the last few years. I know its hard to teach an old dog new tricks and all, but at least for me, also naturally frugal, it motivated me to learn "how to spend." I have found Morgan Housel's books very helpful in this regard.

For these folks who have a hard time spending money, which is the case for many physicians and high income earners who are so good at saving but then that habit becomes ingrained and fear based, I highly recommend Bill Perkins' book Die With Zero. The title is a bit misleading because it's not about using up all your money by the time you die, but rather avoiding the common outcome where people save excessively and leave behind large unused wealth because they delayed living.

There are certain times in your life that if you don't have experiences during that chapter, you won't get it back (i.e., spending time with your kids when they are little, traveling when you have the health and stamina to do so, giving money to your kids earlier when it actually matters more for them like buying a house or having a wedding or traveling when young or helping them with ambitious projects that require $$$ or helping with grandchild care costs). Each chapter has a window and some experiences can only happen/are best during certain ages and life circumstances. If you delay them too long while focusing only on saving money as amny physicians do, you risk missing the chapter entirely.

I think both of these points are fair, but I do think it's also dependent on what your values are. Getting the "high score" until you die probably isn't the healthiest mindset, but for some people it's what drives them and makes them happy. If it's not causing them distress, good for them.

I'd also argue that some people truly value their lineage and leaving as much as they can behind to create generational wealth for their family is really important. I'd agree with Cloz that spending wisely along the way is a smarter way to accomplish this than just hoarding until death to leave a large inheritance when family needed the money sooner, but for some people they legitimately feel better knowing they're providing for their family than spending it on possessions or experiences for themselves. I know this is especially important to many people who grew up in poverty or close to it who have managed to save enough to provide their kids with a comfortable life and want to make sure their descendants have the security they never had when they were young.

 

[Merovinge]

I think both of these points are fair, but I do think it's also dependent on what your values are. Getting the "high score" until you die probably isn't the healthiest mindset, but for some people it's what drives them and makes them happy. If it's not causing them distress, good for them.

I'd also argue that some people truly value their lineage and leaving as much as they can behind to create generational wealth for their family is really important. I'd agree with Cloz that spending wisely along the way is a smarter way to accomplish this than just hoarding until death to leave a large inheritance when family needed the money sooner, but for some people they legitimately feel better knowing they're providing for their family than spending it on possessions or experiences for themselves. I know this is especially important to many people who grew up in poverty or close to it who have managed to save enough to provide their kids with a comfortable life and want to make sure their descendants have the security they never had when they were young.

I'm not sure reinforcing a trauma response, even if done in a prosocial way, is what we want to be supporting. Dumping huge amounts of money on your grandchildren might make you believe you are doing something good, but the data suggests this money does not create longstanding lineages of wealth. There needs to be a lot of forethought into how to do this as there is very real risk of causing inadvertent harm.

Now if someone wants to provide someone a reasonable 20's fund, helping with school or a house downpayment, spend on nice/memorable extended family vacations, there are a lot of reasonable ways to help family out. My wife's partner is nearing 80 as a specialty surgeon attending for 50 years and just can't hang it up. I'm not sure if it's the meaning from work, not wanting to be at home all day, or trying to run up his already ridiculously high score, but I just can't imagine thinking this is a good thing to be lauded. He's a great surgeon that somehow still has his manual dexterity but he forgets a lot of things... I'm not saying this is the worst thing in the world by any stretch, but also not sure it is wise to laud it either.

 

[Stagg737]

I'm not sure reinforcing a trauma response, even if done in a prosocial way, is what we want to be supporting. Dumping huge amounts of money on your grandchildren might make you believe you are doing something good, but the data suggests this money does not create longstanding lineages of wealth. There needs to be a lot of forethought into how to do this as there is very real risk of causing inadvertent harm.

Now if someone wants to provide someone a reasonable 20's fund, helping with school or a house downpayment, spend on nice/memorable extended family vacations, there are a lot of reasonable ways to help family out. My wife's partner is nearing 80 as a specialty surgeon attending for 50 years and just can't hang it up. I'm not sure if it's the meaning from work, not wanting to be at home all day, or trying to run up his already ridiculously high score, but I just can't imagine thinking this is a good thing to be lauded. He's a great surgeon that somehow still has his manual dexterity but he forgets a lot of things... I'm not saying this is the worst thing in the world by any stretch, but also not sure it is wise to laud it either.

