When is "pray away the gay" just advocating harm?

[DynamicDidactic]

I am a Christian who is LGBTQ friendly.

@Mama Bear this is not meant to pick on you (really this is open to everyone) but more my curiosity (perhaps not appropriate for the thread). Straight white non-Christian male here (maybe more importantly I grew up in a large, liberal, urban setting)...

LGBTQ friendly? I have never heard of this term before. I am typically friendly to human beings (unless I have some inherent reason to be wary). One's sexual orientation has never been a caveat to my (non-romantic) behaviors. Or are you saying the mode for Christians is to not be friendly and you are bucking that trend? If that is the case, I would have a problem with identifying with that group (e.g., I was at the Capitol on Jan 6th waving a Trump banner but I'm not supporting discriminatory policies). I guess if someone said they were a Christian (or Jewish or Muslim) feminist I'd have a similar problem. Why associate yourself with a religious group that is, by it's core nature, misogynistic?

Also, I hear this sometimes, "I am a Christian" and I feel like I am missing something. What does it mean to say that? It is not describing the sect of Christianity (e.g., Catholic, Protestant), which provides a good deal of cultural reference. As far as I can tell, all this means is that I believe Jesus was the messiah and I am religious.

Again, lots of ignorance on my part when it comes to religion.

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[Sanman]

@Mama Bear this is not meant to pick on you (really this is open to everyone) but more my curiosity (perhaps not appropriate for the thread). Straight white non-Christian male here (maybe more importantly I grew up in a large, liberal, urban setting)...

LGBTQ friendly? I have never heard of this term before. I am typically friendly to human beings (unless I have some inherent reason to be wary). One's sexual orientation has never been a caveat to my (non-romantic) behaviors. Or are you saying the mode for Christians is to not be friendly and you are bucking that trend? If that is the case, I would have a problem with identifying with that group (e.g., I was at the Capitol on Jan 6th waving a Trump banner but I'm not supporting discriminatory policies). I guess if someone said they were a Christian (or Jewish or Muslim) feminist I'd have a similar problem. Why associate yourself with a religious group that is, by it's core nature, misogynistic?

Also, I hear this sometimes, "I am a Christian" and I feel like I am missing something. What does it mean to say that? It is not describing the sect of Christianity (e.g., Catholic, Protestant), which provides a good deal of cultural reference. As far as I can tell, all this means is that I believe Jesus was the messiah and I am religious.

Again, lots of ignorance on my part when it comes to religion.

It surprises me that you haven't heard the term before as I am very familiar with it in many non-religious contexts. LGBTQ friendly college, business, therapist, etc. I could not tell you if I picked this up in NYC or during my time in the south, but I thought it fairly common.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Mod Note: An earlier posting has been removed due to being inconsistent with the SDN Values, which includes a belief "in the scientific method and evidence-based medicine," the latter among which conversion therapy would not be a part.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

It surprises me that you haven't heard the term before as I am very familiar with it in many non-religious contexts. LGBTQ friendly college, business, therapist, etc. I could not tell you if I picked this up in NYC or during my time in the south, but I thought it fairly common.

Perhaps a generational thing? I am from NYC and I do not remember a time when this was a common phrase (I mean, I am the minority in certain areas). Either way, to me it seems like being friendly to people is the de facto mode. OTOH, I am unfriendly to terrorists and Yankee fans. More importantly, how does a psychologist deal with the cognitive dissonance of understanding there is nothing different about gay folk (who vary in assholeness as much as any straight folk) yet align themselves with a group of people that are anti-gay.

It is like saying I am Asian-friendly. Oh, should someone just have assumed that I am anti-Asian unless I said that?

 

[Sanman]

Perhaps a generational thing? I am from NYC and I do not remember a time when this was a common phrase. Either way, to me it seems like being friendly to people is the de facto mode. OTOH, I am unfriendly to terrorists and Yankee fans. More importantly, how does a psychologist deal with the cognitive dissonance of understanding there is nothing different about gay folk (who vary in assholeness as much as any straight folk) yet align themselves with a group of people that are anti-gay.

