Where are we going with this?

[El Salvaje]

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So ever since I took an interest in dentistry I've been hearing both good and bad things about where the profession is headed some of which by their very nature should be in logical conflict (meaning that dentistry can't be doomed and the golden ticket at the same time). I think we've all heard fo the longest time that for every x amount of dentists graduating 3x or 4x or whatever multiple of older dentists will retire thus creating a huge patient base and decresed competition for virtually everyone in the field. So is there any truth to this? How will the inclusion of new dental schools affect this? How will the fact that some states are now allowing mid level providers to perform fillings and other routine dental care that normally only the Dr. could perform? How has the rising cost of education since the days when most dentists (the baby boomers) were in school affected the bottom line in dental incomes?

I'm not demanding the answers to these questions from anybody as though I'd expect them to have a crystal ball but just wanted to create an all encompassing dialogue of where we are going as a profession. Of course we all love our field like a captain loves his ship but if we dont stop every now and then to re-examine the path we've set on that ship could soon end up on the rocks. Informed opinions on the trials/triumphs awaiting dentistry and civil discussion is encouraged.

 

[beannaithe]

I'm in my first year of private practice so take everything I say with a grain of salt. I have NO idea what some schools are doing with trying to open up more schools and flood the market with new grads. Dentists are not retiring at the rate that many have projected. Truthfully, I do not believe that many older dentists can afford to retire to the lifestyle that they have grown accustomed to.

There is a huge unmet dental need, but sadly, it is due to patients' inability or unwillingness to pay...I have seen a lot of this. Patients present to the office for treatment planning and either don't return or ask us to complete a cheaper treatment (prophies vs. SRPs). Whether it's due to the economy or the messed up priorities, it's sad...

When I was applying for jobs, it was pretty ugly. My husband has a job in a suburban area of Philadelphia, so we had to stay in the area. I spent 4 months looking, sending out tons of resumes. I got several interviews and a few offers. Most were part time (1 -2 days) and many would not offer me a daily guarantee, which is scary as a new grad with a $2k/month loan payment (husband takes care of other expenses). Though I think this will only continue to get worse and wages (35% production/collections was standard about 4 years ago, I had offers from 27- 32% collections only).

Midlevel providers, such as EFDAs in PA that place restorations, are good. They allow dentists to speed up and place multiple restorations, which allows profitability from insurances...dental therapists who will open their own offices and increase competition scares me. It will only drive wages even further down...

I think the glut of new providers is coming, the markets will saturate, wages will go down, dentists will retire, they'll close a couple of schools and dentistry will have another "golden age" about 20 years from now. I heard this happened in the 80s...I guess the market is cyclical.

 

[Dgeorg6]

I would assume everyones cases will differ from where they live or want to practice..

for all those wanting to practice in California or Texas or big cities like that, they will probably have problems finding work..

for those wanting to live in idk.. Nebraska or Arkansas or rural areas around the country.. They have a good shot and getting a good job right out. But idk, that's just my thoughts on the whole ordeal

 

[longhornpride]

I'm in my first year of private practice so take everything I say with a grain of salt. I have NO idea what some schools are doing with trying to open up more schools and flood the market with new grads. Dentists are not retiring at the rate that many have projected. Truthfully, I do not believe that many older dentists can afford to retire to the lifestyle that they have grown accustomed to.

There is a huge unmet dental need, but sadly, it is due to patients' inability or unwillingness to pay...I have seen a lot of this. Patients present to the office for treatment planning and either don't return or ask us to complete a cheaper treatment (prophies vs. SRPs). Whether it's due to the economy or the messed up priorities, it's sad...

When I was applying for jobs, it was pretty ugly. My husband has a job in a suburban area of Philadelphia, so we had to stay in the area. I spent 4 months looking, sending out tons of resumes. I got several interviews and a few offers. Most were part time (1 -2 days) and many would not offer me a daily guarantee, which is scary as a new grad with a $2k/month loan payment (husband takes care of other expenses). Though I think this will only continue to get worse and wages (35% production/collections was standard about 4 years ago, I had offers from 27- 32% collections only).

Midlevel providers, such as EFDAs in PA that place restorations, are good. They allow dentists to speed up and place multiple restorations, which allows profitability from insurances...dental therapists who will open their own offices and increase competition scares me. It will only drive wages even further down...

I think the glut of new providers is coming, the markets will saturate, wages will go down, dentists will retire, they'll close a couple of schools and dentistry will have another "golden age" about 20 years from now. I heard this happened in the 80s...I guess the market is cyclical.

Very good post!

 

[Lesley]

"I'm in my first year of private practice so take everything I say with a grain of salt. I have NO idea what some schools are doing with trying to open up more schools and flood the market with new grads. Dentists are not retiring at the rate that many have projected. Truthfully, I do not believe that many older dentists can afford to retire to the lifestyle that they have grown accustomed to.

There is a huge unmet dental need, but sadly, it is due to patients' inability or unwillingness to pay...I have seen a lot of this. Patients present to the office for treatment planning and either don't return or ask us to complete a cheaper treatment (prophies vs. SRPs). Whether it's due to the economy or the messed up priorities, it's sad...

When I was applying for jobs, it was pretty ugly. My husband has a job in a suburban area of Philadelphia, so we had to stay in the area. I spent 4 months looking, sending out tons of resumes. I got several interviews and a few offers. Most were part time (1 -2 days) and many would not offer me a daily guarantee, which is scary as a new grad with a $2k/month loan payment (husband takes care of other expenses). Though I think this will only continue to get worse and wages (35% production/collections was standard about 4 years ago, I had offers from 27- 32% collections only).

Midlevel providers, such as EFDAs in PA that place restorations, are good. They allow dentists to speed up and place multiple restorations, which allows profitability from insurances...dental therapists who will open their own offices and increase competition scares me. It will only drive wages even further down...

I think the glut of new providers is coming, the markets will saturate, wages will go down, dentists will retire, they'll close a couple of schools and dentistry will have another "golden age" about 20 years from now. I heard this happened in the 80s...I guess the market is cyclical."
__________________

That was a great post. Other things to consider. How do the growing number of corporate dental offices impact the wages of dentists going forward? Dentists like the rest of the population are living longer. Living longer means saving and working more too. Dentists will have longer careers. It was thought that having women in the profession starting in the 80's would cause a decrease in the availability of patient hours. Has it? Factoring in the additional schools that are opening plus everything else you cited, the next golden age may be a bit away, hopefully not 20 years. I think the most limiting thing for patients regarding treatment is cost, and it not going to get easier for patients going forward.

 

[TheClutch]

I think the glut of new providers is coming, the markets will saturate, wages will go down, dentists will retire, they'll close a couple of schools and dentistry will have another "golden age" about 20 years from now. I heard this happened in the 80s...I guess the market is cyclical.

I don't get this. Dental schools will close down?? Who would want their school to shut down? this is non-sense. Someone please elaborate on this

 

[Vapor1122]

I don't get this. Dental schools will close down?? Who would want their school to shut down? this is non-sense. Someone please elaborate on this

If the applicants aren't there and they can't keep the place on its feet, they close up shop. It's happened a few times before.

 

[yappy]

Do you guys think that medicine may be a better career than dentistry in the future? In terms of income and demand for services only?

 

[Lesley]

"If the applicants aren't there and they can't keep the place on its feet, they close up shop. It's happened a few times before."

