Where do parents learn to be parents?

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oldiebutgoodie1211

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So parenting is probably among the most important things adults will do and obviously as we all know can have an unimaginable impact on the outcomes of children as they progress to adulthood. My question is where do adults learn to parent? Are there books that are psychologist approved they should be reading? I mean the average person is kind of dumb in my opinion and it seems shocking they are trusted with the life of another human without any gold standard resources from which they can learn how to interact, learn about attachment styles, what they should and shouldn’t talk about in front of kids, how to respond to the child, etc. essentially what I’m asking is I want to point my patients to resources or books they can read when they’re pregnant so that they know how to raise their child in the most healthy way, what books do you guys/girls recommend that’s psychologist approved?
 
oldiebutgoodie1211 said:
So parenting is probably among the most important things adults will do and obviously as we all know can have an unimaginable impact on the outcomes of children as they progress to adulthood. My question is where do adults learn to parent? Are there books that are psychologist approved they should be reading? I mean the average person is kind of dumb in my opinion and it seems shocking they are trusted with the life of another human without any gold standard resources from which they can learn how to interact, learn about attachment styles, what they should and shouldn’t talk about in front of kids, how to respond to the child, etc. essentially what I’m asking is I want to point my patients to resources or books they can read when they’re pregnant so that they know how to raise their child in the most healthy way, what books do you guys/girls recommend that’s psychologist approved?
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cultural/societal norms, society, friends, our own parents, common sense.

Other than "What to expect when you are expecting" (which I didn't finish either), I'm not a big fa of parenting books. Lots of ways to the top of the mountain.
 
oldiebutgoodie1211 said:
So parenting is probably among the most important things adults will do and obviously as we all know can have an unimaginable impact on the outcomes of children as they progress to adulthood. My question is where do adults learn to parent? Are there books that are psychologist approved they should be reading? I mean the average person is kind of dumb in my opinion and it seems shocking they are trusted with the life of another human without any gold standard resources from which they can learn how to interact, learn about attachment styles, what they should and shouldn’t talk about in front of kids, how to respond to the child, etc. essentially what I’m asking is I want to point my patients to resources or books they can read when they’re pregnant so that they know how to raise their child in the most healthy way, what books do you guys/girls recommend that’s psychologist approved?
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Preferably...from their own parents. But, I get what you're saying. I'm not a big fan of the idea of 'psychologist approved' approaches to answering the basic questions of life and/or directing society. I have no desire to become some sort of new 'priest class' that pretends to have all those answers. That being said, the basics of behavior theory and therapy (classical and operant conditioning; motivating operations, the Premack principle, etc.--translated into plain speech) are always useful. In terms of values, wisdom, and morality...that is generally more culturally embedded and we are in interesting times now with respect to the vilification of traditional 'culture.' Have fun.
 
oldiebutgoodie1211 said:
My question is where do adults learn to parent?
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Mostly from their own parents, whether they like it or not, or from other parents they know (family members, friends who are a little farther along in their parenting careers, etc.). Some learn things from books, but my observation is that people tend to choose books that favor the kind of parent they'd already like to be.

oldiebutgoodie1211 said:
Are there books that are psychologist approved they should be reading?
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Psychologists disagree about far less complex matters than parenting, so you're going to find opinions all over the map. Some are reasonable, some are dismal. Regardless, the tasks of parenting are too complex and culture-bound to be vetted by any one profession.

Probably the most useful knowledge our profession has to offer parents is how to apply the basic principles of operant conditioning to shape behavior in a humane and developmentally appropriate way. But there will always be people who take that knowledge and use it in bad faith. Which is why I agree with the others that I'd rather not be in the business of telling people how to raise their children in the broader sense.
 