As to your last question, I think the question is whether they believe that nothing is different. Either way, one would hope that a psychologist could be civil, act in a professional manner, and leave personal beliefs at the door. For example, I can continue this discourse despite your poor life choices in regards to sports teams.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

I can continue this discourse despite your poor life choices in regards to sports teams.

I can't even argue that. Indeed, my choice teams have never won a championship during my fandom (I was too young to enjoy '86). Wasn't alive the last time the Jets and Knicks won anything.

 

[DownJonesIndustrial]

@Mama Bear this is not meant to pick on you (really this is open to everyone) but more my curiosity (perhaps not appropriate for the thread). Straight white non-Christian male here (maybe more importantly I grew up in a large, liberal, urban setting)...

LGBTQ friendly? I have never heard of this term before. I am typically friendly to human beings (unless I have some inherent reason to be wary). One's sexual orientation has never been a caveat to my (non-romantic) behaviors. Or are you saying the mode for Christians is to not be friendly and you are bucking that trend? If that is the case, I would have a problem with identifying with that group (e.g., I was at the Capitol on Jan 6th waving a Trump banner but I'm not supporting discriminatory policies). I guess if someone said they were a Christian (or Jewish or Muslim) feminist I'd have a similar problem. Why associate yourself with a religious group that is, by it's core nature, misogynistic?

Also, I hear this sometimes, "I am a Christian" and I feel like I am missing something. What does it mean to say that? It is not describing the sect of Christianity (e.g., Catholic, Protestant), which provides a good deal of cultural reference. As far as I can tell, all this means is that I believe Jesus was the messiah and I am religious.

Again, lots of ignorance on my part when it comes to religion.

No, Christians are generally as congenial and friendly as anyone. The term gay friendly or something is sort of silly. Forgiveness abounds but acceptance is unnecessary. You can be anything you want to be without condoning.

 

[DownJonesIndustrial]

I bet they think they do. I'd bet money that ultra-bigots would score super high on measures of how multiculturally aware they think they are. Look at the poster above, who is deeply offended at how awful and bigoted the world is for not letting them force everyone else to comply with their religion.

We paint ourselves into a bad spot in training if we simultaneously state that we all have biases (which I agree with) and then refuse to openly discuss/process some of those. All we'd do by requiring "embracing mc in all its forms" is push people to avoid acknowledging and working on biases. Process, not end point.

Are you referring to me? If you are, you've completely misunderstood. I'm not offended by anyone being homosexual. My life continues the same regardless of your/their actions. I just believe in my core it's the wrong way to live, and I've certainly never forced my Faith on anyone. To the point of prayer, when you believe, you might be surprised by the power of prayer. My original purpose to replying was to share in how prayer is positive, hopeful, and ultimately constructive.

 

[MCParent]

Are you referring to me? If you are, you've completely misunderstood. I'm not offended by anyone being homosexual. My life continues the same regardless of your/their actions. I just believe in my core it's the wrong way to live, and I've certainly never forced my Faith on anyone. To the point of prayer, when you believe, you might be surprised by the power of prayer. My original purpose to replying was to share in how prayer is positive, hopeful, and ultimately constructive.

Yes, to you. I understand just fine.

 

[Sanman]

I can't even argue that. Indeed, my choice teams have never won a championship during my fandom (I was too young to enjoy '86). Wasn't alive the last time the Jets and Knicks won anything.

The knicks did well in the 90s and early 2000s with some conference championships. Then Dolan and Isiah Thomas decided to ruin them. I enjoyed the Ewing/Starks/Mason era and the Sprewell/Camby era. It has been a bit painful since then. Looking up though.

