When to take Sub-I's vs away rotations?

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SoulinNeed

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So, I want to do Psych and I want to do it in Chicago, but I'm not currently in Chicago for med school, and I want to do one or two away rotations at schools in Chicago to make up for my very low Step 1 score (209), but I'm not sure what to do with my med school scheduling. I come from a top school, but I would still like to do an away rotation to help me. My med school requires that I do one core Sub-I (and Psych doesn't count) and an ICU experience (both 4 weeks each), but I don't have any free time until August of 2016. If I forgo doing a Sub-I until later, then I can't include it in my residency application transcript. What do you guys recommend doing for scheduling?

Do an away internship in August and another September, and save the rest for later (and not have them included in my transcript?). Or do a Sub-I in medicine and an away in September, and another in October (or is that too late for consideration for interviews?). What do you guys think? Any help would be appreciated.
 
I think the away rotations will help you more than having a grade in your Sub-I. Everybody gets high grades in Sub-I's anyway.
 
From personal experience, August is usually the best time to do aways: plenty of time to ask for letters of recs and submit for ERAS, not too much time that everyone has forgotten about you.
 
FlowRate said:
Did you get a good grade in third-year medicine?
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I've heard this asked before somewhere else but no one elaborated on it. Is the 3rd year internal medicine grade really important to psych programs? I guess it would make sense considering most programs have 2-3 months of internal med for their PGY-1s, but what's the deal with the 3rd year grade for that rotation?
 
whodunit030 said:
I've heard this asked before somewhere else but no one elaborated on it. Is the 3rd year internal medicine grade really important to psych programs? I guess it would make sense considering most programs have 2-3 months of internal med for their PGY-1s, but what's the deal with the 3rd year grade for that rotation?
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All programs value all grades to some degree or another. A few programs want people who have rather strong medicine (places strong in CL or where the psych residents work as interns at rigorous medicine programs.) I was asking because if OP had a good 3rd year grade, then doing a medicine Sub-I before ERAS submission is not necessary. If the grade was poor, it might have made sense to do the sub-I early.
 
If you do well in third year, don't have any red flags, get good letters, and put together a halfway decent application I don't think you'll have much trouble interviewing at a Chicago program. Northwestern and the U of C are probably the most competitive programs and, frankly, even they aren't that competitive compared to many other specialties. I think it'd be more advantageous to do an away or two at a program you're very interested in over a sub-I as you'll get some face time with the program and would almost certainly get a courtesy interview if nothing else.
 
FlowRate said:
All programs value all grades to some degree or another. A few programs want people who have rather strong medicine (places strong in CL or where the psych residents work as interns at rigorous medicine programs.) I was asking because if OP had a good 3rd year grade, then doing a medicine Sub-I before ERAS submission is not necessary. If the grade was poor, it might have made sense to do the sub-I early.
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I haven't received it yet, as I have just finished it. My eval's were a bit mixed. Some were shining, and two were not with the rest being pretty nondescriptive. No red flags, though.
 
NickNaylor said:
If you do well in third year, don't have any red flags, get good letters, and put together a halfway decent application I don't think you'll have much trouble interviewing at a Chicago program. Northwestern and the U of C are probably the most competitive programs and, frankly, even they aren't that competitive compared to many other specialties. I think it'd be more advantageous to do an away or two at a program you're very interested in over a sub-I as you'll get some face time with the program and would almost certainly get a courtesy interview if nothing else.
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Everybody at my school always brings up U of C and NU simply because of the "prestige" associated, but I would be ecstatic with UIC, Rush, or Loyola, honestly, as I just want Psych in Chicago.
 
SoulinNeed said:
Everybody at my school always brings up U of C and NU simply because of the "prestige" associated, but I would be ecstatic with UIC, Rush, or Loyola, honestly, as I just want Psych in Chicago.
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Well that's pretty much my point. You would have a not insignificant chance at even the most "prestigious" programs. Thus, I think wanting to stay in Chicago isn't a reasonable goal. It may not be at Northwestern or at the U of C, but I imagine you would match one of the programs since there are so many.
 
NickNaylor said:
Well that's pretty much my point. You would have a not insignificant chance at even the most "prestigious" programs. Thus, I think wanting to stay in Chicago isn't a reasonable goal. It may not be at Northwestern or at the U of C, but I imagine you would match one of the programs since there are so many.
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Yeah, my only concern is maximizing my chances of doing so as my med school isn't in IL.
 
SoulinNeed said:
Yeah, my only concern is maximizing my chances of doing so as my med school isn't in IL.
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I should add that my previous post should've said that getting in Chicago IS a reasonable goal, not isn't. That was a bad typo.

Your concern above is why you do an away if you're that worried about it.
 
NickNaylor said:
I should add that my previous post should've said that getting in Chicago IS a reasonable goal, not isn't. That was a bad typo.

Your concern above is why you do an away if you're that worried about it.
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Yeah, plus my low Step 1 score. It's all about maximizing.
 
