When does a med student learn to do abortions?

[cobalt7]

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[cobalt7]

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[8744]

this could very well get ugly fast, so i feel we should just end the discussion here, besides i doubt you way up there on your pedestal could clearly hear or understand my viewpoint anyway, i find it strange that one could think that a procedure which very well could help your patient as well as be in your patient's best interest could be the "worst brutality in the world", that is a strange world you live in, it is certainly not the one the rest of us reside in, just so i can avoid future doctors that share your viewpoints, are there any other treatments which are "inherently evil", chemotherapy? plastic surgery? birth control? medications?, your opinions remind me of a very crazy tom cruise, fanatics, whether fanatic about violence or religion are equally dangerous to the world and to the progress of the human species, ...........................perhaps some betrand russell could clear your mind

You seem very fanatical about abortion ascribing to it all sorts of therapeutic powers.

Oh yeah, your viewpoint is really hard to comprehend what with all of its subtle nuances and complexities.

 

[8744]

...perhaps some betrand russell could clear your mind...

Ah. Philosophy lite. Just a few notches above Noam Chomsky on the philosophy food chain.

 

[lobster M.D.]

He's aware of that. Its his style. Sort of a Bill O-Reilly type.

ahhhhh, you mean a neo-conservative ignorant ******* that looks down on those not sharing his opinion, i see, things are much clearer now, ooooh and panda, its funny how strongly you advocate for human compassion, yet you seem like such an arrogant p rick unable to realize there are other perspectives than your own and *gasp* they might even be intelligent and dare i say it, more rational than your own babblings

 

[8744]

ahhhhh, you mean a neo-conservative ignorant ******* that looks down on those not sharing his opinion, i see, things are much clearer now, ooooh and panda, its funny how strongly you advocate for human compassion, yet you seem like such an arrogant p rick unable to realize there are other perspectives than your own and *gasp* they might even be intelligent and dare i say it, more rational than your own babblings

Now hang on. You don't share my opinions which, like it or not, are representative a pretty big segment of the population. 30 percent? 40?

I might as well point out your arrogance for refusing to see things my way. Could I say that you are a liberal ignorant ******* who looks down on people who don't share your opinions? Why couldn't I? You seem pretty close-minded on this subject.

 

[synapse lapse]

Ah. Philosophy lite. Just a few notches above Noam Chomsky on the philosophy food chain.

Now I really don't care to engage in the gooey aborted fetus debate but lets not start bashing good philosophers here... and Bertrand was one of the best. Noam Chomsky is a linguist, btw, but I get the reference your alluding to.

 

[aphistis]

ahhhhh, you mean a neo-conservative ignorant ******* that looks down on those not sharing his opinion, i see, things are much clearer now, ooooh and panda, its funny how strongly you advocate for human compassion, yet you seem like such an arrogant p rick unable to realize there are other perspectives than your own and *gasp* they might even be intelligent and dare i say it, more rational than your own babblings

Right. And you're, what, a paragon of tolerance & open-mindedness?

Glass houses, people. Yeesh.

 

[stoic]

my god people.

i would like to first point out that "reasonable men can differ." that's a point that seems so often ignored in today's politics. everyone is busy casting those whom with they disagree and idiots and *****s. when was the last time anything useful came out of two different view points being argued by individuals who consider the other an idiot?


panda, don't you have a residency to do or something? i'm sorry you don't agree with abortion, but it's a legal - sometimes necessary - procedure. and sometimes it's a prudent elective procedure; for instance when prenatal testing reveals defects incompatible with any quality of life postnatally. i respect your right to not participate in the care of those requesting an abortion (and so does the profession in general), but if you come across to those patients as you come across on this board, you're not going to get very many of them back. i don't understand how you can justify just leaving a patient in the rain in terms of a referal to a doctor who will refer her to an abortion provider. the mother is a patient as well, and by just telling her tough luck, you're being at best an uncompassionate physician - i'm not sure that the term self-righteous jerk is too far out of line.

to be fair, i also dispise the concept of abortion as a means of BC. unfortunately it's not that simple; these are complicated issues for all involved. but simply banning all abortions will do nothing to address the increasing number of unwanted pregnancies (thanks GW and your abstience only education!). that's simply not how things work in the real world; especially in the real world of horny teenagers. bringing even more children into "famiies" that have no means to support and educate them will only potentiate many of the social problems we are alreay unable to deal with. we all know the demographics of who is having elective abortions; it's an unfortunate fact but a fact none the less. the answer to the root of the problem lies in developing effective social programs to help with family planning as well as increasing the quality of eduction available for lower socioeconomic classes. just banning abortions WILL NOT be a productive solution in the long run.

and before you or anyone else cries out about the babies we could save, would you all please recognize that in Africa TENS OF MILLIONS of children, who are already born are starving to death while their parents (and likely later them) die of HIV/AIDS. this is a scale of suffereing so far beyond that of the loss of life (if you consider it such) caused by abortions provided in the US. who do you (panda and others) feel benifits more from our time, effort, and money? the unborn or those children - thousands a day - starving to death in africa daily? what about the unborn, but aborted fetuses in the US, compared to the unborn in africa who could be saved from perinatal contraction of HIV with a few dollars worth of anti-retrovirals? would that not do more to increase the quality of the human condition than saving those who would otherwise be aborted, but never know the heart-ache of watching your family die and knowing that soon you will die the same horrible painful death?

people, get things in perspective. because this discussion makes us ALL look like ethnocentric, selfish, and callous people. the real way to make a difference isn't to outlaw abortions. it's to A) prevent unwanted pregnancies all over the world and B) actually do something beside dropping food from C-130's once a month for the millions and millions dying in africa.

unless you feel that the unborn in the US have more rights and more needs than the dying millions in africa. and if that is the case, then you are a self-rightous dingus.

