When do you plan to retire?

[Stagg737]

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It is sad to me that a subset of people would find work (even at our professional level) so fulfilling that nothing could replace it.

Why? If someone finds something they are truly passionate about, love, and find completely fulfilling then why would you want them to replace it just because they get paid for it?

My most memorable case was a nurse I started working with in her mid 60s who was working more than full-time and constantly fantasized about how it would be so great when she wasn't working anymore. Then she actually retired and within two weeks she was miserably depressed and had no idea what to do with herself, apart from start really unnecessary fights with her adult children. Pushing and prodding got her back into fairly demanding volunteer work and suddenly she was back to her baseline.

Some people really don't tolerate idleness well. So far in my clinical experience they seem to be disproportionately in healthcare. Make of that what you will.

If you took a 100 doctors at a hospital and magically they woke up and had a portfolio of 10m+ the vast majority would walk away and or cut there schedule by more than 50% and even then may leave the hosptial setting and go into volunteer/medical mission/ free clinic care. This would skew likely more the younger they are. Im not saying there aren't those who would still go in M-F but they would be the minority.

Retirement is almost universally a $$ decision. Solve the money problem then in work optional mode going to free clinics, medical missions, and volunteer work where legal issues go down even further become a much more attractive type of practice imo.

For sure, even if they don't go into some other medical setting I know very few doctors who would completely give up doing some kind of work (even if that work is their golf game!) if they won the powerball. Almost every physician I know has some level of "type A" personality and too much idle time would drive them crazy.

 

[finalpsychyear]

Why? If someone finds something they are truly passionate about, love, and find completely fulfilling then why would you want them to replace it just because they get paid for it?



For sure, even if they don't go into some other medical setting I know very few doctors who would completely give up doing some kind of work (even if that work is their golf game!) if they won the powerball. Almost every physician I know has some level of "type A" personality and too much idle time would drive them crazy.

Agree. I would literally play tennis 1-2 hrs and compete in usta tennis more seriously than i di now. gym daily. Watch netflix while doing cardio and podcasts between driving times. 1-2 hrs of learning something health, financial, diet/nutrtion related. Maybe throw in 1 hr of video games. I do most of this anyways but just not all of it in a work day. Also we have a large social circle so planning meals out also on a thur and fri instead of wknds.

But all everyone talks abt on here is how boring and terrible retirement is. It would be if u don't have passions and medicine is ur life.

 

[clozareal]

If you were miserable before retirement, you're going to be miserable during retirement.

 

[FatherPsychiatry]

If you were miserable before retirement, you're going to be miserable during retirement.

I think this sums things up nicely. I bet a lot of the people saying they are planning to work at least to some extent to late age / death, have already structured their life (of which psychiatry is a part, but only a part) to target contentment/happiness. So they'll continue to do pursue this sort of strategy in "retirement". I think some people could definitely go 100+ -> 0% and find contentment, but I think they're being overconfident because, I mean you can plan all this stuff out on spread sheets and safe withdrawal rates etc etc, but its the soft stuff that might cause them to still be miserable. I remember a thread on Bogleheads where a recently retired guy talking about his experience so far, and one of the things he missed was his commute, not because he liked the commute, but because it was a consistent hour or so a day where no one would bother him and he wasn't expected to do anything so he would listen to Podcasts, Audiobooks, etc. You can say you'll do that in retirement, but in reality, your wife might be annoyed that you want to listen to a podcast by yourself instead of going to a coffee shop with her.

 

[Merovinge]

Ah, maybe you’re still young and have the youthful and optimistic view that “I am a doctor and helping the world!” For some reason I am thinking you are a DO, but I am not looking for you to answer that necessarily.

And I am completely serious that I have never had a patient who was upset about retirement. That being said, I have never worked in the upper class outpatient world, so that could be a reason I have not. Many close and extended family members and friends of family have retired (some young) and none had any issues.

It is sad to me that a subset of people would find work (even at our professional level) so fulfilling that nothing could replace it. Not family or friends or personal interests. I could understand if maybe 5-10% of folks fell into this category, but 1/3 seems crazy. It’s too bad these people are not able to imagine retirement and how they’ll feel before they actually retire. I’d also think that the people who fall apart without their career would have loved it and not wanted to retire in the first place.

There's a peanut butter and jelly combination of doing prosocial work that also comes with a significant paycheck that's tough to beat for the human brain. All the dopamaine, none of the calories if you will. Very few people get lucky enough to have that combination in their life so even when the money isn't needed to hit any milestones, it will still be coming in and leading to additional sense of purpose.

The above is exactly why I can't even commit to retiring with 8 figures saved because I know how good work is for me. It's also good for a lot of kids, but I am very aware it's good for me. In contrast, my partner does not have the same satisfaction with work even though she directly saves far more lives than I do. We're planning on her hanging it up by mid 40's, but I know it's going to be a lot of work to help her figure out what to do with her days.