There’s some movement on academic!parent social media for “evidence-based parenting”’ but it still just winds up with people pretty much exclusively doing things that fit their pre-existing social cultural norms anyway.
 
so there aren’t any go to resources to give to patients before pregnancy to give them some insights/ increase emotional intelligence and make them better parents? I’m looking for books or something to teach people how to sleep train, what attachment means, how to discipline, discipline theory, how to respond to bad behavior, I mean parenting is so complicated it’s kind of shocking people go it alone without adequate study, reflection, and education..
 
oldiebutgoodie1211 said:
so there aren’t any go to resources to give to patients before pregnancy to give them some insights/ increase emotional intelligence and make them better parents? I’m looking for books or something to teach people how to sleep train, what attachment means, how to discipline, discipline theory, how to respond to bad behavior, I mean parenting is so complicated it’s kind of shocking people go it alone without adequate study, reflection, and education..
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The world is complex. But caring for a young child's basic needs and then teaching them how to be a decent and functional human really isn't. This has been going on for 1000s of years without a "go-to" book. So, I think we will be just fine. And if you really can't figure those things out, chances are you aren't going to read a book about how to do them either. At that point, formal Parent Management Training would like be the more responsible and realistic suggestion.

What to Expect When You are Expecting has been a hallmark for years of course. I think if you are expecting the avg patient to read any more than that, your expectations are way too high. Most parent don't even finish What to Expect When You are Expecting. I know I didn't.
 
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oldiebutgoodie1211 said:
so there aren’t any go to resources to give to patients before pregnancy to give them some insights/ increase emotional intelligence and make them better parents? I’m looking for books or something to teach people how to sleep train, what attachment means, how to discipline, discipline theory, how to respond to bad behavior, I mean parenting is so complicated it’s kind of shocking people go it alone without adequate study, reflection, and education..
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Professionally, for discipline/behavioral stuff, I use and recommend The Power of Positive Parenting by Glen Latham. With my own kids, my wife and just kinda did what seemed right at the time based on our collective histories of interacting with our own parents, as well as things we just picked up along the way.
 
erg923 said:
The world is complex. But caring for a young child's basic needs and then teaching them how to be a decent and functional human really isn't. This has been going on for 1000s of years without a "go-to" book. So, I think we will be just fine. And if you really can't figure those things out, chances are you aren't going to read a book about how to do them either. At that point, formal Parent Management Training would like be the more responsible and realistic suggestion.

What to Expect When You are Expecting has been a hallmark for years of course. I think if you are expecting the avg patient to read any more than that, your expectations are way too high. Most parent don't even finish What to Expect When You are Expecting. I know I didn't.
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doesn’t the literature say the first 5 years are the most important in terms of human development? That seems like something one should prepare for rather than wing it
 
MamaPhD said:
Why are you so strongly attached to the idea that science has perfected how to optimize the first 5 years of development?
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It just seems surprising we have a lot of consensus on many insignificant topics but on among the most important thing people can do there isn’t much consensus or resources people can turn to it makes it difficult to counsel patients
 
oldiebutgoodie1211 said:
doesn’t the literature say the first 5 years are the most important in terms of human development? That seems like something one should prepare for rather than wing it
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oldiebutgoodie1211 said:
It just seems surprising we have a lot of consensus on many insignificant topics but on among the most important thing people can do there isn’t much consensus or resources people can turn to it makes it difficult to counsel patients
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For goodness sake, son. It’s a free country. People can raise children how they want, where they want, with the values they want. And there are tiger moms too. It’s all good and legal and “science” has no real consensus on any of it other than feed, comfort, protect, don't hurt. Let it go.

Ironically, i have never heard your specific complaints and concerns from any pediatricians. And they do not seem to be struggling to "counsel their patients" due to this lack of resources? Wonder why that is?
 
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oldiebutgoodie1211 said:
It just seems surprising we have a lot of consensus on many insignificant topics but on among the most important thing people can do there isn’t much consensus or resources people can turn to it makes it difficult to counsel patients
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Feed them. Give them clothing and shelter. Keep them clean and healthy. Don't hurt them. Talk to them. Provide physical contact and comfort. Play with them. As they get older, let them know what they do right and, to a lesser extent, correct them when they do wrong. Repeat and enjoy. It's not that complicated. Young humans are designed well- you really have to go out of your way to mess them up.
 
erg923 said:
For goodness sake, son. It’s a free country. People can raise her children how they want, where they want, with the values they want. And there are tiger moms too. It’s all good and legal and “science” has no real consensus on any of it. Let it go.

