I am leaning toward going to UBC because I like vancouver and it is cheaper. However, I am just wondering if anyone of you know which program is better in term of clinical experience.
Which dental program is better, UBC or CASE Western?
- Thread starter EZH2
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hahaha i feel ya
I'm gonna go to case because it is closer for me (toronto)
costs about the same actually
67k US (80000CAD) including living expenses
72 CAD but really i think it will cost a lot more than that
both are at 80k i think
i don't know UBC definitely has newer buildings
but meh
I'm gonna go to case because it is closer for me (toronto)
costs about the same actually
67k US (80000CAD) including living expenses
72 CAD but really i think it will cost a lot more than that
both are at 80k i think
i don't know UBC definitely has newer buildings
but meh
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i found this from
http://www.premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25519&page=15
not sure if its okay for me to copy/paste their messages but here it is...
there are two arguments. Nice smile vs Adversary
after reading what Nice smile has to say...hm...
Originally Posted by Nice smile
Hellooo all UBC lovers..
I guess after all its time for you to really know what UBC is all about
and from someone who actually knows and tells the truth not someone who is in admission and post stuff to advise plp to go to ubc so ubc wont loose money again
I am from BC and i did my undergrad in UBC..and I can tell you one thing about this school.. its a freaking $ sign .. Specially its Dental school.
Like all you guys dentistry is my goal...and I always wanted to go to ubc dental until I found how disorganize this school is. My fiancé is in second year dental and my best friends are in 1st and 3rd year so you really should wonder why I didnt even apply to UBC.
Yeah Vancouver is beautiful and the clinic is greaaaat but is it really worth it to pay 200 grand for using that place for 2 years? As you know your classes are mixed with 260 medical students so technically you are invisible for 2 years unless you use the ugly bag they give you in first year.
So this how the program is:
1st year your classes are in LSC in ubc campus.. You have your pbl at 8-10 and then the usual medical classes go till 5pm with one-hour lunch break. you have pbl every mon/wed/Friday.. which means you have to be prepared every day and answer 6-8 questions every day, that is fine, after all you want to be a dentist.. now the funny thing is that you think you are on same boat with medical student.. but its NOT the case.. you always have 3-4 extra dent question which the throw in there just to make you fell youar doing some dent stuff. Soo when all med student are taking their break you have to bang your head to the wall and answer these question .not to mention that the med students also get free hours when you guys have your dent classes.
2nd year.. only gets more beautiful your term goes all the way from January to July.. you finish school in end of may and start the bootcamp a week after it..haha fun
2nd year classes are held in VGH (Vancouver general hospital) which is 20 min drive from UBC..you know why? Lool cuz 1) The dental school is to cheap to pay for classrooms 2) the med students have to be there since they have their family clinic there loool told you..you are invisible
so you will end up most of your time traveling from ubc to vgh.. you have your pbl and med class at 8-12 in vgh.. and then you have to use your lunch break to get to ubc for dent class at 1pm.. this is for most of the days some days you actually stay in vgh all day but again the good part is you have to pick up your note from your box in ubc.. since all the boxes in vgh are for MED students.. great haa?.. this is what I call organization.
You finally get to see the BEAUTIFUL clinic once a week.. when you learn some basic stuff..like measurements and putting rubber damp and .. but the problem is its not enough time to excel on it.. they teach you a new thing every Thursday and the exam you on it every month.. so what happens is they open the clinic for student on Mondays to practice.. but since the 3rd & 4th years are there and there is not enough room.. the 2nd years have to go from 6-8pm.. of course after you are done class in VGH and you have 40 min drive during rush hours to get to ubc.. isn it niceeee.. you are practically on your feet from 7am-9pm
And then finally you start your 3rd year and 4th year which you will be in ubc all day.. you start with realll patient at 7:30 am meaning that you have to be there at 6:30 (set up)-6 ( clean up) GOD knows how prepare you are.. most students have someone in there family who is a dentist soo they go shadow during their second year summer.. since 3rd year is nooo jookeee
GOOD LUCK ALL
Adversary:
I feel that I have to correct some inaccuracies in Nice Smile's post. Note that I genuinely believe he conveyed some accurate opinions and testimonies expressed by past and present dental students albeit some errors. However, keep in mine these are opinions I have heard both good and bad. I wont comment on them because I want to convey only information. Anything beyond you will have to assess for yourself.