 

[FatherPsychiatry]

We're planning on her hanging it up by mid 40's, but I know it's going to be a lot of work to help her figure out what to do with her days.

I'm in a very similar boat and worried she will start asking me to take more vacations, days off to go to restaurants etc. I mean I like that stuff too, but I also really like the regularity of my life how it is now, so helping her build a life outside of work, especially with it having been such a core / primary part of it almost her whole life (starting from college!) is not going to be easy!

 

[Merovinge]

I'm in a very similar boat and worried she will start asking me to take more vacations, days off to go to restaurants etc. I mean I like that stuff too, but I also really like the regularity of my life how it is now, so helping her build a life outside of work, especially with it having been such a core / primary part of it almost her whole life (starting from college!) is not going to be easy!

I'm trying to sneak books, podcasts, and talks any time we are childfree into our lives 1/2 a decade in advance because I know how type-A she is. It's a huge jolt to go from competing for a middle school, competing for high school, competing for college, competing for med school, competing for residency, competing for fellowship, competing for jobs to nothing. I am no expert in creating a glide-path down, but I am doing my best and open to any tips!

 

[finalpsychyear]

I think this sums things up nicely. I bet a lot of the people saying they are planning to work at least to some extent to late age / death, have already structured their life (of which psychiatry is a part, but only a part) to target contentment/happiness. So they'll continue to do pursue this sort of strategy in "retirement". I think some people could definitely go 100+ -> 0% and find contentment, but I think they're being overconfident because, I mean you can plan all this stuff out on spread sheets and safe withdrawal rates etc etc, but its the soft stuff that might cause them to still be miserable. I remember a thread on Bogleheads where a recently retired guy talking about his experience so far, and one of the things he missed was his commute, not because he liked the commute, but because it was a consistent hour or so a day where no one would bother him and he wasn't expected to do anything so he would listen to Podcasts, Audiobooks, etc. You can say you'll do that in retirement, but in reality, your wife might be annoyed that you want to listen to a podcast by yourself instead of going to a coffee shop with her.

Yeah i mean scaling out is probably the best move for most folks. The other issue is most people are not able to cut back before 50 yo. The longer you keep doing something it becomes more integrated into your lifestyle good or bad sometimes. Im also assuming the person has passions and hobbies that will consume a good amount of time during the week. The people that don't have hobbies are the ones more likely to get bored naturally.

Ill be able to add more reflection on this if im able to starting cutting back around 2030.

 

[finalpsychyear]

There's a peanut butter and jelly combination of doing prosocial work that also comes with a significant paycheck that's tough to beat for the human brain. All the dopamaine, none of the calories if you will. Very few people get lucky enough to have that combination in their life so even when the money isn't needed to hit any milestones, it will still be coming in and leading to additional sense of purpose.

The above is exactly why I can't even commit to retiring with 8 figures saved because I know how good work is for me. It's also good for a lot of kids, but I am very aware it's good for me. In contrast, my partner does not have the same satisfaction with work even though she directly saves far more lives than I do. We're planning on her hanging it up by mid 40's, but I know it's going to be a lot of work to help her figure out what to do with her days.

There is value in work no doubt about it. I think its iimportant how we define retirement. When i talk about a sub 50 retirement its def a full day of things going on in place of work. After residency since boards were in late september i decided not to work right away. I loved the time and aside studying for 2 hrs a day never got bored because of the above passions of tennis, gym, bookstores/reading, friends. Then post boards the 3 mo after I even didn't even get going till January with some part time clinical work.

6 mo after that part time schedule i got insanely busy but i can't say that having even part time work was better than 0 work which i had shortly post boards with no test to study for and could solely focus on myself for 3.5 mo. Again boredom was not an issue. Hence my desire being since the start of practicing to get to a financial point to truly be work optional. Ive experienced small stints of it and it was glorious.

 

[comp1]

I don't think winning the lottery is a good analogy. Managing and spending that money suddenly becomes a separate and possibly fulfilling job (although statistically it does not end well). I agree that for most people the primary issue around retirement is money and that's why so much is focused on it in the media. However, physicians are darn wealthy, almost uniformly in the top 10%, often top 5% of earners. Thus, I don't think money is as much an issue for physicians. I think it's more the type A personality and being work driven. I mean we all had to find SOME purpose and meaning in medicine to be doing it. It's not an easy thing to just pick up one day. And no, I'm not a DO. If you want to psychoanalyze me, I had a grandfather who ran an timey family practice right up until 3 months before he died in his mid 70's and he always struck me as extremely fulfilled in life.