I don't think it's a trauma response at all to not want your kids to have to worry about things like if they can pay for their kids to play peewee sport or how they'll pay for their kids to see a doctor or never have to worry about going hungry. Kind of a weird take that you'd assume that someone wanting their kids to have a better life than they had and feel secure is a trauma response. I would just call that being a decent parent.

I also realize that just passing on a bunch of money doesn't create ongoing wealth for future generations. It's just as much about passing on the right knowledge and practices as it is about the actual money. Regardless, you can't have longstanding lineages of wealth without having wealth, and typically to create generational wealth someone has to...generate wealth. Like I said, just going for the high score for the sake of it probably isn't healthy, and I wouldn't advocate for someone to sacrifice their well-being to try and leave their kids with a large inheritance. That said, I think that the majority of people would choose to leave their loved ones with enough to build security and continue growing that wealth for their children than leave them with nothing or close to nothing.

 

[finalpsychyear]

I don't think it's a trauma response at all to not want your kids to have to worry about things like if they can pay for their kids to play peewee sport or how they'll pay for their kids to see a doctor or never have to worry about going hungry. Kind of a weird take that you'd assume that someone wanting their kids to have a better life than they had and feel secure is a trauma response. I would just call that being a decent parent.

I also realize that just passing on a bunch of money doesn't create ongoing wealth for future generations. It's just as much about passing on the right knowledge and practices as it is about the actual money. Regardless, you can't have longstanding lineages of wealth without having wealth, and typically to create generational wealth someone has to...generate wealth. Like I said, just going for the high score for the sake of it probably isn't healthy, and I wouldn't advocate for someone to sacrifice their well-being to try and leave their kids with a large inheritance. That said, I think that the majority of people would choose to leave their loved ones with enough to build security and continue growing that wealth for their children than leave them with nothing or close to nothing.

I plan to teach kids extensively abt money at an eatly age. Let them have summer jobs. Drive basic simple cars. If im lucky to have a trust it will be tiered to certain life milestones: college, grad school, along with age. Then i hope they can pass that on.

 

[Merovinge]

I don't think it's a trauma response at all to not want your kids to have to worry about things like if they can pay for their kids to play peewee sport or how they'll pay for their kids to see a doctor or never have to worry about going hungry. Kind of a weird take that you'd assume that someone wanting their kids to have a better life than they had and feel secure is a trauma response. I would just call that being a decent parent.

I also realize that just passing on a bunch of money doesn't create ongoing wealth for future generations. It's just as much about passing on the right knowledge and practices as it is about the actual money. Regardless, you can't have longstanding lineages of wealth without having wealth, and typically to create generational wealth someone has to...generate wealth. Like I said, just going for the high score for the sake of it probably isn't healthy, and I wouldn't advocate for someone to sacrifice their well-being to try and leave their kids with a large inheritance. That said, I think that the majority of people would choose to leave their loved ones with enough to build security and continue growing that wealth for their children than leave them with nothing or close to nothing.

I'd also argue that some people truly value their lineage and leaving as much as they can behind to create generational wealth for their family is really important. I'd agree with Cloz that spending wisely along the way is a smarter way to accomplish this than just hoarding until death to leave a large inheritance when family needed the money sooner, but for some people they legitimately feel better knowing they're providing for their family than spending it on possessions or experiences for themselves. I know this is especially important to many people who grew up in poverty or close to it who have managed to save enough to provide their kids with a comfortable life and want to make sure their descendants have the security they never had when they were young.

There is a huge golf between not worrying about being able to see a doctor/go hungry and leaving "as much as they can behind to create generational wealth". The later is clearly not well defined but Gemini is reporting 1.5-10 million being a reasonable definition at present. Virtually anyone would agree that helping your children out some with some amount of stability is a reasonable endeavor but there is large room for debate if a Donald Trump sized inheritance or say a mid 6 figure inheritance leads to a better outcome for your children (which is presumably what you are optimizing for). This idea (particularly in the US) that somehow just throwing larger amount of money at something leads to better outcomes is consistently shown to not be the case in actual data.

