Where does a dissertation fit in the PhD timline?

[biogirl215]

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Okay, I know this is a really basic question, and I'm kicking myself for not knowing the answer, but is the dissertation usually completed before or after the candidate's APPIC internship (I'm assuming it's not during! 😱).

Thanks.

 

[Jon4PsyD]

I probably shouldn't be answering this since I'm not IN a doctoral program (yet) but...from what I've seen the good chunk of the year BEFORE the full year internship is dedicated to the dissertation (usually year 4)...in Counseling programs I've noticed it's usually the 3rd year (since most candidates come in with an M.A. already).

Hope it helped
Jon

 

[JockNerd]

Yeah, year 4 is usually heavy with dissertation credits. You want your dissertation to at LEAST be proposed by the time you apply for internship. The ideal is to have it defended and done with by the time you leave for internship, but that isn't always manageable for everyone.

Make a plan with your adviser as early as you can. I'm defending my masters at the end of this academic year and then immediately beginning my dissertation research, which I'll propose right after I do quals and then defend and be done with. The viability of different plans depends on the school you go to and its policies, so when you get into a program check what your adviser suggests.

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

You have to defend your proposal before going on an APPIC internship. This means you have to have chapter one (lit review) and chapter two (methods section) done before you leave.

 

[psychanon]

You shouldn't feel stupid asking it, because there's no definite answer. Some people are able to defend it completely before they leave for internship-- those people are usually in the best shape, but this is extremely hard to do in 4 years, and sometimes difficult even in 5. Others do work on their diss during internship-- but this can be stressful, as you'll be working 40-70 hrs a week during internship. Some stragglers don't finish by the end of internship, and end up not getting their degree right away. Remember there are multiple stages to the dissertation. The first is defending a proposal in front of your committee, including a lit review and proposed methods (this is not always in the form of intro + methods-- mine, for example, was in the format of an NIH grant, because I had previously submitted an F31 on the same project). As others have mentioned, this is usually required to be completed prior to submitting internship applications. The next is the data collection. This is something that you really want to do before going on internship; otherwise, it is likely you will be ABD for a while. Next is data analysis, then writing up the final dissertation (which may mean an expansion of the earlier lit review and methods), and finally defending it in front of your committee. These last stages can be reasonably done on internship (but the earlier they are completed, the happier you will be on internship).

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

...the next is the data collection. This is something that you really want to do before going on internship; otherwise, it is likely you will be ABD for a while. Next is data analysis, then writing up the final dissertation (which may mean an expansion of the earlier lit review and methods), and finally defending it in front of your committee. These last stages can be reasonably done on internship (but the earlier they are completed, the happier you will be on internship).

Unless you have archival data like me 🙂

Mine should be completely done some time in February.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

My old golfing buddy was on year 6 or 7 of his dissertation before he finally defended.....different field, but just a warning to stay on top of things!

-t

 

[Ollie123]

Do you mean year 6 or 7 of dissertation or of school?
If of school, that's nothing.

I believe the "record" that I have heard for a clinical is year 15 of school.
They got a full time job and just never wrote the damn thing, but kept ties to the school instead of just dropping out. If you count people who actually go off into ABD-land and come back after a mid-life crisis, you could probably double that number😉

 

[JockNerd]

Unless you have archival data like me 🙂

Mine should be completely done some time in February.

You can use archival data in a dissertation? I thought the diss had to be original start to finish. 😕 Maybe that's only a rule where I am.

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

Do you mean year 6 or 7 of dissertation or of school?
If of school, that's nothing.

I believe the "record" that I have heard for a clinical is year 15 of school.
They got a full time job and just never wrote the damn thing, but kept ties to the school instead of just dropping out. If you count people who actually go off into ABD-land and come back after a mid-life crisis, you could probably double that number😉

The problem with this is that most schools require you to keep registering for dissertation units. Expensive.

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

You can use archival data in a dissertation? I thought the diss had to be original start to finish. 😕 Maybe that's only a rule where I am.

Yep. You still have to get IRB approval though.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Do you mean year 6 or 7 of dissertation or of school?
If of school, that's nothing.

I believe the "record" that I have heard for a clinical is year 15 of school.
They got a full time job and just never wrote the damn thing, but kept ties to the school instead of just dropping out. If you count people who actually go off into ABD-land and come back after a mid-life crisis, you could probably double that number😉

of dissertation. He was teaching and doing other things (life golf every weekend), so it moved at a glacial pace.

-t

 

[Ollie123]

In that case he could be up for competition with that 15th year student I mentioned🙂

Archival data would have no hope of flying here. Not sure it would even fly as a master's actually - we can do it for first year projects just because trying to get a study proposed, approved, run, analyzed and written from September to May isn't realistic given you can have 2-3 months sucked up just from the IRB. Someone MIGHT be able to squeak it through as a master's if they were doing something incredibly innovative statistically.

Think it depends on the field and program though. In Epidemiology for example, I think using an already collected data set is probably the norm.

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

In that case he could be up for competition with that 15th year student I mentioned🙂

Archival data would have no hope of flying here. Not sure it would even fly as a master's actually - we can do it for first year projects just because trying to get a study proposed, approved, run, analyzed and written from September to May isn't realistic given you can have 2-3 months sucked up just from the IRB. Someone MIGHT be able to squeak it through as a master's if they were doing something incredibly innovative statistically.

Think it depends on the field and program though. In Epidemiology for example, I think using an already collected data set is probably the norm.

Mine is reliability and factor analysis on an instrument developed and administered to 1200 soldiers. It is designed to predict who will not make it through a deployment and have to be sent home early. Not sure why that would not be scholarly enough, but no one batted an eye at the fact that the data was already collected.