That is not why a few dental schools closed in the late 80's and early 90's. They closed because the schools figured their dental schools were not as cost effective as their other programs. Dentists are expensive to produce. Consider that a good thing. Attorneys are not and schools continue to pump them out. However, many dental schools are getting adept at finding cost effective ways to produce dentists. Higher tuition, more rotations away from the school, tighter employee expenditures, etc. There has never been a shortage of applicants to my knowledge, maybe less, but enough to fill the available seats. When there are less applicants the quality of the applicants goes down and the reverse is true when more students apply.

 

[BlueToothHunter]

Universities can, will and have closed dental schools at any time they want. It all matters whether the school is cost effective. In general, dental schools lose money in the eyes of university administration.

 

[UltimateHombre]

Do you guys think that medicine may be a better career than dentistry in the future? In terms of income and demand for services only?

In my opinion medicine already has its fair share of problems and issues they are working on. Healthcare reform, established midlevels, reduced insurance rates... leave it for the MDs.

Not to mention, if you really want to out earn a practice owning DDS you will need to look outside of general practitioners (FP, IM, Peds, Psy). All the ROAD specialties are super competitive and EM and Surgery will leave you working 60 hours a week.

DDS for the win in all scenarios.

 

[comatose]

I myself am about three and a half years out. I wish I had chosen a different profession. I am good at what I do, that's not the problem. It's finding good work, which is hard to find right now. And good work is hard to find in most jobs now; HOWEVER, with a large student loan, and being 30 without a retirement savings account because I have been paying on this large student loan, it is difficult to justify to myself that I have chosen the right career path FOR THIS ECONOMY. As a dentist, you have to pay for everything, including all taxes (since most employer dentists are going against IRS guidelines and hiring dentists as independent contractors, which is against the law btw), health insurance (which btw most self-employed health insurances suck), malpractice and disability insurances. More and more patients cannot afford treatment. Full time jobs are almost non-existent, you have to find two or three part-time jobs. There is much more competition everywhere you go, even in smaller towns. There is definitely a saturation in dentistry. I don't get the retirement/new dentist ratio argument, when dentists are complaining about saturation everywhere. If you are in college, be smart, a new America is emerging, one where the middle class is disappearing. Computer science/engineering is still good and will be in demand as long as Americans remain, at large, unintelligent.Okay I am done ranting. Choose another career.

 

[TheClutch]

I myself am about three and a half years out. I wish I had chosen a different profession. I am good at what I do, that's not the problem. It's finding good work, which is hard to find right now. And good work is hard to find in most jobs now; HOWEVER, with a large student loan, and being 30 without a retirement savings account because I have been paying on this large student loan, it is difficult to justify to myself that I have chosen the right career path FOR THIS ECONOMY. As a dentist, you have to pay for everything, including all taxes (since most employer dentists are going against IRS guidelines and hiring dentists as independent contractors, which is against the law btw), health insurance (which btw most self-employed health insurances suck), malpractice and disability insurances. More and more patients cannot afford treatment. Full time jobs are almost non-existent, you have to find two or three part-time jobs. There is much more competition everywhere you go, even in smaller towns. There is definitely a saturation in dentistry. I don't get the retirement/new dentist ratio argument, when dentists are complaining about saturation everywhere. If you are in college, be smart, a new America is emerging, one where the middle class is disappearing. Computer science/engineering is still good and will be in demand as long as Americans remain, at large, unintelligent.Okay I am done ranting. Choose another career.

thanks for sharing that with us. Do u mind where you practice the city and the state? Thanks

 

[yappy]

I know so many engineers that cannot find work either! Some are my friends who after a few years of getting canned after they were on salary working 60hrs/wk and finished the project. It's like everyone is running around trying to find the cash job but there isn't any!

Computer science/engineering is still good and will be in demand as long as Americans remain, at large, unintelligent.Okay I am done ranting. Choose another career.

 

[suarez 7]

I think the problems being listed in this thread are a result of a bad economy, which is what we're in right now. Does anyone think that dentists will bounce back when the recession ends? Meaning, more jobs and work is available?
After 4 years in undergrad and finally getting accepted to dental school, I am hearing that there are no jobs available...

 

[yappy]

Good insight. I remember shadowing a dentist last year who told me about her first two years out of dental school. At the time she had only been out of dental school three years. She had pretty much the same to say as the poster above about working 2/wk days here at office A and 2/wk days here at office B. She seemed to think it wasnt too bad and she got lots of experience. Now she owns her own office and seems to be doing quite well.

I think the problems being listed in this thread are a result of a bad economy, which is what we're in right now. Does anyone think that dentists will bounce back when the recession ends? Meaning, more jobs and work is available?
After 4 years in undergrad and finally getting accepted to dental school, I am hearing that there are no jobs available...

 

[tingting]

Beannaithe hit it right on the mark.

There is no shortage of dentists in markets that will support a private practice. It is saturation, everywhere. Sure you can move to rural maine or north carolina where there are no dentists, but it doesn't really matter because nobody there can afford comprehensive treatment.

It seems pre-dents and dental students are terribly naive when it comes to finance. When you run the math with the opportunity cost of dental school, the loan payments, and the high tax rates we face, the self funding of retirement; it really is nowhere as lucrative as most think. I have family members that work for the federal government that do just as well with half the bull****.

 

[yappy]

Maybe the new path to prosparity is 4 years in the military for loan repayment then get employment from the VA as a dentist. No loans, enrolled in FERS, health care employment package, no issues of losing work or your position, and ~110kl lol.

It seems pre-dents and dental students are terribly naive when it comes to finance. When you run the math with the opportunity cost of dental school, the loan payments, and the high tax rates we face, the self funding of retirement; it really is nowhere as lucrative as most think. I have family members that work for the federal government that do just as well with half the bull****.

 

[Bereno]

There will always be those in a profession who don't do well. This can be due to personality, work ethic, bad luck, whatever. However, on the whole dentists are doing fine - better than most of the other medical related fields (like pharm). On the whole, dentistry is still a great career, that can be very lucrative if you work hard. Why does everyone look at what is wrong with dentistry and not at what is great about it? +1 for maintaining a positive attitude! 😀

 

[Lesley]

Why do you think Pharm grads are not doing well relative to other medical professionals? The problem new dental grads face, based on the above posts, is universal.
There are a lot of nurses who can't find work, ditto for teachers and even some engineers. During times when the economy is having a prolonged recession, it effects everyone. Engineers, lawyers, teachers, nurses and even dentists. The longer the recession persists, the more notable the problem becomes. Right now, there appears to be a glut of all professionals. In the dental profession, there are many unemployed or underemployed dental assistants and hygienists. This will hopefully improve and while some are unemployed there are many who have jobs. There is rarely a day when I go to the office and do not hear of a patient or a patient's spouse who has been laid off, their hours reduced or had their benefits curtailed or a patient rushing to get their work done because they are losing their insurance or retiring, sometimes not willingly. Lately, more young adults are paying cash for their cleanings because they graduated college, a year or two out and have nothing but a part time, if that, job unrelated to their major. What happens to our patient's incomes and the strain of their expenses, their debt, the cost of gas, is going to have an impact going forward in dentistry and medicine in general and their ability to spend on medical and dental care. This alone can cause downward pressure on prices and corporate dentistry may be better equipped to handle this niche. They are a business first and foremost, they watch their expenses whether it be supplies or employee costs. Dentistry for the dentists who want to stay in business are going to have to be provide good care and be even better business people than they have been in the past. And this too shall pass.....everything cycles. If you are in something for the long haul, work smart and work hard and work productively, dentistry will have its ups and downs, but it will all work out in the end. And it doesn't hurt to be lucky! Good Luck everyone!