The '86 Mets did prove cocaine was a performance enhancing drug...then they banned it from the clubhouse and forgot to bring the anabolic steroids.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

Perhaps a generational thing? I am from NYC and I do not remember a time when this was a common phrase (I mean, I am the minority in certain areas). Either way, to me it seems like being friendly to people is the de facto mode. OTOH, I am unfriendly to terrorists and Yankee fans. More importantly, how does a psychologist deal with the cognitive dissonance of understanding there is nothing different about gay folk (who vary in assholeness as much as any straight folk) yet align themselves with a group of people that are anti-gay.

It is like saying I am Asian-friendly. Oh, should someone just have assumed that I am anti-Asian unless I said that?

Agreed. I guess as a practicing clinical psychologist doing almost exclusively individual psychotherapy--who also went into the field because I perceived, rightly or wrongly, that the fundamental focus was on the individual, not the 'tribe' or group to which people supposedly belonged--it's frustrating to see increasing emphasis given to dividing the population into groups and focusing on 'group-level' phenomena vs. the individual (patient). Now, of course, if there are relevant data supporting the utility of viewing an individual patient in psychotherapy as a member of a group (in ways relevant for the successful practice of that therapy) then that's all well and good. But I still am of the opinion that--at least at the level of psychotherapy--the focus should consistently be on the client as an individual (who may indeed vary from their supposed/presumed 'group norms' by virtue of being an individual). And a cardinal rule of professional psychotherapy, at least how I was trained, is that with very few exceptions (imminent suicidal or homicidal risk, child abuse), the psychotherapist is not to push any particular ideology or value system on the client. Rather, through Socratic dialogue, the therapist should collaboratively explore the client's beliefs with him/her and collaboratively process whether those beliefs are rational and/or are functional for them in relation to their goals and their own unique personal learning history and value systems. So the 'conversion therapy' nonsense fails not only on the 'non-emirically supported' grounds (no evidence from basic science supporting the theory of intervention, no controlled outcome data supportive of the intervention), but it also, more fundamentally to me, fails on the grounds that it is basically a form of trying to push a particular ideological framework on a psychotherapy client which is about as close to a violation of the 'prime directive' of psychotherapy as you can get.

 

[cara susanna]

Where things REALLY get interesting is for the folks calling themselves 'clinical chaplains' or pastoral counselors.

As a psychologist, I don't prescribe medications, service dogs, marijuana, or religious creeds.

Every single Christian counselor that I've known professionally (not psychologists, I should add) had a focus on "pornography addiction" or "sex addiction." I personally think that's another debate, although obviously not as black and white as conversion therapy.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

Every single Christian counselor that I've known professionally (not psychologists, I should add) had a focus on "pornography addiction" or "sex addiction." I personally think that's another debate, although obviously not as black and white as conversion therapy.

Yeah, esp since the literature indicates that these 'addictions' explain little/no variance not accounted for by mood and substance use disorders which should be diagnosed and treated.

 

[Shiori]

I think saying you're "x"-friendly is just a safety signal to people who have had negative experiences from people who feel they are neutral or "open." When I'm shopping for a new PCP or dentist, I go to their website and check out how diverse their pictures are. Marginalized folks are often left to read tea leaves to avoid having a really negative experiences. Other places might be perfectly lovely, but it's hard to know that. It's not ideal or empirically sound, but until there are more concrete shifts in the way we train providers to manage their biases across disciplines that are actually productive, people are stuck doing their best.

 

[MCParent]

Every single Christian counselor that I've known professionally (not psychologists, I should add) had a focus on "pornography addiction" or "sex addiction." I personally think that's another debate, although obviously not as black and white as conversion therapy.

With only one exception, every case I have ever had or supervised where porn addiction was mentioned went something like:

Pt: dr you have to help I’m addicted to porn it’s terrible.
Me/supervisee: ok, how much porn do you watch?
Pt: it’s terrrible…. Up to three times a week now!
Me/supervisee:….

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

@Mama Bear this is not meant to pick on you (really this is open to everyone) but more my curiosity (perhaps not appropriate for the thread). Straight white non-Christian male here (maybe more importantly I grew up in a large, liberal, urban setting)...