 

[Flea girl]

He's aware of that. Its his style. Sort of a Bill O-Reilly type.

Even so does not justify him to be self rightous. Especially when he considers himself a "true christian". I am quite sure there is something in the bible about not being self rightous. I think alot of people forget that verse in the bible "Judge not, lest ye be judged".

 

[stoic]

Even so does not justify him to be self rightous. Especially when he considers himself a "true christian". I am quite sure there is something in the bible about not being self rightous. I think alot of people forget that verse in the bible "Judge not, lest ye be judged".

a lot of people forget a lot of versus when the verse they "forget" would contradict the position they are supporting.

 

[8744]

It's actually really fulfilling, the patients are so grateful you are there! I worked in the recovery room of an abortion clinic and while there were some sad moments, most people don't realize how "ordinary" the atmosphere can be... cracking jokes, talking about everything and nothing with the patients, etc. The vast majority are so relieved when it is done (of course, the better the service, the better the mood of the patient - and I include counseling and anesthesia in "service" here...)

I know many doctors who feel very good about doing abortions. And they get a lot of thank-you cards and word-of-mouth referrals.

Why are there sad moments?

 

[8744]

Even so does not justify him to be self rightous. Especially when he considers himself a "true christian". I am quite sure there is something in the bible about not being self rightous. I think alot of people forget that verse in the bible "Judge not, lest ye be judged".

Young Lady, if the definition of a true Christian includes standing by silently in the face of evil or worse yet actively supporting it then your definition of Christianity is broad enough to include both everybody and nobody.

The Pharisee was "self-righteous." The Publican (tax collector) was not. My pointing out the evil in which you are cheerfully taking part in no way implies that I am either the Publican or the Pharisee. By your criteria, only the morally perfect are allowed to comment on any moral issue while those of us who are not must stand mute and wistfully say, "well, I sometimes eat meat on Fridays so I guess you can go ahead and commit murder."

 

[Flea girl]

Young Lady, if the definition of a true Christian includes standing by silently in the face of evil or worse yet actively supporting it then your definition of Christianity is broad enough to include both everybody and nobody.

The Pharisee was "self-righteous." The Publican (tax collector) was not. My pointing out the evil in which you are cheerfully taking part in no way implies that I am either the Publican or the Pharisee. By your criteria, only the morally perfect are allowed to comment on any moral issue while those of us who are not must stand mute and wistfully say, "well, I sometimes eat meat on Fridays so I guess you can go ahead and commit murder."

Excuse me, but I resent the tone of your voice YOUNG MAN. You your self are guilty of making assumptions you know nothing about! Where did I EVER state that I CHEERFULLY TAKE PART IN ABORTIONS!! GET OFF YOUR MORAL HIGH HORSE! Again your assumptions are what make you look like a horse's a$$. I do not call myself Christian. I was commenting on all the observations that I have noted about these "supposed" Christians. It is amazing how you people are the first to tote how holy than thou you are but in reality, have flaws like the rest of us. Yet, no one is allowed to state that fact. I do not think I EVER stated that I was morally perfect either! Again, how quickly you jump to judge. Are you one of them that picks and chooses what parts of the religion you wish to follow? You are a shame to your religion! I think you should actually read the bible for a change, I have. Grow up and start acting you age for once (have read your other posts).

 

[8744]

Excuse me, but I resent the tone of your voice YOUNG MAN. You your self are guilty of making assumptions you know nothing about! Where did I EVER state that I CHEERFULLY TAKE PART IN ABORTIONS!! GET OFF YOUR MORAL HIGH HORSE! Again your assumptions are what make you look like a horse's a$$. I do not call myself Christian. I was commenting on all the observations that I have noted about these "supposed" Christians. It is amazing how you people are the first to tote how holy than thou you are but in reality, have flaws like the rest of us. Yet, no one is allowed to state that fact. I do not think I EVER stated that I was morally perfect either! Again, how quickly you jump to judge. Are you one of them that picks and chooses what parts of the religion you wish to follow? You are a shame to your religion! I think you should actually read the bible for a change, I have. Grow up and start acting you age for once (have read your other posts).

So why are there sad moments in the abortion clinic? There are certainly no said moments in my diabetic foot clinic.

 

[8744]

Excuse me, but I resent the tone of your voice YOUNG MAN. You your self are guilty of making assumptions you know nothing about! Where did I EVER state that I CHEERFULLY TAKE PART IN ABORTIONS!! GET OFF YOUR MORAL HIGH HORSE! Again your assumptions are what make you look like a horse's a$$. I do not call myself Christian. I was commenting on all the observations that I have noted about these "supposed" Christians. It is amazing how you people are the first to tote how holy than thou you are but in reality, have flaws like the rest of us. Yet, no one is allowed to state that fact. I do not think I EVER stated that I was morally perfect either! Again, how quickly you jump to judge. Are you one of them that picks and chooses what parts of the religion you wish to follow? You are a shame to your religion! I think you should actually read the bible for a change, I have. Grow up and start acting you age for once (have read your other posts).