Ironically, i have never heard your specific complaints and concerns from any pediatricians. And they do not seem to be struggling to "counsel their patients" due to this lack of resources? Wonder why that is?
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You obviously don’t know many pediatricians because a lot of them are looking for resources. I have no idea why you’re telling me it’s a free country. I am simply wondering if there were any child psychologists on this board with resources that they give their patients regarding child attachment theory, sleep training, recommendations from the AAP, or other things that can help parents during this critical period, especially parents that are interested in being more psychologically minded towards their kids. If you are not well versed in the field or don’t deal with kids I’m not sure why you’re commenting and telling me it’s a free country..obviously anyone can do whatever they want but it’s a fact that some parenting styles are superior to others so not sure what your ssue is. If you don’t have any insight you don’t have to post to tell me things I already know in a disparaging tone
 
oldiebutgoodie1211 said:
You obviously don’t know many pediatricians because a lot of them are looking for resources.
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The AAP has an entire website devoted to parenting so I am confused how pediatricians are looking for resources. :pompous:
There is also Zero to Three which provides information and resources.

At the end of the day, learning to be the best parent is not the same as learning to become a doctor. It’s not like there is a set sequence of steps you need to follow. And in this country, the bare minimum is feeding, clothing, providing basic needs to your child. Don’t abuse or neglect your child and most people will leave you alone.
 
oldiebutgoodie1211 said:
It just seems surprising we have a lot of consensus on many insignificant topics but on among the most important thing people can do there isn’t much consensus or resources people can turn to it makes it difficult to counsel patients
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You are assuming there is a right way to parent. This will vary based on cultures, values, resources, etc...

oldiebutgoodie1211 said:
it’s a fact that some parenting styles are superior to others
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How so? I would argue this is narrow minded and not culturally sensitive, see the above comment.


Regarding practical things, this seems like a decent website/government resource (disclaimer: I've never read anything on it): First 5 California - State Site

You may also want to dive into the literature yourself when you can clarify with the "superior" parenting style is you are searching for. Part of the problem is we psychologists don't want to label what is 'superior' in such a complex activity within so many different individual contexts.
 
I’m pretty shocked that psychologists on this forum don’t believe there is a right way to parent, or rather there are many right ways but there are certainly wrong ways so it’s best to try and avoid the wrong ways, there’s some data showing different parenting styles leading to different personality disorders that someone on here I think it was psydr posted at some point so yes I think there are clearly some superior parenting styles and some inferior ones (domineering/dismissive styles come to mind)
 
I'll second what @Doctor Eliza said. That book is great. I've also read Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child (aka "how to ferberize your child so they'll go to M***f***in sleep") by Marc Weissbluth, which I didn't take any issue with.

I've worked with children clinically in practicum during graduate school and I have really benefited from reading The Explosive Child by Ross Green, who is a clinical psychologist somewhere on the East Coast. His program is based on CBT principles that I've found helpful and it's written for parents. The research is meh last I looked though so take that for what it's worth.
 
To answer the OP,

The same place I learned most of my life skills, the school of hard knocks. It is even tuition free.
 
oldiebutgoodie1211 said:
I’m pretty shocked that psychologists on this forum don’t believe there is a right way to parent, or rather there are many right ways but there are certainly wrong ways so it’s best to try and avoid the wrong ways, there’s some data showing different parenting styles leading to different personality disorders that someone on here I think it was psydr posted at some point so yes I think there are clearly some superior parenting styles and some inferior ones (domineering/dismissive styles come to mind)
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So, you started with an open-ended question but it turns out you have strong opinions on the matter. Why not have the courage to articulate what you believe to be true and quit dragging experts for not having views that are as cemented as your own?

Within the presumed "superior" parenting styles (assuming you are referring to what is called 'authoritative' parenting) there is still a huge amount of variation. I work with adults and have asked 0% of them whether they were sleep trained or breastfed or had parents who gave them money for good grades as children. I do want to know if there is evidence that their parents abdicated or abused their roles.
 
The issue in my humble opinion is that even if there were a "gold standard" for how to parent, most adults are not emotionally mature enough to be a parent. Of course they might learn (quickly or slowly depending on the situation), but the likelihood of someone being able to parent OK is more tied to who they are as a person AND (the most important part) social determinants. Even if they read What to Expect (or the Mayo Clinic version which is much better), is it realistic that they will be able to spend time on every detail while also being part of a capitalistic system that demands they function as workers rather than parents for most of their awake hours? This is one reason to call for a greater access to free quality early childcare, because most parents have to work and spend a significant amount of time away from their children. Looking into the training that early childcare providers receive may be a good place for you to start.
 