LGBTQ friendly? I have never heard of this term before. I am typically friendly to human beings (unless I have some inherent reason to be wary). One's sexual orientation has never been a caveat to my (non-romantic) behaviors. Or are you saying the mode for Christians is to not be friendly and you are bucking that trend? If that is the case, I would have a problem with identifying with that group (e.g., I was at the Capitol on Jan 6th waving a Trump banner but I'm not supporting discriminatory policies). I guess if someone said they were a Christian (or Jewish or Muslim) feminist I'd have a similar problem. Why associate yourself with a religious group that is, by it's core nature, misogynistic?

Also, I hear this sometimes, "I am a Christian" and I feel like I am missing something. What does it mean to say that? It is not describing the sect of Christianity (e.g., Catholic, Protestant), which provides a good deal of cultural reference. As far as I can tell, all this means is that I believe Jesus was the messiah and I am religious.

Again, lots of ignorance on my part when it comes to religion.

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[cara susanna]

With only one exception, every case I have ever had or supervised where porn addiction was mentioned went something like:

Pt: dr you have to help I’m addicted to porn it’s terrible.
Me/supervisee: ok, how much porn do you watch?
Pt: it’s terrrible…. Up to three times a week now!
Me/supervisee:….

I read an article that discussed how distress over porn use is almost entirely related to religiosity. Hrmmm...

 

[WisNeuro]

Ah, good ole scrupulosity.

 

[borne_before]

I read an article that discussed how distress over porn use is almost entirely related to religiosity. Hrmmm...

I think clinicians should also differentiate between distress over porn use and "post nut clarity."

 

[MiniLop]

I think saying you're "x"-friendly is just a safety signal to people who have had negative experiences from people who feel they are neutral or "open." When I'm shopping for a new PCP or dentist, I go to their website and check out how diverse their pictures are. Marginalized folks are often left to read tea leaves to avoid having a really negative experiences. Other places might be perfectly lovely, but it's hard to know that. It's not ideal or empirically sound, but until there are more concrete shifts in the way we train providers to manage their biases across disciplines that are actually productive, people are stuck doing their best.

This.

With LGBT folks, there's such a long history of the mental health professional pathologizing those identities and behaviors, that many LGBT folks are rightfully suspicious about how new providers are going to respond to their gender or orientation. A therapist advertising as LGBT-friendly can be a sign that this particular provider may be responsive to (and knowledgeable about) their experience. As much as I wish it were otherwise, this is not a given right now.

 

[DownJonesIndustrial]

Yeah, esp since the literature indicates that these 'addictions' explain little/no variance not accounted for by mood and substance use disorders which should be diagnosed and treated.

Sexual sin is mentioned heavily in the Bible due to the harm to self, spirit, marriage, wellbeing, others, etc.

 

[MCParent]

Sexual sin is mentioned heavily in the Bible due to the harm to self, spirit, marriage, wellbeing, others, etc.

V good source for relationship advice.


Deuteronomy 22:28–29 (ESV)
28 “If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her.

 

[WisNeuro]

Sexual sin is mentioned heavily in the Bible due to the harm to self, spirit, marriage, wellbeing, others, etc.

What's the ICD 10 code for someone blending fabrics?

 

[DynamicDidactic]

Leviticus (19:27): “You shall not cut the hair on the sides of your heads, neither shall you clip off the edge of your beard.” To cut off another man's beard, according to Samuel (10:4) is an outrage.

Looks like hipsters are trying to be pious.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

This.

With LGBT folks, there's such a long history of the mental health professional pathologizing those identities and behaviors, that many LGBT folks are rightfully suspicious about how new providers are going to respond to their gender or orientation. A therapist advertising as LGBT-friendly can be a sign that this particular provider may be responsive to (and knowledgeable about) their experience. As much as I wish it were otherwise, this is not a given right now.

Yes, I get that. People seem to be missing my point, saying you are a LGBTQ-friendly Christian is almost an oxymoron. I asked about each portion separately b/c I may be ignorant of something.