 

[wired202808]

Everyone I know is making bank in the medical field especially PA, Pharm, Dentists and even those Carib graduates. Doctors that work with excellent business managers make miracles happen.

I'm not gonna write another long "you can do it" thread but the point is that Dentistry is a healthy field with a bright future. If you wanna make extra bank, go work in the sticks aka suburbs in the middle America and you will literally be rolling in dough. Even small cities in PA offer associates guaranteed salaries of 150K.

Doom and gloom my backside. I expect great things 🙂

 

[Timpson]

It is hard to make good money these days in any profession. Older dentists without student loans and who own their own practices are doing great. Some people in this field are getting extremely wealthy.

I agree with what people have said about the problems with dentistry relating to heavy student loan repayments and the economy in general. People are struggling everwhere and many professionals like lawyers, physicians, engineers, and educators have huge student loans.

The demand for dentistry has gone up. Also, our work has become much more aesthetic but we are still dealing with the same problems that people had 30 years ago. Amalgam is just, if not more durable then the composites and porcelain restorations in use today. People still need cavities filled, dentures made, root canals done, and occlusion fixed.

Keep in mind that the number of graduating dentists is still lower then it was in the peak of graduating dentists in the 1980s and the population has increased since then. People are getting older as well, which usually means more dental work needs to be done and people value their teeth more, especially with regards to aesthetics. I am concerned about for profit schools like Midwestern and LECOM opening multiple campuses to make money, but the number of dentists graduating is still acceptable.

The real problem with dentistry is with the huge student loans. A lot of people nowadays (inside and outside dentistry) have huge student loan bills. I think the student loan bubble will be the next to burst. People just cannot afford to pay back their loans in this job market. When this happens, we will probably see some sort of bailout. Or inflation will make everyone's loans easier to pay back. When the bubble bursts, the feds will tighten credit for student loans, and many institutions will shut down. Larger institutions will probably be able to survive better than the smaller, newer schools that do not receive alumni support or state funding.

 

[Bereno]

It is hard to make good money these days in any profession. Older dentists without student loans and who own their own practices are doing great. Some people in this field are getting extremely wealthy.

I agree with what people have said about the problems with dentistry relating to heavy student loan repayments and the economy in general. People are struggling everwhere and many professionals like lawyers, physicians, engineers, and educators have huge student loans.

The demand for dentistry has gone up. Also, our work has become much more aesthetic but we are still dealing with the same problems that people had 30 years ago. Amalgam is just, if not more durable then the composites and porcelain restorations in use today. People still need cavities filled, dentures made, root canals done, and occlusion fixed.

Keep in mind that the number of graduating dentists is still lower then it was in the peak of graduating dentists in the 1980s and the population has increased since then. People are getting older as well, which usually means more dental work needs to be done and people value their teeth more, especially with regards to aesthetics. I am concerned about for profit schools like Midwestern and LECOM opening multiple campuses to make money, but the number of dentists graduating is still acceptable.

The real problem with dentistry is with the huge student loans. A lot of people nowadays (inside and outside dentistry) have huge student loan bills. I think the student loan bubble will be the next to burst. People just cannot afford to pay back their loans in this job market. When this happens, we will probably see some sort of bailout. Or inflation will make everyone's loans easier to pay back. When the bubble bursts, the feds will tighten credit for student loans, and many institutions will shut down. Larger institutions will probably be able to survive better than the smaller, newer schools that do not receive alumni support or state funding.

great post 👍

 

[yappy]

Aye, I agree with student loan issues.

Imagine the lifestyle differences btw these two situations: If I go to my state school I'll have ~150k in debt post grad. If I go to USC or NYU I'll have ~3-400k in debt post grad. That is like night and day!

 

[El Salvaje]

Hey guys I just wanted to thank you for your input and just wanted to say that my initial question may have been a little "glass is half empty" when considering that every field probably has it's fair share of problems. I feel like MDs in particular have a HUGE target on their back (thanks to leech politicians convincing the ignorant masses that someone with the drive/intelligence to earn a professional degree should not only cater to their every beck and whim 60hrs a week but also do it for free) and at least for now feel like we're lucky not having to face longer hours for less reimbursement.

That being said is there anyone you know who regrets practicing general dentistry? Do they think they would have been better off having done a residency like OMS or Ortho where the competition is presumably lower? Every General Dentist I've met is very well off financially and considering that they were all working during the peak supply of dentists in the 80s when the population wasn't as high I'm thinking that is a good sign for the health of our profession. It's the specialists that have been seeing less and less referals as I've been told and I think this is a direct result of the economy which has many GPs doing their own endo, pedo or whatever else they feel comfortable with but normally were too busy to bother with. What are your thoughts?

 

[BlueToothHunter]

Do they think they would have been better off having done a residency like OMS or Ortho where the competition is presumably lower? Not true, orthodontists have increased competition since they started mass producing orthodontists. GPs are now doing more "6 Month Smile" and/or Invisalign. In fact, orthodontists are dime a dozen in saturated market like SoCal...

Every General Dentist I've met is very well off financially and considering that they were all working during the peak supply of dentists in the 80s when the population wasn't as high I'm thinking that is a good sign for the health of our profession. Again, these "well off" dentists are all living beyond their means... on money that's been temporarily burrowed from the bank. I wouldn't count their exterior wealth as their true measure of wealth.

Just because someone is driving a fancy luxury car and lives in a McMansion and wears a bling that doesn't mean that they are doing financially well... live below your means and save for the future... that is being financially smart. Don't have to keep up with the Jones!

 

[charlestweed]

Just because someone is driving a fancy luxury car and lives in a McMansion and wears a bling that doesn't mean that they are doing financially well... live below your means and save for the future... that is being financially smart. Don't have to keep up with the Jones!

I agree with the above poster. You get rich not by how much you make but by how much you don't spend your money on.

Like many new grad Asian dentists, my sister (her husband and her infant son) lived with our parents in a tiny 3-bedroom house for 3-4 years after she finished dental school. While staying with our parents, she worked for a dental chain and used the money she earned from this associate job to set up her own practice. Two years ago, she and her husband bought a beautiful $800k house and they plan to pay this house off by the end of this year. She didn't have to set up her practice in the middle of nowhere…..her dental office is located in the very saturated market in CA. She is successful because she has lived within her means.

 

[yappy]

I think this is a great thread because it raises questions so people can have their eyes wide open going into dental school.

One question I've been wrestling with lately has been weather it's a better investment to go to medical or dental school. For someone like me - I can see myself happy in both professions with a slight bias for medicine. However, I have really enjoyed my time shadowing dentists and assisting so it is more or less equal.

For someone who sees that they're interested in both fields I wonder which is the better investment and has the brighter future. According to the MGMA (physician salary survey) an internal medicine doctor who works as a hospitalist earned 215k on average. This is in addition to medical benefits, mal practice ins, vacation time, and 401k. When you factor in that they are in high need (primary care physician shortage), and that medical school is on average cheaper than dental school - it gives me pause. Indeed, the average GP dentist made ~200k (ADA survey); however, as a practice owner you're covering your own medical ins and retirement. You eat what you kill.

