Where do I get a GOOD ADVISOR?

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stephentyler20

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Does anyone have ideas on this? I had a bad advisor in my undergrad college, a bad advisor in my postbac school, a bad Kaplan advisor... Where can I find someone who will tell me what I need to do to get into medical school?

I'm on my second round of apps, and I'm just not feeling that confident. I will pay money, travel, whatever... if such an advisor exists, I want him/her. I've come to the conclusion that I don't know what's best for me with this whole process.

I'd really appreciate any tips/specific references! I'm in the New York City region, but like I said, I'd travel and use phone/email if necessary.

By the way, by "bad advisor" I mean lazy, inconsistent, outright discouraging / disbelieving, TOO encouraging/easy, for starters. One guy just said all my essays were "fine" with only minor corrections - definitely not true. Another advisor just didn't know what the hell she was talking about, which I found out the hard way.

I want someone with a track record and some experience!
 
I've only had bad advisors in my various educational experiences, I always had to be my own advisor. SDN is a great resource to start educating yourself!
 
I believe you, and SDN has been invaluable. But I need a single source, a person with experience, who can look at every bit of my background and tell me what to do to get into school.
 
I don't think such a person exists. You'll need to become that person for yourself. Med school advisors don't have all the answers, no matter how good they are. They can only point you in the right direction. I was an unofficial pre-med advisor at the college where I taught (name is bioteach for a reason - I was a college bio instructor) and I knew WAY more than the official pre-med advisors. Not because they were crappy advisors (they weren't at all), but because I spent hours and hours seeking information out myself. Because of that, students flocked to me for advice. And I don't know any more than the average SDN'er. Advisors just read the MSAR for the schools to which most of their students apply (in-state, etc) , keep a list of required coursework, and learn from experience as their students get accepted/rejected from medical schools. There is no "med school advisor" course that they take.
 
I don't think such a person exists. You'll need to become that person for yourself. Med school advisors don't have all the answers, no matter how good they are. They can only point you in the right direction. I was an unofficial pre-med advisor at the college where I taught (name is bioteach for a reason - I was a college bio instructor) and I knew WAY more than the official pre-med advisors. Not because they were crappy advisors (they weren't at all), but because I spent hours and hours seeking information out myself. Because of that, students flocked to me for advice. And I don't know any more than the average SDN'er. Advisors just read the MSAR for the schools to which most of their students apply (in-state, etc) , keep a list of required coursework, and learn from experience as their students get accepted/rejected from medical schools. There is no "med school advisor" course that they take.

I've been doing my best, but there are always so many questions I can't answer or find good answers for on SDN. Since I'm a non-traditional student, I believe it's even more difficult...
 
u need to move to chocolate bears town he will advise u
 
I found this http://www.judycolwell.com/ she seems to be pretty well versed, but that is all I came up with.

Wow! I had no idea such a thing existed! I guess my previous post was wrong.

$550 retainer and $275/hr! I should have gotten into the consulting business rather than med school.
 
Wow, your posts just never hit one of us who could actually help you, with one exception. Like GujuDoc, I'm now going to tell you things you won't like to hear. Don't feel bad: just look at my mdapps for how ridiculous my app season went.

You posted your stats here.

I'm going to guess that your cumulative undergrad GPA is 2.78. You should not have applied to med school with this GPA. The advice that SOMEBODY should have given you by now is that a cumulative GPA under 3.5 is a very bad bet for allopathic schools, and under 3.0 is a very bad bet for osteopathic schools. One year at a 3.9 doesn't undo that 2.78. Yes, absolutely, you are going to find anecdotal stories where somebody got in with under a 3.0, but unfortunately, you didn't get to be another anecdote.

At this point, let me make sure you know that there are about 45,000 applicants each year for about 18,000 allopathic seats. That means that 60% of applicants, and these are well-qualified applicants, don't get in. That means that even with a clean app, the odds are crap. DO schools have the same rejection rate, and the Carrib is not far behind.

