When the truth isn't enough

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Adam Smasher

APMA Seal of Approval
15+ Year Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
1,779
Reaction score
3,686
Points
4,756
Location
American Samoa
  1. Podiatrist
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
I hate writing. There is nothing more agonizing for me than the look of a blank computer screen. If I enjoyed writing, I wouldn't have chosen a career in science. In fact, the only reason you are reading this right now is so I can vent some of my searing hatred of this application process, secondaries in particular.

I also hate lying. That doesn't make me a saint, far from it in fact. If you ask me if you look fat, I will not only tell you that you do, but in no uncertain terms I will warn you that unless you change your lifestyle, you will die blind and with your legs amputated due to your heart disease and comorbid diabetes. I simply think people have a right to know the truth.

In one of life's quirks, medical schools have combined three things that I hate (the third being beureaucratic inefficiency; can you imagine a major corporation taking 9 months to figure out if they want a job applicant or not?) into the torment that is secondary applications. As I fill these out, questions pop into my mind.

"How come it takes weeks to process my application but virtually no time to process the fee?"

"Why do you need to know that I've taken the requisite courses if you have my transcripts?"

"Is the quality of my writing that much of an indicator of how good a doctor I will be?"

Then I look at some of these essays, and I have to blend what I really think with what they want to hear into a delcious bullcrap smoothie. Here are three questions that I particularly loathe:

Why do you want to come to our school?
There isn't a profound reason for why I apply to any particular school. Basically, I applied to every school in my state, and every school in two big U.S. cities. My most important critieria are 1) will I be a competitive applicant? and 2) will my fiancee be able to find work in the area without taking too much of a paycut. From what I've been reading on here, my criteria aren't much different from other pre-meds.

In other words, I don't care if you emphasize evidence-based or humanistic medicine, I don't care if you're oriented more towards research or the community, and I don't care if your educational philosophy favors lectures over small-group discussion. Like many other applicants, my main concern is getting in. But no. I have to pretend like I care about this or else it looks like I'm not serious.

What really irritates me is that admissions have to know that we don't care. They're not stupid. Well, not that stupid. My theory is that it doesn't matter what you write, so long as you look like you've researched the school's main selling points. That way, you do the school's work for them. Say you're asked this by a school that's #4 or #5 on your list. Maybe by researching their offerings, you gain a more favorable perspective, and the school jumps up to #1 or #2.

What is your greatest weakness?
Now, I know the people in admissions weren't smart enough to make it as real doctors, but this question is idiotic. No one is going to give a straight answer. Really, is anyone going to say, "Well, I have fantasies about molesting little boys," or "I give poisoned cookies to the homeless."

I have come up with two possible strategies for this one, and neither one is very good, I admit. One possibility is to take your greatest strength and put a negative spin on it. "I work too hard. Sometimes I set goals for myself that are so high that I burn myself out trying to achieve them." I tried building an essay around that and couldn't finish because the B.S. fumes were nauseating me too much.

Another strategy I've come up with is to pick something innocuous, but nontrivial, and devote half of the essay to saying why it's no big deal in the first place. This doesn't really answer the question, though, does it?

What do you contribute to academic diversity?
Ooh boy. I don't want to get overtly political, but I have worked at a university for the past four years, and I've seen what a sacred cow "diversity" is in academia. Suffice to say, I don't care about diversity so much that it would color my perception of a university. Furthermore, I suspect admissions doesn't care either, so long as they fill their quotas and can wallpaper their website with photos of people of every color of the rainbow in an effort to portray their institution as an isolated utopia in an unjust and bigoted world.

So, what is a white heterosexual Christian male supposed to do? Well, I am a nontraditional student, and even though my "off" years were spent in a Ph.D. program I didn't finish, I'll be talking them up like the school will lose its accreditation if they don't accept me.

What else can you do? The same thing you do if you accidentally drop the N-bomb at a Manhattan cocktail party: offer sacrifice to the sacred cow. In my case, I happen to have a ton of experience working with minorities, er, ethnically and culturally diverse people of a variety of backgrounds and worldviews. It just so happens that the city I live in is 20% white, so this was not hard for me to do, looking for entry-level summer jobs. Of course, I'll give plenty of platitudes abut understanding...blah blah...tolerance...yada yada...valuable interactions...yackity yack...cultural horizons...and so on.