This is without considering other fields like radiology (476,975k/yr), orthopedic surgery (473,770k/yr), etc. etc. Many of these fields also dont have a ramp-up-time that dentists need to fully devolop their practice. To be fair - this is most likely a wash because in medicine you must complete a residency that can last from 3-5 years. However the total employment package is ~50-60k while in residency.

As it has been addressed in this thread; dentistry seems to be facing greater challenges than medicine. Higher competition post grad, more involvement with insurances (the devil you know is better than the one you dont?), much higher total cost of attendence, and more flux with the economy

Do you guys feel that it is accurate to say that dentistry is a good investment but if you're willing to take on the work load (residency then 50hr work weeks) medical doctors will enjoy a higher income and greater job security? Do you feel this is an accurate compairison between the two fields from a financial POV?

 

[charlestweed]

That being said is there anyone you know who regrets practicing general dentistry? Do they think they would have been better off having done a residency like OMS or Ortho where the competition is presumably lower? Every General Dentist I've met is very well off financially and considering that they were all working during the peak supply of dentists in the 80s when the population wasn't as high I'm thinking that is a good sign for the health of our profession. It's the specialists that have been seeing less and less referals as I've been told and I think this is a direct result of the economy which has many GPs doing their own endo, pedo or whatever else they feel comfortable with but normally were too busy to bother with. What are your thoughts?

I didn't come to this country until the late 80s so I don't know what dentistry was like during this period. I think the reasons these dentists did well during the 80s were:

1. They didn't owed a lot of student loans after graduation. I only owed $92k and I got my DDS in the late 90s.
2. Things were much cheaper. With $100k, one could buy a decent house in Orange County, CA. A brand new car (Huyndai Excel) only cost $6k. Gas price was $1/gal etc.
3. There weren't too many big corporate dental chains during the 80s.
4. Insurance companies paid the dentists better…no HMO bs. Medicaid also paid for many expensive dental procedures such as bridges, RCT, crowns etc. Now, California medicaid no longer pay for adult dental treatments.

As Bluetooth Hunter pointed out, like the general dentists, the orthodontists are also facing tougher competition due to the opening of new ortho programs. However, one good thing about ortho is the ortho assistants do all the hard work for their bosses; therefore, most orthodontists can work fewer days in a week (by seeing a large volume of patients in a day). For this reason, the orthodontists have extra days to travel to multiple offices and earn additional incomes. The general dentists cannot travel because they have to stay at one location to take care of walk-in and emergency patients. The same for OS, perio, and endo….I know a few OS, perios, and endos ,who travel to different offices and they are doing quite well.

 

[TheClutch]

What about pedo, perio, endo, and DA?
Isn't endo fading away (eventually in 20 yrs maybe?) because of implants. I've heard what perio normally does (ex, implants, etc) is taken away by OMS and GP. I guess pedo will be okay because there will be always children. DA jobs might be somewhat affected by Nurse Anes.
No?

 

[charlestweed]

What about pedo, perio, endo, and DA?
Isn't endo fading away (eventually in 20 yrs maybe?) because of implants. I've heard what perio normally does (ex, implants, etc) is taken away by OMS and GP. I guess pedo will be okay because there will be always children. DA jobs might be somewhat affected by Nurse Anes.
No?

Keep in mind that the specialists can't survive without the GP referrals. It's important to have great clinical skills but having good GP-specialist communication is a lot more important. In school, the dental students usually worship the dental residents. It is the opposite in the real world….the GPs are the kings and the specialists have to go from door-to-door to beg the GPs.

The GPs don't care if you are an OS and have dual DDS, MD degree or if you can suture the patient's badly damaged face together. The GPs only care what you can do for their patients when they refer them to your office. The GPs only care when the tx plans you recommended are reasonable and affordable for the patients…..for example, can't over-treatment plan, can't charge outrageous fees etc.

Everybody knows that the OS's surgical skills are far more superior than the periodontist but that's not what the GPs look at when they refer patients. The GPs will send a lot more implant cases to the perio if that periodontist works hard, spends time, and takes better care of their patients. The specialist has to show the GPs his/her ability by going from doing door to door to meet the GPs and to help the GPs. You can't just sit in your office and send a bunch of letters to the GP offices describing who you are and expect these GPs to refer patients to you. GPs don't like arrogant specialists. Regardless of which specialty you want to pursue, if you are willing to work hard, you will be a very successful specialist.

 

[El Salvaje]

I think this is a great thread because it raises questions so people can have their eyes wide open going into dental school.

One question I've been wrestling with lately has been weather it's a better investment to go to medical or dental school. For someone like me - I can see myself happy in both professions with a slight bias for medicine. However, I have really enjoyed my time shadowing dentists and assisting so it is more or less equal.

For someone who sees that they're interested in both fields I wonder which is the better investment and has the brighter future. According to the MGMA (physician salary survey) an internal medicine doctor who works as a hospitalist earned 215k on average. This is in addition to medical benefits, mal practice ins, vacation time, and 401k. When you factor in that they are in high need (primary care physician shortage), and that medical school is on average cheaper than dental school - it gives me pause. Indeed, the average GP dentist made ~200k (ADA survey); however, as a practice owner you're covering your own medical ins and retirement. You eat what you kill.

This is without considering other fields like radiology (476,975k/yr), orthopedic surgery (473,770k/yr), etc. etc. Many of these fields also dont have a ramp-up-time that dentists need to fully devolop their practice. To be fair - this is most likely a wash because in medicine you must complete a residency that can last from 3-5 years. However the total employment package is ~50-60k while in residency.

As it has been addressed in this thread; dentistry seems to be facing greater challenges than medicine. Higher competition post grad, more involvement with insurances (the devil you know is better than the one you dont?), much higher total cost of attendence, and more flux with the economy

Do you guys feel that it is accurate to say that dentistry is a good investment but if you're willing to take on the work load (residency then 50hr work weeks) medical doctors will enjoy a higher income and greater job security? Do you feel this is an accurate compairison between the two fields from a financial POV?

Yeah I've also thought about this as well, I mean, it would be hard not too considering how similar the fields of Dentistry and Medicine are. I would say that we are, at the moment and in my opinion, still better off than physicians. To start, a few of the medical students posted those salary survey numbers on one of their forum threads and it was almost unanimously agreed that those figures were way too high. Also (and I realize this may not be the most politically correct point to make) but as an MD you have a lot more stress involved with major complications in your patients health as well as more legal matters to deal with. Botching up an amalgam filling never killed anyone that I've ever heard of and fixing it wouldn't necessarily be the end of the world. Being a radiologist, on the other hand, and missing a cancerous growth in someone's lungs is not only stressful but having to tell a mother and her kids that you screwed up (or even that there was nothing you could do) has GOT to take some sort of an emotional toll on anyone even remotely human. So to put it simply, many undergrads look at the quoted salaries of Cardiac Surgeons or Interventional Radiologists and automatically assume that their quality of life must be better than the average blue collar working man. The fact is, though, that the afformentioned Drs had and will continue to have to make some serious sacrifices (ones that may seem easy on paper but not so much when you go through it all) in order to make that money. Charlestweed might be able to shed more light on the unique stresses dentists face.

 

[usbigbird]

I'm in my first year of private practice so take everything I say with a grain of salt. I have NO idea what some schools are doing with trying to open up more schools and flood the market with new grads. Dentists are not retiring at the rate that many have projected. Truthfully, I do not believe that many older dentists can afford to retire to the lifestyle that they have grown accustomed to.