So why are there sad moments in the abortion clinic? There are certainly no sad moments in my diabetic foot clinic.

 

[trustwomen]

Panda, technically I am the one "cheerfully taking part in evil", not Fleagirl. Please get your hellbound feminists straight from now on.

You have the right to your views. However, you MUST realize that you are not winning hearts and minds on this one. Nobody is asking you to have an abortion or even to do an abortion (although refusing to refer for one is unprofessional IMO - but I'd rather not get into that).

You ask "why were there sad moments" - well, Panda, it's because many women who get abortions are sad that they have to. Of course they don't have to, you're thinking... Well, that's your perspective, not theirs. Of the two of you, the woman's perspective carries more weight with me than yours does when addressing this particular question. I would never tell somebody, nor deign to believe that I can even know, what she can or can't handle in her life. Would you be shocked if I told you there were many happy moments, too? How one patient had such a broad constant smile (after crampy surgery) that I thought she must be on drugs, until I looked at the counselor's notes and saw that she had just left an abusive relationship? (Did you know, Panda, that beating the **** out of your girlfriend does not in any way prevent you from having access to your children - as long as you don't beat them too? Meaning that once you have a baby with an a**hole you are tied to him, for life, by law?) How I went up to her and whispered, Congratulations - you got yourself free - and how that impossibly wide smile got even wider as she hugged me? Would it alter your views, just a little, if I told you that my life was saved, both literally and figuratively, by an abortion I desperately needed? That I've seen so many women live free and proud and strong because they weren't forced to be mothers against their will?

I know this information will move you not at all. You're focusing on the fetus. But having personally seen hundreds, if not thousands of fetuses from 4 to 24 weeks I can tell you, Panda - it's not what you think it is. The propaganda you have heard, and I suspect are spreading, is pure and utter bullcrap. I dare anyone to look at a 6-week embryo (did you know, Panda, that nearly 90% of all abortions are done under 12 weeks?) and tell me that this little beige thing that looks for all the world like a loogie, is worth more than the woman whose uterus contains it.

Anyway, I don't really belong in Allo yet - until my acceptance comes, in a few weeks (hopefully). I just posted in order to reassure the OP that abortion care is a very rewarding part of medicine. I have no interest in a long debate about the rightness or wrongness of abortion, and with people whose views are firmly entrenched, nothing ever results from those discussions except frustration and anger anyway. So I'll sign off, but not before inviting anyone who has further questions about abortion care (and is pro-choice) to PM me.

 

[MN81]

Would it be fair to say that Christians can really only hold other Christians to any sort of Christian standard of morality?... when it comes to the Abortion issue.

 

[trustwomen]

Would it be fair to say that Christians can really only hold other Christians to any sort of Christian standard of morality?... when it comes to the Abortion issue.

http://www.churchofreality.org/wisdom/

I see many many conversions in the future (search for "abortion" within the site for some interesting articles). 😀

 

[beefballs]

Would it be fair to say that Christians can really only hold other Christians to any sort of Christian standard of morality?... when it comes to the Abortion issue.

No because it is a belief structure, no one (christian or not ) should impose thier value structure on another-(I am a failed Catholic). I also see alot of divisions sprouting up within christianity as well. The "Liberty University" and "strict interpretation of the bible" types cause my friends father(episcapalian(sp?) priest) to go nuts.

mn81 how do you add that tag line, and if your wearing that mask I am wearing krugman

 

[beefballs]

krugman is much funnier looking

 

[Flea girl]

So why are there sad moments in the abortion clinic? There are certainly no sad moments in my diabetic foot clinic.

Are you sure YOU have a diabetic foot clinic?!! So you are saying that you have NEVER told a diabetic patient that they are going to have to have their foot amputated b/c of their diabetes??!! Oh, wait is that not considered sad to you??!! Again GROW UP!

 

[trustwomen]

Would it be fair to say that Christians can really only hold other Christians to any sort of Christian standard of morality?... when it comes to the Abortion issue.

I support the right of religious groups to endorse, condemn, or excommunicate whoever they want. It's their club, they get to say who's in it and who's out (or who has cooties). I just don't like when they try to make it the law for everyone else.

 

[Flea girl]

I support the right of religious groups to endorse, condemn, or excommunicate whoever they want. It's their club, they get to say who's in it and who's out (or who has cooties). I just don't like when they try to make it the law for everyone else.

Completely agree with that!

 

[trustwomen]

So you are saying that you have NEVER told a diabetic patient that they are going to have to have their foot amputated b/c of their diabetes?

Good point Flea girl. I also suppose that the sadness one sees in oncology wards is there mainly because the tumours are HELPLESS LIVING THINGS THAT ARE GOING TO BE MURDERED... Oh, wait, people actually feel relieved and happy after their tumours are surgically removed, although they are still sad that they got cancer in the first place???? You mean they're anxious in the waiting room and smiling in the recovery room? Funny, that sounds JUST like an abortion clinic... 😉

 

[MN81]

No because it is a belief structure, no one (christian or not ) should impose thier value structure on another-(I am a failed Catholic). I also see alot of divisions sprouting up within christianity as well. The "Liberty University" and "strict interpretation of the bible" types cause my friends father(episcapalian(sp?) priest) to go nuts.

mn81 how do you add that tag line, and if your wearing that mask I am wearing krugman

About the 'imposing values' deal... Many Christians will disagree with you on that point. Evangelism ('sharing'/'imposing' a belief system) is an important part of the life of many Christians (depending on your interpretation of the Bible, it is a sort of calling). ...but I am not going to start a whole controversy about that.