Now for those who have been around long enough, you know I advocate choosing the school that fits you best. I have been pretty vocal about that. In fact, this is part of the reason why I joined the UBC Admissions Committee - I pushed for tours and more info sessions so that applicants like you can make a more informed choice, one I never truly had. For those who have been around, you would recall I started the very first UBC Dentistry tour with Q&A for applicants last year. I have never actively pushed applicants to go to UBC. Rather, I have only provided information.
As for the concern over UBC losing money, whether that happens or not is not my concern at all. My tuition and clinic fee was budgeted for all 4 years. It will not change beyond inflation. Any financial concerns will only be built into the budget for the incoming classes. Hence, it is no loss to me as an individual student.
In terms of costs yes, it is one of the most expensive dental schools if not the most. However, like all dental treatments, you know it in advance. For those who actually attended the openhouse, I was told that a full satisfactory explanation of the budget was given to you (none of the current students had that so you would know more than any of us). I wont comment on how the $$$$ affects my wallet, but I chose this school mainly because I have family here and they are important to me. I chose UBC over UWO because my family is priority. Like I said before, choose the school that fits you best I did based on my priorities. I advise you to do the same.
As for joining the 256 medical students, of which a sizable amount will be leaving after term 1 for Prince George and Victoria, I actually liked the crowd. It gave me a chance to know a number of medical students who I can rely on later in life. However, for others in my class who were chronic skippers, the sheer size sure gave them the opportunity to remain covert. Now I do not advocate this at all, but I know people who skipped 90 percent of the lectures in both first and second year. They are now suffering because they were so used to skipping and cannot now because there are only 50 of us (including the incoming 10 international students). Oh, and some of those who dis not skip wind up just sleeping in class. 256 heads really help mask those sleepers.
Most of what Nice Smile describes of first year is true albeit the color commentary (I leave that up to you to interpret) and minor errors. Yes, on MWF (not everyday), you start PBL sessions from 8 am to 10 am. I imagine the purpose is to prevent skipping since most of us would love to sleep in just a little more. With 8 people per group, you cant skip or come late without been noticed. Furthermore, the school is big on professionalism so it influences the way the system works.
Yes, there is always a list of learning objectives to research after every session except the Friday one (because the case finishes on Friday). After PBL, there are usually 2 1-hour lectures followed by 1 hour lunch at noon. The afternoon varies depending on the block (topic) you are studying. Tuesdays and Thursdays are usually histology labs, additional group sessions, etc. However, not all days end at 5 pm. There are usually half-days each week which are called independent studies. Back in my day, we had a whole day off during some weeks. However, the reality is if you want to look at it overall, you are going 8 am to 5 pm daily excluding the half-days.
Again, some corrections for second year. The year goes from the last week of August to the end of June. Whats so-called bootcamp is the month of June. However, please note that bootcamp is an outdated term it was used to describe the intense month when operative dentistry started. This changed during my year when they shifted operative dentistry back to January. Bootcamp was actually relaxing for my class. Also, were not the exception - U of A has a separated Dentistry bootcamp for both Year 1 and 2. Feel free to draw your own opinions on whether this is good or bad.