There is a huge unmet dental need, but sadly, it is due to patients' inability or unwillingness to pay...I have seen a lot of this. Patients present to the office for treatment planning and either don't return or ask us to complete a cheaper treatment (prophies vs. SRPs). Whether it's due to the economy or the messed up priorities, it's sad...

When I was applying for jobs, it was pretty ugly. My husband has a job in a suburban area of Philadelphia, so we had to stay in the area. I spent 4 months looking, sending out tons of resumes. I got several interviews and a few offers. Most were part time (1 -2 days) and many would not offer me a daily guarantee, which is scary as a new grad with a $2k/month loan payment (husband takes care of other expenses). Though I think this will only continue to get worse and wages (35% production/collections was standard about 4 years ago, I had offers from 27- 32% collections only).

Midlevel providers, such as EFDAs in PA that place restorations, are good. They allow dentists to speed up and place multiple restorations, which allows profitability from insurances...dental therapists who will open their own offices and increase competition scares me. It will only drive wages even further down...

I think the glut of new providers is coming, the markets will saturate, wages will go down, dentists will retire, they'll close a couple of schools and dentistry will have another "golden age" about 20 years from now. I heard this happened in the 80s...I guess the market is cyclical.

I don't know why it is so hard for new graduate to find a job. My experience is different. It is true that you could not find a Good job right out of the school, but it is so easy to find a full time job. I graduated two years ago, and last year I changed my job twice. Why change? because I want to try something different and want to make MORE money to pay off my loans. I don't have any difficult to find a full time job. My first job was working for dental chain. If you don't mind to work hard, it is easy to get started with dental chain for new graduates, and at the same time, you can make good money. I made about 20,000/month as employee.(you also have benefit package like health insurance, malpractice and 401k, etc.).This was just an average, my colleague made more than that. The good thing is you have 98% chance to get the offer.(tons of dental chains need tons of dentist.)
My 2nd job was also working for another dental chain but the practice model is totally different. You got a dental office and a team, you were paid by the percentage of the profit. I would say it is good practice model, and you can also make good money IF you have enough patients in your practice. I quit this job after 4 months because I found out the bussiness was so slow in the office. I played my cell phone most of time during the work time, but I still got paid min. daily garantee wage, which was $600/day. My friend working for the same company but busy office, made about $300,000/year.
My third job (my current one) is an associate for a praviate practice. I found this job on ebay.(you can also check local craiglist for dental job.) I am independent contractor. My boss is retiring but still working one or two days each week. I have two EFDAs to help me. My daily production is about $5000-6000. I am paid by 35% of production. You can do the maths. My plan is to pay off my loans($200,000 federal loan) and save some cash for my house down payment at the end of this year.
Just be optimistic. Dentistry is a great career. You get a lot of chance and huge potential to make more and live better.

 

[Sublimazing]

I don't know why it is so hard for new graduate to find a job. My experience is different. It is true that you could not find a Good job right out of the school, but it is so easy to find a full time job. I graduated two years ago, and last year I changed my job twice. Why change? because I want to try something different and want to make MORE money to pay off my loans. I don't have any difficult to find a full time job. My first job was working for dental chain. If you don't mind to work hard, it is easy to get started with dental chain for new graduates, and at the same time, you can make good money. I made about 20,000/month as employee.(you also have benefit package like health insurance, malpractice and 401k, etc.).This was just an average, my colleague made more than that. The good thing is you have 98% chance to get the offer.(tons of dental chains need tons of dentist.)
My 2nd job was also working for another dental chain but the practice model is totally different. You got a dental office and a team, you were paid by the percentage of the profit. I would say it is good practice model, and you can also make good money IF you have enough patients in your practice. I quit this job after 4 months because I found out the bussiness was so slow in the office. I played my cell phone most of time during the work time, but I still got paid min. daily garantee wage, which was $600/day. My friend working for the same company but busy office, made about $300,000/year.
My third job (my current one) is an associate for a praviate practice. I found this job on ebay.(you can also check local craiglist for dental job.) I am independent contractor. My boss is retiring but still working one or two days each week. I have two EFDAs to help me. My daily production is about $5000-6000. I am paid by 35% of production. You can do the maths. My plan is to pay off my loans($200,000 federal loan) and save some cash for my house down payment at the end of this year.
Just be optimistic. Dentistry is a great career. You get a lot of chance and huge potential to make more and live better.

I want to caution pre dents and d schoolers reading this. I think that dental chains have some pros, but make sure you consult your dental faculty and community dentists for their opinion before you go this route.

I'm a new grad still in residency but I have had in depth dealings with 3 of these chains, and all three were staffed completely by foreign trained dentists NONE of which lasted at their job more than 12 months.

And if you read this post it looks like this poster is the same. I'm sure there are success stories with these chains, but there is a reason that these places are so similar in method and practice. These chains have some legitimate cons and negatives. Just make sure you're looking at things with a little more vision than an immediate good salary.

 

[usbigbird]

I want to caution pre dents and d schoolers reading this. I think that dental chains have some pros, but make sure you consult your dental faculty and community dentists for their opinion before you go this route.

I'm a new grad still in residency but I have had in depth dealings with 3 of these chains, and all three were staffed completely by foreign trained dentists NONE of which lasted at their job more than 12 months.

And if you read this post it looks like this poster is the same. I'm sure there are success stories with these chains, but there is a reason that these places are so similar in method and practice. These chains have some legitimate cons and negatives. Just make sure you're looking at things with a little more vision than an immediate good salary.

Sublimazing, you are totally right. Dental chains have pros and cons. As you work longer in dental chains, you feel more negative than positive about it. If you ask me that if I would go back to work for dental chain again, I would say NO!

From the day one, I never expected that I would work for dental chains for more than one year. The big problem for dental chain is that you could not provide quality care to your patients. The company pushed so hard for the production.They double or triple book the patients. It was stressful. What I was saying is that it is good to get started if you can not find any full time job right out of the school, at least the company takes care of everything, and the payment is immediate and not bad. For new graduates who need to build up more skills, obviously dental chain is not good option. That's why you see these chains are staffed by foreign trained dentist. They have more experience. Another reason is these chains provider working visa.

Anyway, I feel more comfortable working in the private practice where I have control for what I like to do and how I would like to do it.

 

[mike3kgt]

I don't know why it is so hard for new graduate to find a job. My experience is different. It is true that you could not find a Good job right out of the school, but it is so easy to find a full time job.

I would also caution anyone who is reading this guy's post thinking that it applies to dentistry everywhere. This dentist's experience is way beyond the norm.

Dentistry's a great field but the first 3-5 years across the board can be awful.

 

[TheClutch]

I don't know why it is so hard for new graduate to find a job. My experience is different. It is true that you could not find a Good job right out of the school, but it is so easy to find a full time job. I graduated two years ago, and last year I changed my job twice. Why change? because I want to try something different and want to make MORE money to pay off my loans. I don't have any difficult to find a full time job. My first job was working for dental chain. If you don't mind to work hard, it is easy to get started with dental chain for new graduates, and at the same time, you can make good money. I made about 20,000/month as employee.(you also have benefit package like health insurance, malpractice and 401k, etc.).This was just an average, my colleague made more than that. The good thing is you have 98% chance to get the offer.(tons of dental chains need tons of dentist.)
My 2nd job was also working for another dental chain but the practice model is totally different. You got a dental office and a team, you were paid by the percentage of the profit. I would say it is good practice model, and you can also make good money IF you have enough patients in your practice. I quit this job after 4 months because I found out the bussiness was so slow in the office. I played my cell phone most of time during the work time, but I still got paid min. daily garantee wage, which was $600/day. My friend working for the same company but busy office, made about $300,000/year.
My third job (my current one) is an associate for a praviate practice. I found this job on ebay.(you can also check local craiglist for dental job.) I am independent contractor. My boss is retiring but still working one or two days each week. I have two EFDAs to help me. My daily production is about $5000-6000. I am paid by 35% of production. You can do the maths. My plan is to pay off my loans($200,000 federal loan) and save some cash for my house down payment at the end of this year.
Just be optimistic. Dentistry is a great career. You get a lot of chance and huge potential to make more and live better.