Yeah, so the tag line... You just go to "User CP" and under one of the options you can choose to add a signature.

by the way... Krugman is a good choice. He has been on fire lately.

 

[MN81]

I support the right of religious groups to endorse, condemn, or excommunicate whoever they want. It's their club, they get to say who's in it and who's out (or who has cooties). I just don't like when they try to make it the law for everyone else.

So we agree?

 

[trustwomen]

So we agree?

I guess so. As long as the religious moralizing doesn't have any legal teeth. Which it still does, unfortunately.

Speaking of religious convictions: when I was a counselor, one patient came in ALL broken up about having an abortion because it was against her strong Christian faith. Of course, the reason she was there was that she had had premarital sex (fornication - check) with a married man (adultery - check) and had used a condom (supposedly god hates those - check) but it had broken and she got pregnant. Her faith gave her no problem with any of these, although it was supposedly "vital to her life and her sense of self"... She went on and on about how she didn't know how she could live with herself after killing her baby, how at least she wasn't like those sluts in the waiting room, and asked me how can I possibly do this horrible job. I assessed (accurately, I think) that she was not OK with having an abortion today. I told her to go home to think about it more, maybe look at other options that she would feel better about. THEN she got really abusive, borderline violent, insisted that we do it right then, started calling us all the names in the book...

She went home and we did not see her again. She tried to make more appointments but a) we're human too and b) she is the very definition of a walking lawsuit, so we refused. She might have gotten in if she had been polite (i.e. refrained from telling the receptionist "I refuse to have that same ***** as my counselor this time").

There are so many other similar stories: protesters who bring in their daughters but the following week are back on the picket line; "pro-life" legislators who pay for their daughters' and mistresses' abortions; I could go on.

So I'm not sure I trust ANYBODY'S right to tell anyone else how to be moral.

 

[MN81]

...one patient came in ALL broken up about having an abortion because it was against her strong Christian faith. Of course, the reason she was there was that she had had premarital sex (fornication - check) with a married man (adultery - check) and had used a condom (supposedly god hates those - check) but it had broken and she got pregnant. Her faith gave her no problem with any of these, although it was supposedly "vital to her life and her sense of self"... She went on and on about how she didn't know how she could live with herself after killing her baby, how at least she wasn't like those sluts in the waiting room, and asked me how can I possibly do this horrible job. I assessed (accurately, I think) that she was not OK with having an abortion today. I told her to go home to think about it more, maybe look at other options that she would feel better about. THEN she got really abusive, borderline violent, insisted that we do it right then, started calling us all the names in the book...

She went home and we did not see her again. She tried to make more appointments but a) we're human too and b) she is the very definition of a walking lawsuit, so we refused. She might have gotten in if she had been polite (i.e. refrained from telling the receptionist "I refuse to have that same ***** as my counselor this time").

There are so many other similar stories: protesters who bring in their daughters but the following week are back on the picket line; "pro-life" legislators who pay for their daughters' and mistresses' abortions; I could go on....

It is easy to say that you belong to a certain religion when it is convenient. But what happens when the rubber meets the road?

It is easy to point the finger and say "look at those sluts using abortion as a common form of birth control." But what happens when you end up pregnant by mistake?

Unfortunately, people (Christians and otherwise) are often quick to judge, and often slow to take responsiblity.

 

[8744]

Are you sure YOU have a diabetic foot clinic?!! So you are saying that you have NEVER told a diabetic patient that they are going to have to have their foot amputated b/c of their diabetes??!! Oh, wait is that not considered sad to you??!! Again GROW UP!

What is there about the unborn fetus that could possibly make a woman sad when it is discarded? A foot, after all, is a very usefull appendage the absence of which makes life difficult.

A better analogy would be to ask if there are any sad moments when I remove a skin tag.

Let me rephrase the question: If the unborn fetus is just an unfeeling blob of non-sentient, non-feeling tissue why are there sad moments in the abortion clinic?

Or did you inadvertantly give the game away by talking too much?

 

[8744]

...you MUST realize that you are not winning hearts and minds on this one...

Why do you think I want to win hearts and minds when to you this means either accepting your view of abortion or just keeping quirt about it?

 

[sacrament]

Let me rephrase the question: If the unborn fetus is just an unfeeling blob of non-sentient, non-feeling tissue why are there sad moments in the abortion clinic?

Because human women are biologically programmed to regard this particular unfeeling blob of non-sentient tissue ("non-feeling" is arguable and a moot point anyway) with a particular affection. It can be psychologically traumatizing to have an abortion, but the trauma is an artifact of our evolution. That doesn't make it any less significant, of course, but I also don't think it speaks to the moral issue at hand in any way.

 

[Flea girl]

What is there about the unborn fetus that could possibly make a woman sad when it is discarded? A foot, after all, is a very usefull appendage the absence of which makes life difficult.