Your MCAT of 28Q does nothing to offset your GPA. If your MCAT was over 30, against a sub-3.0 GPA, you might have seen more love from DO schools, and with an MCAT over 35, you might have seen more love from MD schools.

Since you got some interviews (NYCOM, UIC), I'd bet there's nothing wrong with your app other than your GPA and MCAT.

I agree with the advice you got from GujuDoc here. You also have other options.

As Guju suggested to you over a year ago, an SMP is the fastest way for you to prove you can handle med school. This is a risky and expensive option: you have to do extremely well to benefit. Very few SMPs will take you with a sub-3.0.

You can also keep taking undergrad coursework until your GPA is where it needs to be. You need 2-3 more years at a 3.9 to get over a 3.0. For a 3.5 you need 7-8 more years (obviously not recommended).

So in my mind, and this is the part where I hopefully save you money and piss off Judy Colwell, you have two choices:

1. Focus on allopathic. Take 2-3 more years of undergrad (get a 2nd BS?) at your current 3.9 pace, and then do an SMP. Retake the MCAT and get over 30 (preferably over 35, for comfort).

2. Focus on osteopathic or Caribbean. Take 2-3 more years of undergrad (get a 2nd BS?) at your current 3.9 pace. For comfort, retake the MCAT and get over 30.

Presumably this is where you decide whether you really want it or not. Again, my app season was just as painful and I was just as ill-informed.

Best of luck to you.
 
The advice that SOMEBODY should have given you by now is that a cumulative GPA under 3.5 is a very bad bet for allopathic schools,

Ok, I just have to speak up here because I've seen you make this statement before, and it drives me nuts every time. To say that an OA < 3.5 makes you a "very bad" bet for allo schools is a gross exaggeration. If the rest of your application is strong, a sub 3.5 is not going to keep you out of med school. If you have other weaknesses then you are in trouble, BUT FOR GODSAKE STOP SAYING THAT AN AVERAGE GPA* ALONE WILL KEEP YOU OUT OF MEDICAL SCHOOL. Just needed to get that out of my system. Carry on, sorry OP for the diversion.

*In a quick skim I counted 11 us allo schools with average gpas below 3.55.
 
Dr. Midlife... Thanks for your detailed response, and I really do appreciate the brutal honesty. I forgot I had posted that information before, but let me just bring it up to speed slightly.

The 3.9 Post-bac was over the course of 2 years, although not full time (I worked full time as well) - physics, bio, organic chem, cell bio.

I retook the MCAT last september and got a 33R.

My health-related experience has increased steadily since then - teaching roles, greater responsibility, and I'm getting a good recommendation from a doc I work with, as well as my former volunteer boss. I had neither of those last year.

As you said, these things probably don't offset my GPA terribly, but in one calculation I do recall that I'm slightly above a 3.0 cum. I also agree with you about the SMP thing - few schools want someone with a sub-3.0, however if I do well in the class I'm in right now, I think they'd let me enter into the matriculating program, especially if I have a good relationship with the prof which I currently do. That's a decision I'll have to make pretty soon I guess, and I intend to rock physiology to the best of my ability.

My biggest question is what the hell do I do with my life if I don't get in this year? I've wanted to be a doc so badly that I've put all my focus into it, and I don't really have a good plan B at the moment. I've applied to St. G's - but what's the current opinion on going there these days as far as future prospects? I'm 26, which I suppose is still young, but I feel ancient and as though my life is on hold until I figure out medical school. It's incredibly stressful!

I'm not sure it makes sense to waste the third and final application round next year, considering my application will again be basically unchanged, unless I quit my job and do a full time SMP accelerated program (which my school does offer). The thought of taking the MCAT again makes me woozy, but not as much as the thought of having NO idea what I'd do in the meantime. Being a full time paramedic is great, but I've only recently started to notice that the challenge might be beginning to fade, and the money is just awful.