As for travel, yes, I will never forget those days of driving from Vancouver General Hospital to UBC. Without traffic, the drive from VGH to UBC is about 20 minutes (30 minutes when the traffic jam hits). You are not the only ones that have to do this med students do so as well, but not as frequent as we do. This is because all of us have to go back to UBC for anatomy and histology because the labs are located at the Life Science Centre (LSC). The reason for this travel is because these classes at VGH are medical curriculum classes and as a result, are built to make things easier for the Medicine Specialists who teach us, most who work at VGH, the central hospital of BC. Because you still have to attend dental classes, you have to go back to dental school which is at UBC. Hence, you travel more. As for the medical students, they have a better schedule because those courses were built to accommodate them, not really you. Thus, they have mail boxes in both the LSC (which the BC Government invested in for Health Care = Medicine, not Dentistry) and at VGH. The Medicine staff decided to place their materials there when they need because they have staff at both locations Dentistry does not. Now, heres the thing, you do get a box at VGH along with the one inside the dental school, but our staff is in the dental school so they decide to put your notes, etc in the dental school box. However, on a number of occasions due to short timing, they do make the trip out to help us out.
As for seeing the clinic, I am sure the first years on this forum can tell you they have started using it. It is a misconception that you dont enter the clinic until 3rd year. What you the applicant should differentiate and identify as important is when operative dentistry begins (drilling, hand skills, etc). At UBC, this begins in January of 2nd year. It used to be at the end of 2nd year during bootcamp. I am well aware that a number of schools start earlier than us, ie. UWO, etc. I suggest you speak to different students from different schools about how they feel about it.
Because my class was the first to start operative dentistry earlier, they had to modify the third year practice schedule which was basically 5 pm to 7 pm MTWTh. Practice time was prioritized for third years so Monday was the one given up for 2nd years. Because clinic time goes from 2 pm to 5 pm on a number of days, sometimes some students go over 5 pm. However, they wouldnt go that far pass because instructors do not look highly on it and reflect it in their marks for them. I dont remember waiting too often and actually have sneaked in to set up at 4:30 pm a few times. This may be because we have almost more than enough chairs for everyone 144 chairs total including the closed operatories (not all are available to students). Practice for 2nd year students is from 5 pm to 7 pm on Mondays. Going to 8 pm is not allowed actually because the dispensary people do not like staying any longer than they are paid to. I have observed them requesting the names of the people still present pass 7:30 (usually a few keeners) and have heard warnings that repeated overtimes will result in potential professionalism concerns. So actual school days are from 8 am to 7-something pm on Mondays. As for being on my feet all day, its not really true since most of the time is sitting in a chair. In fact, I do way more movement in 3rd year.
Now for third year, we start clinic at 8 am (not 7:30 am) which means you have to come in earlier to set up for patient care. Patients should be SEATED at 8 am so for some of us, ie. Me, I come in at 7:30 am to disinfect and set up. I know some people who like to come in at 7 am and some who like to come in at 7:45 am. Its really about how long it takes you to get ready. I get up at 6:15 am in the morning because I live far away from UBC. Some of my classmates get up at 5 am. However, there are some who get up 10 minutes before leaving because they live on campus. Hence, I encourage those who go to UBC to live in residence because I honestly miss sleep very much. =) Clinic should end by 5 pm so clean up should take no more than 20 minutes. Plus, the faster you do it, the quicker you can start practice. Some prefer to clean another operatory so they can start practice right away. They clean the patient-used one at 7 pm along with the practice one.
As for the long days, this is something you have to accept. I honestly dont know how else you can find time to practice other than during the evenings. I know some people practice to midnight at other schools though not regularly, but when needed. Practice is dependent on the individual if hand skills come naturally to you, you dont have to practice much at all. In fact, there are some people I have almost never seen in practice. In fact, the Coordinator of the third year operative course told us she was so good she never went to practice. If you are one of those people, kudos to you. I am not so I actually want more practice time than we are given.
As for Nice Smiles last comment that third year is no joke, hes underselling it. Its the toughest year overall (second year is the toughest academically). I keep thinking of my summer plans to help myself through it.