A better analogy would be to ask if there are any sad moments when I remove a skin tag.

Let me rephrase the question: If the unborn fetus is just an unfeeling blob of non-sentient, non-feeling tissue why are there sad moments in the abortion clinic?

Or did you inadvertantly give the game away by talking too much?

I think you have it reversed my boy. You were the one that brought up the foot clinic, not I. You are the one that talks too much! So, can I remove your foot, and let us see how you feel about that. Basically you are stating that people should not feel ANY emotion when they lose an appendage? Again go back to work and attempt to grow up please for the sake of your patient!

 

[8744]

About the 'imposing values' deal... Many Christians will disagree with you on that point. Evangelism ('sharing'/'imposing' a belief system) is an important part of the life of many Christians (depending on your interpretation of the Bible, it is a sort of calling). ...but I am not going to start a whole controversy about that.

This is a weak argument of support for your views because it is so easy to "reduce to absurdity." Every law, from the tax code to the drug laws is an attempt by one group to impose its values on another. If we carry your assertion to it's ridiculous length then we can have no law at all as no one will have the authority to restrict anyone doing anything at all.

I would point out many moslems are also against abortion for religious reasons as well as many Jews and Hindus. If that's not enough, there are also many atheists who are against abortion on moral grounds.

 

[Flea girl]

Why do you think I want to win hearts and minds when to you this means either accepting your view of abortion or just keeping quirt about it?

No it shows how closed-minded you are. Regardless of your views on abortion.

 

[Flea girl]

This is a weak argument of support for your views because it is so easy to "reduce to absurdity." Every law, from the tax code to the drug laws is an attempt by one group to impose its values on another. If we carry your assertion to it's ridiculous length then we can have no law at all as no one will have the authority to restrict anyone doing anything at all.

I would point out many moslems are also against abortion for religious reasons as well as many Jews and Hindus. If that's not enough, there are also many atheists who are against abortion on moral grounds.

Some of my best friends are anti-abortion, we can agree to disagree. However, I know you have mentioned that you have a daughter, tell me how would you feel if she was brutely raped and ended up pregnant and was 15yrs?

 

[trustwomen]

I think you have it reversed my boy. You were the one that brought up the foot clinic, not I. You are the one that talks too much! So, can I remove your foot, and let us see how you feel about that. Basically you are stating that people should not feel ANY emotion when they lose an appendage? Again go back to work and attempt to grow up please for the sake of your patient!

Actually I think he was saying that it's reasonable for people to be sad when losing their foot, but it's not reasonable for them to be sad when they have an abortion UNLESS abortion really is murder. It's fairly simplistic, black-and-white thinking (no surprise there) and I gather that he honestly believes this is some sort of "trap" he's got us in, where we'll have to "admit" that abortion is this terrible terrible thing.

Except that women can be sad after an abortion for many reasons - and it's worth noting that they are all, without exception, even sadder before the abortion (in the counseling session). Getting pregnant when you don't want to be is an overwhelming, confusing, scary experience. You don't know who you can turn to for help who won't tell you what to do or judge you for what you want. (Sounds like there is at least one doctor out there that would give the "young ladies" a stern lecture, so this fear is well-founded.) Going through an abortion can be physically painful (although far less painful than childbirth, from what I hear), sometimes the people in your life are less than supportive, and it's SAD that I, as a well-meaning stranger, have to be the one to hug them and tell them they're OK. That WE are the ones they can talk to. Panda, I really hope you don't have daughters. Because I PROMISE you that they won't come to you when they make a mistake. If you're LUCKY, they'll come to me, and I'll make sure that they are safe and healthy and can go on with their lives. If you're not (i.e. if your side gets its way), they'll go to some shady "docta" that their friend told them about who does abortions in his basement, or they'll order drugs on the internet, or they'll put a coat hanger up themselves...

Actually, scratch that last point. Minors already do those things in the U.S., because of parental consent laws for abortion. (Before you accuse me of hyperbole, know that I've talked to them personally.) If you were 14 and needed an abortion, and your dad was Panda, wouldn't you? After all, at that age you really don't know any better and have no concept of risk or mortality... My dad was very much like Panda right down to the "young lady", a minister even (although he also beat us... you don't do that, do you Panda?) and I sure as hell didn't go to him when I got pregnant from my first time (the only time in all my life without protection, no less). I was lucky (i.e. Canadian): I could get an abortion for free, confidentially, and without having to leave town. I WOULD have done anything necessary to do it privately - including travel anywhere, run away, put my life in the hands of god knows who.

I was sad in the waiting room: sad that I had to go through it all alone (nobody knew); sad that I was so stupid as to have gotten pregnant; and yes, for a few days, sad that I would never know whether I would have had a boy or a girl. Did I think it was murder, even for a second? No. Did I think that the embryo was ever anything else than a blob of tissue at that stage? No.

Clearly, Panda, you're not really in touch with emotions. Sadness is complex; women are complex; teenage girls are even more complex. Flea girl is reacting so strongly because you are denigrating her complexity out-of-hand; you are stepping on foreign soil, my friend. Watch your step when you try to lecture women about our lives.

 

[trustwomen]

Some of my best friends are anti-abortion, we can agree to disagree. However, I know you have mentioned that you have a daughter, tell me how would you feel if she was brutely raped and ended up pregnant and was 15yrs?