MamaPhD said:
So, you started with an open-ended question but it turns out you have strong opinions on the matter. Why not have the courage to articulate what you believe to be true and quit dragging experts for not having views that are as cemented as your own?

Within the presumed "superior" parenting styles (assuming you are referring to what is called 'authoritative' parenting) there is still a huge amount of variation. I work with adults and have asked 0% of them whether they were sleep trained or breastfed or had parents who gave them money for good grades as children. I do want to know if there is evidence that their parents abdicated or abused their roles.
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If one has views about a matter, it’s disingenuous to ask an open ended question to get other people’s opinions? Obviously I thought psychologists would have more insight or maybe this board is not representative or doesn’t have many child psychologists. Either way I got some good resources which was the point of this thread so thanks to those that helped! Also, my views are not cemented at all as I’m not a child expert but obviously if someone makes absurd claims like “all parenting is equal” or “let everyone parent however they want because it doesn’t really matter anyway” those are on their face contrary to the evidence we do have so it is obviously a bit shocking coming from psychologists who are supposed to have at least a bit of insight into the importance of upbringing.
 
We do have more insight, which is why we are telling you it is advisable to stop being so myopic in your approach to human development. The human experience is so diverse. It has been explained to you why it is hard to give clear and generalized recommendations that broadly cover so many diverse groups, parental value systems, is culturally appropriate/sensitive, mindful of resources, disabilities, etc, etc, etc.... Nobody said the things you are quoting above. Have a little flexibility in your thinking.

At a certain point, just acknowledge your confirmation bias is showing.

If you had more details we could better provide you with more specific responses.
 
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oldiebutgoodie1211 said:
So parenting is probably among the most important things adults will do and obviously as we all know can have an unimaginable impact on the outcomes of children as they progress to adulthood.
Click to expand...

You'd be surprised how little parenting actually matters for most people. One of the best books to touch base on this is The Nurture Assumption: Why Children Turn Out the Way They Do. Of course abuse and neglect are damaging, but "good" parenting appears to be very nonspecific in nature. That means that there are MILLIONS of ways to be a good parent. I do think a parent can be too protective, to the point of coddling, but that alone doesn't make a bad parent.

oldiebutgoodie1211 said:
I mean the average person is kind of dumb in my opinion
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The average person is average. As a parent of a wonderful 18 month old, I aspire to be an average parent. My wife and I are kind of making it up as we go along.

And as someone who does a lot of parent management training and behavioral consultation with parents/families, I personally had a breakthrough when I began to understand that everyone has a right to mess up their child.

I'm reminded of this image:
 

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Other books that I recommend for parenting/pregnancy are Emily Oster's Expecting Better and Cribsheet. I'm also just a big fan of loving your child. It comes so easy and all the rest seems to follow.
 
borne_before said:
You'd be surprised how little parenting actually matters for most people. One of the best books to touch base on this is The Nurture Assumption: Why Children Turn Out the Way They Do. Of course abuse and neglect are damaging, but "good" parenting appears to be very nonspecific in nature. That means that there are MILLIONS of ways to be a good parent. I do think a parent can be too protective, to the point of coddling, but that alone doesn't make a bad parent.



The average person is average. As a parent of a wonderful 18 month old, I aspire to be an average parent. My wife and I are kind of making it up as we go along.

And as someone who does a lot of parent management training and behavioral consultation with parents/families, I personally had a breakthrough when I began to understand that everyone has a right to mess up their child.

I'm reminded of this image:
Click to expand...

This post, as well as because of the dozen other books or articles already mentioned on this thread is why I don't really do this stuff.

Lets advocate for the basics and leave the PR and pop psych stuff to Dr. Phil. The weather man don't know when its gonna rain...and we don't really know **** about **** in regards to parenting beyond Maslow. In the grand scheme of things....its not really our role anyway. Sleep Training? Talk about that to a parent from Latin America/South America and see how important or necessary that is, lol.
 
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borne_before said:
You'd be surprised how little parenting actually matters for most people. One of the best books to touch base on this is The Nurture Assumption: Why Children Turn Out the Way They Do. Of course abuse and neglect are damaging, but "good" parenting appears to be very nonspecific in nature. That means that there are MILLIONS of ways to be a good parent. I do think a parent can be too protective, to the point of coddling, but that alone doesn't make a bad parent.