So should you choose UBC or somewhere else? Its not my concern. My only concern is that you find the school offers you what you want and fits you best. For some, location is everything. For others, cost is most important. The best thing to do is to learn as much as you can about each school and the environment you have to live in as you visit each school for interviews. Have your priorities straight and I hope that you will have the opportunity to make a choice on where you want to be. Note that that decision is not easy at all (I have been there).
Nice Smile, no hard feelings. I respect your decision and hope to have you as a Colleague one day.
http://www.premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25519&page=15
not sure if its okay for me to copy/paste their messages but here it is...
there are two arguments. Nice smile vs Adversary
after reading what Nice smile has to say...hm...
Originally Posted by Nice smile
Hellooo all UBC lovers..
I guess after all its time for you to really know what UBC is all about
and from someone who actually knows and tells the truth not someone who is in admission and post stuff to advise plp to go to ubc so ubc wont loose money again
I am from BC and i did my undergrad in UBC..and I can tell you one thing about this school.. its a freaking $ sign .. Specially its Dental school.
Like all you guys dentistry is my goal...and I always wanted to go to ubc dental until I found how disorganize this school is. My fiancé is in second year dental and my best friends are in 1st and 3rd year so you really should wonder why I didnt even apply to UBC.
Yeah Vancouver is beautiful and the clinic is greaaaat but is it really worth it to pay 200 grand for using that place for 2 years? As you know your classes are mixed with 260 medical students so technically you are invisible for 2 years unless you use the ugly bag they give you in first year.
So this how the program is:
1st year your classes are in LSC in ubc campus.. You have your pbl at 8-10 and then the usual medical classes go till 5pm with one-hour lunch break. you have pbl every mon/wed/Friday.. which means you have to be prepared every day and answer 6-8 questions every day, that is fine, after all you want to be a dentist.. now the funny thing is that you think you are on same boat with medical student.. but its NOT the case.. you always have 3-4 extra dent question which the throw in there just to make you fell youar doing some dent stuff. Soo when all med student are taking their break you have to bang your head to the wall and answer these question .not to mention that the med students also get free hours when you guys have your dent classes.
2nd year.. only gets more beautiful your term goes all the way from January to July.. you finish school in end of may and start the bootcamp a week after it..haha fun
2nd year classes are held in VGH (Vancouver general hospital) which is 20 min drive from UBC..you know why? Lool cuz 1) The dental school is to cheap to pay for classrooms 2) the med students have to be there since they have their family clinic there loool told you..you are invisible
so you will end up most of your time traveling from ubc to vgh.. you have your pbl and med class at 8-12 in vgh.. and then you have to use your lunch break to get to ubc for dent class at 1pm.. this is for most of the days some days you actually stay in vgh all day but again the good part is you have to pick up your note from your box in ubc.. since all the boxes in vgh are for MED students.. great haa?.. this is what I call organization.
You finally get to see the BEAUTIFUL clinic once a week.. when you learn some basic stuff..like measurements and putting rubber damp and .. but the problem is its not enough time to excel on it.. they teach you a new thing every Thursday and the exam you on it every month.. so what happens is they open the clinic for student on Mondays to practice.. but since the 3rd & 4th years are there and there is not enough room.. the 2nd years have to go from 6-8pm.. of course after you are done class in VGH and you have 40 min drive during rush hours to get to ubc.. isn it niceeee.. you are practically on your feet from 7am-9pm
And then finally you start your 3rd year and 4th year which you will be in ubc all day.. you start with realll patient at 7:30 am meaning that you have to be there at 6:30 (set up)-6 ( clean up) GOD knows how prepare you are.. most students have someone in there family who is a dentist soo they go shadow during their second year summer.. since 3rd year is nooo jookeee
GOOD LUCK ALL
Adversary:
I feel that I have to correct some inaccuracies in Nice Smile's post. Note that I genuinely believe he conveyed some accurate opinions and testimonies expressed by past and present dental students albeit some errors. However, keep in mine these are opinions I have heard both good and bad. I wont comment on them because I want to convey only information. Anything beyond you will have to assess for yourself.