As mentioned by @Fan_of_Meehl we should all be "friendly" as psychologists to all people that are seeking treatment. To be friendly to one group over another is discrimination. I'd like to help the LGBTQ folks as much as the racist, antisemitic, homophobic, trans-phobic people as well. I understand there is a history (and even current practice) of stuff that may make clients wary and, of course, create a more welcoming website and office that signals you are not a bad person. I do get why people would include the friendly portion, though I find it extraneous. But I don't get the Christian part. However, if you are really trying to change the world and make it better for marginalized folks then the goal is to create a society where one does not have to say they are "friendly" and instead it is a given. I want people to assume I am friendly to them, or assume nothing about me (I know, unlikely). However, to get there would require us to stop supporting the institutions that support discrimination overtly, like most religions.

I also understand the world isn't black and white. Anyway, what do I know? I'm not a fancy SJW.

 

[MiniLop]

As mentioned by @Fan_of_Meehl we should all be "friendly" as psychologists to all people that are seeking treatment.

I think there's lots of other language you could use instead of "friendly." "Experienced in working with LGBT clients"? "LGBT-inclusive?" I think any word is fine as long as it conveys the message. I can see "friendly" seeming kind of goofy, but I think it generally conveys the information that it's intended to convey (i.e., "this is a provider who is knowledge and experienced in working with this population and hopefully won't stigmatize you"). I think being "X-friendly" is about more than just not holding stigmatizing views about that group, but also about having knowledge about specific issues that group's experience and being able to incorporate that into treatment. For example, one of my areas of specialization is working with gender minority youth, and part of that is being knowledgeable about medical affirmation (hormones, surgery, etc.) and the steps required to obtain it. So if I advertise as "trans/nonbinary-friendly," that's also meant to communicate "you can assume I understand what you're talking about when you bring up these issues" and "I'm qualified to assist you in navigating this stuff."

To be friendly to one group over another is discrimination. I'd like to help the LGBTQ folks as much as the racist, antisemitic, homophobic, trans-phobic people as well.

I've definitely seen this debate on this forum before, but just to rehash, I think you can make a strong argument that, for example, refusing to work with someone who is openly anti-Semitic does not qualify as discrimination. While I'm not necessarily endorsing refusing to work with a specific client because of a view they hold, it's not the same to refuse to work with an anti-Semite as it is to refuse to work with someone who's gay.

 

[borne_before]

I think only psychologists would quibble over using the term friendly. For the general population, it's fine.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

I think only psychologists would quibble over using the term friendly. For the general population, it's fine.

I agree wholeheartedly.

I'll drop the topic... after saying that being experienced with LGBTQ issues (which I am not) is (to me) not the same as being friendly (which, I guess, I am). I also try not to support institutions that go out of their way to make life tough for these folks (e.g., Chick-Fil-A, certain political groups).

 

[erg923]

Sexual sin is mentioned heavily in the Bible due to the harm to self, spirit, marriage, wellbeing, others, etc.

Topic of thread is about empirically-based psychological treatments, son.

 

[Sanman]

What's the ICD 10 code for someone blending fabrics?

I'm going with:

y93.d1 or y93.d2, Z65.8, and a possible r46.1

 

[DownJonesIndustrial]

Topic of thread is about empirically-based psychological treatments, son.

Thanks, pops.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

signals you are not a ****ty person.

Looks like I got a warning and had my other post deleted. Jeez, I must have pooped on the wrong person. I'll make sure to not use bad words again. I apologize to whomever I offended.

Since we are talking about religion, I am surprised no one brought up ****timwood,: the wood of the ****tah, used to make the ark of the Hebrew tabernacle. Or ****tim: Old Testament the site to the east of the Jordan and northeast of the Dead Sea where the Israelites encamped before crossing the Jordan (Numbers 25:1–9). If these words get censored, I will assume its an antisemitic thing.

But just b/c the bible talks about something, doesn't mean it germane to our conversations, like ****tah or ****timwood.