 

[finalpsychyear]

I don't think winning the lottery is a good analogy. Managing and spending that money suddenly becomes a separate and possibly fulfilling job (although statistically it does not end well). I agree that for most people the primary issue around retirement is money and that's why so much is focused on it in the media. However, physicians are darn wealthy, almost uniformly in the top 10%, often top 5% of earners. Thus, I don't think money is as much an issue for physicians. I think it's more the type A personality and being work driven. I mean we all had to find SOME purpose and meaning in medicine to be doing it. It's not an easy thing to just pick up one day. And no, I'm not a DO. If you want to psychoanalyze me, I had a grandfather who ran an timey family practice right up until 3 months before he died in his mid 70's and he always struck me as extremely fulfilled in life.

I dont know about you but someone who has hypothetically a 10m liquid portfolio and enjoys investing and math is likely also going to be using a fee only fiduciary and kinda managing the funds to save the 1% fees which is 100k. Thats also going to be a part of there work and enjoyment. Not saying they are a day trader but watching and learning about markets/news would naturally be a part of the day to day for some.

Few friends have gone part time in there 40s bc of burnout not because they hit it big and def enjoy life much more and its simply becaues there is less work and more free time.

 

[clozareal]

The best way to prevent aimlessness in retirement is to start before retirement.

If being a physician and providing service to others was a core part of your identity, you need something else in place before stepping away. Abrupt discontinuation can work for many but the withdrawal effects may be intolerable. Cross-titration is recommended.

You have to be honest with yourself about why you're leaving. There's a difference between quitting because of burnout from working so much (the treatment is to cut back on hours or to get therapy and work on your boundaries) and avoidance of that difficult work versus retiring fulfilled, completed, and moving on to greener pastures toward activities that were always calling but work ate up that time.

Finances are just one part of retirement to manage and can make it much easier to step away if FI. I find that the closer I get to FI, the better I become as a spouse/partner, as a parent, and as a psychiatrist. The stress of debt, anxiety about livelihood, and survival become much less palpable especially since I grew up with parents mired by those concerns.

 

[Wilf]

Damn I need to know where some of you are working where life is made so great that it beats out spending your days with family and loved ones, vacationing, reading good books, studying interesting topics, going out for nice evenings at restaurants and bars, working out, taking care of the house, visiting museums, etc, etc. You must have bosses (how much does it suck that most of us have bosses) who are not annoying and stupid, a method to make documentation not soul crushing, motivated patients, and interesting cases! Please share!

 

[Wilf]

There's a peanut butter and jelly combination of doing prosocial work that also comes with a significant paycheck that's tough to beat for the human brain. All the dopamaine, none of the calories if you will. Very few people get lucky enough to have that combination in their life so even when the money isn't needed to hit any milestones, it will still be coming in and leading to additional sense of purpose.

This makes me truly curious, what are examples of fairly high paying or high paying careers/jobs that are not prosocial? And let's exclude illegal "work" such as drug dealing, organized crime, or the like.

 

[Merovinge]

This makes me truly curious, what are examples of fairly high paying or high paying careers/jobs that are not prosocial? And let's exclude illegal "work" such as drug dealing, organized crime, or the like.

Oh please don't get me started. So much of the private equity space. A fair amount of the financial products/sales of financial products. Corporate lawfare. Lobbying. Most Chriopractic work.

 

[Monocles]

I applaud you trying to get out. You are already scaling out slowly. Were you working full time when you started then switched to PT a few years ago?

Out of curiosity how many hours are you doing now and if you were able to do it entirely from home would that extend your Part time career?

So my work hours varied a ton over the course of years. My first year out of graduation I worked full time inpatient, and also did a ton of extra nights/weekends/holidays. I really wanted the compounding effect so I spent about $60k that year and threw every penny I had into the SP500. (I think my record topped out at $27k invested during one month!)

Since then I've worked mostly remote, as low as 12 hour weeks and sometimes up to 30 hour weeks. I'll adjust my hours and take/drop temp assignments based on the market conditions. I'm back to around 20 hours now mostly due to worries about macro level stuff (ex: geopolitical uncertainties, unemployment rate, AI concerns as my spouse is in tech, etc). Despite being part time I've still been able to save about 75% of my take home salary every year until last year when we had some extra expenses.

 

[clozareal]

Damn I need to know where some of you are working where life is made so great that it beats out spending your days with family and loved ones, vacationing, reading good books, studying interesting topics, going out for nice evenings at restaurants and bars, working out, taking care of the house, visiting museums, etc, etc. You must have bosses (how much does it suck that most of us have bosses) who are not annoying and stupid, a method to make documentation not soul crushing, motivated patients, and interesting cases! Please share!

I am my own boss although jury is out on the annoying and stupid bit. Documentation takes me a few mins per patient. I am mostly cash pay which means patients are motivated and collaborative. The ones who aren't tend not to stick around since they have to pay for it. I do a lot of complex cases including interesting CAP ones.