 

[JockNerd]

Mine is reliability and factor analysis on an instrument developed and administered to 1200 soldiers. It is designed to predict who will not make it through a deployment and have to be sent home early. Not sure why that would not be scholarly enough, but no one batted an eye at the fact that the data was already collected.

I think the different perspective is that where I go and I presume where Ollie goes, the diss is intended to be a student-initiated project from start to finish in order to demonstrate the competence of the student at *all* stages of research, from conception to implementation to analysis to dissemination. I thought this was a general rule of dissertations, but I guess apparently it's more an institution-by-institution thing.

So, while that sounds like an interesting research project (and I 😍 love EFA and CFA; I'm doing two right now), it wouldn't be usable as a diss where I am because the student wasn't at the helm of the original project.

 

[Ollie123]

Yup, can't really say anything JN didn't.

Hope I didn't come across as demeaning it since I think that's great and without a doubt a worthwhile contribution to the field, just that I definitely don't think its something someone here would be allowed to do for exactly the reasons that JN mentioned. I too, had assumed all dissertations, at least in clin. psych, had to be a full blown research study, but I guess that was just the places I looked into.

 

[clearcolor]

At my clinical psych PhD program, we can also use archival data for the dissertation.

 

[RayneeDeigh]

I know someone who used archival data and ended up creating an assessment scale that is now widely used... so archival studies definitely can produce useful stuff.

 

[psychanon]

To some extent, it varies by school and even within school by dissertation committee. We can't really use archival data for dissertations here, unless the student has demonstrated through another project their ability to independently collect data. It would be totally OK for a master's thesis-- I don't know if it's worthwhile to make students collect their own data for every hurdle in grad school, as that would both impede progress and encourage simple, quick studies, like questionnaires in mass testing.

I don't understand why you'd have to go through the IRB for a project using archival data, though-- are there sensitive data involved (e.g., hipaa type stuff) and if so, are they identifiable? If not, I don't see how there could be a risk to participants, so why would you need to go through the hassle of the IRB?

PS-- there is no question that archival data can be used to produce important, impactful results. If we did a new study for every research question we ever had, we would be exceedingly wasteful of resources, to the point of being unethical. The issue is more whether doing a study using archival data provides the same learning experience as moving through the entire research process-- not just to get the experience of data collection, but to design a methodology to meet your research goals. I don't know if the data collection experience is necessary. But I do envy
73BARMYPgsp. I wish my dissertation were going to be done in April!

 

[JockNerd]

I know someone who used archival data and ended up creating an assessment scale that is now widely used... so archival studies definitely can produce useful stuff.

Oh, heck yes. And the project sounds like a useful addition to the field. I had just been under the impression that the conception-to-defense dissertation was something that happened everywhere. At my uni a scale analysis using archival data would certainly be encouraged, but it wouldn't be possible to use as a dissertation, is all. Now I know that it varies by school. 😉

 

[psychwanabe]

Sounds like everyone has given every answer I could think of.

The one thing I'm not sure has been said is that, if at all possible, it is best to defend prior to going out on internship. I've heard many stories about how tough internship positions can be, and that if you are still working on your dissertation while you're out, you are going to have a tough time finishing that year.

BTW, why didn't anyone warn me that the second you start grad school you start getting pressured about your dissertation topic? 😱

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Sounds like everyone has given every answer I could think of.

The one thing I'm not sure has been said is that, if at all possible, it is best to defend prior to going out on internship. I've heard many stories about how tough internship positions can be, and that if you are still working on your dissertation while you're out, you are going to have a tough time finishing that year.

BTW, why didn't anyone warn me that the second you start grad school you start getting pressured about your dissertation topic? 😱

It depends on the site. I know some places will work their interns to the bone, but others not only have fair hours, but have protected research time. Some places are known, others you can find out during the interviews. I'm not applying to either type of program (I'm looking at fair and research recommended but not required), so I can't comment on too many specific places.

-t

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

To some extent, it varies by school and even within school by dissertation committee. We can't really use archival data for dissertations here, unless the student has demonstrated through another project their ability to independently collect data. It would be totally OK for a master's thesis-- I don't know if it's worthwhile to make students collect their own data for every hurdle in grad school, as that would both impede progress and encourage simple, quick studies, like questionnaires in mass testing.

I don't understand why you'd have to go through the IRB for a project using archival data, though-- are there sensitive data involved (e.g., hipaa type stuff) and if so, are they identifiable? If not, I don't see how there could be a risk to participants, so why would you need to go through the hassle of the IRB?

PS-- there is no question that archival data can be used to produce important, impactful results. If we did a new study for every research question we ever had, we would be exceedingly wasteful of resources, to the point of being unethical. The issue is more whether doing a study using archival data provides the same learning experience as moving through the entire research process-- not just to get the experience of data collection, but to design a methodology to meet your research goals. I don't know if the data collection experience is necessary. But I do envy
73BARMYPgsp. I wish my dissertation were going to be done in April!

I think it is to get used to the procedure. It is a hassle, because they want to you to propose the methods and explain everything you plan to do. When it is archival, you check the box for "expedited" or "Exempt" and it goes through faster.

 

[phd2006]

...
The one thing I'm not sure has been said is that, if at all possible, it is best to defend prior to going out on internship. I've heard many stories about how tough internship positions can be, and that if you are still working on your dissertation while you're out, you are going to have a tough time finishing that year...

If at all possible, defend PRIOR to going on internship. Not only the potential work load of internship (as you pointed out), but also there is no guarantee you'll get an internship close to your school. So, you'll have to do a lot of communication by phone/email (drafts, analysis, edits, scheduling defense, etc.) and then physically return to your school for your defense (which means time off from internship and $).