I applied to this cycle and will be starting a dental school in Fall. And I did my fair share of HW on dentistry. I've sent messages and asked questions to 20+ dentists here and in DT. I've talked with 10+ dentists face to face. I've called Dept of Edu, Sallie Mae, and public attorney for Education loans for IBR. I've talked with dental consulting firm in SF and PHX and had an opportunity to attend Dental MBA CE course for free.
And a lot of them disagree with you. By any chance, are you bull****ing?

I've heard that to make a high income at a chain, you have to be super unethical and be aggressive on patients' treatment plans. Also, a lot of them don't provide daily minimum.... At chains even with minimum, $600/day is pretty high.... (I could be wrong. any dentist here can verify that for me).

And, your buddy makes 300k a year at the chain? Whether it is collection or production, to make 300k, he/she has to generate at least over 900k a year. How many patients is he/she seeing? like 25 patients a day? Or are they all trying to get gold crowns or some expensive procedures done? I thought that a lot of patients going to the chains don't have a lot of money. That's why they choose that over private practices.

I know a few places where new grads look for job postings, but getting a job from Ebay is pretty cool. and new too. I didn't know ebay provides such services.

I personally shadowed a GP who easily pulls over a million. His production went down a little bit since 2008, but compared to other dentists' production changes, it's nothing. He was selected as top dentist by a local magazine. His daily production is similar to yours (5-6k a day) but that includes his hygienists work as well. He has been practicing since late 70's and known for his excellent work.

But you, on the other hand, still pulls 5-6k a day by yourself..... On top of that, you have only 2-3 yrs of experience and manage to see more patients at a faster pace.... That's just amazing, isn't it? Plus you have to generate even more than 5-6k because your boss takes a bigger cut of your production.

I think you're bull****ing and yes I'm calling you out. Your story just doesn't add up.

PS what do you guys think? Am I overreactiong or this guy is full of ****?

 

[stevesteve121]

I applied to this cycle and will be starting a dental school in Fall. And I did a fair share of my HW on dentistry. I've sent messages and asked questions to 20+ dentists here and in DT. I've talked with 10+ dentists face to face. I've called Dept of Edu, Sallie Mae, and public attorney for Education loans for IBR. I've talked with dental consulting firm in SF and PHX and had an opportunity to attend Dental MBA CE course for free.
And a lot of them disagree with you. By any chance, are you bull****ing?

I've heard that to make a high income at a chain, you have to be super unethical and be aggressive on patients' treatment plans. Also, a lot of them don't provide daily minimum.... At chains even with minimum, $600/day is pretty high.... (I could be wrong. any dentist here can verify that for me).

And, your buddy makes 300k a year at the chain? Whether it is collection or production, to make 300k, he/she has to generate at least over 900k a year. How many patients is he/she seeing? like 25 patients a day? Or are they all trying to get gold crowns or some expensive procedures done? I thought that a lot of patients going to the chains don't have a lot of money. That's why they choose that over private practices.

I know a few places where new grads look for job postings, but getting a job from Ebay is pretty cool. and new too. I didn't know ebay provides such services.

I personally shadowed a GP who easily pulls over a million. His production went down a little bit since 2008, but compared to other dentists' production changes, it's nothing. He was selected as top dentist by a local magazine. His daily production is similar to yours (5-6k a day) but that includes his hygienists work as well. He has been practicing since late 70's and known for his excellent work.

But you, on the other hand, still pulls 5-6k a day by yourself..... On top of that, you have only 2-3 yrs of experience and manage to see more patients at a faster pace.... That's just amazing, isn't it? Plus you have to generate even more than 5-6k because your boss takes a bigger cut of your production.

I think you're bull****ing and yes I'm calling you out. Your story just doesn't add up.

PS what do you guys think? Am I overreactiong or this guy is full of ****?

what info were you able to gather from your research re: starting salary, career outlook etc etc?

thanks

 

[DJPaulyDDS]

lol overreacting. why do you care? go study

I applied to this cycle and will be starting a dental school in Fall. And I did my fair share of HW on dentistry. I've sent messages and asked questions to 20+ dentists here and in DT. I've talked with 10+ dentists face to face. I've called Dept of Edu, Sallie Mae, and public attorney for Education loans for IBR. I've talked with dental consulting firm in SF and PHX and had an opportunity to attend Dental MBA CE course for free.
And a lot of them disagree with you. By any chance, are you bull****ing?

I've heard that to make a high income at a chain, you have to be super unethical and be aggressive on patients' treatment plans. Also, a lot of them don't provide daily minimum.... At chains even with minimum, $600/day is pretty high.... (I could be wrong. any dentist here can verify that for me).

And, your buddy makes 300k a year at the chain? Whether it is collection or production, to make 300k, he/she has to generate at least over 900k a year. How many patients is he/she seeing? like 25 patients a day? Or are they all trying to get gold crowns or some expensive procedures done? I thought that a lot of patients going to the chains don't have a lot of money. That's why they choose that over private practices.

I know a few places where new grads look for job postings, but getting a job from Ebay is pretty cool. and new too. I didn't know ebay provides such services.

I personally shadowed a GP who easily pulls over a million. His production went down a little bit since 2008, but compared to other dentists' production changes, it's nothing. He was selected as top dentist by a local magazine. His daily production is similar to yours (5-6k a day) but that includes his hygienists work as well. He has been practicing since late 70's and known for his excellent work.

But you, on the other hand, still pulls 5-6k a day by yourself..... On top of that, you have only 2-3 yrs of experience and manage to see more patients at a faster pace.... That's just amazing, isn't it? Plus you have to generate even more than 5-6k because your boss takes a bigger cut of your production.

I think you're bull****ing and yes I'm calling you out. Your story just doesn't add up.

PS what do you guys think? Am I overreactiong or this guy is full of ****?

 

[Sublimazing]

I applied to this cycle and will be starting a dental school in Fall. And I did my fair share of HW on dentistry. I've sent messages and asked questions to 20+ dentists here and in DT. I've talked with 10+ dentists face to face. I've called Dept of Edu, Sallie Mae, and public attorney for Education loans for IBR. I've talked with dental consulting firm in SF and PHX and had an opportunity to attend Dental MBA CE course for free.
And a lot of them disagree with you. By any chance, are you bull****ing?

I've heard that to make a high income at a chain, you have to be super unethical and be aggressive on patients' treatment plans. Also, a lot of them don't provide daily minimum.... At chains even with minimum, $600/day is pretty high.... (I could be wrong. any dentist here can verify that for me).

So this is what your teachers and community dentists will tell you, and is it true? Yeah for the most part. Ethics can be a grey-zone in the health field and there are few truly right and wrong situations. But these chains, for the most part, require a certain amount of production, and with low production procedures (fillings, ext, etc) you have to be very aggressive to maintain that number. You also have to up sell to every patient meaning a tooth that could probably get away with a large filling you will attempt to crown, or areas of decalcification are treatment planned rather than preventative steps that can sometimes be beneficial. You also often have to hold onto every patient you get and avoid referrals...which means (especially as a new grad) you'll be treating cases that you just cannot handle.