Now for those who have been around long enough, you know I advocate choosing the school that fits you best. I have been pretty vocal about that. In fact, this is part of the reason why I joined the UBC Admissions Committee - I pushed for tours and more info sessions so that applicants like you can make a more informed choice, one I never truly had. For those who have been around, you would recall I started the very first UBC Dentistry tour with Q&A for applicants last year. I have never actively pushed applicants to go to UBC. Rather, I have only provided information.
As for the concern over UBC losing money, whether that happens or not is not my concern at all. My tuition and clinic fee was budgeted for all 4 years. It will not change beyond inflation. Any financial concerns will only be built into the budget for the incoming classes. Hence, it is no loss to me as an individual student.
In terms of costs yes, it is one of the most expensive dental schools if not the most. However, like all dental treatments, you know it in advance. For those who actually attended the openhouse, I was told that a full satisfactory explanation of the budget was given to you (none of the current students had that so you would know more than any of us). I wont comment on how the $$$$ affects my wallet, but I chose this school mainly because I have family here and they are important to me. I chose UBC over UWO because my family is priority. Like I said before, choose the school that fits you best I did based on my priorities. I advise you to do the same.
As for joining the 256 medical students, of which a sizable amount will be leaving after term 1 for Prince George and Victoria, I actually liked the crowd. It gave me a chance to know a number of medical students who I can rely on later in life. However, for others in my class who were chronic skippers, the sheer size sure gave them the opportunity to remain covert. Now I do not advocate this at all, but I know people who skipped 90 percent of the lectures in both first and second year. They are now suffering because they were so used to skipping and cannot now because there are only 50 of us (including the incoming 10 international students). Oh, and some of those who dis not skip wind up just sleeping in class. 256 heads really help mask those sleepers.
Most of what Nice Smile describes of first year is true albeit the color commentary (I leave that up to you to interpret) and minor errors. Yes, on MWF (not everyday), you start PBL sessions from 8 am to 10 am. I imagine the purpose is to prevent skipping since most of us would love to sleep in just a little more. With 8 people per group, you cant skip or come late without been noticed. Furthermore, the school is big on professionalism so it influences the way the system works.
Yes, there is always a list of learning objectives to research after every session except the Friday one (because the case finishes on Friday). After PBL, there are usually 2 1-hour lectures followed by 1 hour lunch at noon. The afternoon varies depending on the block (topic) you are studying. Tuesdays and Thursdays are usually histology labs, additional group sessions, etc. However, not all days end at 5 pm. There are usually half-days each week which are called independent studies. Back in my day, we had a whole day off during some weeks. However, the reality is if you want to look at it overall, you are going 8 am to 5 pm daily excluding the half-days.
Again, some corrections for second year. The year goes from the last week of August to the end of June. Whats so-called bootcamp is the month of June. However, please note that bootcamp is an outdated term it was used to describe the intense month when operative dentistry started. This changed during my year when they shifted operative dentistry back to January. Bootcamp was actually relaxing for my class. Also, were not the exception - U of A has a separated Dentistry bootcamp for both Year 1 and 2. Feel free to draw your own opinions on whether this is good or bad.
As for travel, yes, I will never forget those days of driving from Vancouver General Hospital to UBC. Without traffic, the drive from VGH to UBC is about 20 minutes (30 minutes when the traffic jam hits). You are not the only ones that have to do this med students do so as well, but not as frequent as we do. This is because all of us have to go back to UBC for anatomy and histology because the labs are located at the Life Science Centre (LSC). The reason for this travel is because these classes at VGH are medical curriculum classes and as a result, are built to make things easier for the Medicine Specialists who teach us, most who work at VGH, the central hospital of BC. Because you still have to attend dental classes, you have to go back to dental school which is at UBC. Hence, you travel more. As for the medical students, they have a better schedule because those courses were built to accommodate them, not really you. Thus, they have mail boxes in both the LSC (which the BC Government invested in for Health Care = Medicine, not Dentistry) and at VGH. The Medicine staff decided to place their materials there when they need because they have staff at both locations Dentistry does not. Now, heres the thing, you do get a box at VGH along with the one inside the dental school, but our staff is in the dental school so they decide to put your notes, etc in the dental school box. However, on a number of occasions due to short timing, they do make the trip out to help us out.