Anyway, I'm equally enthused about DO as I am MD (in some ways MORE enthused), and that's the truth, so if I got a DO offer I'd jump on it, and I will focus on those apps heavily as well (the primary app is in, they're taking forever to process). I'm just all over the place right now, and I'm even considering taking the GMAT to try for some local business schools, thinking maybe I'll explore my entrepreneurial side a bit! Maybe if I started a medically related business while staying a full time paramedic and retaking the MCAT in 3 or 4 years AFTER completing my Master's - maybe THEN one of these schools would give me a second look?
 
Ok, I just have to speak up here because I've seen you make this statement before, and it drives me nuts every time. To say that an OA < 3.5 makes you a "very bad" bet for allo schools is a gross exaggeration. If the rest of your application is strong, a sub 3.5 is not going to keep you out of med school. If you have other weaknesses then you are in trouble, BUT FOR GODSAKE STOP SAYING THAT AN AVERAGE GPA* ALONE WILL KEEP YOU OUT OF MEDICAL SCHOOL. Just needed to get that out of my system. Carry on, sorry OP for the diversion.

*In a quick skim I counted 11 us allo schools with average gpas below 3.55.

Gotta put "bet" in there. Think like a gambler. I'm not saying it's very bad. I'm saying it's a very bad bet. Being under the average accepted GPA is bad betting odds when you consider the rejection rates. I mean bet-the-farm comfort, which is what we're all doing here in nontrad land.

Meanwhile, as soon as you say "sub 3.5" it's ambiguous again. The OP is looking for hard advice, so I picked a hard number. How about if we call it 3.3? I think that's too low. 3.4? I'd settle for 3.4.

The 11 US allo schools with sub 3.55's include the historically Black colleges and the Puerto Rico schools. You don't go to these schools unless you are in a specific demographic (and props if you are - PR's beautiful). That 11 also includes Tulane, post-Katrina. The other 3 are over 3.5. And the '09 MSAR has only 8 schools under a 3.6. (15 are under 3.6 for BCPM average.)

Lastly, I've purchased and obsessively spreadsheeted the MSAR for the last 5 years, and I've been watching the GPAs rise. I stand by 3.5, ok, 3.4, being the lowest cumulative GPA with which an allo applicant can apply with any level of bet-the-farm comfort.
 
Are you doing mock interviews with someone who will be honest? Maybe someone who has been there-a pre med pre soma club? Sometimes it's not the records but the presentation. You are also in a very competative region and locals get frist shot in other regions. I myself am going on my second try. I've known others that took 4 tries. I do agree the improved GPA and MCAT scores should help. Also, try looking ay the mission of the college-it often will give pointers for interview topics and ideas.
 
Frankly I thought both interviews went fairly well this year. I was wait-listed at both schools, so they couldn't have been too bad. Mind you, one was March 27 and one was April 23rd, so chances are the classes were full by then anyway.
 
I would like to add a few notes to the numerous excellent posts regarding increasing the chances of med school acceptance for non-traditional med school applicants. I am speaking as a former non-traditional MS applicant who had a royally screwed up early undergraduate record and was a pre-med (again) at age 42. I am now a post-nontraditional medical student, post-residency graduate -- now an MD, PhD physician, waiting to take the certification boards in my specialty.

I will present to you some great advice that I received from a professional pre-med advisor (not Judy Colwell) to increase your chances of medical school acceptance. You must think of the AMCAS application season as a race. The starting bell rings at the very beginning of the application season (June or July?). You need to have your AMCAS application READY TO GO when the application season starts, so that it can be processed and forwarded to the med schools ASAP.

You are competing against hundreds or thousands of other candidates who are already "out of the gate" at the start of the AMCAS app season. What we often don't anticipate are the unexpected delays in application and transcript processing, due to some "irregularities" that must be resolved before your application is released to the med schools. My professional pre-med advisor warned me that you have to get your AMCAS application in no later than the summer months (i.e., the early application season).

Your chances of acceptance are greater if you can obtain an interview date at least by the fall interviewing months (preferably early fall). I also found myself on the wait-list, but my interview date had been April 11th. My interview had gone very well, but by that time the first yr med school class had already been unofficially filled. I actually found out this unfortunate information at my interview (they had really finished sending out the acceptance letters a few months earlier).