I'm not saying that it's me. I have many patients who are lonely in retirement, don't enjoy traveling or reading, don't enjoy restaurants or bars, don't want to work out or golf or fish. I have many patients who struggle to find meaning and purpose after they retire. Good for you for having so many interests and a personality that allows you to enjoy those interests. I'm the same way. I would do much less clinical work, much more teaching, much more video gaming, much more golfing, much more barbecuing, much more family/friend time, much more vacationing if I didn't have to worry about money.

This makes me truly curious, what are examples of fairly high paying or high paying careers/jobs that are not prosocial? And let's exclude illegal "work" such as drug dealing, organized crime, or the like.

Big tech. Doctor pay, doctor hours, none of the prestige or direct social impact.

 

[Merovinge]

Big tech. Doctor pay, doctor hours, none of the prestige or direct social impact.

They have impact alright, although for much of big tech it's antisocial and not prosocial in nature. Can't believe I forgot Meta and Tic ToC employees from my list above.

 

[Wilf]

I believe some of this might be in our (not mine) heads primarily. I think many people would prefer to be a high level executive at Meta or TikTok or Amazon over a run of the mill psychiatrist. And I seriously have to argue the prestige point. Two people at a party introduce themselves, one says they are a Vice President at Meta and the other says he is a psychiatrist working at the local clinic. Is it fairly obvious which one most people would find more prestigious? The days of physician prestige are mostly behind us. Many of the patients at the clinic I work at would not be able to tell you which providers are doctors versus nurse practitioners.

 

[finalpsychyear]

I believe some of this might be in our (not mine) heads primarily. I think many people would prefer to be a high level executive at Meta or TikTok or Amazon over a run of the mill psychiatrist. And I seriously have to argue the prestige point. Two people at a party introduce themselves, one says they are a Vice President at Meta and the other says he is a psychiatrist working at the local clinic. Is it fairly obvious which one most people would find more prestigious? The days of physician prestige are mostly behind us. Many of the patients at the clinic I work at would not be able to tell you which providers are doctors versus nurse practitioners.

good for the people that find xyz more valuable or respected. Im more interested in who is retiring earlier with the type of retirement i want. Thats the 4D move.

Convo:
Meta Exex: I make 1m a year..... but damn every year could be laid off and that AI getting real good i tell ya.

Early Retired Doc: Sweet. I make the same with my 10m portfolio spitting out interest/dividends and return while I fill my day with various sports/hobbies/social activities/learning/gym.

 

[comp1]

Just the idea that we compare ourselves to an executive at a company with a literal 1.5 trillion dollar market cap...really indicates that we're doing fine. People were more impressed meeting Lee Iacocca as a rising executive for Ford in the 1960's than they were with meeting a local surgeon too.

 

[Taddy Mason]

Just the idea that we compare ourselves to an executive at a company with a literal 1.5 trillion dollar market cap...really indicates that we're doing fine.

The job market says otherwise and I’m not restricting myself geographically.

 

[Stagg737]

The job market says otherwise and I’m not restricting myself geographically.

Are you willing to do outpatient work? If so I can probably forward you some job postings in NE including MA. Where I'm at job market is doing fine right now.

 

[Taddy Mason]

Are you willing to do outpatient work? If so I can probably forward you some job postings in NE including MA. Where I'm at job market is doing fine right now.

I might have to broaden my search to outpatient positions. So far I’ve just been applying to inpatient, C/L (not fellowship trained but have lots of experience), and addictions (my subspecialty) positions. I actually just had a phone interview with a physician recruiter in Duluth, MN today and she mentioned something about the job market getting tighter for psych as well. She said they’ve been getting a lot more applications for their open psych positions than usual and lots of people applying from out of state without connections to the area.

 

[Stagg737]

I might have to broaden my search to outpatient positions. So far I’ve just been applying to inpatient, C/L (not fellowship trained but have lots of experience), and addictions (my subspecialty) positions. I actually just had a phone interview with a physician recruiter in Duluth, MN today and she mentioned something about the job market getting tighter for psych as well. She said they’ve been getting a lot more applications for their open psych positions than usual and lots of people applying from out of state without connections to the area.

I've got an e-mail from Dec. 6 for an addictions position just north of Boston, I'm happy to DM if you want the contact info for the recruiter. You may already know the position or have applied but sounds like it's non-academic with academic affiliations, pay range of $270k-$300k. "Growing new hospital and ED-based addition consultation service".

 

[Taddy Mason]

I've got an e-mail from Dec. 6 for an addictions position just north of Boston if you want the contact info for the recruiter. You may already know the position or have applied but sounds like it's non-academic with academic affiliations, pay range of $270k-$300k. "Growing new hospital and ED-based addition consultation service".

If you could send it that would be great. I know what job it is and actually applied but haven’t heard anything and there’s no contact info for the recruiter or anyone else to contact on the job posting to follow-up with.