And, your buddy makes 300k a year at the chain? Whether it is collection or production, to make 300k, he/she has to generate at least over 900k a year. How many patients is he/she seeing? like 25 patients a day? Or are they all trying to get gold crowns or some expensive procedures done? I thought that a lot of patients going to the chains don't have a lot of money. That's why they choose that over private practices.

300k does seem high, but you can do very very well at a chain if you're suited to it. If you're fast and can handle the more difficult cases you can bring in a lot of production. If you have a steady patient base who continues to refer their friends you could be making this much from a chain. It definitely is higher than the ones/dentists I know first hand, but I've seen a couple in the mid-200k. This of course involves a 6day work week, and no compunction about agressive tp/up selling.

I personally shadowed a GP who easily pulls over a million. His production went down a little bit since 2008, but compared to other dentists' production changes, it's nothing. He was selected as top dentist by a local magazine. His daily production is similar to yours (5-6k a day) but that includes his hygienists work as well. He has been practicing since late 70's and known for his excellent work.

Just because a GP is skilled doesn't mean he's going to make a lot of money. The business skills of dentistry are FAR FAR different than the clinical skills aspect...and if he is that skilled maybe some of it is that he takes his time on patients and performs well planned quality work. His work may turn out better, but it takes him a longer time and he may not be charging much more.

The bottom line is that you shouldn't get so worked up. Even if his numbers are made up it's just one more reason for you to avoid a chain. Like I said before, I think they work for some people you just have to be sure you're aware of the pro's and the con's.

 

[tingting]

The $300k new grads do exist. The problem is they are usually doing very unethical things to hit these numbers. They are usually chain pedo medicaid practices where they treat every single tooth coming in whether it needs it or not and are very liberal with the coding. It's really not that hard to generate the volume when you have an endless supply of patients coming in that are paying with taxpayer dollars.

 

[psiyung]

I know an underclassman of mine producing 40K a month in these chop shop medicaid clinics...

 

[usbigbird]

I applied to this cycle and will be starting a dental school in Fall. And I did my fair share of HW on dentistry. I've sent messages and asked questions to 20+ dentists here and in DT. I've talked with 10+ dentists face to face. I've called Dept of Edu, Sallie Mae, and public attorney for Education loans for IBR. I've talked with dental consulting firm in SF and PHX and had an opportunity to attend Dental MBA CE course for free.
And a lot of them disagree with you. By any chance, are you bull****ing?
First of all, be aware of your wording. This is a forum, I just want to share my story. You are not even a dentist so far, it sounds rediculus to judge people like that. Please use mouthwash before speaking.


I've heard that to make a high income at a chain, you have to be super unethical and be aggressive on patients' treatment plans. Also, a lot of them don't provide daily minimum.... At chains even with minimum, $600/day is pretty high.... (I could be wrong. any dentist here can verify that for me).
Again, I told you dental chain has pros and cons. Yes, they push hard, it is up to you to do your job unethical or not. I left the first dental chain just because I think it is impossible for me to provide quality care to patients. That does not mean all dentist in dental chain are unethical.
As for min. daily garantee, all dental chains I know they provide this depending on the location(or state) you practice(do you want me to give the names of these dental chains???). You can negotiate your min.daily pay. In first dental chain, my min. was $550/day.



And, your buddy makes 300k a year at the chain? Whether it is collection or production, to make 300k, he/she has to generate at least over 900k a year. How many patients is he/she seeing? like 25 patients a day? Or are they all trying to get gold crowns or some expensive procedures done? I thought that a lot of patients going to the chains don't have a lot of money. That's why they choose that over private practices.

Again, this is the fact. Please don't make judgement without knowing anything! You don't even know the real world of dentistry. All you said was just making a couple phone calls, consulting....come on!!! you know what? when I was in dental school, my teacher told us, as an associate, average income was about 80k to 100k/year. But as I know, most of associates make more than that.

Yes, basically we saw 20-25 pts each day. You are SO naive!! It depends on where you practice. Most of pts for the dental chain where I worked were medicaid pt. Each state has different fee schedule. It matters a lot. If you look at the whole picture, some medicaid dental chains would not open their bussiness in low fee schedule states! In PA, simple filling is about $60, but in MI, it might be $20. These pts pay nothing for dental procedures.



I know a few places where new grads look for job postings, but getting a job from Ebay is pretty cool. and new too. I didn't know ebay provides such services.

I personally shadowed a GP who easily pulls over a million. His production went down a little bit since 2008, but compared to other dentists' production changes, it's nothing. He was selected as top dentist by a local magazine. His daily production is similar to yours (5-6k a day) but that includes his hygienists work as well. He has been practicing since late 70's and known for his excellent work.

But you, on the other hand, still pulls 5-6k a day by yourself..... On top of that, you have only 2-3 yrs of experience and manage to see more patients at a faster pace.... That's just amazing, isn't it? Plus you have to generate even more than 5-6k because your boss takes a bigger cut of your production.

I think you're bull****ing and yes I'm calling you out. Your story just doesn't add up.
Again, just watch your mouth! I don't want to argue with you any more. I feel like it's just waste of my time. You just shadowed only one GP, and made a conclusion that I am bull****ing??? I just wonder if you know dentistry?? Did your consultant ever told you that dentistry is about location, location, and location? where are you located? Have you ever heard of small town dentistry?? NO? let me tell you something about it.
Yes, I currently produce 5-6k/day, and this is only my production. My goal is 8k/day. Now I have 2 EFDAs help me. We will get the third one very soon. Our office has more than 20 years history. We have more than 7,000 existing patients, and we DO NOT accept any new patients for a long time. My production has nothing to do with my boss. I don't know what you are talking about "boss takes big cut of your production".

Who told you that I only have 2-3 years experience? If you want to produce more, go back to build up your skills, dont bull***ing here🙂. Spend more time on dentaltwon, read more dental journals, attend more CE seminars. You have to finish crown prep in 20min, Molar endo in 45min, and 4 CBI wisdow teeth in 30min....Once you can do that, you will feel that I am not bull***ing here🙂.


PS what do you guys think? Am I overreactiong or this guy is full of ****?

Yes, you are absolutely overreacting!! My friend with my similar backgruound working in Dallas, told me that the first year out of school( UCSF), he paid 120k for his income tax!

 

[usbigbird]

I applied to this cycle and will be starting a dental school in Fall. And I did my fair share of HW on dentistry. I've sent messages and asked questions to 20+ dentists here and in DT. I've talked with 10+ dentists face to face. I've called Dept of Edu, Sallie Mae, and public attorney for Education loans for IBR. I've talked with dental consulting firm in SF and PHX and had an opportunity to attend Dental MBA CE course for free.
And a lot of them disagree with you. By any chance, are you bull****ing?

First of all, be aware of your wording. This is a forum, I just want to share my story. You are not even a dentist so far, it sounds rediculus to judge people like that. Please use mouthwash before speaking.

I've heard that to make a high income at a chain, you have to be super unethical and be aggressive on patients' treatment plans. Also, a lot of them don't provide daily minimum.... At chains even with minimum, $600/day is pretty high.... (I could be wrong. any dentist here can verify that for me).