 

[Stagg737]

There is a huge golf between not worrying about being able to see a doctor/go hungry and leaving "as much as they can behind to create generational wealth". The later is clearly not well defined but Gemini is reporting 1.5-10 million being a reasonable definition at present. Virtually anyone would agree that helping your children out some with some amount of stability is a reasonable endeavor but there is large room for debate if a Donald Trump sized inheritance or say a mid 6 figure inheritance leads to a better outcome for your children (which is presumably what you are optimizing for). This idea (particularly in the US) that somehow just throwing larger amount of money at something leads to better outcomes is consistently shown to not be the case in actual data.

Sure, and I agree with most of that. Like I said, the lessons on managing money is just as important as actually passing the wealth on. It’s why so many lottery winners tend to go bankrupt, because they have no idea how to actually manage wealth.

That said, if you instill those lessons then leaving your kids with at least mid six figures and ideally low seven figures will ensure they can grow that into a truly secure situation by the time they retire.

Maybe better example is retirees who were perfectly capable of saving for a comfortable retirement but decided they wanted to YOLO and now they’re seeing me because they’re 75 and depressed because they can’t afford the lifestyle they used to have or want to have. IMO having too much or overestimating how much you needed is a far better problem to have than underestimating it and being miserable. Unless you were miserable getting to that point of course, which imo no physician should need to be unless they’re completely inflexible with their career/lifestyle.

 

[Monocles]

Just renewed my med license (two year cycle) for hopefully the last time! I am already part time and can't wait to leave medicine altogether.

ETA retirement age 37-38, unless the market absolutely craps itself.

 

[comp1]

Just renewed my med license (two year cycle) for hopefully the last time! I am already part time and can't wait to leave medicine altogether.

ETA retirement age 37-38, unless the market absolutely craps itself.

Good luck, that sounds horrible...

 

[FlowRate]

Hoping that if or when I get sick of higher level admin work that it's around the same time that I hit a good coast number. Depends a bit on market performance over that same estimated timeline (10-20 years aka 45-55ish.) The reason being that I never see myself voluntarily going back to 1.0 clinical work. But it would be nice if I could just convert my admin FTE to free time whenever that part of my work life ends. I should also definitely have a good retirement savings amount at ~55 unless we have a truly terrible 20ish years in the market.

ETA, modeling it out slightly conservatively (8% market returns and 2% inflation), I should hit a good coast number at 45. At that point, about ~66-75% of the appreciation in assets is from market returns rather than investment contributions.

 

[Monocles]

Good luck, that sounds horrible...

Eh it could be worse. If I don't work I have a liquidity issue and have to sell stocks at a massive capital gains rate in order to maintain our lifestyle. I generally enjoy my coworkers and patients. Being on the FIRE track is very emotionally freeing though - I don't have to play office politics, don't have to volunteer or be overly eager for advancements, able to say "no thanks" to things I don't want to do, and can turn down bothersome promotions and leadership position, etc.

It's just that cutting down work hours becomes more addicting over time... you start with one weekday off to cook/exercise/garden/hobbies and then it creeps into two, then three... then you start to wonder how anyone has the time in their lives to work fulltime...

 

[comp1]

I do think that cutting back hours SLOWLY is an excellent idea. Certainly better than just retiring one day all of a sudden. That's where the catastrophic failures occur. That said, I'm not quite sure how slow you can be if you are FIRE and retiring at 38 though. I'm not even sure someone knows what kind of work they like at 38. I mean you've been doing this for a decade, maybe a bit less? Heck you might have loved those leadership positions or promotions.

 

[Wilf]

Comp you have opinions about retirement that I have never heard before and you are quite forceful with them. I have never once met anyone in my personal or professional life who has regretted retirement or found difficulty finding fulfillment (unless they had that difficulty before retirement as well.) What I come across all the time is people upset that they have to work or wishing they could retire. I wonder if you are having to work later in life than you had hoped and this is your way of coping. That is just conjecture though and I am open to being wrong.

 

[Taddy Mason]

Comp you have opinions about retirement that I have never heard before and you are quite forceful with them. I have never once met anyone in my personal or professional life who has regretted retirement or found difficulty finding fulfillment (unless they had that difficulty before retirement as well.) What I come across all the time is people upset that they have to work or wishing they could retire. I wonder if you are having to work later in life than you had hoped and this is your way of coping. That is just conjecture though and I am open to being wrong.