Flea girl, I can answer this for him. He would say, like my dad always said, that two wrongs don't make a right, that rape is a terrible crime but that it should not be compounded with murder, and that he would support her emotionally throughout the pregnancy as best he can, and would raise the child for her so she could get on with her life. That last point would probably also apply if she got pregnant by means other than rape.

And it all sounds lovely. But as a counselor (and as someone who heard the very same thing) I can tell you this: knowing all this, she WON'T go to him if she does get raped or pregnant. Because this view MINIMIZES what it is to be pregnant, give birth, and be a mother. It trivializes what women go through ("oh, I just won't raise my baby, that'll be fine then"). It has as its implicit theme that having a baby is no big deal and any girl, given the right support, will be OK with having one at any stage of life. It rings just as false to a young woman as does the spiel of "just give it up for adoption, it'll be better for the baby and you can get on with your life". He can't understand how false it rings, and what the real issues are, because he is not us.

I'm telling you right now, Flea girl, keep your values and your compassion intact. Don't waste your time arguing with the likes of him or your energy will be drained. Keep your heart open and your empathy in tip-top shape, and don't let your anger get the better of you... but KEEP THAT ANGER because it will fuel, in your heart, all the good work you will do in your life.

Hugs~

 

[MN81]

This is a weak argument of support for your views because it is so easy to "reduce to absurdity." Every law, from the tax code to the drug laws is an attempt by one group to impose its values on another. If we carry your assertion to it's ridiculous length then we can have no law at all as no one will have the authority to restrict anyone doing anything at all.

I would point out many moslems are also against abortion for religious reasons as well as many Jews and Hindus. If that's not enough, there are also many atheists who are against abortion on moral grounds.

I am not suggesting that no group try to impose a certain political view on society.

I am suggesting that Christians not expect non-Christians to be pro-life based on Christian convictions.

You may substitute "Muslim/Jew/Hindu/Buddist/Atheist" for "Christian" in that statement.

 

[Flea girl]

Flea girl, I can answer this for him. He would say, like my dad always said, that two wrongs don't make a right, that rape is a terrible crime but that it should not be compounded with murder, and that he would support her emotionally throughout the pregnancy as best he can, and would raise the child for her so she could get on with her life. That last point would probably also apply if she got pregnant by means other than rape.

And it all sounds lovely. But as a counselor (and as someone who heard the very same thing) I can tell you this: knowing all this, she WON'T go to him if she does get raped or pregnant. Because this view MINIMIZES what it is to be pregnant, give birth, and be a mother. It trivializes what women go through ("oh, I just won't raise my baby, that'll be fine then"). It has as its implicit theme that having a baby is no big deal and any girl, given the right support, will be OK with having one at any stage of life. It rings just as false to a young woman as does the spiel of "just give it up for adoption, it'll be better for the baby and you can get on with your life". He can't understand how false it rings, and what the real issues are, because he is not us.

I'm telling you right now, Flea girl, keep your values and your compassion intact. Don't waste your time arguing with the likes of him or your energy will be drained. Keep your heart open and your empathy in tip-top shape, and don't let your anger get the better of you... but KEEP THAT ANGER because it will fuel, in your heart, all the good work you will do in your life.

Hugs~

Thanks you for all of your kind words! I try to avoid these types of debates but everytime I think I am done, they pull me back in. Yeah, I watched way too many Godfather movies back in the day . I have come to the conclusion that the only way someone's mind is going to change, in regards to this topic, is to have some sort of personal association with abortion. For better or worse, but that is what I have noticed. Nothing that is said on this board is going to change anyones mind. I just feel that I have to express my view's to balance things out a bit. Thank you for sharing your own personal story. I think that was very brave and couragous of you to do so. Good luck in getting into med. school, let me know where you end up!

 

[jane70]

regarding religions supporting women's control over her body...

religious coalition for reproductive choice:
http://www.rcrc.org/

Catholics for a Free Choice:
http://www.cath4choice.org/

Panda....Judaism supports women's right to choose. They are not anti-choice. Both reform and orthodox so you need to alter your message regarding that one.
In addition Panda, I'm sure everyone wholeheartedly supports your right to not have an abortion. You don't have to have one. But don't you ever tell me what I can and can't do with my body. You don't know me, you won't be there and for you (and all other anti-choicers) out there to make the decision for a woman, a decision which will dramatically change the rest of her life and what she can do is not only sick but inhumane. Equating the rights of an unborn fetus to the rights of a woman only serves to diminish women. Women can never be fully equal in society when they cannot be free to make their own decisions about their own bodies. And for anyone who says the cliche argument that they should have thought about it before sex, just stop. Half of all pregnancies occuring every year are unintended and most were using birth control. In reality, people have sex more than just to procreate.

 

[jane70]

one more thing....did you know that (pro choice education project)

77% of all anti-choice leaders are men. 100% of them will never be pregnant.

 

[Sohalia]

This is an awesome, well written post. Thank you for taking the time to write this.

Actually I think he was saying that it's reasonable for people to be sad when losing their foot, but it's not reasonable for them to be sad when they have an abortion UNLESS abortion really is murder. It's fairly simplistic, black-and-white thinking (no surprise there) and I gather that he honestly believes this is some sort of "trap" he's got us in, where we'll have to "admit" that abortion is this terrible terrible thing.