Conversion therapy is a real mi****. I don't want to pussyfoot around it. One would have to be a real cock to support it. To practice a treatment that is likely harmful is a real dick move (or **** move, not to be so penis-centric). I don't want to be a twattler but I wouldn't even make my dogs (a little puppy and a bitch) suffer that way. Conversion therapy ******s the entire mental health movement and causes more suffering.

To practice conversion therapy is even more unreasonable than word filters on an internet forum. porn

 

[deleted106747]

As someone who is not straight, and who has to try to figure out whether I will be accepted by the people around me, I appreciate any sort of signal that I can be myself with a person. I'm perfectly happy with the term friendly!

 

[MCParent]

As someone who is not straight, and who has to try to figure out whether I will be accepted by the people around me, I appreciate any sort of signal that I can be myself with a person. I'm perfectly happy with the term friendly!

Having an affirming attitude even if they fumble around on words > using the right words and being a bigot

 

[Shiori]

And when you're super lucky, you find a therapist who can see and name your struggle without you having to break down all the details. I don't always need that in therapy, but sometimes it's healing just to be immediately understood in ways you usually have to explain to people.

 

[cara susanna]

In the VA they give us a "safe zone" magnet that we can put on our office doorframe, which is supposed to be a signal to the patient.

 

[PsychPhDone]

I guess if someone said they were a Christian (or Jewish or Muslim) feminist I'd have a similar problem. Why associate yourself with a religious group that is, by it's core nature, misogynistic?

Again, lots of ignorance on my part when it comes to religion.

Uhhhh because I *am* Jewish? Never in my life have I been accused of non-feminist, non-lgbt-affirming beliefs or actions because of this. Are you sure you're from NYC?

There is a tremendous amount of diversity of beliefs across those who associate with a religious group. Even cultural groups. Hell, I'd never want people to associate me with some of the beliefs of half the country when I identify as "American". That's why sometimes you have to signal your beliefs.

 

[PsychPhDone]

And uhh sorry for the possible overreact but it's not been particularly comfortable to be Jewish recently.

In other news, conversion therapy bad. Flabbergasted that anyone else thinks it's ok in 2021? I guess I shouldn't be surprised This has been eye opening.

 

[mdwpsyd]

Our state psych association worked with legislators, Equality Utah, and many other groups—including the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (Mormon)—to change Utah regulations such that no licensed health professional may provide conversion therapy.

Although I should mention that Mormon Bishops (men only; lay clergy) are not licensed health professionals so they can continue to provide conversion advice, as can clergy from other religions.

As an aside, unlike most states, in Utah clergy are not covered by mandated reporting laws for child abuse/neglect if they learn of the crime via a perpetrator's confession. Utah Code § 62A-4a-403

 

[WisNeuro]

Just as a point of reference, the states with conversion therapy bans generally apply to conversion therapy for minors. In most, if not all, conversion therapy is still fully allowable with adults with capacity.

 

[mdwpsyd]

Just as a point of reference, the states with conversion therapy bans generally apply to conversion therapy for minors. In most, if not all, conversion therapy is still fully allowable with adults with capacity.

Excellent and important point.

 

[cara susanna]

Our state psych association worked with legislators, Equality Utah, and many other groups—including the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (Mormon)—to change Utah regulations such that no licensed health professional may provide conversion therapy.

Although I should mention that Mormon Bishops (men only; lay clergy) are not licensed health professionals so they can continue to provide conversion advice, as can clergy from other religions.

As an aside, unlike most states, in Utah clergy are not covered by mandated reporting laws for child abuse/neglect if they learn of the crime via a perpetrator's confession. Utah Code § 62A-4a-403

Jeez, I feel like if Utah can agree to this any state should be able to.

 

[WisNeuro]

Jeez, I feel like if Utah can agree to this any state should be able to.

From what I recall, they didn't really. It was more of an executive governors order to pressure the licensing boards to change their practice rules. The legislature shot down a bill that was previously brought up.