Well, I had a talk with one of the deans here. He actually recommended that I do a Psych sub-I in August, a Med sub-I in September, and an away rotation in October. What do you guys think? He doesn't believe that I need to do two. He thinks one will be enough to show Chicago schools that I'm interested in the city. He recommends writing personalized statements for the other Chicago schools. What do you guys think?
 
I agree with your dean 100%. Doing one subI in Chicago is enough to show interest in the city. It shows you obviously planned to do that subI in that city.
 
since when was 209 a very low step 1 score? (i would consider below 200 very low). If you truly go to a top school (ie. harvard, ucsf, hopkins, penn, columbia, duke, uw, umich, stanford then no one will care. going to a top medical school atones for many sins. also don't do an away rotation if you aren't clinically strong and personable, or are insecure. aways can hurt you a lot more than they can help. for many they are the kiss of death. Having a letter of recommendation from a faculty person at the place you are most interested can help (as long as that person is liked, sometimes it can also kill your application if its the wrong person) a lot and would argue for doing an away in August at the latest. But like I said assuming you have no red flags (209 is not even a yellow flag), and you really go to a top school no one will care. there aren't any top programs in chicago, and it's not on the coasts so its not a terribly competitive locale and there are several programs.
 
Well, I got my medicine clerkship grade, and I'm pretty disappointed. It's a pass. Honestly, it seems like one or two evaluations screwed me up, which is really unfortunate. I also suspect that a few of my evals didn't make it in time, as I just received them a few days ago (and they were glowing), but the grades just came out today. I don't want to say how our grades are done, but eval comments count for a lot. So, it's disheartening that something like this could happen, especially because I honestly believe that that bad eval was very unfair. Oh well, though, what can you do. I hope this doesn't hurt my chances of matching into a Psych program in Chicago too much. What do you guys think?
 
splik said:
since when was 209 a very low step 1 score? (i would consider below 200 very low). If you truly go to a top school (ie. harvard, ucsf, hopkins, penn, columbia, duke, uw, umich, stanford then no one will care. going to a top medical school atones for many sins. also don't do an away rotation if you aren't clinically strong and personable, or are insecure. aways can hurt you a lot more than they can help. for many they are the kiss of death. Having a letter of recommendation from a faculty person at the place you are most interested can help (as long as that person is liked, sometimes it can also kill your application if its the wrong person) a lot and would argue for doing an away in August at the latest. But like I said assuming you have no red flags (209 is not even a yellow flag), and you really go to a top school no one will care. there aren't any top programs in chicago, and it's not on the coasts so its not a terribly competitive locale and there are several programs.
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Well, I'm at one of the schools you listed. I actually was told by someone today something very similar to what you're saying. That person told me that the Chicago programs aren't that highly looked upon, and aren't TOO competitive. However, that person doesn't know my score, so I don't think it's much help, lol. I was also under the impressure that Loyola Stritch had a cutoff off 210, and thus, I was screwed for them. Is this not true?
 
SoulinNeed said:
Well, I'm at one of the schools you listed. I actually was told by someone today something very similar to what you're saying. That person told me that the Chicago programs aren't that highly looked upon, and aren't TOO competitive. However, that person doesn't know my score, so I don't think it's much help, lol. I was also under the impressure that Loyola Stritch had a cutoff off 210, and thus, I was screwed for them. Is this not true?
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Stritch's last class was 2 people from Chicago schools, 2 DOs and 2 FMGs. I'd be willing to bet money that if you write a personal statement about why you want to go there and, if no invite by 10/15 you write the PD a sincere, polite and simple email theyd treat you like a king. Step 1 cutoffs are for FMGs, DOs, no name schools... When people see their website, they see your med school, not your step 1. The "cutoff" probably exists because they don't even dream that a top med school applicant would consider them...
 
downwithDTB said:
Stritch's last class was 2 people from Chicago schools, 2 DOs and 2 FMGs. I'd be willing to bet money that if you write a personal statement about why you want to go there and, if no invite by 10/15 you write the PD a sincere, polite and simple email theyd treat you like a king. Step 1 cutoffs are for FMGs, DOs, no name schools... When people see their website, they see your med school, not your step 1. The "cutoff" probably exists because they don't even dream that a top med school applicant would consider them...
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Seems too good to be true, but it would be wonderful news for me if this were the case.
 
downwithDTB said:
http://www.stritch.luc.edu/depts/psych/residency_and_education/current_residents.htm

Most programs list their residents and their schools on their website. Also, look at your schools match history in psych for the last 2-3 years. Find the "least prestigious" programs that people match to. Then check out where their peers went to school and see what the people in those programs look like.
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Without exception, based on the past 2-3 years, all top East Coast programs.
 
splik said:
why would it to be too good to be true to know that you could match at some bottom of the barrel program?!
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I honestly just don't know much about how these things work. I'm also worried that the program won't take my application seriously because they think I won't even go there.
 
Sign up for CS in March to get a spot in June/August. Take CK after your Medicine subi but early like July. My 2 cents.
 
My dean actually recommended that I take it sometime in November. What do you guys think?
 