Except that women can be sad after an abortion for many reasons - and it's worth noting that they are all, without exception, even sadder before the abortion (in the counseling session). Getting pregnant when you don't want to be is an overwhelming, confusing, scary experience. You don't know who you can turn to for help who won't tell you what to do or judge you for what you want. (Sounds like there is at least one doctor out there that would give the "young ladies" a stern lecture, so this fear is well-founded.) Going through an abortion can be physically painful (although far less painful than childbirth, from what I hear), sometimes the people in your life are less than supportive, and it's SAD that I, as a well-meaning stranger, have to be the one to hug them and tell them they're OK. That WE are the ones they can talk to. Panda, I really hope you don't have daughters. Because I PROMISE you that they won't come to you when they make a mistake. If you're LUCKY, they'll come to me, and I'll make sure that they are safe and healthy and can go on with their lives. If you're not (i.e. if your side gets its way), they'll go to some shady "docta" that their friend told them about who does abortions in his basement, or they'll order drugs on the internet, or they'll put a coat hanger up themselves...

Actually, scratch that last point. Minors already do those things in the U.S., because of parental consent laws for abortion. (Before you accuse me of hyperbole, know that I've talked to them personally.) If you were 14 and needed an abortion, and your dad was Panda, wouldn't you? After all, at that age you really don't know any better and have no concept of risk or mortality... My dad was very much like Panda right down to the "young lady", a minister even (although he also beat us... you don't do that, do you Panda?) and I sure as hell didn't go to him when I got pregnant from my first time (the only time in all my life without protection, no less). I was lucky (i.e. Canadian): I could get an abortion for free, confidentially, and without having to leave town. I WOULD have done anything necessary to do it privately - including travel anywhere, run away, put my life in the hands of god knows who.

I was sad in the waiting room: sad that I had to go through it all alone (nobody knew); sad that I was so stupid as to have gotten pregnant; and yes, for a few days, sad that I would never know whether I would have had a boy or a girl. Did I think it was murder, even for a second? No. Did I think that the embryo was ever anything else than a blob of tissue at that stage? No.

Clearly, Panda, you're not really in touch with emotions. Sadness is complex; women are complex; teenage girls are even more complex. Flea girl is reacting so strongly because you are denigrating her complexity out-of-hand; you are stepping on foreign soil, my friend. Watch your step when you try to lecture women about our lives.

 

[Brainsucker]

one more thing....did you know that (pro choice education project)

77% of all anti-choice leaders are men. 100% of them will never be pregnant.

I happen to be pro-choice (though not for healthy babies and mothers in the 3rd trimester) but I have to point out that this post is identity politics at its nastiest. To deny that people might have reasonable ideas about something because of gender (or race, or religion) is ridiculous. This kind of post cheapens debate. (Not that this debate has been particularly terrific mind you...) Please, attack Panda Bear's ideas, but attack them based on their flaws, not on his gender.

 

[trustwomen]

That doesn't sound very pro-choice at all. So you're only "pro-choice" if there's something wrong with the fetus?

I think he means "I'm against abortion in the third trimester when neither the woman nor the fetus has a health problem". In other words, he supports Roe v. Wade! (Roe states clearly that the state can prohibit abortions after fetal viability unless there is a life or health risk to the woman).

I want to reassure everyone; the kind of abortion everyone seems to be against JUST DOESN'T HAPPEN. A woman in her third trimester seeking an abortion would a) get told at her local clinic "sorry, you're too far along" and since she is over 24-26 weeks they don't even bother referring her or b) if she happens to find the number to one of the three clinics in the U.S. that go above 26 weeks (that's LMP folks, so we're talking about just under 6 months post-conception, i.e. safely in the second trimester - remember, pregnancy is 40 weeks), the following happens:
"Sorry, ma'am, if your health is not at risk and the fetus is viable, there's nothing we can do".

One of the women I began my career with counseled a 17-year-old who had been raped by her father (he then went to hang himself in the front yard right after). Mom was mentally ill, brothers were raging alcoholics, very abusive family; dad's death meant dire financial straits on top of everything. Girl decided to get an abortion, started mowing lawns and babysitting and pawning her stuff, trying to find money any way she could. Got refused at the clinics because a) she didn't have parental consent and b) by the time she'd raised the money, she was beginning her second trimester and it cost more anyway. So she kept mowing and sitting and selling (started stealing, too) but could never catch up with her growing belly. By the time she finally discovered that there are groups out there that can help her with funding and with getting a judicial bypass (for the consent), she was 27 weeks. So a Kansas clinic famous for its "late-term baby killing" had its psychiatrist evaluate her, to see if carrying to term could be construed as a danger to her mental health (cause serious and irreversible harm to her, I think the standard is).

So this girl, despite everything, was a real trouper. She was determined and strong and had amazed the counselors at every turn with her resilience and ingenuity. So what does the shrink say? The fact that she IS so resilient means that she won't be totally destroyed by the delivery, so sorry, no abortion for her. So she went into a local shelter and gave birth to her sister a few months later.

So when I hear people say that anyone can get an abortion for any reason right until birth, I get REALLY REALLY mad...

 

[Brainsucker]

See above.