The fact that you made the wait-list several times means that you are a viable candidate. And realize that these med schools will have accepted applicants who will decide to not matriculate there. So they will have to go to the wait-list. Therefore, the higher you are on the list (meaning that you were interviewed earlier in the season), the greater the chances of your receiving that acceptance letter.

The gambling metaphor that was used in a prior post is quite accurate in describing this application process. It will often feel like a giant "crap shoot" -- but success can be yours if you learn how to better play the game. Good luck to you! :luck: :luck: :luck:
 
Thanks DrMona... I admit, that's one thing I have not done well. Last year, my apps were out super late because I took the MCAT so late. In hindsight, I probably shouldn't have applied but alas, my anxiety to start med school got the better of me.

This year, the waitlist thing screwed me up. I didn't even hear a peep from either school until JUNE, and that was to tell me "hey congrats - you're waitlisted!" Gee thanks. So instead of being pessimistic but prepared, I was optimistic with no AMCAS at the starting gate. I didn't complete until mid-late August, even though I knew better.

This is also why I'm trying to figure out now what I need to do next year if I don't get in this year. If it does make sense to apply the third time, I will need to start preparing my strategy nowish. This may require dropping my full time job and going back to school full time (or doing both, not sure), or making other big changes sooner rather than later.
 
I don't think such a person exists. You'll need to become that person for yourself. Med school advisors don't have all the answers, no matter how good they are. They can only point you in the right direction. I was an unofficial pre-med advisor at the college where I taught (name is bioteach for a reason - I was a college bio instructor) and I knew WAY more than the official pre-med advisors. Not because they were crappy advisors (they weren't at all), but because I spent hours and hours seeking information out myself. Because of that, students flocked to me for advice. And I don't know any more than the average SDN'er. Advisors just read the MSAR for the schools to which most of their students apply (in-state, etc) , keep a list of required coursework, and learn from experience as their students get accepted/rejected from medical schools. There is no "med school advisor" course that they take.

Give that poster a cookie! This is the gospel - you have to be your own adviser.
 
Thanks DrMona... I admit, that's one thing I have not done well. Last year, my apps were out super late because I took the MCAT so late. In hindsight, I probably shouldn't have applied but alas, my anxiety to start med school got the better of me.

This year, the waitlist thing screwed me up. I didn't even hear a peep from either school until JUNE, and that was to tell me "hey congrats - you're waitlisted!" Gee thanks. So instead of being pessimistic but prepared, I was optimistic with no AMCAS at the starting gate. I didn't complete until mid-late August, even though I knew better.

This is also why I'm trying to figure out now what I need to do next year if I don't get in this year. If it does make sense to apply the third time, I will need to start preparing my strategy nowish. This may require dropping my full time job and going back to school full time (or doing both, not sure), or making other big changes sooner rather than later.


I fully understand your frustration about what to do next, especially when you are caught in that wait-list "no-man's land." I was wait-listed twice; I received my acceptance letter after being wait-listed the second time. The only difference in applying the 2nd time was that I got my AMCAS application submitted in July-August, and got an interview at the end of October -- on Halloween (very fitting). This time I was wait-listed in November.

By the next March I was pretty despondent, because I didn't know what else I could do that would make the difference with the admission's committee. I was about to plan for the next application season that would have started in 3 months. So I telephoned the director of admissions, who was originally from my home city, and from one of my alma maters. I asked him, "Can you tell me anything that I could do that would help get me an acceptance from your medical school for the next application season (instead of the "close, but no cigar" status)?

I will never forget that his response was "Well, let's not be so hasty in talking about the next application. The 'fat's still in the fire' for this year's acceptances. So don't give up for this year, just yet."

I still don't really know if he already knew something was going to change for me, or was just anticipating the events that always seem to take place before the first year med school class is finalized. However, on May 16th of that year I received a certified letter from the medical school, informing me that I was being offered an acceptance to that year's freshman class. I was practically in shock, since I had no idea that this acceptance letter would come through for that year.