Anyway, I'm not trying to start a debate about the merits of diversity. I'm only saying that the question puts me and a lot of applicants in a tough spot by forcing us to act like we care about issues that are pretty low among our priorities. The amount of diversity I encounter is not going to impact the quality of medicine I practice, at least, not as much as, say, gross anatomy lab.

Lastly, if you know which school asked all three of my least favorite questions on its secondary, you get a gold star!
 
Way too long to read...
 
Heh, for someone who hates writing, you do an awfully good job of it.
 
I'm entertained...I read it all. Just a suggestion about the weakness essays, don't put a negative spin on something positive; you should actually be able to come up with a weakness, but then emphasize how you are improving that weakness.
 
If you start your own blog, let me know so i can subscribe to it. I think you missed your calling.

Be prepared for much more BS that is to come.
 
I agree with the other guys. Perhaps tragically for you, that really was a pretty well-written and entertaining post. You may hate writing, but at least it seems like you're not bad at it.

As for the application process, I really don't have much to say or offer. It does seem ridiculous in many respects, but at least it is ridiculous for everyone and not just some.
 
Lastly, if you know which school asked all three of my least favorite questions on its secondary, you get a gold star!

Jeopardy format: "What is Rosalind Franklin?"

I've got to be honest with you, writing isn't that hard. You just need to know what you want to say. But the solution to writer's block (or general inability to articulate) will not be helped by "lying."
 
^^^^
Ding!

Thanks for the compliments, guys. I write my best when I'm angry.
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
You don't hate writing. You just hate writing application essays. News flash: everyone does.
 
heh, nice. very amusing. and quite articulate.
 
Haha nice post dude I agree with pretty much everything you said. Except please do not talk about how you work too hard or are a perfectionist on a weakness essay.

The worst essay in my opinion is the moral/ethical dilemma one. Seriously I have encountered none. People tell me think of a small one and elaborate on it but you know what, I haven't even encountered a small one. The only one I can think of is when me and my friends were drinking and one of them wanted to piss in a random gas tank. Sure I thought about the moral implications, but ended up just laughing while he did it. Not something I want to talk about in a med school essay. So all in all, my moral/ethical dilemma is going to be a bunch of complete BS...its either that or I leave the damn thing blank.
 
You think that secondary was bad, go read Duke's secondary. I swear completing the secondary itself is the toughest selection criteria to overcome 😡
 
Interesting read. Most people were thinking it, and you finally said it.

What is your greatest weakness?
Now, I know the people in admissions weren't smart enough to make it as real doctors,

The admissions committee at every school is made up of very real doctors.
 
What a read! There is much truth to be found in your well-written piece. You should definitely start a blog to share your thoughts about the process with us.

Unfortunately, that is just the way things are. When you have far more qualified applicants than you do spots in medical school classes, the game shifts away from your true intentions and ability to practice medicine and focuses more on jumping through the correct combination of fiery hoops (with these secondary essays being some of said hoops). The only saving grace is that, as was mentioned earlier, it is an unplesant process that affects all applicants equally.

(At least, I'd like to believe that it does...)
 
While I agree with the overall tone, you present your case about "why school X" too bluntly. Did you look at the schools before applying? You had to at least look at a few and saw something you liked about it.
 
Great post, OP, you're actually quite an entertaining writer.

I pretty much had the exact same thoughts when making up answers to these questions. I also hate the BSing-mixed-with-truth involved. Although the top of my list for "most hated question" was probably "why medicine?"

Honestly, its very hard to think of some extremely unique (and PC acceptable, of course) answer to this. And we all have reasons we are not really "allowed" to talk about. If I were being honest when I answered this, my answer would simply be that I think its a good job... I'm interested in science, I want something that pays well, I want good job security, I want to be able to choose where I live, I like people. I have no other "profound" reasons. I have had no life-changing experiences that inspired me to want to be a doctor. I wouldn't have died if I didn't get in.

I also really hated the "why this school" question, especially for schools that were bottom of my list. I really DIDN'T want to go to their school, I just wanted to go SOMEWHERE (especially in canada, where there are way fewer options)
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
Just a thought, maybe you should have someone piss you off before sitting down to write your next secondary. You're rant was articulate and well written.

Or, consider just copying and pasting your post into one of those "what else would you like to tell us about yourself" prompts.
 
Hoops to jump through, that's all it is.
 