I mean that I'm pro-choice about any abortions in the first 2 trimesters, with restrictions on the 3rd. I guess that's not as pro-choice as NARAL would want, but I think it's a reasonable position. I think it's equally ridiculous to say that a blastocyst is a person or to say that a viable fetus is not.

 

[trustwomen]

I mean that I'm pro-choice about any abortions in the first 2 trimesters, with restrictions on the 3rd. I guess that's not as pro-choice as NARAL would want, but I think it's a reasonable position. I think it's equally ridiculous to say that a blastocyst is a person or to say that a viable fetus is not.

I'm with you on that, but think about this: if a woman in her third trimester (viable fetus) really doesn't want to be pregnant, what should we do?

If you say "tell her no", well that's what we do now, and that's why we have so many babies dropped in dumpsters and women shooting themselves in the stomach at 8 months.

If you say "lock her up until delivery", that's kind of cruel and (I think) violates a whole bunch of civil rights. Plus it turns women into brood mares, kind of Atwoodesque.

If you say (as I used to) "give her a c-section right then and there, and place the baby for adoption", well that's actually rather humane and I would support that option, except I've learned that NO DOCTOR WILL EVER DO THAT. Intentionally delivering a preemie with massive probability of health problems, not to mention a real resource-sucker in the NICU, for no "medical" reason? Instant lawsuit material, and a big one too (and we all know how OBs get hosed when it comes to malpractice).

So what are we left with? How about intensive counseling, doing your damndest to find a way to make this pregnancy less atrocious for the woman, but if she won't budge... what then?

I remember one woman who called me when I ran a pro-choice hotline. She was 40 weeks, really, no joke, 40 weeks, and refused prenatal care flatly ("I ain't gettin' prenatal care for no rapist's baby"). No anger, no fear, no inflection - terrifying to me. I called a hospital near her and arranged for her to go in and be induced - she would be out in a day or two, she would never have to look at the baby, the staff promised not to scare her off, and I had to emphasize that it was her health I was worried about and it WASN'T SAFE to deliver alone at home (she contested that point, said that she'd heard it wasn't that bad, and besides that would "fix the problem"). If anyone, ANYONE had talked to her about the value of "the baby" she would have been out like a flash.

The hospital only agreed to see her because she was 40 weeks. They said if she was less than that, even 38 weeks, they WOULD NOT deliver her (though they might put her in restraints, in psych). Now we all know that a 38 week baby will be FINE - but that didn't change their policy.

 

[Brainsucker]

Well, as you yourself mentioned, this is a very rare instance. But...since we're on it, I guess I'd go with counseling followed by locking her up if that didn't work--yeah, sucks for her, but getting dumped in a dumpster sucks more for the baby. (Hadn't heard of the shooting, but that's obviously terrible for both parties.)

Not to dodge the question, but I feel like better availability of other services beforehand would stop this. I guess that wouldn't stop a woman that planned to have her baby until she changed her mind a week before her due date or something, but maybe she'd be more receptive to persuasion.

Any idea why she didn't get rid of the fetus earlier? Seems like she really hated it and would have wanted to get rid of it ASAP.

 

[trustwomen]

Not to dodge the question, but I feel like better availability of other services beforehand would stop this.

Actually, that's not dodging the question at all - I was hoping someone would "click" on this point. Indeed, fewer restrictions on abortion means earlier abortions. We don't have many dumpster babies in Canada, because there are no legal restrictions and abortion is COVERED by our health care (did you know only 13 states - if it's still that many - cover abortions under Medicaid?). We also have about 2/3 of the overall abortion rate per capita, and 95% of those are 1st trimester (as opposed to 89% in the U.S.) The Netherlands are just as liberal as Canada and have even lower abortion rates, the lowest in the world; clearly the way to reduce abortion is not to ban it or make it harder to get. As for legal restrictions, I'm talking about parental consent laws, so-called "informed consent laws" (you read a pack of judgmental state-written lies then have to wait even longer for your abortion), and TRAP (targeted regulation of abortion providers) laws which impose a pile of restrictions on abortion clinics that other outpatient clinics don't have to deal with - the goal of which is to force them to close. And, of course, the Hyde amendment to Medicaid which is the greatest source of misery to those who are trying to prevent later abortions (which is the pro-choice side, by the way).

Third-trimester abortion is such a red herring, really; it's so incredibly rare and happens only when the woman and/or the fetus is at serious risk. Yes, I worked in the field long enough to have been part of a whole lot of stories, but don't go thinking that these are common occurrences. When you talk about abortion, remember, you really are talking about 1st trimester abortion (9 out of 10 of abortions out there).

You and I differ on what should be done for those rare cases when a woman does wind up that far along. I wouldn't have locked up the incested teen at 27 weeks, for example, and I think that a greater evil was done by making her continue the pregnancy than would have been done by ending it. But please note that you are actually very run-of-the-mill for NARAL and other groups and I am the radical here. I wasn't when I came to this work, but that is the way it goes...

 

[trustwomen]

Any idea why she didn't get rid of the fetus earlier? Seems like she really hated it and would have wanted to get rid of it ASAP.

If I had gone anywhere near any kind of judgmental question (and she would have interpreted that one as such) she would have hung up the phone and I would have lost her forever. I had her first name and the city she lived in, and that's it.

So I can't answer your question; but I'm sure the answer is complex.