Therefore, I am suggesting that you might call up anyone from the admissions committee of the respective med schools where you were waitlisted -- the most approachable person at each place may be the admissions liason rep or the director (or whomever you would feel most comfortable talking to). You can even take the approach that as a non-traditional applicant that you understand the evaluation process might be somewhat different -- could they tell you anything that would help to make you a stronger candidate for acceptance next time? You know that they must have liked your application, since they put you on the waitlist (at both schools).

Also be aware that some schools will play this game, especially with non-traditional applicants -- they want to see how much perseverance you have in going for this goal. In other words, they want to see if you will keep on trying, because you want to go to med school so badly, or will you give up after 1 or 2 times?

You have to ask YOURSELF, "how badly do I want to go to med school ? Am I willing to keep trying, and indicate to the admissions committee that I will not turn around and give up, without a fight?"

I have a doctor friend who was once a non-traditional applicant himself, who is now a successful and wealthy physician, and who is friends with one of the deans of the med school in my home city. My friend talked to this dean, and reported back to me what had been communicated to him about increasing the chances of acceptance. Again, this was the main theme that the dean had communicated to him -- how much does an applicant want to go to med school? Are they willing to go to any lengths to achieve it? Are they willing to show up every month, week or day, at the admissions office, basically indicating that they will keep trying until they get accepted?

My friend thought that I would eventually get accepted to this med school in my home city -- which would have made everything a lot simpler for my husband and me. For a long time I would not consider applying elsewhere because I couldn't see myself having to live apart from my husband (I didn't feel that it would be fair to ask my husband to move for med school and then move 4 years later for residency).

Nevertheless, another "advisor" asked me why I didn't consider the other state med school, which was about 500 miles away. When I started making excuses, this person asked me, "How badly do you really want to go to med school? Are you willing to try another state med school, that might actually be more willing to accept non-traditional applicants? If you got accepted at another med school, would you make the sacrifice to live away from your family for 4 years? Again, how badly do you want med school?

Therefore, I had to discuss it with my husband (who has always been my #1 fan and supporter) about what would happen if I got accepted to med school elsewhere. And we both knew the answer -- that there was no way that I could give up the chance to go to med school, even if it meant having to be apart from my husband for awhile. Because we both knew that I would not have been able to live with myself, if I were to give up that opportunity.

Well, as fate would have it, I got accepted at the med school 500 miles away from my home city. But my husband and I knew that we could work this out together -- that we could deal with being apart as long as it would only be for a temporary period of time.

I cannot tell you that this entire process has been easy -- there have been times that I questioned myself about why I ever wanted this (especially when things did not go the way I had planned). But even during the worst of times, there was that continual sense of empowerment that energized me to keep going forward with each day. That feeling of empowerment that came with living out your sought-after dream has been so robust that it has conquered any obstacle or difficulty that befell my path.

I realize that this has been a longer post than I originally had intended. But when I read your questions and concerns, I was reminded of my own questions about "how long was too long" to pursue this dream. Only you can answer these questions regarding how many times do you keep on applying. Just remember this: Don't let any other person convince you that you do not want to keep trying. If you have any further questions, please feel free to post them here in this thread or via private message.

Never give up on your dream!!! :soexcited::soexcited::soexcited:
 
Gotta put "bet" in there. Think like a gambler. I'm not saying it's very bad. I'm saying it's a very bad bet. Being under the average accepted GPA is bad betting odds when you consider the rejection rates. I mean bet-the-farm comfort, which is what we're all doing here in nontrad land.

Bet was in there, just not in quotes. 🙂 I whole heartedly agree that when it comes time to apply you have to consider the odds, but what I don't think is correct is to use gpa on its own to make sweeping statements about what an individuals odds actually are - there are too many other factors involved. If you get to a truly minimum number (which, if forced, I would put at 3.2 based on the fact that by then you are sub-10%ile at even the vast majority of state schools), then you can say things like applying would be a very bad decision.