Meh, I can relate to Comp’s stance. I genuinely enjoy work, find it fulfilling, and have no interest in cutting back hours or retiring until I’m in my 60s. I find I have plenty of time for working out, hobbies, and vacation. I do despise bureaucracy and politics enough though that they could wear on me enough to change my mind.

 

[comp1]

Seriously? You don't have people in your practice who have absolutely no meaning in their life once their kids are out of the house and they're no longer working? I'm not saying that's everybody, but retirement messes with near a third of people. https://www.massmutual.com/about-us...earch-most-retirees-are-happier-in-retirement

Personally, I'm many decades out from even being able to touch retirement accounts without a penalty so I don't think I'm just coping with my outlook.

 

[Sushirolls]

^^^My observations, yeah, I could see about 1/3 struggling with retirement.

Best to know that about one self ahead of time and plan accordingly then to accidentally face plant into the sign when walking out the door.

 

[Stagg737]

I do think that cutting back hours SLOWLY is an excellent idea. Certainly better than just retiring one day all of a sudden. That's where the catastrophic failures occur. That said, I'm not quite sure how slow you can be if you are FIRE and retiring at 38 though. I'm not even sure someone knows what kind of work they like at 38. I mean you've been doing this for a decade, maybe a bit less? Heck you might have loved those leadership positions or promotions.

I don't think rapid retirement is the problem, I know several people (including my parents and mother-in-law) who were very happy with sudden retirement. The catastrophic failure occurs when people don't plan for what retirement is going to look like or their expectations don't align with reality. My parents have always been passionate about their yard and being able to work on it more days (basically every day) for fewer hours (so they'd be less sore/fatigued) was a dream for them. If I won the powerball tomorrow I'd absolutely retire and just focus on fitness and a few competitions I'd love to have the time to really dive into.

Comp you have opinions about retirement that I have never heard before and you are quite forceful with them. I have never once met anyone in my personal or professional life who has regretted retirement or found difficulty finding fulfillment (unless they had that difficulty before retirement as well.) What I come across all the time is people upset that they have to work or wishing they could retire. I wonder if you are having to work later in life than you had hoped and this is your way of coping. That is just conjecture though and I am open to being wrong.

If this is the case I feel like you don't know enough people. At one point in my consult clinic 50% of my consults were late 60's/early 70's women <2 years out of retirement who were depressed and anxious because they hated retirement. I don't believe for a second that you've never had a patient who didn't struggle with retirement. There are many, many people who retire and then are bored out of their minds or feel like their life is lacking purpose. Some of them go back to some kind of work and are much happier again. Not trying to be insulting, but some of your posts honestly seem like you live in another dimension from the rest of us...

 

[clausewitz2]

If this is the case I feel like you don't know enough people. At one point in my consult clinic 50% of my consults were late 60's/early 70's women <2 years out of retirement who were depressed and anxious because they hated retirement. I don't believe for a second that you've never had a patient who didn't struggle with retirement. There are many, many people who retire and then are bored out of their minds or feel like their life is lacking purpose. Some of them go back to some kind of work and are much happier again. Not trying to be insulting, but some of your posts honestly seem like you live in another dimension from the rest of us...

My most memorable case was a nurse I started working with in her mid 60s who was working more than full-time and constantly fantasized about how it would be so great when she wasn't working anymore. Then she actually retired and within two weeks she was miserably depressed and had no idea what to do with herself, apart from start really unnecessary fights with her adult children. Pushing and prodding got her back into fairly demanding volunteer work and suddenly she was back to her baseline.

Some people really don't tolerate idleness well. So far in my clinical experience they seem to be disproportionately in healthcare. Make of that what you will.

 

[finalpsychyear]

I do think that cutting back hours SLOWLY is an excellent idea. Certainly better than just retiring one day all of a sudden. That's where the catastrophic failures occur. That said, I'm not quite sure how slow you can be if you are FIRE and retiring at 38 though. I'm not even sure someone knows what kind of work they like at 38. I mean you've been doing this for a decade, maybe a bit less? Heck you might have loved those leadership positions or promotions.

In medicine, esp someone younger ( sub 50 ) wanting to actually stop they should def be scaling out to see if thats the issue. 5 days to 4 days to 3 days etc.

See waht you actually gain from those 1-2 days off a week and if your filling them like you imagine. I would go to 4 day weeks tmrw if i wasn't trying to be in a position to be work optional in the next 5 years.