SoulinNeed said:
My dean actually recommended that I take it sometime in November. What do you guys think?
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Just a second year student here, so obviously not an authority on the issue - but have you seen the 2015 interview thread? It seems like more and more programs prefer seeing Step 2 scores at the time of application. Also, as the conventional wisdom goes, low Step 1 scores can be somewhat offset by solid Step 2 scores, so if you think you can do well on Step 2 it's a good idea to have the score before your application submission. But again, what do I know, I'm just relaying what I've read here.

Not to highjack the thread, but does anyone know if taking Step 2 after all of your core rotations but before your medicine sub-I is disadvantageous in any way?
 
Never had a medicine sub-I. Did much better on Step 2 than Step 1. So n=1, but how well you score on it is much more about you and your study habits. Your medicine sub-I is not going to be a Step 2 review course.

If I had to do it all again, I would have done Step 2 CS during spring break of third year just to get it done, and done Step 2 CK a couple weeks after finishing clinical rotations.
 
SoulinNeed said:
My dean actually recommended that I take it sometime in November. What do you guys think?
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Depends on your Step 1 score--but if it's marginal at all, November is way too late. It's all about information--programs have precious little to go on in evaluating you. If you're applying with only Step 1, remember that the pool is full of smart, dedicated folks with all THREE steps completed on the first attempt. What do you have in your app that will make us want to interview YOU ahead of them?

Someone needs to talk to these deans...it seems that they're the ones passing on this "Apply everywhere, even where you don't want to go" crap, and putting their students at risk with the advice to wait so long with Step 2.
 
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clausewitz2 said:
Never had a medicine sub-I. Did much better on Step 2 than Step 1. So n=1, but how well you score on it is much more about you and your study habits. Your medicine sub-I is not going to be a Step 2 review course.

If I had to do it all again, I would have done Step 2 CS during spring break of third year just to get it done, and done Step 2 CK a couple weeks after finishing clinical rotations.
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Thanks for a very helpful response!
 
OldPsychDoc said:
Depends on your Step 1 score--but if it's marginal at all, November is way too late. It's all about information--programs have precious little to go on in evaluating you. If you're applying with only Step 1, remember that the pool is full of smart, dedicated folks with all THREE steps completed on the first attempt. What do you have in your app that make us want to interview YOU ahead of them?

Someone needs to talk to these deans...it seems that they're the ones passing on this "Apply everywhere, even where you don't want to go" crap, and putting their students at risk with the advice to wait so long with Step 2.
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Is there any way to separate out those who are innate standardized test takers vs those who are not with the process?
 
Reasons to wait on step 2... You're AOA and had a really high step 1: who cares when you take it. Youre an MD PhD with above average step 1, publication and good clinical evals but you struggled with shelves leading to lots of HP.

Even then...
 
downwithDTB said:
Reasons to wait on step 2... You're AOA and had a really high step 1: who cares when you take it. Youre an MD PhD with above average step 1, publication and good clinical evals but you struggled with shelves leading to lots of HP.

Even then...
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Actually only the first reasons applies. Md PhDs who don't have high step 1 scores should have step 2 in for applying. In general it would be advisable to step 2 in June or July and have the score in for when you apply. Although no good programs will filter you out for not having step 2, most applicants now have done it so you could theoretically disadvantage yourself.
 
SoulinNeed said:
Everybody at my school always brings up U of C and NU simply because of the "prestige" associated, but I would be ecstatic with UIC, Rush, or Loyola, honestly, as I just want Psych in Chicago.
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On what planet is u of c prestigious for psych? The university sure and the med school but this does not rub off of their psych dept which is pretty weak for a major medical school and the residency is pretty weak too. UIC has a much better psych dept though not without its flaws.

You must be pretty desperate to be in Chicago if you would sacrifice your training and go to rush or Loyola. To be fair I don't know much about Loyola but I can't imagine it's any good and Rush is definitely pretty awful from what I have heard. I know someone who did residency there and was completely ill equipped following residency.
 
splik said:
On what planet is u of c prestigious for psych? The university sure and the med school but this does not rub off of their psych dept which is pretty weak for a major medical school and the residency is pretty weak too. UIC has a much better psych dept though not without its flaws.

You must be pretty desperate to be in Chicago if you would sacrifice your training and go to rush or Loyola. To be fair I don't know much about Loyola but I can't imagine it's any good and Rush is definitely pretty awful from what I have heard. I know someone who did residency there and was completely ill equipped following residency.
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I am pretty desperate to be in Chicago. From asking people, it seems like none of the Chicago programs are THAT great for Psych, but due to family obligations, I need to be in the city.

EDIT: And by prestige, they essentially just mean name brand.
 
SoulinNeed said:
I am pretty desperate to be in Chicago. From asking people, it seems like none of the Chicago programs are THAT great for Psych, but due to family obligations, I need to be in the city.

EDIT: And by prestige, they essentially just mean name brand.
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I have heard good things about northwestern particularly if you are interested in psychodynamic psychotherapy and they really seem to take good care of their residents. They might be coddled in fact. Their PD seems very invested in the wellbeing of her residents. Really I think you should should be in good shape if you are likeable and have strong letters of recommendation.
 
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