The reason I'm bothering to argue the point is that, as has been pointed out, SDN is the sole source of advice on the application process for many people. The advice is taken very seriously, so I think we have a responsibility to provide a balanced viewpoint. Your advice is well-respected, and for good reason, but you have to admit there is a negative tinge to it, which you claim is just realism. You err heavily on the side of caution, and I think it would be impossible for you not to be pulled in that direction given your own experience. And of course you're certainly not the only one on SDN with that bent.

I absolutely don't advocate blowing sunshine up someone's butt when they're asking for advice, but I don't think the doomsday approach is useful either. Not only can it cause additional stress for people in this already stressful process, or missed opportunities because people overestimated the risk based on your comments, but it also dilutes the power of those strong warnings when they really do need to be used. Sort of like, oh, saying people will face certain death from a hurricane if they don't evacuate and then 20,000 people survive.

I don't agree that we're talking about a "bet-the-farm" situation. You are saying that the cost of applying with a marginally sub-par gpa so far outweighs the potential rewards that it shouldn't be attempted. But what's "the farm"? What is really at stake?

Money and time are the givens. For a non-trad with a family, time is clearly more valuable. Having a family could either mitigate the relative $$ cost of a failed cycle or increase it, depending on your family's circumstances. If you compare a single non-trad who's been working for several years in a stable career where they've been able to save some money to a married non-trad with kids, a mortgage and a non-working spouse, you have vastly different risk/reward ratios for the same gpa. Do we know how many non-trads fall into each category? Not exactly, but I think it's skewed towards the former based on my own observations IRL and on here. The difference in risk/reward ratios between these two scenarios alone makes stating that a marginally sub-par gpa makes an individual a "very bad bet" way overly broad.

I can show how I chose to evaluate my own risk on the basis of numbers.

MCAT and Undergrad School
  • My 3.35 is more than a standard dev below the avg for matriculants - ie definitely in red flag territory.
  • There are 16 private schools (NO PR or HB) with Lizzy scores at or below mine, and I have one state school available, but it is more competitive than usual for a state school (1 pt above me).
  • I didn't like that limited selection, but I also knew that the rest of my application was strong to quite strong, so I said let's look at what the Lizzies are using the 10%ile GPA. That gave me 26 private schools at or below my Lizzy.
  • The effect of where you went to school plays some role, although to what extent is debatable and varies. There is a relatively small pool of schools that have a national reputation for academic excellence, and coming from one of those schools will probably help to some extent. Further, some schools are also commonly known not to practice grade inflation, which can offset a lower gpa. Mine is one of those, but I didn't trust that med schools actually recognized that until I got the numbers from the pre-med office. Avg accepted gpa 3.6, % acceptance rate 74%-90% depending on whether you used advising services or not. Avg gpa (or slightly lower than avg) but double the national acceptance rate? That convinced me that factors beyond gpa were truly considered. My GPA is sub 10%ile but my MCAT is above 90%ile and I had my school's reputation on my side. The accepted GPA range went from 2.4-4.0.
  • At the end of this I decided that if my own (and my advisors' own) evaluation of the subjective factors in my application as excellent was correct, then the odds for someone with my gpa were not ANYWHERE near as low as they would seem to be based on gpa alone. I also decided my disadvantaged status would probably make up for the racial skew, but that's a vague guess.

I acknowledge that there are some unusual factors in my application that I need in order to offset the very low gpa, but for non-trads there often are. We have had more time to have interesting experiences and build our interviewing and writing skills. Many of us were immature or dealing with outside forces in undergrad, but are no longer hampered by those issues, and can demonstrate that fact in various ways. There is a point at which you can't make up enough ground, but I believe if you can get yourself to within striking distance (which again I think is around a 3.4), you have a good chance at getting in somewhere if the rest of your app is strong. You can't have 2 weaknesses.

So, the combination of what you think the cost of a failed app cycle would be, along with your evaluation of your chances based on your whole application influence your own risk/reward ratio. Is it better to have more certainty? Of course, and most of the neuroticism I see on SDN comes from that emotional need for certainty. A lot of us are rather type A and used to being in control (#1 admitted reason for not wanting to go the PA route? Wanting to be in control.) but this process is not in our control...hence the tendency to exaggerate the risks.
 
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