You're right.
 
lol rosalind franklin's secondary has all 3 questions....

the diversity question is death. makes me wanna toss my laptop off of my balcony window every time i see it. Getting into med school and becoming a good doctor seems to be 2 distinct and unrelated things nowadays.

anyways, great post. describes my sentiments exactly.
 
This poster must be Panda Bear's equally disgruntled and malevolent twin.

I dub thee "Teddy Bear".

Change your screen name accordingly. 😍
 
Do yourself a favor and make sure your SDN screen name remains anonymous from who you really are. 😉

Otherwise, I am sure adcoms will tear you apart.
 
I approve this topic!!👍👍👍
 
Do yourself a favor and make sure your SDN screen name remains anonymous from who you really are. 😉

Otherwise, I am sure adcoms will tear you apart.

My ultimate goal is becoming a head adcom so I can tell my applicants "anyone who wears a suit to the interview gets rejected" and "every year, we vote on the person wearing the craziest outfit and accept that person."
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
I am also gonna chime in with Rosalind Franklin..LOLtastic 2ndary application.

As for your post, I also enjoyed the read. 👍👍
 
My ultimate goal is becoming a head adcom so I can tell my applicants "anyone who wears a suit to the interview gets rejected" and "every year, we vote on the person wearing the craziest outfit and accept that person."

I kind of want to wait until you get to that position. Or teach at the same school as you and also be on the adcom.
 
QQ and+pity+. I think these are all perfectly valid questions. Secondaries are obviously a pain and no one enjoys writing them, but it really shouldn't be that hard to come up with three honest answers for these questions.

Why do you want to go to School X is something you'll need to know anyway if you get invited to an interview. Why would you dish out all that money and take the time to apply to schools you claim not to care about? You should be applying to schools you know something about, not just names you've drawn off USNews or the MSAR or wherever you get your inspired ideas.

In your second point, it's funny that you'd dismiss adcoms as people not smart enough to make it as "real doctors" when you're a med-student-wannabe. People in charge of picking the future crop of physicians don't get that place as a consolation prize. Being able to talk about a weakness demonstrates humility (maybe lack of that could be your weakness?), self-awareness and knowledge, your self-improvement strategy if you have one, etc. It's not even as if this question is only found in med school interviews, it's pretty much the one question you're most likely to be asked in any interview for any professional field.

In the last point, I agree with the overuse of the term "diversity" but only because it confuses people into thinking that they need to be an URM or the like. This is not what academic diversity means, nor is that strictly what they are asking you to say! They want you to describe anything that makes you someone less of a stereotypical premed (I typically talked about my experience in tropical biology / field work).

I realize that you're ranting and blowing off steam, and I hope the tone of your post comes mainly from that. If not, scary.
 
Last edited:
Are you so cocky that you cannot find one weakness in yourself? Maybe cockiness itself could be your weakness...
 
I tried building an essay around that and couldn't finish because the B.S. fumes were nauseating me too much.

Seriously, I would probably get cancer from the BS fumes from this application process if they were carcinogenic. The worst kind of writing is writing the "bullcrap smoothie"! 👎
 
I kind of want to wait until you get to that position. Or teach at the same school as you and also be on the adcom.

Anyone who likes Fallout would totally get a spot on my adcom. Fallout 2 is my favorite video game! 👍

(If your pic indeed refers to that classic RPG and not something else)
 
This poster must be Panda Bear's equally disgruntled and malevolent twin.

I dub thee "Teddy Bear".

Change your screen name accordingly. 😍

Heh, there is a certain Panda Bearesque cynicism 😉
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
Agreed, the essays and interviews are simply ways for us to tell them what they want to hear. It's no indication of how good or bad a doctor you will be. We all write roughly the same crap. Totally pointless.
 
Last edited:
Great post, OP, you're actually quite an entertaining writer.

I pretty much had the exact same thoughts when making up answers to these questions. I also hate the BSing-mixed-with-truth involved. Although the top of my list for "most hated question" was probably "why medicine?"

Honestly, its very hard to think of some extremely unique (and PC acceptable, of course) answer to this. And we all have reasons we are not really "allowed" to talk about. If I were being honest when I answered this, my answer would simply be that I think its a good job... I'm interested in science, I want something that pays well, I want good job security, I want to be able to choose where I live, I like people. I have no other "profound" reasons. I have had no life-changing experiences that inspired me to want to be a doctor. I wouldn't have died if I didn't get in.