 

[finalpsychyear]

Just renewed my med license (two year cycle) for hopefully the last time! I am already part time and can't wait to leave medicine altogether.

ETA retirement age 37-38, unless the market absolutely craps itself.

I applaud you trying to get out. You are already scaling out slowly. Were you working full time when you started then switched to PT a few years ago?

Out of curiosity how many hours are you doing now and if you were able to do it entirely from home would that extend your Part time career?

 

[Merovinge]

I don't think rapid retirement is the problem, I know several people (including my parents and mother-in-law) who were very happy with sudden retirement. The catastrophic failure occurs when people don't plan for what retirement is going to look like or their expectations don't align with reality. My parents have always been passionate about their yard and being able to work on it more days (basically every day) for fewer hours (so they'd be less sore/fatigued) was a dream for them. If I won the powerball tomorrow I'd absolutely retire and just focus on fitness and a few competitions I'd love to have the time to really dive into.


If this is the case I feel like you don't know enough people. At one point in my consult clinic 50% of my consults were late 60's/early 70's women <2 years out of retirement who were depressed and anxious because they hated retirement. I don't believe for a second that you've never had a patient who didn't struggle with retirement. There are many, many people who retire and then are bored out of their minds or feel like their life is lacking purpose. Some of them go back to some kind of work and are much happier again. Not trying to be insulting, but some of your posts honestly seem like you live in another dimension from the rest of us...

Absolutely. People think of retirement as something you retire from. What you actually need is something to retire to. I'm already toying with different potential usages of time for a retirement that is a decade+ away so that I've workshop as many ideas as are feasible/exciting. As an aside, if anyone has lived on a boat for several months/year+ at a time and wants to share about that experience, I am all ears!

 

[Sushirolls]

Yum! The boat plan.

You thinking salt water? Fresh water? Transit or blend of both? Snow/frozen or tropical only climate? Big boat that needs a dingy as a shuttle craft?

Not exactly a boat, but these folk renovated an atypical "house boat":

 

[Merovinge]

40-50' trawler probably with a small dingy. Considering great loop vs Med vs SE Asia. We will see on battery tech, would love a more hybrid drive system that can function for a while away from ports.

 

[Sushirolls]

All I can offer is try to find an old Johnson 10-25hp 2 stroke motor for the dingy. Easy to repair, can find parts, and 2 stroke indestructible.

 

[finalpsychyear]

Comp you have opinions about retirement that I have never heard before and you are quite forceful with them. I have never once met anyone in my personal or professional life who has regretted retirement or found difficulty finding fulfillment (unless they had that difficulty before retirement as well.) What I come across all the time is people upset that they have to work or wishing they could retire. I wonder if you are having to work later in life than you had hoped and this is your way of coping. That is just conjecture though and I am open to being wrong.

If you took a 100 doctors at a hospital and magically they woke up and had a portfolio of 10m+ the vast majority would walk away and or cut there schedule by more than 50% and even then may leave the hosptial setting and go into volunteer/medical mission/ free clinic care. This would skew likely more the younger they are. Im not saying there aren't those who would still go in M-F but they would be the minority.

Retirement is almost universally a $$ decision. Solve the money problem then in work optional mode going to free clinics, medical missions, and volunteer work where legal issues go down even further become a much more attractive type of practice imo.

 

[Wilf]

Personally, I'm many decades out from even being able to touch retirement accounts without a penalty so I don't think I'm just coping with my outlook.

Ah, maybe you’re still young and have the youthful and optimistic view that “I am a doctor and helping the world!” For some reason I am thinking you are a DO, but I am not looking for you to answer that necessarily.

And I am completely serious that I have never had a patient who was upset about retirement. That being said, I have never worked in the upper class outpatient world, so that could be a reason I have not. Many close and extended family members and friends of family have retired (some young) and none had any issues.

It is sad to me that a subset of people would find work (even at our professional level) so fulfilling that nothing could replace it. Not family or friends or personal interests. I could understand if maybe 5-10% of folks fell into this category, but 1/3 seems crazy. It’s too bad these people are not able to imagine retirement and how they’ll feel before they actually retire. I’d also think that the people who fall apart without their career would have loved it and not wanted to retire in the first place.