The average person is average. As a parent of a wonderful 18 month old, I aspire to be an average parent. My wife and I are kind of making it up as we go along.

And as someone who does a lot of parent management training and behavioral consultation with parents/families, I personally had a breakthrough when I began to understand that everyone has a right to mess up their child.

I'm reminded of this image:
Click to expand...

hey thanks for your post..you said you do behavioral consultation for parents, are you a child psychologist?
 
erg923 said:
This post, as well as because of the dozen other books or articles already mentioned on this thread is why I don't really do this stuff.

Lets advocate for the basics and leave the PR and pop psych stuff to Dr. Phil. The weather man don't know when its gonna rain...and we don't really know **** about **** in regards to parenting beyond Maslow. In the grand scheme of things....its not really our role anyway. Sleep Training? Talk about that to a parent from Latin America/South America and see how important or necessary that is, lol.
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I'd wager some people are doing sleep training in Latin America.

The response in this thread surprises me. To me, the OP is just asking what psych science knows about parenting. To say, "nothing because variance" seems to undercut a lot of our claims wouldn't you think?
 
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OP: Here's an article from the monitor of psychology. It's our org's rag so it's not peer reviewed, but might be a good resource to get started:

www.apa.org

Parenting that works

Research-backed ways to improve parenting include praise, ignoring minor misbehavior, time-outs and taking care of yourself.
www.apa.org www.apa.org
 
oldiebutgoodie1211 said:
hey thanks for your post..you said you do behavioral consultation for parents, are you a child psychologist?
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I am not a clinical child psychologist per se. To disinterested relatives, I will tell them I am a child or pediatric psychologist. To people on airplanes, I tell them I work in special education.

I have a PhD in School Psychology and am a licensed psychologist. I do not work in schools. However, I am facisnated by learning, learning disabilities, and the neurodevelopmental disorders. I am currently working in a large multispeciality clinic focusing various chronic illnesses and developmental disabilities. I do a ton of ID/ASD evaluations.

I got exposed to parenting stuff on my internship. It was a surprise (to me), that I liked it so much and followed up on a post doc that was very supportive.
 
R. Matey said:
To say, "nothing because variance" seems to undercut a lot of our claims wouldn't you think?
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I would prefer academic psychology in the Western World to not start writing position papers on such things. No good can come of this.
 
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erg923 said:
This post, as well as because of the dozen other books or articles already mentioned on this thread is why I don't really do this stuff.

Lets advocate for the basics and leave the PR and pop psych stuff to Dr. Phil. The weather man don't know when its gonna rain...and we don't really know **** about **** in regards to parenting beyond Maslow. In the grand scheme of things....its not really our role anyway. Sleep Training? Talk about that to a parent from Latin America/South America and see how important or necessary that is, lol.
Click to expand...

I choose those books because they do an excellent job of show how little we actually know about parenting. I think to sum it up, we know a lot about what might hurt a kid from a parenting standpoint, but we don't know what makes a good parent. In my practice, I try to engineer a better fit between a kid's needs and their parents, but at the end of the day, its mostly time out and positive reinforcement for parents 101. But god damn, does it help when you have a kid with ODD, ADHD, etc.
 
erg923 said:
I would prefer academic psychology in the Western World to not start writing position papers on such things. No good can come of this.
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You would prefer subject matter experts in psychology not write about things that influence behavior, psychological well-being, and psychopathology?
 
WisNeuro said:
You would prefer subject matter experts in psychology not write about things that influence behavior, psychological well-being, and psychopathology?
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Exactly.

I think Skinner did this?
 
John B. Watson (of Little Albert fame) did a lot of thinking and writing on this topic.
 
R. Matey said:
I'd wager some people are doing sleep training in Latin America.

The response in this thread surprises me. To me, the OP is just asking what psych science knows about parenting. To say, "nothing because variance" seems to undercut a lot of our claims wouldn't you think?
Click to expand...

Well, not entirely. As MamaPhD mentioned, what started out seeming like an open-ended question turned into a discussion about "superior" behaviors.

As others pointed out, that kind of shifted things from a discussion of general findings from the literature.
 
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