Again, I told you dental chain has pros and cons. Yes, they push hard, it is up to you to do your job unethical or not. I left the first dental chain just because I think it is impossible for me to provide quality care to patients. That does not mean all dentist in dental chain are unethical.
As for min. daily garantee, all dental chains I know they provide this depending on the location(or state) you practice(do you want me to give the names of these dental chains???). You can negotiate your min.daily pay. In first dental chain, my min. was $550/day.

And, your buddy makes 300k a year at the chain? Whether it is collection or production, to make 300k, he/she has to generate at least over 900k a year. How many patients is he/she seeing? like 25 patients a day? Or are they all trying to get gold crowns or some expensive procedures done? I thought that a lot of patients going to the chains don't have a lot of money. That's why they choose that over private practices.

Again, this is the fact. Please don't make judgement without knowing anything! You don't even know the real world of dentistry. All you said was just making a couple phone calls, consulting....come on!!! you know what? when I was in dental school, my teacher told us, as an associate, average income was about 80k to 100k/year. But as I know, most of associates make more than that.

Yes, basically we saw 20-25 pts each day. You are SO naive!! It depends on where you practice. Most of pts for the dental chain where I worked were medicaid pt. Each state has different fee schedule. It matters a lot. If you look at the whole picture, some medicaid dental chains would not open their bussiness in low fee schedule states! In PA, simple filling is about $60, but in MI, it might be $20. These pts pay nothing for dental procedures. In the dental chain's recruit ad, it says average income for associates is 240k/year. Mine is just average. And if you would like to work in New Mexico, you will get 200k/year min. garantee. Do you want me to forword the ad to you?

I personally shadowed a GP who easily pulls over a million. His production went down a little bit since 2008, but compared to other dentists' production changes, it's nothing. He was selected as top dentist by a local magazine. His daily production is similar to yours (5-6k a day) but that includes his hygienists work as well. He has been practicing since late 70's and known for his excellent work.

But you, on the other hand, still pulls 5-6k a day by yourself..... On top of that, you have only 2-3 yrs of experience and manage to see more patients at a faster pace.... That's just amazing, isn't it? Plus you have to generate even more than 5-6k because your boss takes a bigger cut of your production.

I think you're bull****ing and yes I'm calling you out. Your story just doesn't add up.

Again, just watch your mouth! I don't want to argue with you any more. I feel like it's just waste of my time. You just shadowed only one GP, and made a conclusion that I am bull****ing??? I just wonder if you know dentistry?? Did your consultant ever told you that dentistry is about location, location, and location? where are you located? Have you ever heard of small town dentistry?? NO? let me tell you something about it.
Yes, I currently produce 5-6k/day, and this is only my production. My goal is 8k/day. Now I have 2 EFDAs help me. We will get the third one very soon. Our office has more than 20 years history. We have more than 7,000 existing patients, and we DO NOT accept any new patients for a long time. My production has nothing to do with my boss. I don't know what you are talking about "boss takes big cut of your production".

Who told you that I only have 2-3 years experience? If you want to produce more, go back to build up your skills, dont bull***ing here. Spend more time on dentaltwon, read more dental journals, attend more CE seminars. You have to finish crown prep in 20min, Molar endo in 45min, and 4 CBI wisdow teeth in 30min....Once you can do that, you will feel that I am not bull***ing here.

PS what do you guys think? Am I overreactiong or this guy is full of ****?

Yes, you are absolutely overreacting!! My friend with my similar backgruound working in Dallas, told me that the first year out of school( UCSF), he paid 120k for his income tax!

 

[usbigbird]

The $300k new grads do exist. The problem is they are usually doing very unethical things to hit these numbers. They are usually chain pedo medicaid practices where they treat every single tooth coming in whether it needs it or not and are very liberal with the coding. It's really not that hard to generate the volume when you have an endless supply of patients coming in that are paying with taxpayer dollars.

The colleague who made $300k/year was from the 2nd dental chain I was talking about. If you guys know dental industry very well, you should easily guess which dental chain I mentioned. This dental chain is NOT medicaid based. Most pts are PPO or cash pts. I worked there for 4 months. Each month I produced about 100k(actually I was only dentist in the office.) but only one month I hit the budget and got bonus. For 100k production, in my current office, I could make 35k/month, but in this chain, sometimes you only got min. daily payment, which was $600/day. It depends on your overhead.....

 

[TheClutch]

If I pissed you off, I deeply apologize. I made rash judgements without knowing anything but I did it in a very insulting way. so stupid and immature of me. My apology to you. It's great that you are doing well and providing great services. Wish you nothing but the best luck in your career and profession. No hard feeling 🙂

PS Apology to all people who had to read my writing and SDN. I will act more professionally from now on.

 

[Fortatha88]

[



Yes, basically we saw 20-25 pts each day. You are SO naive!! It depends on where you practice. Most of pts for the dental chain where I worked were medicaid pt. Each state has different fee schedule. It matters a lot. If you look at the whole picture, some medicaid dental chains would not open their bussiness in low fee schedule states! In PA, simple filling is about $60, but in MI, it might be $20. These pts pay nothing for dental procedures. In the dental chain's recruit ad, it says average income for associates is 240k/year. Mine is just average. And if you would like to work in New Mexico, you will get 200k/year min. garantee. Do you want me to forword the ad to you?

First, my background. Graduated from dental school 16 years ago, worked as an associate for 5 years, have had my own private solo practice for the past 11 years. Work in the SF Bay Area. So I think I have enough experience, both on the clinical side and on the business side, to make comments that are based on reality. If you and your multiple friends are making 240-300K/year as associates working on Medi-Cal patients, then you and your friends earn more than 90% of all GPs in California. If that's true, then congratulations! If I were you, I wouldn't even bother to go into private practice, as you are already in the top 10% of GP income.

I've been practicing in the Bay Area long enough to see a lot of new grads absolutely struggle, I've seen GPs with 30 years experience accept every PPO plan out there just to keep enough patients in the chair and then have to work like a chicken with its head cut off trying to make a profit on discounted fees, I've seen classmates who have closed their offices and moved out of the area because they just couldn't make it here, and I've seen dentists of certain ethnic groups not only take every PPO plan but then they don't even collect the deductible and the co-pay just to try to get patients. Of course, shady insurance billing goes along with that.

Again, if you and your friends are making 240-300K/year working on Medi-Cal patients, then you truly are exceptional, but readers beware, there are very few exceptional practitioners out there, While we might like to think of ourselves as exceptional, let's face it, most of us aren't. Yes, as much as we don't like to admit it, most of us are just average. And the average GP in California doesn't net anywhere near 240-300K.

 

[NDPitch]

Why are threads like these always filled with the negatives that make me nervous? I wish I could tell the future to know whether or not dental school is a mistake, haha.

 

[HopefulDMD88]

Before dental school, I waited tables and was bartender making less that $20,000 a year, before taxes. I was very comfortable living basically below the poverty line.

"Struggling" as a dentist is a very relative term, I'm sure. Are there dentists who are truly struggling, living in saturated markets and living outside of their financial means? I guarantee it. Does it have to be that way for everybody? No.

Every single professional (and a lot of unprofessional) fields are struggling nowadays. It's the state of the country. I implore you to hop on the forums for general contractors, architects, engineers, physicians, teachers, plumbers, electricians, mechanics, airline pilots, and more. Everyone is worried in this economy.

 

[Lethstang]

The vast majority of dentists who struggle to find work do so because they arent willing to move.