As for seeing the clinic, I am sure the first years on this forum can tell you they have started using it. It is a misconception that you dont enter the clinic until 3rd year. What you the applicant should differentiate and identify as important is when operative dentistry begins (drilling, hand skills, etc). At UBC, this begins in January of 2nd year. It used to be at the end of 2nd year during bootcamp. I am well aware that a number of schools start earlier than us, ie. UWO, etc. I suggest you speak to different students from different schools about how they feel about it.
Because my class was the first to start operative dentistry earlier, they had to modify the third year practice schedule which was basically 5 pm to 7 pm MTWTh. Practice time was prioritized for third years so Monday was the one given up for 2nd years. Because clinic time goes from 2 pm to 5 pm on a number of days, sometimes some students go over 5 pm. However, they wouldnt go that far pass because instructors do not look highly on it and reflect it in their marks for them. I dont remember waiting too often and actually have sneaked in to set up at 4:30 pm a few times. This may be because we have almost more than enough chairs for everyone 144 chairs total including the closed operatories (not all are available to students). Practice for 2nd year students is from 5 pm to 7 pm on Mondays. Going to 8 pm is not allowed actually because the dispensary people do not like staying any longer than they are paid to. I have observed them requesting the names of the people still present pass 7:30 (usually a few keeners) and have heard warnings that repeated overtimes will result in potential professionalism concerns. So actual school days are from 8 am to 7-something pm on Mondays. As for being on my feet all day, its not really true since most of the time is sitting in a chair. In fact, I do way more movement in 3rd year.
Now for third year, we start clinic at 8 am (not 7:30 am) which means you have to come in earlier to set up for patient care. Patients should be SEATED at 8 am so for some of us, ie. Me, I come in at 7:30 am to disinfect and set up. I know some people who like to come in at 7 am and some who like to come in at 7:45 am. Its really about how long it takes you to get ready. I get up at 6:15 am in the morning because I live far away from UBC. Some of my classmates get up at 5 am. However, there are some who get up 10 minutes before leaving because they live on campus. Hence, I encourage those who go to UBC to live in residence because I honestly miss sleep very much. =) Clinic should end by 5 pm so clean up should take no more than 20 minutes. Plus, the faster you do it, the quicker you can start practice. Some prefer to clean another operatory so they can start practice right away. They clean the patient-used one at 7 pm along with the practice one.
As for the long days, this is something you have to accept. I honestly dont know how else you can find time to practice other than during the evenings. I know some people practice to midnight at other schools though not regularly, but when needed. Practice is dependent on the individual if hand skills come naturally to you, you dont have to practice much at all. In fact, there are some people I have almost never seen in practice. In fact, the Coordinator of the third year operative course told us she was so good she never went to practice. If you are one of those people, kudos to you. I am not so I actually want more practice time than we are given.
As for Nice Smiles last comment that third year is no joke, hes underselling it. Its the toughest year overall (second year is the toughest academically). I keep thinking of my summer plans to help myself through it.
So should you choose UBC or somewhere else? Its not my concern. My only concern is that you find the school offers you what you want and fits you best. For some, location is everything. For others, cost is most important. The best thing to do is to learn as much as you can about each school and the environment you have to live in as you visit each school for interviews. Have your priorities straight and I hope that you will have the opportunity to make a choice on where you want to be. Note that that decision is not easy at all (I have been there).
Nice Smile, no hard feelings. I respect your decision and hope to have you as a Colleague one day.