I also really hated the "why this school" question, especially for schools that were bottom of my list. I really DIDN'T want to go to their school, I just wanted to go SOMEWHERE (especially in canada, where there are way fewer options)

I basically have the same reasons. I have no idea why they aren't good enough. Once again, gotta turn up the BS factor to get a better reason.
 
Pssh. I said it first. Comment stealer. 🙄😀 (obviously j/k)

Heh. True, true. I kind of like the idea of a Teddy Bear myself, though, I must say. The irony of the cuteness juxtaposed with total and utter cynicism is savory 😉
 
OP, it seems like you are bad at writing when you are lying, but you write the truth very well. I had the worst time writing my personal statement for this reason. I didn't want to write a bunch of crap. I avoided it and procrastinated for a looong time because I didn't want to go into interviews trying to remember the web of lies I created, and then try to adhere to my story. I am useless if I'm not telling the truth. It's frustrating that sometimes my real opinion is on a list of taboos. I think there are true and good answers to all of these questions, but it takes lots of time and introspection to come up with them.
 
Wow, I appreciate the feedback, even the critical ones.

Here's some individual responses:

Sully667: This isn't the only thing I got that's too long for ya! 😱

Sookie & Greonis: I can't do a blog. I have a wandering mind and it's hard for me to focus on a single topic. I admit, it would be fun to do something and if I do it well have legions of followers, but I'm not sure I have the discipline to write daily postings, let alone about a single theme like the other great medblogs out there. Maybe I could write my thoughts about the general baloney that is involved in academia? Time will tell.

Diksha: Of course everyone hates them. But it looks like only one person (in recent memory anyway) thought about articulating his hatred at length.😎

fastdude400 & TigerSoup: In a literal sense, of course they're real doctors. But come on, who spends their time going to med school only to advance to an administrative position where they can haze the next generation of pre-meds. I want to go to a medical school, not a fraternity! I'll happily take abuse from an attending physician, since what they are doing is ultimately helpful, but not some paper-pusher.

[whiny voice]"But Adam, physicians are so important that we need to have elaborate dog-and-pony shows to decide who's the best!"

OK fine, then that would mean that the jobs of the individuals who select 100 students for the entering class are 100 times more important and we need a dog-and-pony show 100 times more elaborate to decide who gets to be on the admissions committee. Otherwise, we might let some maniac get by who admits all sorts of undesirables!

LucidSplash, Krispy Kreme, and others: yes, I did read Panda Bear a lot.

disorder: Maybe I'll unmask myself after I'm admitted/rejected and give up.

UVAbme2009: I swear upon the dark gods that spawned me, I did next to no research on any school I sent my AMCAS app to. If I did, I would have known that Rosalind Franklin isn't really in Chicago. Oops. 🙄

Everyone else: Thanks for the compliments. In my view, good writing takes more than entertainment value. I go back to my high school composition class: prewrite, write, and rewrite. You pick a singular them and build supports around it. My OP might have been fine and dandy for a message board, but it won't pass muster in your english class. Sure I could start a blog and rant like this every day, and it might have entertainment value, but I'd prefer to craft something good, or do nothing at all. If I made a habit of doing second rate work, I wouldn't have chosen a career as a physician.😉
 
Last edited:
PB version 2.0 in the making? Maybe.

whoa whoa whoa now. :caution: We can't just start throwing around PB 2.0's now. PB is extremely hard to apprentice and has such a ... unique presence, I think it is unfair to him to pick his successor before he has left. He may in fact be irreplaceable. I don't think PB will leave, ever.

That being said, interesting post OP.
 
Heh. True, true. I kind of like the idea of a Teddy Bear myself, though, I must say. The irony of the cuteness juxtaposed with total and utter cynicism is savory 😉

Mmmmmmmmmmm....savory. 😍

.

UVAbme2009: I swear upon the dark gods that spawned me, I did next to no research on any school I sent my AMCAS app to. If I did, I would have known that Rosalind Franklin isn't really in Chicago. Oops. 🙄

:laugh:

So will you change your member title to Teddy Bear? 😍

Pssh. I said it first. Comment stealer. 🙄😀 (obviously j/k)

😱 Sorry! I just read back over your comment and realized that PB = Panda Bear. For some reason, I thought peanut butter...

I need some sleep. 😳
 
I normally abhor whiny premed rants and make an effort to troll them, but this one did pretty ok in my book.
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
Top Bottom